• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

.:How to Murder Stuff:. A Guide to the 'Dorf'

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
.:How to Murder Stuff:. A Guide to the 'Dorf

How to Murder Stuff
A Guide to the 'Dorf by Swoops
Updates

2/11/10: Updated my guide with the GPSG! Ahem, The Ganondorf Punishment/Safety Guide, to be more exact. This is a list of what advantages certain Ganondorf techniques can punish. Kinda just hit me that I wanted to do it, so here it is. I also added just a short new part to b-air. As always, give me opinions!

8/27/09: Just a small update. Polished a a lot of little things and I centered all of the moves section, I think it looks better. Did all of the decay stuff. Please let me know if you think it's too cluttered, because I'm not sure myself. Also, added a section to f-air with my previous thoughts. For the meantime, I'm going to work on some more beneficial stuff like dashdancing so I can work it into my guide later.

7/22/09: SURPRISE! Yup, that’s right, I’m back and better than ever. Well…not sure if better but I will try to be back when I can be. At the very least, not leave you guys hanging for so long. I’m making sure my return comes with at least a small sized bang, like a firecracker. I’ve added a small new section to defense, Out of Shield (OoS), trying to include some of the things that I have talked about before. I have added some interesting n-air stuff that I use, more specifically its OoS use and edgeguarding, that info is both in the OoS section and the n-air section. I’ve also added zigman comboing, and I’ve tried to polish the guide a bit, as well as updating all match ups. Honestly, my presence here in the boards will definitely be more refined and pulled back, but I’m certainly not going disappear without notice. Oh…and hi PhantomX! It’s nice to see we now have a mod who cares.

1/7/09: A DAD update :p. I updated the couple of things from the DSL because I think they are awesome as hell and need to be put in here. Put the Ledge jump>iDJ into recovering section, then I put buffered dash canceling into the tech section and a bit into the movement section. I also finally put some more credits in here >.>.

1/03/09: Breaking in 2009 by trying to make sure my guide is still the bee's knees. I know I haven't been around much at all, busy with secretive stuff, but I got some goodies up. Well...mostly it's just the guide returning to glory. Pretty much everything is back where it started, plus some grab release options. Added a bit on the end of strings and some supa hopz. I plan on doing a very sexy section called "Controlling the Stage" very soon, so keep an eye out.

11/01/08: An U-Air update. I added info on U-Air in it's regular section in aerials, and in approach and defense. I also added Sliq's aerial rave info at the end of the aerial section. Tells what characters can get hit by what on the ground...by aerials of course.

10/26/08: New pseudo-combo section called Strings! Go check it out as I suspect it'll be very helpful in the future. Also added info about the Quake to hopefully kill some of those threads...maybe not.

10/22/08: New C-Stick vs A-Stick section, slight update to Gerudo (in special moves section), and added hypers Wizkick Cancel 2 vid. I'm going to bold and underline each section in the contents that is new or has new info in it. So check this update log and the contents to see if anything is new!

10/20/08: Stage Section Update, an update to F-Air, Edgeguarding, and Recovery. I also put cool monkeys next to Gerudo...don't you dare question me. Oh, I also put this up here because, well it makes more sense.

10/19/08 6:02: Put in a system to wade through all of this, have no idea why I didn't put it in in the first place. Added one word in the title and put a little posty pic thing next to it. What? I want to draw people's attention >.>.

10/19/08: I release teh guide

Contents

I. Intro
II. Ganondorf at a Glance
III. Terms
IV. Move List

Basics [IVBAS]
Tilts [IVTLT]
Smashes [IVSMSH]
Aerials [IVAER]
Specials [IVSPC]
Throws [IVTHR]

V. Getting to Know Your Ganon
Approaching [VAPRCH]
On the Defensive [VB]
Land Chasing (Landing Punishment) [VC]
Movement [VD]
Recovery [VEREC]
Edgeguarding [VF]
Strings [VSTR]

VI. Important Techs & Their Application
Wizkick Cancel [VIWKC]
Buffering/Reverse Buffering Info [VIBFFR]
Buffered Dash Cancel (BDC) [VIBDC]
Pivoting/Slide Cancel [VIPVT]
Reverse Boost Grabbing [VIRBG]
C-Stick vs A-Stick [VICVSA]
Super Ganon Jump/Flight of Ganon [VISGJ]

VII. Gerudo
Jekyll's Gerudo Follow Up Data [VIIA]
Gerudo>iDA Data [VIIB]
Using Gerudo [VIIC]

VIII. The Ganondorf Punishment/Safety Guide
IX. Match Ups
X. Stages
XI. Summary of Important Links
XII. Credits


I. Introduction

Ganondorf, probably one of the more underrated characters in Brawl, is in desperate need of some recognition and a brand spankin’ new guide. Shin’s guide was good, but is incredibly outdated. Right now we have a lot of useful threads, but they all seem to be separate tech threads. I want this guide to serve as more of a general thing for new and experienced players alike, as well as being a hub to all the other important Ganon threads. I have links to all of the relevant threads after each section. So if you get done reading a section and hunger for more info, you can go to that specific thread and talk about it there instead of this thread. Oh, and keep in mind that this is a guide, not a rule set for playing Ganon. A couple sections are pretty widely open to interpretation, and you don’t have to listen to me, I’m just lending out advice that I know is helpful. But I suggest you listen…seriously, I typed all this out. A message from people who have no patience: It's Ganondorf not Gannondorf!

