.:How to Murder Stuff:. A Guide to the 'Dorf'

[Z1GMA]

Doesn't it inflict 22.5% damage?

Nope'eli dope'eli .

22% Training mode; 23% in match.

 

[Noobicidal]

I can't remember the actual number, but there's a damage multiplier on moves used outside of training mode. It's 1.05, 1.1, or something in that range.

So in theory, Dair does BOTH 22 and 23 damage.

 

[Z1GMA]

I can't remember the actual number, but there's a damage multiplier on moves used outside of training mode. It's 1.05, 1.1, or something in that range.

Yeah, it's 1.05 for sure, since 1.05 = +5%

22 x 1.05 = 23.1 :nerd:

Though I don't know if it deals exactly 22.0% in training mode.
It might be 21.9 or 22.1 ;\

 

[Noobicidal]

Yeah, it's 1.05 for sure, since 1,05 = +5% :nerd:

i dun liek maff.

Thanks for clearing that up though.

 

[weinner]

Though I don't know if it deals exactly 22.0% in training mode.
It might be 21.9 or 22.1 ;\

I tested this by stomping King D3 on a custom stage with a ceiling and a floor in training mode. King D3 is shot directly upward when stomped and then stage spiked back down so I stomp King D3 ad infinitum. Here are the results

Stomp #1: 22% (+22%)
Stomp #2: 44% (+22%)
Stomp #3: 66% (+22%)
Stomp #4: 88% (+22%)
Stomp #5: 110% (+22%)
Stomp #6: 132% (+22%)
Stomp #7: 154% (+22%)
Stomp #8: 176% (+22%)
Stomp #9: 198% (+22%)
Stomp #10: 220% (+22%)

Here are the results in the same situation, in a group brawl rather than training mode and I KO'd myself to fresh the stomp.

Stomp #1: 23% (+23%)
Stomp #2: 46% (+23%)
Stomp #3: 69% (+23%)
Stomp #4: 92% (+23%)
Stomp #5: 115% (+23%)
Stomp #6: 138% (+23%)
Stomp #7: 161% (+23%)
Stomp #8: 184% (+23%)
Stomp #9: 207% (+23%)
Stomp #10: 231%! (+24%!)

Finding the last of the stomps more damaging than the rest, I decided to go a little further with the stomps.
Here are those results.

Stomp #11: 254% (+23%)
Stomp #12: 277% (+23%)
Stomp #13: 300% (+23%)
Stomp #14: 323% (+23%)
Stomp #15: 346% (+23%)
Stomp #16: 369% (+23%)
Stomp #17: 392% (+23%)
Stomp #18: 415% (+23%)
Stomp #19: 438% (+23%)
Stomp #20: 462%! (+24%!)

The game probably does not round up and instead adds the decimals until it adds up to 1 and then carries it over. So, my conclusion is, the stomp does 23.1% which is 105% the training mode value of 22%

Also, a fully charged F-Smash in training mode will do about 33.3% where as in a group brawl, it does 35% damage. 35/1.05 is about 33.3%. Training mode also does the traditional "X>0.5 round up situation" as shown where 1 charged F-Smash=33%, 2=67% and 3=100% when it would be 1=33(.3)%, 2=66(.6)% and 3=99(.9)%.

BTW: i liek maff! :nerd:

 

[Squirrely]

Very well put together and presented.

Although it doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things or even in the medium scheme of things, I found it interesting, if only for a second.

Well played.

 

[Z1GMA]

Nice testing Weinner.

So it seems that if an attack deals exactly 19.9% damage, the damage counter still shows 19% and doesn't round it off to the closest (20%) solid procent?

 

[weinner]

That does appears so. If it did, then the first sign of change would be the 5th Stomp w/ 115.5% damage. It would show as 116% and then the damage would add up, Stomp #6 w/ 138.6% and show up as 139%. So on until #10 when it will show as 231% and the real damage is 231% as well.

We as a community should make a topic to find the true damage of Ganondorf's attacks. :nerd:

In fact, I shall start the topic right now.

