Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Divinokage]

I generally use it when I read a shield or a dodge. If he shields, it's pretty much shield stun unpunishable and if the dodges.. well he gets hit.. Other than that, I suppose sometimes I use it as a mindgame but you should only use it when you are close by, not far.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kage randomly throws out everything.

 

[-ACE-]

Nice set Kage. I've always enjoyed your matches with PKM, and I really like the extra tech skill that you've added to your game.

5:02 was a perfect opportunity for invincible ledgedrop uair to guarantee a KO. Very useful when you know Marth doesn't have his jump.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage randomly throws out everything.

=) That's what they all say.

Ya it took me a LONG time to figure out how to use tech skill properly to enable Ganon to have more advantage. I mean you just have to keep playing and practicing until you see new things you can do. I'm still trying to perfect stuff.

 

[spider_sense]

Hmm Kage is catching up in his tech skills.

Great set tho, this is definitely a great vid to show off how to edge guard Marth appropriately.

 

[XZalla]

This is the guy with the rep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxcqD5HwTvo

*Cringes at old video*
You didn't have any matches between us, Clue?

 

[-ACE-]

this is definitely a great vid to show off how to edge guard Marth appropriately.

...except for the fact that the set was over at 5:02 lol

 

[Divinokage]

There was a 3rd match but I guess it was too brutal to upload.. I took 9% and I 0-deathed him twice.. then he rage quit lol.

 

[CluelessBTD]

*Cringes at old video*
You didn't have any matches between us, Clue?

Unfortunately no, this is all I could find. Ronnie picked up Ganon...it makes me so mad, haha, he's already so good with him.

 

[DippnDots]

hey technical people, do you have to wiggle out of the air tumble animation to do an aerial? Does being in the air tumble animation have any effect on when the move comes out?

i guess what im asking is, faster to wiggle out of the animation then aerial or to just aerial out.

THANKS

 

[-ACE-]

uair out as soon as you're hit; in most situations you have enough time. uair only lasts 33 frames, a lot less than ganon's other aerials.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

wait so does wiggling only help with trying to upB then? cuz if it does get you out any faster at all, then it'd be useful for breaking up falco's pillars at a higher %...

and are any other ganons coming to HERB3? i'm really looking for some critique/advice here, and its tough for me to get any vids.

 

[Magus420]

Wiggling only helps if you want to airdodge, grapple, not have to tech, air catch an item (maybe?), and possibly something else I could be forgetting. If you can wiggle you are already out of hitstun though, and there aren't many things you can't already do while in tumble. If you wiggle out before doing something that you can normally do directly from tumble anyway it's just making it slower.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

thanks magus, i thought before that wiggling helped you use an aerial earlier
wish me luck at Nice Shot Hugs tournament =P

 

[DippnDots]

Thank youus

 

[Ballistics]

that dair shield poke is legit kage

 

[Divinokage]

Hm it's good stuff! If you learn how to space and time yourself perfectly then you can shield poke pretty much all the time with any aerial... I use it as mindgame to force a shield sometimes, there's simply no time to do anything on reaction when shield is up lol. It's a certain pressure that makes people uneasy when they fight me, it's like bluffing sort of as Linguini said earlier. Like they think I won't attack, but I still do lol.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if and when marth grabs you, what do you do?

at low percents, he seems to have a down throw to down throw guarunteed.
then once you hit 15% or so, he can uthrow to some utilts to some uairs
then once you're at like 70% or something, they finally get the fairs going, and then i know to DI away.

so is there DI to avoid those utilt combos and those shffl uair combos? cause if i get grabbed under 70%, i dont wanna wait till they start trying to ken combo me until i get out. cause even then theyre in an edgeguarding position, which will leave me trying to mindgame/tech something. just to get back.

thanks.