II. Ganondorf at a Glance

Pros
  • Ridiculously strong
  • Pretty good range & priority
  • Can be made faster via ACs and other techs
  • Stomp (deserves one on the pro side)
  • Gerudo & a great tech chase game
  • Great edgeguarding
  • Strong defense
  • Good anti-air & landing punishment

Cons
  • Slow running speed
  • Extremely laggy on a lot moves
  • Big-*** target
  • Poor recovery
  • Very limited approach
  • Projectiles are nasty to deal with
  • No great multi-hits


Ganon is mainly a defensive character, and his defense is amazing. He has quick high priority moves that serve well as anti-air tactics, and a great auto canceled aerial to halt a lot of ground movement (stomp :D.) He has very limited approach however, and he can be harassed and bogged down by projectiles and sometimes even some good pressure. Being that is defense is amazing but has a glaring weakness, and his approach is very limited, Ganon has to adopt a play style of baiting and using your momentum wisely when you create an opening. Also, Ganon is able to link strings of attacks together that keep your opponent at a heavy disadvantage, severely limiting their options. One example of this is something I call land chasing, which I’ll cover later, but is basically taking advantage of the tough spot people are put into when landing in Brawl. The fact that he doesn’t have a great multi hit move does hurt him a little bit, especially when I think that power shielding will become more and more common in Brawl. Multi hit/long duration moves are important due to how airdodging and dodging in general is in Brawl. However he does have a couple delayed hitboxes and ones that stay out for a little while. But this is just Ganon at a glance…and we have much further to go…



III. Terms

Some useful terminology to know in order of...what came to my head lol.

U/N/B/F/D-Air/Smash/Tilt/Throw
: This is pretty much just certain attack in a direction. For example, U-Air=up aerial a attack, N-Air=Neutral aerial a attack, F-Tilt=Forward tilt a attack.

AC/Autocancel: When you autocancel a move, you land at the soonest point in that aerials duration so that you have no lag upon landing. A couple examples are Wolf's 0-lag f-air, or more importantly, Ganon's D-Air. Ganondorf happens to have three shorthop AC moves. So this is good to know.

Tech chasing: Not an extremely technical concept. This is pretty much the act chasing after your opponents techs and rolls.

Wizkick: Wizard's Foot...DownB...I just use this abbreviation :p

WKC: Wizkick Cancel is the act of doing wizkick at a certain point on the stage so that the ending lag is canceled out by just going over the ledge, allowing all sorts of neat stuff. Check the tech thread for more on this.

Thunderstorm/Stomp: I rarely use the word d-air lol. I'll either be using the word thunderstorm or stomp, and when I'm normally talking about them I'm referring to the autocancel. I'll make it clear if I'm not.

RCO Lag: Recovery Carryover Lag is the extra lag you get after sweetspotting the ledge with either your UpB or Gerudo. The lag is about 16 frames and activates whenever you land. Aerial wizkick into the ground will not get rid of it. The only way to get rid of it is to use it or land another aerial. Be wary when you have this because it will start to become more annoying the better you get.

Pivoting: Info on true pivoting is found here and will prove to be very useful to space jabs, f-smashes, tilts, and other moves.

Slide Cancel (Dash Pivot Cancel): Okay actually called the Dash Pivot Cancel, but Slide Cancel is much more simple and easier to remember. Check up on it here. Might be useful for spacing in the future.

Buffering/Reverse Buffering (Bfd/RBfd): Okay, this is an easy enough concept that can be very helpful when used properly. Buffering is new to Brawl and it is pretty much having a certain amount of time to input an action during the ending animation of another action. This allows the next move you want to use to come out as soon as possible. Check up in the tech thread where I go more in depth with this and it's applications.

Grab Release: Exactly what it implies, when you or your opponent breaks out from the others grab.

DA/iDA: Dash Attack/Instant Dash Attack...instant dash attack is a direction, then c-stick down, allowing dash attack to come out right there.

SH/d: Short hop/ed...don't need to tell you >.<

FJ/d: Full jump/ed

DJ/d: Double jump/ed

Foxtrot: Quickly hitting the directional stick to a side then letting it return to neutral. The result is a quick dash. This is much less useful in brawl because it doesn't let you shield until you end the foxtrot. Ganondorf is slow to shield after foxtrotting, making his kind of...gay.

Shield Pushback
: When certain attacks connect with shields, they are strong enough to cause the opponent to slide backwards. This is shield pushback.

Sweetspot: Any part of an attack that is comparatively better than the rest of the attack. Also, the act of immediately latching onto the ledge when it range with your recovery move.

Hitbox
: Pretty much the range of the attack or what part of the attack effects the opponent.

Disjointed Hitbox: A hitbox that is not part of the character's body (ie swords, projectiles).

Lag: Eet's lag...the cooldown animation of a move, where you can't do anything else.

A-Stick/ing: This is using a certain type of control set up, where your c-stick is set to tilts instead of smashes. This is very helpful in buffering out of Gerudo and aerials, as well as pivoting.

OoS: Out of shield.

IASA: Interruptible As Soon As, the visual animation hasn't finished yet, but you can do something else past a certain frame on this move.

DI: Directional Influence, when in the air you are able to control where you go to an extent by holding the control stick certain way. Their are multiple types of DI.

IV. Move List

A couple notes about the data in this section
  • Decayed damage is only the damage of the move on the tenth use to give an idea of decay, if you really have need of damage after that...talk to someone else -_-.
  • Decay rate is a general idea of how much the move will decay. Either a little with prolonged use, average, or a lot.
  • Keep in mind that decay tends not to matter too much for Ganon, as you aren't going to be landing a lot of his moves in quick succession >.>. The exceptions are Dash Attack and Stomp, both of which lose quite a bit of knockback if used a lot.
  • The game registers damage in regular Brawls with decimals, and then the damage will sometimes round up. I'll list the damage precisely how it is. (thanks to weinner)
  • The pics of the moves are general hitboxes only, not exact.
  • The red area is the complete extent of the move, while any red/purple is the area of the sweetspot on the move.
  • Damage is a pretty simple concept...what percent damage the move does.
  • Speed is also self explanatory...The amount of frames the move takes is also there.
  • Range...again simple
  • Lag is the amount of cool down there is on the move.
  • Moves that can auocancel out of SH are marked as (AC)
  • I don't have hitbox pics for everything yet...cmon, anyone? wanna throw in a hitbox pic or two?
  • All kill percents are fresh and tested on Mario
  • Lol the little Ganon's are the ratings of the moves within Ganondorf's moveset. It's out of 5 Ganons. 5 being a great Ganondorf move, and 1 being a horrible Ganondorf move. And there's also a special rating in there that you'll see. I tried to make a half Ganon head, but it wouldn't let me put it on here :(.