 

[LordofDarkness]

Very nicely done weinner! I'm glad to have an answer to this riddle. /applaud

 

[weinner]

Thank you very much LordofDarkness.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

This Guide is amazing and Helpful to understand the Ganondorf Laws.

Good Job Swoops !

 

[Link O maC]

i actually do a lot of that tech **** already but great guide regardless

 

[Conspiricy]

hmm...I think more info on the wizkick, such as the wizkick, knock opponent offstage, end kick offstage, jump stomp. Stuuf like that.

 

[Zhouten]

Very nice Guide. I had my own but.... nothing compared to this. But about Ganon's recovery, I found just one use for it. It doesn't always work but.... when your opponent is very high in the air, after being attacked, or maybe like Snake, just recovering, then you can hit them with Ganon's uppercut and it actually kills at pretty low %'s since they're so close to the edge of the stage boundaries. The good thing about it, most people wouldn't expect a Ganon to be good in the 1st place, so it's very unexpected and usually will get you a few kills off a person if you time it right.

 

[Marthos]

Thanks a lot! You've inspired me to play Ganon more. Excellent work.

 

[Swoops]

BOO!​

Alright, a bump and a new update. Sorry to everybody for the leaving the boards for a while...a long while. Truth be told, I wanted to come back for a while with a big showy discovery to cover for my absence, but honestly...I got nothing. Not even new applications for moves. But, I have polished the guide a bit, added in a bit more for the awesomeness of n-air, and I included an OoS section. Also got z1gman comboing up, as well as updated match ups.

Now, I really haven't come back to play Brawl all that much >.>. A lot of my return has to do with my huge interest in Brawl+, which I've been playing and is a hell of a lot of fun. Really, in my absence I back into SFIV and tekken and the like, games which I used to and still play a lot of. To be honest after playing those games which embrace a competitive nature and try to be balanced, Brawl ends up being not so fun in comparison. A lot of energy is drained in playing a game that was purposely meant to slap competitive players in the face, especially with 10:90 - 0:100 match ups. But, I'm whining and digressing ><.

Anyways, I'm still going to be around the Ganon boards, no doubt about it. I'll try to help out and update any good stuff that I come across. But I'm not going to be around as much as I was. I'll be like Jekyll...except a bit more present...and updating a guide...and white.

Oh, and how's it going PhantomX? I haven't really been here to say hi

 

[PhantomX]

It's been going pretty well. Ganons are pretty sparse but they're generally pretty cool. 2/3 of the new threads made in these boards kinda suck though

This game is competitive... it just has some terrible characters (as many fighting series do [loldanhibiki]), and unfortunately this manly beast is one of those.

 

[Moblin]

Actually I agree with swoops in that this game WAS made to be a competitor's nightmare, but due to the already existing melee scene that had sprouted up, Brawl was pushed to be like his big brother. Unfortunately, it looks like Sakurai added an extra chromosome at the end of Brawl. So although Brawl can be competitive, all the other games that were made with competition in mind, like you mentioned, will be far ahead in those terms. It's just how it is. Which is why in addition to Brawl, I've started picking up melee and BlazBlue as well. No offense meant towards the Brawl community, it's just how I see it.


It's great to see you back Swoops. And we already found that game-breaking AT that you were looking for: See, when you jump and then immediately buffer a down B...

 

[Swoops]

I wasn't really saying Brawl isn't competitive. Any game really, if people decide to take it and play it competitively, is competitive. I was just saying during Brawl's creation, a completely anti-competitive mindset was taken, meaning balance wasn't really the goal in mind and neither was pleasing the competitive crowd, "fun for all" was the goal. I just feel like that mindset still has its influence on brawl.

Most fighting games don't generally have so many one sided match ups...or any 0:100 match ups for that matter. The difference between Dan and Ganon is that Dan was always intended to be a joke character that no one would take seriously.

Lol, welcome to the Ganon boards. I think the reason a lot of us happen to be more chill is because 2 of 3 threads suck. If we took everything seriously...I think we'd all have aneurysms. After we became serial killers of course. Well, just kosk would be a serial killer...

