spider_sense
Smash Champion
I kind of "second" Marth usually to kind of mess with the campy foxes/falco. Jigglypuff also seems easier with him too imo. I guess you can pick a secondary, but you should always go your main and learn the match up.
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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread
- Thread starter Linguini
- Start date
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
yeah, thats what i'm doing right now. i used to think marth, but sheik just feels so...easy.
ganon's better. and my ganon is getting better. i wanna get some vids soon, i've gotten a good bit better even since those last vids. i just started mentally pretending i was good. seems like a really odd tactic, but with that mindset i think "what would a good ganon do" which means i'm playing the matchup, CC jab-ing more, following techchases when i can, and attempting to space properly even more. it's...odd.
RestInPeace
Smash Ace
I just went to my first tournament, and I played with that mindset. I got second seed in my pool (though it was an easy pool). I used Ganon all the way.
I main Puff/Ganon. Puff takes care of the Fox/Falco matchup for me, since top-level Spacies destroy my Ganon. Puff's aerial mobility helps me get around the lasers/camping, as well as takes away the chance of being gimped very early on.
I main Puff/Ganon. Puff takes care of the Fox/Falco matchup for me, since top-level Spacies destroy my Ganon. Puff's aerial mobility helps me get around the lasers/camping, as well as takes away the chance of being gimped very early on.
Meme
Smash Journeyman
Recently... hmm.. well always I've had problems dealing with Marths, I think it's my hardest matchup in general... Lately I've been having problems both with the Approaching and defensive game...
Here's my most recent vid vs a Marth
Though mostly I've had problems approaching when playing an overly-defensive Marth... Any tips?
Here's my most recent vid vs a Marth
Though mostly I've had problems approaching when playing an overly-defensive Marth... Any tips?
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Lol I've gotten a bit better at the matchup, and I know how you feel trust me. But during your match I don't think I saw you throw a single bair when your back was turn to him. You also missed a lot of shield grab opportunities. Don't be afraid to grab Marth when he gets all fair happy and whatnot. Also CC to grab or dtilts work well against him dash attack and/or neutral airs. Remember to always use bairs as well as tilts to keep him spaced. If you're having trouble hitting Marth try spacing the bairs to hit his tiara. That's Marth's weakness because it pokes through his shield and he still takes the hit. Oh and DI AWAY!!!! I know it seems scary, but it stops Marth's approach and usually forces them to retreat, and they'll usually try to come back with a grab which you can anticipate and dair them if it's well timed. Additionally you can use side-b right when you feel they're going to shield grab you. However, you were very patient and were extremely careful when you were sent of the ledge. You also did some nice jabs that kept appropriate pressure, but try to go in for a grab if the Marth doesn't DI away from it. Once you grab him always make sure you dthrow to whatever, pending on his percent and DI.
Here's a few vids to watch for reference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQcly50Q_Jo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKISqEHMC_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6w1RYAJjeM
Dr. Hyde
Smash Ace
So yeah, kinda set melee down for a little (Mass Effect 2, Bayonetta, and now Bioshock 2 are flooding my time) but I'm gonna start practicing again and have a tournament on the 20th, WOOT Tampa, but I was just wondering how everyone got themselves into the tournament mindset?
I know I should play to have fun, but I'm not worried about having fun and it's not that I'm worried about winning. It's that I've been trying harder and harder to make sure everything I do looks like a combo video when I've been practicing with my friend. He's decent but its just that if I get a grab I am just structured to the point of well now I need to down throw and down smash since he'll miss a tech, F+B and regrab and etc.
The thing is have you ever been planning on landing moves for combos instead of looking for the right options.
Again it's not that I don't want to have fun, or that I don't enjoy winning, it's that I want to win with STYLE.
I know I should play to have fun, but I'm not worried about having fun and it's not that I'm worried about winning. It's that I've been trying harder and harder to make sure everything I do looks like a combo video when I've been practicing with my friend. He's decent but its just that if I get a grab I am just structured to the point of well now I need to down throw and down smash since he'll miss a tech, F+B and regrab and etc.
The thing is have you ever been planning on landing moves for combos instead of looking for the right options.
Again it's not that I don't want to have fun, or that I don't enjoy winning, it's that I want to win with STYLE.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I think it's good to look at each and every matchup as an entirely different game. Ganon's overall style is simplistic but you have to play each matchup quite differently, and never get sucked into "auto-pilot" mode, so to speak. I think that is one of the biggest things that separates Ganons who do consistently well in tournament and Ganons that tend to squander.