The Frame Data

This is for anyone who wants to expand their knowledge of Ganon to fractions of a second. Brawl runs at 60 fps (frames per second), and moves take up a certain amount of frames to execute.

Alright, considering that there’s a sticky up with all of Ganon’s exact frame data, including useful techs and info.
Check it out - Frame Data and Tech Thread!


• Basics [IVBAS]


Jab - Thunder Palm
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 7.35% (9.45% tipped)
Damage (Decayed): 6.23% (8.01%)
Decay Rate: Little
Speed: Great
Range: Good
Lag: Worse than you'd think -_-
Kills Around: 183% fresh

Jab is you're ultimate "get off me" attack. Great speed, and has pretty good range as well. Even at low percents the knockback for this move is good, and it can get people off the stage and even kill at higher percents. After fake out autocancels and SHADs, jabs are very nice to throw out to snuff any approach with its high priority. Jab is probably your last resort follow up to Gerudo. Certain characters can only be hit with jab, and in that situation it's probably best used as a move to get them off the edge. If you land Gerudo on characters like Snake or Link, use jab to push them off and follow up with an edgeguard. Jab has a glaring drawback though. It's lag is pretty bad for a jab, and really just plain bad. You can bet that if it's shielded at close range it can be punished with shield grab, and can even be punished at long ranges. In very close range pressure situations, stick to your grab or SHAD/pivot into an attack. Jab is a good, quick pressure handler though.

Dash Attack - Iron Shoulder
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf: 1/2

Damage (Fresh): 15.75% (10.5% sourspot)
Damage (Decayed): 13.35% (8.9%)
Decay Rate: A Lot (Especially KO potential)
Speed: Great
Range: Great
Lag: Pretty bad (mostly on shield, you’ll get punished)
Kills Around: 107% fresh

This is one of Ganondorf's best moves. With the instant dash attack, this move is incredibly fast for being so powerful. It has great kill potential, great priority, great damage, and is very useful in many aspects. Sometimes though, you have to do a bit of a balancing act with this move. The decay on this move is huge, and one use can actually change the kill percent at least 15%. So you have to decide on whether or not to use this move as a killer, punisher, anti-air tactic, or any other of its uses. The reason I don't use it as regularly in my matches is because of the move decay, and I want to save it for guaranteed kills when I land Gerudo. So I decide to not save it usually when my opponent is either heavy, or can't be hit by DA after Gerudo. This move is great though even without killing. It has high priority to cut through and cancel projectiles, aerials, tilts, and smashes, and stops so many things in their tracks. It's one downside though, is of course, its lag, or rather, its lag when it hits a shield. They spot dodge, and you're usually on the safe side.

• Tilts [IVTLT]


F-Tilt - Boot to Chest
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf: 1/2

Damage (Fresh): 13.65%
Damage (Decayed): 11.57%
Decay Rate: Average
Speed: Great
Range: S'okay
Lag: Baaad
Kills At: 123% fresh

I actually use this move sparingly, mostly because its lag is so bad that I'm not sure if it balances the great defensive capabilities. F-Tilt is fast, powerful, has a great knockback angle, great priority, and can destroy certain approaches like none other. However, it has the least range of all his ground attacks, and the lag is pretty bad. If they shield this, there really isn't enough stun for you not to get punished. Even with those faults in mind, it's still a decent move considering it can cut both ground and aerial approaches short with its hitbox, and force the opponent into a bad position off stage. Just know that you should be using this as a defensive tactic and punisher only. Oh, this can hit a variety characters out of Gerudo as well, but it's slightly hard if you don't have the c-stick set to tilts. In my opinion, I don't really like f-tilt out of Gerudo. Most of the people hit by f-tilt can be hit by jab as well, which covers getting them off the stage and is much easier to buffer. And I use DA to get my kills out of Gerudo, but it depends on your playstyle. I know that Jekyll still likes to boot the hell out of people after Gerudo. Olimar can be hit out of this out of your side B, it's devastating to him, getting him off the stage at like 50-80%. Use it.


D-Tilt - Shin Breaker (ala Sliq)
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf: :ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 12.6%
Damage (Decayed): 10.68%
Decay Rate: Average
Speed: Pretty good
Range: Great
Lag: Better than most of his other ground moves
Kills At: 136% fresh (130% sweetspotted)

Now this would go in Ganondorf's "best moves" category. Oh, by the way sliq...shin breaker was the perfect name. D-Tilt has great priority, start up, applications, and range. It does great job at spacing and poking under shields too. It may have a couple more frames of start up than his other standard ground moves, but it make up for that by having a faster cooldown time with its IASA frames (okay by 2 frames, but still.) D-Tilt, more than anything, is a launcher and a move that puts the opponent at a serious disadvantage. When you land a d-tilt at earier percents, you hit them up only slightly into the air where they have few options, and you can follow up with another attack if they choose wrong. I call this land chasing and I cover it later in the guide. Pretty much, you d-tilt, they airdodge, and you can land another d-tilt, DA, wizkick, gerudo, or what have you just because they airdodged. At mid percents they pop up higher and you're allowed the options of a few aerials (u-air and f-air namely.) At higher percents it seems to lose its flair because it knocks up too high for decent chasing, and it doesn't really kill as well as Ganondorf's other moves, especially if it's been weakened. For the reason of land chasing, this is a great move out of Gerudo. Gerudo>d-tilt>gerudo>d-tilt ftw.

Standing d-tilt is pretty much bypassing the crouching animation and doing d-tilt. Done by slightly tilting the control stick down and hitting A almost immediately.