Moblin: Nooooo....it burrrrns ussss

 

[Big O]

When I look at the Melee match-up chart I see way more 0-100 and otherwise lol match-ups than the Brawl one. Just comparing the match-up numbers Brawl seems way more balanced than Melee. Especially when you take into consideration that Brawl has more than 1.5 times as many characters and way more match-ups I never understood why people say Melee was more balanced. I can understand someone saying Melee is more competitive though.

ST had some really stupid match-ups but that game is widely considered to be a competitive fighting game. Fighting games tend to have at least few hopeless match-ups.

Lol I guess this has been pretty off-topic so far. Welcome back Swoops.

 

[PhantomX]

Smash Bros. series has never been competitively geared, but they're still competitive games. 64 is broken beyond repair, Melee has way more terrible matchups than this one does (but no tripping, or far better character XD). The only thing they really took out was guaranteed combos, which doesn't make the game any less competitive, it just gears it towards a different group of competitive players, those who are thinkers over those with quick fingers.

 

[Big O]

Way too many people equate having more combos with being more balanced and competitive.

 

[Swoops]

Lol, I actually completely agree with the Melee comment, I don't think melee is really anywhere near more balanced in brawl. I think all of the smash games are pretty unbalanced, that doesn't mean I don't think they can't be competitive, they just don't strive to be balanced. People equate combos with more balanced and competitive because they feel there's more to learn. You feel like you're doing bigger things and expanding knowledge, when really you're only expanding one technical aspect of the game.

But yea, way off topic. I had a feeling that would happen after my post lol.

Back to the topic.

So...whaddya think about that Ganon?

 

[Koskinator]

swooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooops

smileyface

<33333

 

[PhantomX]

Ganon is a terrible character, but he's ****ing awesome so it doesn't matter to me.

I wish I could find some reason to CP him in tournament aside from embarrassment purposes, lol.

 

[Big O]

I miss Ganon's side b going through projectiles. Lol I think just that one change would make him awesome vs annoying projectile spammers. I love playing as Ganon despite some of his more depressing flaws. Getting attacked out of his up b makes me a sad panda

 

[Swoops]

swooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooops

smileyface

<33333

Lol, I'd expect you'd actually be pissed to see me kosk, seeing as how I skipped out on that mm .

But I love you too koskinator.

Embarrassment purposes is usually the reason. Also, if your testosterone is feeling particularly high that day...and proving to everyone in the tournament that your opponent, truly has no balls.

 

[weinner]

Hey Swoops, I just read in the guide that you need information on decayed moves.

Well, I just finished a full list of Ganondorf's Moves when decayed. What a coincidince. :-). I'll post it tomorrow.

Also all the damages you have in this guide are simply the training mode damages. The damages in a real match are 1.05% the training mode value and the charged damage is 1.4% the uncharged smash and the training mode value is applied. (as an example, U-smash does 19% in training mode uncharged and not at the sweetspot, in a regular match that would be 19.95% and that value is 1.4% when fully charged and that is 27.93%). I'll post that right now. :-D

Standard Ground Attacks and Tilts

Jab

7.35% (9.45% tipped)

F-Tilt

13.65%

D-Tilt

12.6%

U-Tilt

27.3% (19.95% if it connects at the explosion)

Dash Attack

15.75% (10.5% left-over hitbox)

Smash Attacks

F-Smash

25.2% (35.28% charged)

U-Smash

19.95% (26.25% charged)

Sweetspot

23.1% (32.34% charged)

D-Smash

19.95% (27.93% charged)

First Hit

5.25% (7.35% charged)

Second Hit

14.7% (20.58% charged)

Other Ground Attacks

Ledge Attack (both variations)

10.5%

Trip Attack

6.3%

Floor Attack

6.3%

Aerials

Nair

18.9%

First

11.55%

Second

7.35%

Fair

15.75%

Sweetspot

17.85%

Bair

16.8%

Dair

23.1%

Sourspot (at his chest)

17.85%

Uair

13.65%

Tipman (ending frames)