 

[RestInPeace]

DI Utilts back. It sends you the farthest away from him. His Dthrow -> Dthrows are dangerous. If you DI into him, you'll get re-grabbed. If you attempt to DI away and they catch on and Fthrow instead, you get owned even harder with a smash or combos.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i think i meant fthrow to fthrow at low enough percent. like...0-10. the dthrow goes behind and puts on the ground, and thats not what i meant; my bad

i'll try the utilts back DI. maybe it'll be enough to where that turnaround stuff doesn't work. it's so annoying.

still looking for any info on those uairs.

 

[RestInPeace]

Oh. Marth can Fthrow -> Fthrow -> Fthrow -> another grab. He can get 3 throws from 0%.

DI away for upairs? I'm not sure. I haven't played in almost two months.

 

[Divinokage]

What? No.. the 3rd one can definitely be DI. Remember to DI away and downwards for throws. Or else you risk getting F throw to downair.. and things like that lol.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah...i think if i'm close to the edge, i get fthrow dtilted a lot...and then i just get dtilted till i die.

i teched one at herb3 though. weirded me out. i didn't even know marths dtilt had enough hitstun to be techable haha.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Remember to DI away and downwards for throws. Or else you risk getting F throw to downair.. and things like that lol.

You can't DI throws downward. Or even upward for that matter.

But you are right about DI-ing away.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

so when a fox uthrows, height depends only on percentage, not DI at all? so you either go left right or center, but not low and left, low and right etc?

nuts. ive really been trying to purposely send myself higher by DIing up. it seemed to be working too...

 

[SiD]

Yes you can DI throws up....it's pretty obvious especially with for example mario's back throw

 

[Gardevior]

You can only DI in a direction that isn't the angle the throw is sending you or the opposite direction. So if hypothetical Fox Uthrow sends you at a 90 degree angle (straight up from the ground), you can't DI upward (90 degrees) or downward (270 degrees).

 

[Renth]

*ignore* .

 

[-ACE-]

You can only DI in a direction that isn't the angle the throw is sending you or the opposite direction. So if hypothetical Fox Uthrow sends you at a 90 degree angle (straight up from the ground), you can't DI upward (90 degrees) or downward (270 degrees).

This is correct.

 

[kupo15]

Just need some clarification. I thought I remembered a while back being told that ganon/falcon can do a double stomp combo where both hits act like stomps from the ground. So the first move is a stomp from the ground and you time the second dair so precisely at the moment they hit the floor that they bounce a second time instead of just lying on the floor.

I actually tested this out in training mode and was able to register the double ground stomp as a combo. My question is, this really can happen? Like, they can't tech to avoid the second stomp if you do it perfectly?

If so, I'm very confused as to how a perfect double stomp is untechable. I was able to pull off a double stomp>dsmash>charged usmash against fox in training mode for 71% on FD which killed. Of course there was no DI but that is pretty sweet though!

Perhaps Magus can explain why stomp to stomp combos in training.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Yeah that sounds right. I think I was just imagining Dthrows.

 

[-ACE-]

If so, I'm very confused as to how a perfect double stomp is untechable.

The hitbox of the 2nd stomp is in contact with your opponent throughout their landing frames, so during the time at which they could tech normally they are too busy getting stomped lol.

 

[Magus420]

Not sure I get what you guys are describing. Are you saying d-air someone on the ground, they get popped up in tumble, then as they touch the ground you connect another d-air that also pops them up and they can't tech inbetween? Stage collisions, and with it teching and its invincibility, is handled before getting hit so I would think it would whiff. If it hit the frame before that it should send downwards as they're still in the air. If they miss a tech yeah you can get an upward sending hit if you get it towards the end of the bounce, but that's obviously avoidable by not missing the tech in the 1st place.

 

[kupo15]

The hitbox of the 2nd stomp is in contact with your opponent throughout their landing frames, so during the time at which they could tech normally they are too busy getting stomped lol.