U-Tilt - Volcano Kick

:ganondorf::ganondorf:. 1/2

Damage (Fresh): 27.3% (19.95% sourspot, around the explosion)
Damage (Decayed): -_-
Decay Rate: -_-
Speed: Very slow
Range: Godly
Lag: Surprisingly, not much lag.
Kills At: 42% fresh

This isn't necessarily a horrible move...but you won't be using it that much I can guarantee you. It's range is pretty damn good, and it'll surprise you when it hits someone when you weren't expecting it to. Of course the knockback and damage is plain crazy, killing people at very early percents. The shield damage it does is insane...seriously, one f-smash and one u-tilt destroys a full shield. Also, it's cooldown time isn't bad at all, and you usually won't be punished after this move goes off. The only downside and the big reason you won't be using this move much is the start up time. It takes a couple seconds to charge, so most likely if you're playing a smart player they're going to run in and get a free shot off straight to the testes. You can use this for edgeguarding though as a low risk, high reward move.​

• Smashes [IVSMSH]


F-Smash - Ganenbow (lulz)
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf: 1/2

Damage (Fresh): 25.2% (35.28% charged)
Damage (Decayed): 21.36% (29.9%)
Decay Rate: A Lot
Speed: Fairly slow to average
Range: Vuury good, has a nice disjointed hitbox.
Lag: Eh
Kills At: 74% fresh

I think the bow is a pretty good move, even considering its drawbacks. It's slow on start up, but is somewhat difficult to punish because of its shield stun and pushback. Regardless, smart players can still find ways to run in and punish/grab. Flaws aside, it's incredibly powerful in the killing department (like 70% uncharged), does a lot of damage, has great priority, and great reach with its disjointed hitbox. It has even greater reach when stutter stepped, which is hitting the opposite direction on the control stick, then hitting forward with the c-stick. This results in f-smash increasing dramatically in range. F-Smash should mostly be reserved for punishing really laggy moves, approaches, and predicting on occasion. The bow is probably at its best when pivoted, punishing run ins, aerial approaches (when angled up,) and putting on good shield pressure. It's also probably the best move to choose when you choose to predict and punish out of gerudo, or just destroy a spot dodge.


U-Smash - Big Boot
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 19.95%, 23.1% sweetspot AKA his footsie (26.25%, 32.34% charged)
Damage (Decayed): 16.91%, 19.58% ss (23.67%, 27.41%)
Decay Rate: A Lot
Speed: Fairly slow to average
Range: Well vertically it's pretty good, lacks a little bit in the horizontal department.
Lag: Actually, pretty decent due to it's IASA frames
Kills At: 105% fresh (85% sweetspotted)

Between u-smash and u-tilt...Ganon is flexible as hell o.O. Shoving his foot up into the air at almost a 90 degree angle to the ground, this actually has the least lag of pretty much all of his moves. This is because the IASA frames on this move are ridiculous, canceling while his foot is still in the air. U-Smash does a good job killing, faking out, juggling, and stopping. It has a pretty large hitbox in front of it considering the move, and the sweetspot is really where this move's killing potential shines. Personally, I think that the start up time on this move kind of limits it as a stopper. I think it really does well as a fake out, because most people fall for those IASA frames every time, running into a f-tilt, jab, or even gerudo. It's also great, of course, under the opponent or under a platform while the opponent is on it...>.>. After stomps, u-smashes are pretty nice for racking up a hell of a lot of damage, and you can follow them up into the air for even more. Stomp>U-Smash has been dubbed the "Murder Combo", but be careful because you can be hit out of the u-smash at earlier percents with quicker attacks. Did I mention you can crotch block projectiles?


D-Smash - Clumsy Kicks
:ganondorf: 1/2

Damage (Fresh): 5.25% and 14.7% (7.35% and 20.58% charged)
Damage (Decayed): 4.45% and 12.46% (6.23% and 17.44% charged)
Decay Rate: Little
Speed: Somewhat quick on the first hit
Range: Pretty good, about the same range horizontally as f-smash.
Lag: Bad
Kills At: 123% fresh

One of my least used Ganon moves. Obviously, due to the name I gave it, I'm not a fan of this move. It does have decent horizontal range, and its speed really isn't to shabby. OoS I guess it's a useful tactic, but really it just isn't that useful overall. It's pretty laggy, doesn't have much kill potential for a Ganon smash, and I have the second hit of this move DId/air dodged out of all the time, giving them an opportunity to punish me. Give me something the d-smash can do and I can probably name you something that does it better, and gives you a better reward.​

• Aerials [IVAER]


N-Air - Double Kicks
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 11.55% and then 7.35%
Damage (Decayed): 9.79% and 6.23%
Decay Rate: Little
Speed: Great, second fastest aerial by a frame
Range: Good
Lag: Average for ganon, among the least of his aerials
Kills At: ~190% >.>

I really don't think n-air is given enough credit by many people. It certainly has flaws, but it has usefulness in the fact that it's Ganon's only multi hit move...yes I'm not counting d-smash. It's fast, and has pretty good reach and priority in front of him. It's a little bit more known now, but n-air is not a full jump auto cancel. In fact when you full jump n-air, the animation ends and you can DJ an aerial or air dodge, or even do a low level aerial gerudo. This is very good for fake outs and aerial pursuit. Lately I've been using FJ nair a lot more to chase people who are in the air. I sacrifice the vertical reach of u-air to more easily catch airdodgers, and then after they get hit by the second hit of my nair, I can DJ into whatever I please. Usually they don't like to air dodge again after they get hit by the nair, and if they do, f-air does a good job of punishing. N-air is also one of your best aerial interrupters, and you're going to need it if you get in a tight spot with juggles. I've also been playing around with it as an edgeguard lately. It works well to drop off the stage quickly, and throw out a n-air. The second hit works well to catch opponents recovering who are expecting a different edgeguard, as it covers a good bit of distance. It has close to the same effects as a weak “tipman” u-air, and a great way to finish someone off the stage is to blast across the stage with a wizkick cancel, followed into a n-air edgeguard. For me, it’s also one of the best OoS attacks I can find. It’s your quickest option, excluding quake (-_-) and grab (the short range of which will often cause you to miss,) and it’s great to retreat with, as the multiple hits offer somewhat of a keep-away for your lag to end after the OoS.