6.3%

Throws and Pummel

Pummel

2.1%

F-throw

13.65%

B-Throw

10.5%

D-Throw

7.35%

U-Throw

7.35%

Special Attacks

Warlock Punch

33.6%

Reverse Warlock Punch

36.75%

Aerial Warlock Punch

37.8%

Reverse Aerial Warlock Punch

39.9%

Gerudo

9.45%

Aerudo

12.6%

Wizkick

12.6% initial

10.5% rest of the hit box

Aerial Wizkick

15.75% initial

14.7% rest of the hitbox

Quake

8.4%

Dark Dive

11.55%

Dark Uppercut

7.35%

Formula

The formula to get these percentages is

training mode base damage x 1.05

Amazing Ampharos and ColinJF came up with the formula. I just crunched some numbers to get the percentages. Thanks guys.

Their topic is here in this link.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557

 

[Big O]

I just noticed there is no changelog for 7/22/09. What got changed (besides me getting credit in the guide:bigthumbu)

 

[Swoops]

Weinner: D*mn, nice data, thanks. I'll be sure to add that in tomorrow. As for now, I'm beat >>, but I'm definitely looking forward to that stale moves data.

I just noticed there is no changelog for 7/22/09. What got changed (besides me getting credit in the guide:bigthumbu)

>.< lol, that changelog that's up now is supposed to be 7/22/09. For some reason it has a different date. I'll change it really quick.

EDIT: Lol, went ahead and added the damage info anyway >>

 

[ZitchX]

Ganondorf is pwn...

Poor match-ups

 

[weinner]

Here is the list of all the percentages of Ganon's moves when decayed that I promised you Swoops.




I did not feel like puting the names of the moves so I just put the damages. Here is what each damage represents.

2%=Pummel
5%=Dsmash (first hit), Nair (sex kick at the end of the second kick)
6%=Uair (ending frames) and Get-up attacks (both variations)
7%=Jab, Dark Uppercut, Uthrow, Dthrow, Nair (second hit) and Dsmash (first hit, fully charged)
8%=Murder Quake
9%=Gerudo and Jab (sweetspoted)
10%=Dash Attack (sourspoted), Ledge attacks (both variations), Bthrow and Wizkick (noninitial hit box, grounded)
11%=Nair (first hit) and Dark Dive
12%=Aerudo, Wizkick (initial hit box, grounded) and Dtilt
13%=Ftilt, Uair (initial) and Fthrow
14%=Dsmash (second hit) and Wizkick (noninitial hitbox, aerial).
15%=Dash Attack, Fair and Wizkick (initial hitbox, aerial)
16%=Bair
17%=Fair (sweetspot), Dair (sourspoted)
19%=Usmash, Utilt (sourspotted)
19.6%=Dsmash (second hit, charged)
22%=Dair, Usmash (sweetspoted)
24%=Fsmash
26.6%=Usmash (charged)
30.8%=Usmash (sweetspoted, charged)
32%=Warlock Punch
33.6%=Fsmash (charged)
35%=Warlock Punch (reverse)
36%=Warlock Punch (aerial)
38%=Warlock Punch (aerial, reverse)

The stale move queue goes by training mode values instead of the VS. mode value.

The formula to get all these percentages is here

The left of the diagram represents the most recent move to be added to the queue, and the far right represents the oldest move to the added to the queue. Then we have

stale multiplier = 1 – s

where s is the sum of the values of the positions in the queue occupied by the move being used. For example, if the move being used occupies the .1 position, the .06 position, and the .03 position, then the stale multiplier is 1 - (0.1 + 0.06 + 0.03) = 0.81.

Colin and Amazing Ampharos

ColinJF and Amazing Ampharos are just awesome. All I did was crunch some numbers to get the percentages. :-).

 

[Z1GMA]

Oh, happy day. Swoops's back!

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Swoops listen up.

Can I put some Ideas for Dsmash here ?

When I get Finish my Clues for Dsmash I will let you know.


"One of my least used Ganon moves."
"Give me something the d-smash can do and I can probably name you something that does it better, and gives you a better reward."