DippnDots
Feral Youth
Have to agree 100% with ya there ace, autopilot mode only works against people worse than you also autopiloting
Renth
Smash Hero
The proper term is sandbagging, only time i'm on auto-pilot is usually when i don't care.
Meme
Smash Journeyman
Nice tips Spider, though I'm starting to wonder, how do I CC-to-Grab attacks?
Do I have to use C-stick? or there are other methods?
All 3 vids were really nice matches, I took note on all of them...
Still I have to deal with my problems here, lol... Dealing with an overly passive marth (The previous video I posted was the one where he went more on the offensive D
.
Do I have to use C-stick? or there are other methods?
All 3 vids were really nice matches, I took note on all of them...
Still I have to deal with my problems here, lol... Dealing with an overly passive marth (The previous video I posted was the one where he went more on the offensive D
.Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
i guess you could call it that. but many people don't realize they're doing it. i usually think of sandbagging as putting forth effort to...not play your best. i just think of that auto-pilot as just assuming that spamming fair/bair, and the occasional side/down B will win matches. i feel like when i'm trying to win (therefore not sandbagging) with dumb tactics, i'm on autopilot. ACE is just saying that the good players who place well don't really use the dumb tactics in any given matchup unless they're purposely not caring.
so i guess you're right, once you're good (and you are a good ganon that places well, lol). since i seem more likely to go into dumb ganon mode than matchup mode (even when i'm trying to win lol), i'm a squandery ganon.
i'm working on that, lol.
edit: as for the passive marth, i'd say you just have to see if you can bait and counter. make him think he's got something, and then close the window with a move of your own. i'm sure the better ganons can be more specific though lol
SiD
Smash Master
That was nice in the first vid, edge hop waveland to dash attack
Sockless
Smash Rookie
what direction should throw fast fallers?
Linguini
Smash Master
Throw them down at low percents and techase .D throw to jab at mid percents is great and if they don't tech you can fair.At high percents if your uthrow and they di back or don't di you can fair/bair them. You can also d throw to ftilt which kills at high percents or sets up for an edgeguard at mid percents .Usually at mid/high percents I like to d-throw regrab a couple of times and then u throw to f smash or aerial.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
hey guys...thanks to you all, i got kinda good. met ACE yesterday (finally), and he's now a witness. thanks for answering my questions and working with me these last 5 months or so.
now that thats out of the way: how do you deal with ness? i lost one, then won on my counterpick (and then he went sheik and beat me...), but it felt like the main way i could even get hits at all was to empty jump grab, dthrow+ aerial. only time i had the advantage was when he was above me, but getting him on the platforms was quite a pain. edgeguarding wasn't a problem, but i really couldn't beat his fair. i heard somewhere that bair was supposed to work, but i guess i must have been spacing it wrong. any other ideas?
now that thats out of the way: how do you deal with ness? i lost one, then won on my counterpick (and then he went sheik and beat me...), but it felt like the main way i could even get hits at all was to empty jump grab, dthrow+ aerial. only time i had the advantage was when he was above me, but getting him on the platforms was quite a pain. edgeguarding wasn't a problem, but i really couldn't beat his fair. i heard somewhere that bair was supposed to work, but i guess i must have been spacing it wrong. any other ideas?
CluelessBTD
Smash Ace
Something amazing happened Friday night that may change the way I play this game. Victory is all about your mindset, you just have to convince yourself of certain things.
The best player around here is a fox main, and in the past 3 years I had only beaten his fox with ganon maybe 3 times. However, on Friday night, I doubled that number and got him to switch characters for the rest of the night.
Here's how I did it. I went into "autopilot" mode in a way. Against most people, I tend to over-analyze their game and spend too little time reacting. By thinking too much, I dulled my ability to react to what I was seeing. So my problem was that I was thinking too much. Sounds like that wouldn't be a problem, but it is. I had to let my hands do the thinking. After a few years of playing this game, my hands know more than I give them credit for.
So, I just stopped thinking consciously and let myself get absorbed. That way, I skip the middle man (conscious thought) and go straight from eyes to my hands. This countered his relentlessly aggressive style. Wish I recorded these matches...
Oh and also, I was drinking that night. Don't know if that played a role, haha.
The best player around here is a fox main, and in the past 3 years I had only beaten his fox with ganon maybe 3 times. However, on Friday night, I doubled that number and got him to switch characters for the rest of the night.