F-Air - Skull Crush Punch

:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf: 1/2

Damage (Fresh): 15.75% (17.85% sweetspot)
Damage (Decayed): 13.35% (15.13% sweetspot)
Decay Rate: Average on damage, a Lot on knockback
Speed: Tiny bit on the slow side
Range: Pretty good
Lag: Ugh...bad
Kills At: 93% fresh

This is a good move, there's no doubt, but it has a lot of drawbacks to the point where you're not really sure if you want to use it or not. For starters, the lag is pretty bad when you land. It's not only that, the aerial lag is plain awful too, so much so that if you do a FJed one of these, you don’t have to fast fall and you’ll still land with the full 36 frames of lag. The start up on the move isn't great either, but that can be used as advantage to destroy air dodgers. With these faults in mind, it still has tremendous killing power, reach, and shield pushback and stun. The sweetspot for this move is at his fist, and it travels in a unique arch (if anyone could get me a hitbox pic that would be great). Learn to space that sweetspot almost like you would Marth's tipper, and f-air will be kind of hard to punish. This is because all of f-airs good shield stun and pushback is located on the sweetspot. The change in killing potential is also noticeable as hell when you hit with the sweetspot. It outspaces even swords sometimes, and can edgeguard and destroy air dodgers and people on platforms like none other. F-air spacing is really important to get down, because really you always want to hit with the sweetspot of this move. If you fast fall it at a certain point in your short hop (around when you yell), your fist ends up crashing into the ground at a perfect angle, and not the horrible angle if you just pull it out as soon as you SH. Of course this is for spacing against grounded opponents mostly. In short, the sourspot of this move does not warrant its flaws, but the sweetspot version makes up for them. I've also been using it to get up on the edge a lot lately.

:Spacing with F-Air:

This is what makes f-air even close to viable enough to use at least twice in a match. I originally made a post in DADs collaborative effort thread, and since this pretty much explains the spacing and what needs to be done, I’ll just bring it right here. If you’re planning on using Ganondorf, know this, because it allows you to add another move effectively into your arsenal.
As for f-air, every Ganondorf main should be learning to space this very, very well. It should be your second nature to pull this out and hit with the very end of your fist. It would be helpful for someone to get a hitbox pic, but I can try to get a detailed one (I just wish there was something to get completely accurate hitbox pictures.)

When hitting with the inside portion of the f-air, it does much less knockback, much less shield stun and pushback, and a little bit less damage. Land with the just the tip of this move (the area arches from directly above and in front of Ganon when it starts out, and decent amount below him when it finishes,) and it does insane knockback, often killing medium weights off the side of the stage as early as 70%, pushes their shield back very far, and does a good amount of shield stun for Brawl. The shield stun and pushback are good enough to where most characters won't have quick enough moves to dole out the punishment. Of course, there are quick enough dash attacks, and definitely tether grabs that can take advantage of the lag, but that's why you have to know who you're fighting against.

You must know that if you don't connect with either the opponent or a regular shied (not powershield,) you will get punished. That is what becomes slightly tricky with f-air as you go along. You have the start up frames, and you have to be in juuuust the right range. Sounds hard, but it's just tricky sometimes. You have to be in the right range to stay outside theirs and hit with the sweetspot, but inside the right range to where you don't miss and get screwed. Spot dodging and powershielding seems like a problem at first, but with the timing of f-air, it becomes a little bit harder for them to time spot dodges and PSing.

Spacing f-air just takes quite a bit of practice and getting used to. Make sure that you fast fall the attack into their shield and range a lot, otherwise you're going to be hanging in the air after missing while they're on the ground ready to punish. Double jump becomes a very useful tool for setting up f-air spacing, as you can control the fall and range a little better. You should also learn to space it over moves as well, as the hitbox comes in around in arching motion to come over and skull crush a lot of moves. DK is a character where f-air can be very effective at competing with his own spacing game and beating a lot of his ground game.

Edgeguarding with f-air is something that should be used a little more often as well. It's definitely risky, especially with walk off f-air, because you barely grab the ledge to make it back, which can allow for an edgehog from decently smart players if you miss. Walk off f-air is still a main edgeguard in my book though. It requires almost no set up time if your near the ledge (tipman and stomp still require set up times that are much easier to see coming,) covers a very wide area, and will blast people off the side at fairly early percents.

I see f-air becoming a very big part of Ganondorf's game as we go along, as it's a very decent spacing tool that is fairly safe, causes lots of damage and knockback, and can out space even Marth in some scenarios. It's definitely something that can completely trump MKs range. I know that f-air can completely pressure a lot of opponents with a far reaching move that can KO a lot of characters at surprisingly low percents, and that can out space most characters in the game. It has its own weaknesses, but overall with proper use, it becomes a very deadly tool in Ganon's arsenal.

B-Air - Backhand (AC)
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 16.8%
Damage (Decayed): 14.24%
Decay Rate: Average
Speed: Great
Range: S'alright
Lag: Average for ganon, not terrible
Kills At: 134% (sweetspotted)

This move is a mixed bag. It's pretty **** good overall, but it's limited by the stupidest thing, its awkward hitbox. The hitbox makes sense, sure...but the autocanceled version doesn't hit a lot of characters because Ganon is so tall and his fist is so high up. If it was a lasting hibox it would be just dandy, but since it's so quick to end it's a limited move. It has decent horizontal reach, great speed, great priority, and has pretty good kill potential as well. I use b-air mostly for snuffing people coming in with a short hop and fake outs...and that's about it. It seems like it has got so much potential, and I really want to use it more, but on anyone except big opponents it's best as a fake out into tilts, gerudo, or smashes. It does completely snuff out quite a few aerial approaches which is really nice, so it's very nice as a retreating aerial.

I've been using this move more often. It's definitely limited by it's hitbox against very short characters, but it's perhaps one of the safest moves ganondorf has in his arsenal when used correctly. Of course when it's ACd it is safe, but on shield this move is incredibly safe even when the landing lag occurs. When a b-air (with lag) lands on an opponent's shield, it seems to give around a -16 frame advantage. This, combined with b-air's respectable push back makes it very hard to punish when landed on a shield. This does not revolutionize Ganondorf's game, and I'm not saying that you should start spamming b-air all over the place. But I think it should be something that's should be experimented with.