I will try to do my Best.

 

[Swoops]

Swoops listen up.

Can I put some Ideas for Dsmash here ?

When I get Finish my Clues for Dsmash I will let you know.


"One of my least used Ganon moves."
"Give me something the d-smash can do and I can probably name you something that does it better, and gives you a better reward."

I will try to do my Best.

You can go ahead try . I'll try my best not to be too cynical and not shoot things down immediately.

The thing is, the move doesn't even work like it's supposed to half of the time...not to mention it's 45 frames of lag from the first hit and the unnecessary 25 frames of lag from the second one. Doesn't KO well, and it doesn't give you much follow up options. The only thing I can think of is sending them over the edge when your back is facing it. Also, maybe throwing it out after a stomp for a combo, but even that only works half of the time due to d-smashes inconsistency and wonky first hit. That was a bit cynical, huh?

weinner: I probably won't put up every single decayed damage, so I don't clutter up the guide and drive newbies away. I'll probably put up the rock bottom damage, and then a general decay rate.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You can go ahead try . I'll try my best not to be too cynical and not shoot things down immediately.

The thing is, the move doesn't even work like it's supposed to half of the time...not to mention it's 45 frames of lag from the first hit and the unnecessary 25 frames of lag from the second one. Doesn't KO well, and it doesn't give you much follow up options. The only thing I can think of is sending them over the edge when your back is facing it. Also, maybe throwing it out after a stomp for a combo, but even that only works half of the time due to d-smashes inconsistency and wonky first hit. That was a bit cynical, huh?

weinner: I probably won't put up every single decayed damage, so I don't clutter up the guide and drive newbies away. I'll probably put up the rock bottom damage, and then a general decay rate.

Yeah, those are basically the only uses you could get out of DSmash. There's also gerudo > dsmash against Olimar. Nothing else besides that. You'd expect a move with this much lag to kill early, but no, it can't even do that. Instead, it doesn't kill at all.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Swoops, I will tell a little bit about my Purposes for Dsmash.

My Focus is the Second Hit of Dsmash for Mindgames. I'm not working on the First Hit.

I'm not seeking follows-ups for Dsmash.

Can you understand me ?


Honestly... I Love Ganon's Dsmash.

 

[Z1GMA]

The first hit of Dsmash can either be very lame, OR awesome!

It happens to be awesome Vs Snake (0% Snake)
Dthrow -> Buffered Dsmash -> anything (Likely Fsmash)

I know this sounds stupid, but give it a try.
Both hits of Dsmash juggles REALLY well after the Dthrow, for some odd reason.

I don'tknow if the combo works on more chars than just Snake. Maybe Bowser or D3.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

The first hit of Dsmash can either be very lame, OR awesome!

It happens to be awesome Vs Snake (0% Snake)
Dthrow -> Buffered Dsmash -> anything (Likely Fsmash)

I know this sounds stupid, but give it a try.
Both hits of Dsmash juggles REALLY well after the Dthrow, for some odd reason.

I don'tknow if the combo works on more chars than just Snake. Maybe Bowser or D3.

I will try this combo.

Dthrow -> Buffered Dsmash -> anything (Likely Fsmash)

Let me explain more, the first hit of Dsmash don't make part of my plans.
Cause, if I use everytime the "Normal Dsmash" (First Hit and Second Hit), my opponent always will be able to perform a Air Dodge after the first hit. Agree ?

Can you understand now ?


I need more time to test this Mindgame in Offline Battles. I will make the possible and impossible to post here the situations.

I will not make videos, cause I don't have my stuff to record. But I will explain everything and all of you should test.

One question,
The Second Hit has Less or More Lag than the First Hit ?

 

[Z1GMA]

One question,
The Second Hit has Less or More Lag than the First Hit ?

The first hit has no lag (Cooldown)
Plus, It doesn't matter since you can't really choose which of 'em to use first.

More importantly... You SHOULD make vidoes instead, since your english is weird.

btw, did you make a vid of that "Choke Pressure"-thingy, you mentioned?