Here's how I did it. I went into "autopilot" mode in a way. Against most people, I tend to over-analyze their game and spend too little time reacting. By thinking too much, I dulled my ability to react to what I was seeing. So my problem was that I was thinking too much. Sounds like that wouldn't be a problem, but it is. I had to let my hands do the thinking. After a few years of playing this game, my hands know more than I give them credit for.
So, I just stopped thinking consciously and let myself get absorbed. That way, I skip the middle man (conscious thought) and go straight from eyes to my hands. This countered his relentlessly aggressive style. Wish I recorded these matches...
Oh and also, I was drinking that night. Don't know if that played a role, haha.
RestInPeace
Smash Ace
So you're advising that, at least against an aggressive Fox, we should stop trying to think of cunning ways to overcome the aggression, and just react according to what he does? This way we do more of reacting than predicting, which isn't as accurate.
CluelessBTD
Smash Ace
Sorta. By thinking too much, I couldn't react fast enough to get any good techchases. Instead I let my intuition guide me. Rather that waiting for that voice that says, "I think he'll tech left, I should run that way and Dair," I just did it. It's like my hands knew what they were doing.
Basically, I sucked at techchasing and now I'm better. I've always had the skill just didn't know how to use it.
Basically, I sucked at techchasing and now I'm better. I've always had the skill just didn't know how to use it.
DippnDots
Feral Youth
Tip I have on tech chasing is constantly switch up what move you're using to do it. Keep in mind that the person teching, if they're smart, is going to be watching your character. If they see you going for the same attack over and over it's going to be a lot easier for them to predict where you're going to end up at the end of their tech just by watching the way you set it up.
Dorsey
Banned via Warnings
@Chris
Ness's fair has ridiculous 'aerial priority'(if there was such a thing...). It comes out instantly then lasts for a long time. A ness that's spacing this move around ganon's lagged aerials can be tough, and his floatiness/weirdness allows him to space away from your grab after approaching with the fair as well. That being said, you have to play a similar strategy v. ness as well. Make ness try to approach and try not to hit his sheild so much. Focus on outspacing that fair.
I played Chris's ganon this weekend, it has gotten much better. Good stuff dude.
Ness's fair has ridiculous 'aerial priority'(if there was such a thing...). It comes out instantly then lasts for a long time. A ness that's spacing this move around ganon's lagged aerials can be tough, and his floatiness/weirdness allows him to space away from your grab after approaching with the fair as well. That being said, you have to play a similar strategy v. ness as well. Make ness try to approach and try not to hit his sheild so much. Focus on outspacing that fair.
I played Chris's ganon this weekend, it has gotten much better. Good stuff dude.
Lol, Clue it sounds like you've come up with Mango's check and checkers theory more or less. While it does help you deal with really aggressive people, smarter players will give me more trouble this way. I don't think you should permanently change your style, but it can help you beat people whose style of play you have trouble with. Try it against a bunch of players and see what general playstyles it helps you answer. I think using a mix between the two is going to make you much better, as long as you use each at the right time.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Adapt or Die!
Well whatever happens in a match, there is always something you can do to defend yourself/counter-attack.. you just have to see it coming on reaction.
I've noticed Top SF 4 players do EVERYTHING on reaction to counter whatever you try to do. I mean I am in the montreal SF 4 scene and our top players are really really good so.. ya when I play vs them, the way they space and pressure you, and counter-attack you is out of this world. It's relatively the same in smash, whatever happens, you gotta make sure you have everything down first, technical, spacing.. and then it's just a matter of prediction and do things on reaction.
If you've noticed Armada, Hbox are probably the 2 best players I've seen that do EVERYTHING on reaction.
Well whatever happens in a match, there is always something you can do to defend yourself/counter-attack.. you just have to see it coming on reaction.
I've noticed Top SF 4 players do EVERYTHING on reaction to counter whatever you try to do. I mean I am in the montreal SF 4 scene and our top players are really really good so.. ya when I play vs them, the way they space and pressure you, and counter-attack you is out of this world. It's relatively the same in smash, whatever happens, you gotta make sure you have everything down first, technical, spacing.. and then it's just a matter of prediction and do things on reaction.