U-Air - Vulture Kick (AC)
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf: :ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 13.65% (6.3% Tipman)
Damage (Decayed): 11.57% (5.34% Tipman)
Decay Rate: Average (Does lose quite a bit of its kill power, but it’s too good to save)
Speed: Fantastic, Ganon’s quickest move
Range: Good range everywhere except below him
Lag: Average for Ganon
Kills At: 131% fresh

Mua hahaha! U-Air fits right along d-tilt and DA as one of Ganondorf's best attacks. This move has so many uses for Ganondorf, and on top of its usability and spamability, it's ties as his fastest attack, has decent range in front, above, and behind him, stops aerial approaches well, takes care of airborne opponents well, edgeguards with its tipman hit extremely well, tipman hit leads to tilts on the ground, and autocancels for no lag. Learn to use the reverse side of this for edgeguarding because it's your best option when they are off the stage, sending characters with average recoveries to the depths. Quick run off fast fall u-airs are great as well though when they are close to the stage. They're great for juggling as well, and scaring people into airdodging. The decent range in front of it can actually cut approaches short and hit people on the ground. This is your all purpose aerial, use it.

Through lots of playing time, I am thoroughly convinced that this is by far Ganondorf's best move. Has crazy range in front of him for an up aerial, and has ridiculous priority and speed. Any person with a semi-big hitbox will get hit by this on the ground, and it will flat out stop anyone who tries to jump in the air. I have been using this a lot for pressure, and to be honest, it's my quasi-approach. In very competitive and heated matches, you'll find that this is going to be one of your saving graces and something you can depend upon. If you find you’re getting shield grabbed out of it (AC version of course,) or something ridiculous like that, just DI this puppy away out of range. Since a lot of characters take to the air in Brawl, this is probably going to be one of your main feint aerials. Whip this out to stop a lot of the short hops and when they try to run in for something, buffer a d-tilt to shatter their shin/faceblast them with gerudo/f-smash/blah. The fact that this is a killing move is irrelevant; you shouldn't be saving this move, ever. You have too many good options with it, including defense, offense, and edgeguarding.


D-Air - Tombstone (AC)
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf: :ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh)
: 23.1% o.O (sourspot at his chest 17.85%)
Damage (Decayed): 19.58% (sourspot 15.13%)
Decay Rate: A Lot (Kill potential goes down especially)
Speed: S'alright, somewhat slow on the start up
Range: Pretty good vertically, horizontally it has some disjointed hitbox but still not great.
Lag: Well if you mess up the auto cancel you're in for hurt, the lag is terrible. 0 lag auto canceled though
Kills At: 88% fresh

Yeeees, this is the move that has made me want to stick with Ganon for so long, well this and Gerudo. First off and most importantly, get the auto cancel down for this move, because you should rarely be using it when it's not ACed or used off the edge. There are a few methods to thunderstorming (as lagless d-airs are called,) some of which are Y while holding down then hitting A, or control stick up while hitting the c-stick down. I personally use the latter. Whatever method you use you are basically hitting d-air as soon as you short hop. This move does 22 fucking damage, has great vertical range, good horizontal disjointed hotboxes considering the move, kills, and puts the opponent at a disadvantage for a juggling/combo opportunity. This is a big damage racker, and you land two at low percents and that usually 40+% right there. Follow that up with an aerial and that's close to 60 damage. Stomp does a great job punishing a lot of ground approaches, smashes, tilts, and to be honest some aerials. This is the move that they are going to be scared as hell of, and a lot of times your opponent isn't going to want to approach because of it >.>. It does have some downsides though. It cannot be used as an approach. Even though it has decent shield pushback and stun, it puts so much freeze time on you that you can get shield grabbed and even attacked out of it most of the time. Also, most aerial approaches and u-tilts will stop stomp cold. U-Tilts just because they are fast enough to interrupt stomp's start up time, and aerials because stomp's hitbox is mostly below it, and Ganon's just a big target in the air when people are spacing correctly with aerials. Learn to punish with this move as it's one of his best options.

Who Gets Hit By Wat Nao?


Here is something copied over from Sliq's guide to techs. He pretty much did testing of aerials that hit characters on the ground. This includes the front of u-air, b-air, and FJ Stomp. Take a look at it because it'll come in handy.

Aerial Rave
So I've tested this with everyone, and have compiled a list of characters that are hit by the full jump stomp, short hop up air, and short hop bair. Some characters can not be hit with the full hop stomp, but CAN be hit if you double jump after the full hop stomp, and stomp again. Also, some characters require you hit with the tip of the up air or bair in order to actually hit them with the move.

FJD = full jump dair, FJD2 = double jump dair after FJD, bair = back air

Bowser: all
DK: all
Zelda: all
Sheik: all but FJD
Peach: bair (tip), up air (tip)
Yoshi: all but FJD
Link: all but FJD
Samus: all
ZSS: all
Pit: all but FJD
Rob: all but FJD
Dedede: all
Falco: all
Cpt. Falcon: all
Ganondorf: all
Charizard: all
Marth: all
Ike: all
Snake: all

If I didn't list the character, then they don't get hit by anything. Stick to dairing or tilts, or read an aerial and up air.

All characters were standing neutral during the test. I haven't tested crouching yet.

• Specials [IVSPC]


Neutral B - Warlock Punch
:falcon:
lol I give it a falcon cuz it sux (expect flames from Falcon mains)

Damage (Fresh): 33.6% (36.75% reversed)
Decay Rate: Really? You're going to be landing this move constantly in succession?
Speed: Horrible
Range: Crappy
Lag: Horrible
Kills At: 26% fresh

Okay, well the range isn't that horrible horizontally, but that's just to dissuade you from using it. Don't...ever...use it. The only possible use for it is recovery. You can actually reverse the first part of the move, then reverse it again, giving you a decent horizontal boost in the air. However, it takes a long time to pull it off and you are very vulnerable to getting your *** handed to you while doing it. Use that paunch after shield breaks too.