I guess I get it. Its just a little odd how both conditions (tech and stomp) require contact with the ground yet the stomp overrides tech in that instance. I wonder how many frames you have to do it. I would guess no more than 2. This is something I'm going to try and incorporate in my game. Double stomp combo into fair is sick or even Triple Kage special (stomp, stomp, dair)

Even if you time it slightly early, it might throw off the teching timing since you are doing it soo close to ground. That also means you should be able to stomp in this regard from anything, right? Dsmash to stomp, dthrow/uthrow (maybe depending on char) to stomp.

Cool stuff

EDIT: Didn't see you Magus

Not sure I get what you guys are describing. Are you saying d-air someone on the ground, they get popped up in tumble, then as they touch the ground you connect another d-air that also pops them up and they can't tech inbetween? Stage collisions, and with it teching and its invincibility, is handled before getting hit so I would think it would whiff. If it hit the frame before that it should send downwards as they're still in the air. If they miss a tech yeah you can get an upward sending hit if you get it towards the end of the bounce, but that's obviously avoidable by not missing the tech in the 1st place.

Yea, we are describing the same thing and I completely agree with what you said (and is exactly what I was thinking) which is why I am really confused as to why training mode considers it a consecutive hit. I know that training mode won't count something as a combo if you string moves through a missed tech however, I was able to consistently get training mode to recognize dair stomping someone on the ground to dair stomping someone on the ground as a combo. The timing is tight.

Try out Fox in training mode, 31% with a stale dair (stale from trying it so many times) I did the first Dair as close to the ground as possibly then the second dair was closer to the peak of his short hop with extended legs.

I have yet to test it with a friend trying to tech but Stomp>stomp combos in training mode and I have no idea why. And if its a combo in training mode, then that must mean that you can't tech the second stomp, right?

 

[Magus420]

Checked it. The tech goes through and the d-air whiffs, with and without port priority (just in case it mattered). It probably registers as a combo since you go directly from being in the air to being hit, and are never actually in the bounce for a frame for it to discount it as a combo.

 

[kupo15]

That's disappointing. Training mode lied.

 

[Divinokage]

Read the no tech =P

 

[kupo15]

Read the no tech =P

Lol yea, I was really looking forward for this to work. I registered a 5 hit combo using the double stomp in training mode, 70% and killed fox. I guess its too good to be true.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

so i just played with dr peepee for the last 3 hours (just got back), and his falco...is simply too good. and his everything else is too, but that falco...*sigh* even if i understand what he does, i still can't get out of anything.

-utilt combos
-dair shine due to missed techs or easy to react to techs on platforms
-dair -> utilt combos due to falling uair not coming out in time
- spaced dair so i can't tech all of them? what a pain...
-laser spacing so i can't jab him out of his laser approach
-goes to the ledge with up B to prevent traditional reaction edgeguarding

those were the main things i remember that i couldn't do anything about, it seemed. also against marth there was

-a wavedash behind me for a pivot grab that i couldn't work around
- from that grab, all the stuff i mentioned in another question
- fthrow -> dtilt off the stage when close to the edget

- all kinds of gay stuff afterwords/more dtilt/the forward b that spikes, shieldbreaker (neutral B). nair/bair
e

*his advice to me* - stay on platforms. ganon seems safer there. you guys' advice?

so yeah. i understand a lot of falco stuff, but is stuff like "avoid SH laser" work on players like pp?

 

[kupo15]

I would say make a conscious effort to PS every single laser. The timing for the laser really isn't that bad. Its a fairly easy projectile to powershield especially if you try to lock into the rhythm of the laser sfx (his jump, gun ****, fire)

I plan on asking HBK to smash sometime soon. He has a really nice falco. I remember the last time I played his falco, I was able to get hits in by picking up on his laser patterns and flat out dodge them through jumps and FFs. I would say based on your description that it might be a good idea to use bairs and maybe reverse uairs as an approach since its much faster than the fair and really disjointed.

If not, another idea might be to purposely trade hits at low %. Jump into a dair so you can pull off a uair and try to get something going.

What was his reasoning behind staying on platforms? If anything, I would think that ganon has a better chance staying grounded and lower.