If you've noticed Armada, Hbox are probably the 2 best players I've seen that do EVERYTHING on reaction.
scorekid100
Smash Apprentice
Yeah hbox constantly bairs on reaction. I don't know ho he does it
YOSHIDO
Smash Ace
Wow thanks for summing that up. I've been messing around with ganon. I like his style. And I like the term winnable. Even though it might be work. He CAN win the match. I love yoshi to death. But it's pretty much impossible for yoshi to win against a some high tiers. Aka Fox, sheik, Falco, Questionable about Peach. They just has to many options while yoshi has none besides down tilt, and DDJC up airs. My secondary is still Falco. but I like the mortality of Ganon, he can actually take a couple of hits.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
yeah my only adjustment was to fake the fair and just...run up and grab you lol. which of course indirectly gave me free aerials, and thanks to yoshi's story, gave me edgeguards. thanks for the advice though, i'll be sure to put it in action, especially if you make it out to herb 3.
Renth
Smash Hero
Play him sometime lolYeah hbox constantly bairs on reaction. I don't know ho he does it
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Lol Guaranteed that any Peach,Sheik or Marth that you play on Yoshi's will hate it. But yeah it's definitely a lot of work with Ganon. I've been maining him for 2 1/2 years and still have trouble vs top tiers. (part of it is because lack of tourney exp) You have to be extremely good at baiting and exploiting predictability.
@ Chris - CC - 90% - Bair - Ledge grab = GG.
Dorsey
Banned via Warnings
Any sheik that hates yoshi's against ganon needs to re-evaluate the match-up and how to use that stage in it........big time. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you said though..
spider_sense
Smash Champion
lol Nah as crazy as it sounds, it's harder for sheik to camp ledges and since it's a smaller stage for Ganon to bair and kill her.
Dr. Hyde
Smash Ace
I hope I can this weekend! Hbox had better come to Tampa!
Hope my thumb is better by then, rock climbing @#$%'d it up so I can't do my wavelands though I'll try again tomorrow. It has been forever since I've been to a tournament.
Sasha
Smash Journeyman
Dude. Rock climbing is like the anti-smash. I can't tell you how many times I've regretted rock climbing the day before a tournament.
Rock climbing > Melee.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Ganondorf could **** Mango after climbing Mt Everest.
Linguini
Smash Master
this weekend is noob1 in orlando. me,colbol,shiz,hbox will all be there, **** tampa lol
spider_sense
Smash Champion
Guini how you getting there? Is there a spot available?
Dr. Hyde
Smash Ace
haha don't worry I know the big guys like you are in Orlando, I'd like my first tournament in a while to be one for fun where I might place, lol, well actually one where I can try and see who all is around the area. And Tampa is a lot closer for me that Orlando.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
You guys in FL are having many tournaments, I'm jealous.
Renth
Smash Hero
Tampa sucks, I was also going this weekend but I have to watch the baby - johns.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
sup guini. i just watched the first few matches of your matches vs hbox at FIU. i was wondering if you had any more advice on that matchup. heres what i picked out from the vids
lots of bairs to keep jiggs away
when he got close, stay in shield do avoid any oddly timed attacks (like the fsmash)
after shielding the awkward fsmash, grab to bair/uair (i saw you try a fair once, and it almost worked...)
always try to recover low cause it keeps some of the bair bs offstage to a minimum, plus allows for teching possibility
DI...down and away from combo's when they do occur?
uair oos is useful for missed pounds against shields...
anything else? NC doesn't really have any great puffs, but it'll be an important matchup in time, i figure.
lots of bairs to keep jiggs away
when he got close, stay in shield do avoid any oddly timed attacks (like the fsmash)
after shielding the awkward fsmash, grab to bair/uair (i saw you try a fair once, and it almost worked...)
always try to recover low cause it keeps some of the bair bs offstage to a minimum, plus allows for teching possibility
DI...down and away from combo's when they do occur?
uair oos is useful for missed pounds against shields...
anything else? NC doesn't really have any great puffs, but it'll be an important matchup in time, i figure.
Ballistics
Smash Champion
wow emilio this is quite a project you have going on here, i want to ask a serious ganon question, when are you supposed to fastfall aerials with him and when are you NOT supposed to fastfall aerials
I don't think recovering low is as important as getting to the stage side of puff. She can realistically gimp you no matter where you're at, but Linguini had success getting close to the stage because it allows techs, and thus an actual recovery.
I also picked up that HBox was having problems because he was trying to go in and out with aerials. Linguini just avoided one and landed a back air while HBox was DIing away, which kills Jiggs at stupid low percents. HBox then started moving in farther when Ganon could back air and he was in kill range (like over 55% or so). He also figured out he could duck grabs too, so you want to be careful with shield grabbing since Jiggs can just hit your shield and crouch.
Linguini, I didn't see any up-angled FTilts. Just out of curiosity, why?