Side B - Flame Choke/Gerudo

:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf: 1/2

Damage (Fresh): 9.45% (aerudo 12.6%)
Damage (Decayed): 8.01% (aerudo 10.68%)
Decay Rate: Little
Speed: Decent
Range: Great
Lag: Ugh, you’ll usually get punished if you come short, or if they spot dodge
Kills At: 666% seriously...check it out for yourself.

This move actually has a choking animation against only a few characters due to their hitbox. The move is actually a face blast, but I guess Flame Face Blast wasn't catchy. Pause the game when you have Fox in this move...it is perhaps the funniest face I have ever seen anyone make.

This is the move that made me want to use Ganondorf in the first place. Anyone who has even tried using Ganon has seen this move's obvious potential. It's decently quick, punishes well, tacks on 9%, obviously eats through shields, and puts them at a disadvantage to allow for tech chasing or guaranteed follow ups. I like to think of this move as a pace setter, and a move to be used in the middle of all his other moves. Ganondorf thrives when the other person his forced to play him on his level, and Gerudo is key evidence of this. They're on a roll and you nail Gerudo? They've just been put to the ground where they can get hit with a guaranteed follow up, and their options are limited so they can easily get hit with a tech chase. If they happen to get out of the situation they're just reset again and their momentum has been shifted. I also like to think of it as kind of, a bridge to a lot of Ganon's strategy. It can connect moves together, and give you guaranteed opportunities to kill, get the opponent off the edge, or d-tilt to set them up for another move. You have near-limitless options after you land Gerudo. F-Smash, moar Gerudo, wizkick, f-air, and almost all of Ganondorf's moves are there for you to land if you want prediction. But I think a lot of Gerudo's payoff lies in its guaranteed follow ups...which I cover later in the guide, y’know in that big section called Gerudo. Be wary that this move is not to be used often for approaching, as it can be punished. Ganoncide is always fun if you are up a stock, or at the same stock with a much higher percentage. Grab the opponent off the edge with this and plummet down with them screaming your lungs out. If you grab the opponent while the lava is up in a stage (Norfair, Brinstar), you will grab them and force them down through the lava, knocking you up in the process. After a certain percent it keeps you alive while killing the opponent. With water, however, you land in the water after putting your opponent there, meaning they can get off a spike if they have a reliable one. Gerudo can be kinda buggy sometimes, though very rarely. Ness, ROB, Lucas, and G&W can be put up on a platform if you Gerudo them under a platform on Battlefield and sometimes Lylat. Very nice for chasing them with an u-air/u-smash. A more annoying bug is by the fin on Corneria. With bigger characters like DK or Charizard, if you land Gerudo below the fin, it'll explode em and make em grab the ledge o.O.


Down B - Wizard's Foot

Grounded
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh)
: 10.5% (12.6% close)
Damage (Decayed): 8.9% (10.68% close)
Decay Rate: Average
Speed: Decent, same as gerudo
Range: Great
Lag: Not good…at all. Punished on shield, miss, and if you hit them at early percents.
Kills At: ---%

Though it doesn't seem like it because of its low priority, this move is pretty good for a variety of reasons. First, its range is incredible, with a hitbox spanning probably a third of FD. Its speed is better than you would think, with the exact same start up time as Gerudo, and it has a large and lasting hitbox. The ole wizkick is pretty good against the spot dodge heavy, as its lasting hitbox tends to destroy spot dodges. Perfectly timed spot dodges can avoid wizkick, but it's hard. Like most of Ganon's moves, this is another heavily defensive maneuver. Because Ganondorf has no fast multi-hits, this is one of his best options for spot dodges, low level airdodges, and long distance punishing. If they are spamming aerials at a distance, wizkick can close the distance quickly, and often hit them out of the air. The same goes for someone who has used a laggy move at a distance too far for Gerudo or DA to reach, use wizkick and close the distance and punish. Wizkick is incredibly useful in land chasing, which I cover later. You can catch anybody approaching the ground with an air dodge or DIing away with wizkick. Murder Kick is also especially useful for the WKC, which allows you to fly across at most half the distance of a stage, cancel it on the edge and follow up with an aerial. Check out more on the Wizkick Cancel in the Tech section.

Aerial
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 15.75% initial, 14.7% for second hitbox (8.4% shockwave)
Decay Rate: Average
Speed: Decent, same as ground version for start up
Range: Pretty good vertically
Lag: Pretty awful
Kills At: 93% fresh

Despite its obvious faults, the aerial wizkick is a great kill move, it's very fast, and it has pretty good priority even though its grounded version doesn't. On a character pursuing you in the air or readying an u-smash as you descend, wizkick flies down with lightning speed and puts your foot through their face. However, this move is veeery predictable and laggy. If you get baited into it, or it gets shielded, you can easily be punished with something big. It does have a shockwave at the end that catches unsuspecting players who drop their shield, but that still doesn't help much with the lag. High risk, decent reward move, you should know that you are going to connect with this. Also, ledge jump>wizkick for fun times.

IMPORTANT NOTE (The Murder Quake): Okay, hopefully this ends a lot of unnecessary threads around here, the instant down B from a jump is known. It is pretty much useless. It is around 10 frames (same as safer and better moves), and has the same 44 frames of lag, which is pretty much more than any of Ganon's moves. Jab, f-tilt, d-tilt, and grab are all quicker or the same. It's called Quake and it's a horrible move and has already been explored.


Up B - Dark Dive
:ganondorf::ganondorf: 1/2

Damage (Fresh): 11.55% (7.35% uppercut)
Speed: Eh, on the slower side of a lot of his moves
Range: Well, the grab range is okay as far as grab ranges go. Punch range is actually decent.
Lag: Average to bad on landing, but you are stuck in the air like a ******* for a while

Uuum...it's his crappy recovery move. Honestly I've tried this as an attack and it really hasn't shown me anything special. I always would rather dash grab in for an actual opportunity for some sort of follow up. It has virtually no hitstun, and people with quick aerials can actually hit you as they are coming out of this move. On top of that, when you land it on the ground you get launched up very high, putting you at somewhat of a disadvantage. Plus if you miss you're fucked. The punch isn't anything special, just an extra measure to help prevent getting edgehogged, and you are definitely going to need that measure. It doesn't give your opponent back their second jump, which can doom them if they aren't paying attention. I'll test this out a little more to see if the reward is good enough in comparison to the risk of using your recovery option like that. As a recovery move, well you can get edgehogged a lot. So try to put yourself in a position where you can sweetspot, or barely make it onto the ledge if they are holding onto it. Oh, really important to know about RCO lag. When you sweetspot the edge with either UpB or Gerudo, the game will activate the recovery lag the next time you land on the ground. It's 16 frames and even though it doesn't seem like much at first...it gets pretty god damn annoying. Wizkick does not cancel out the RCO lag, only aerials and regular landing. You have to be wary every time you sweetspot that edge.​

• Throws [IVTHR]


Grab (Pummel=2.1%)
:ganondorf::ganondorf: 1/2

Ganon's grab range is horrible, and I really wouldn't be surprised if I found out i was the worst in the game. Even with his grab range being terrible, he still has a few good options out of his grab. Plus, his grab is probably his best option at very close range, and it happens to be one of the fastest grabs in the game, on start up and recovery. I personally like to make up for his grab by using reverse boost grabs and dash grabs, which are both very useful.

F-Throw
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 13.65%
Damage (Decayed): 11.57%
Decay Rate: Average
Angle: Straight forward

This is his "get em off the stage" grab. It has good knock back, even at low percents and sends them straight forward to be edgeguarded. It does the most damage too, so it's a very useful grab.

B-Throw
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 10.5%
Angle: Away and up

His other get off the stage throw...that's about all it's useful for. It also can KO at high percents.

U-Throw
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf:

Damage (Fresh): 7.35%
Angle: Straight Up

U-Throw isn't too bad, but it really doesn't do a whole lot other than put them up in the air for an opportunity to juggle or trap or whatever. This would be a great use except they can DI whatever way they please and even at 0% they're put up pretty far, except it doesn't kill ever -_-. Every so often I'll use this at low percents then predict an air dodge then either n-air or u-air them.

D-Throw
:ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf::ganondorf: 1/2

Damage (Fresh): 7.35%
Angle: Slightly above him and in front of him

This is pretty much the only reason I use his grab game, this and getting people off the edge of course. At first d-throw doesn't seem too hot for the fact that it can be airdodged out of immediately, and DId kind of far away. But it's one of those moves that puts the opponent at a disadvantage because it pops them up close to the ground, where their options are more limited. After a d-throw at early percents you are able to wait and follow up with a variety of things if they choose to be foolish and air dodge. Check the Land Chasing section in Getting to Know Your Ganon, if you want to know more about the d-throw stuff.

Grab Release Options

Lucas: Ground release>jab, air release (over stage)>wizkick or dash attack, air release (over edge)>walk off f-air.

Metaknight: Air release>wizkick

Ness: Ground release>jab

Squirtle: Air release>wizkick

Wario: Air release> D-Air, U-Air, N-Air, F-Air, regrab, U-Smash, angled up F-Smash, F-Tilt, UpB, wizkick.

~Related Threads~
Ganondorf Moveset Discussion

V. Getting to Know Your Ganon

This is the section that is open to interpretation and debate. These are really strategies that I know to be very helpful to Ganon’s game in general, and I’ll go in depth with every facet of this destroyer’s methods. If you have anything you think to be useful that I could add to one of these sections, let me know and I’ll see what I can do.

• Approaching >____> [VAPRCH]

Let me start off by saying, Ganon seriously lacks an approach. His moveset is very defense-oriented and you’re going to want to keep your approach to a minimum. Getting inside your opponents range and baiting is probably your most effective tactic, but for the sake of helping out, I’ll share a few options if you really want to approach.

SHADing (Short Hop Air Dodging): This is very good as an approach and a retreat. It allows you to weave in and out with limited invulnerability, and buffer your faster standard attacks such as jab and d-tilt.
Just be careful as you are slightly vulnerable during the ending of the airdodge when landing and you can get hit out of it.

Stomp: This is really iffy as an approach. Stomp is a big defensive move, halting a lot of ground movement. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be approached with. It’s perfect for going over d-smashes and d-tilts, as well as other moves. U-tilts and aerials can still knock you out of it pretty easily though, so be wary. The shield stun and pushback is decent, but it can still be shield grabbed easily because of the stun time >.>. More effective than actually doing this right to their shield, is baiting them with it far away. Throw out stomps at a distance and follow up with one of Ganon’s many quick horizontal movers or standard attacks. It's really more of a reactive approach, bait, and defense than it is an approach.

D-Tilt: This is a great attack. It has range, speed, low lag, great priority, stabs through shields on occasion, and sets up for a part of a Ganon strategy I call land chasing. This should be one of your most used moves anyway so why not use it for approaching? It is a good solid poke. Ganon sucks at running and fox trotting, so approaching with this move should be limited to SHAD>bffd d-tilt, or aerial>bffd d-tilt. With Ganon’s autocancels, you’re somehow put in a crouching state at some time when you land, so I usually use c-stick down about mid-end in the aerial. This buffers a d-tilt in immediately and allows you to reverse them.

U-Air: That's right, Ganondorf has a spammable aerial (no, stomp isn't spammable.) U-Air is amazing, and really is only reliable semi-approach. If you learn to space this, you can advance with it, stopping any retaliation with a short hop, hit a lot of characters on the ground, and with proper DI you can slightly weave in and out with it so as not to get shield grabbed. Tipman hit is really more for defense, so try not to approach to much with reverse u-airs. Plus, you turn this into a solid approach and defense when you add buffered tilts and jabs out of it. Not much else to say except, work the U-Air!

Dealing with Projectile Spam: Ugh, these things are annoying. At one point I would consider them the bane of Ganondorf, but they can be dealt with. Um, really it’s kind of hard to give advice on this…you just do it :p. Slowly advancing forward and powershielding is a **** good method, so learn to powershield, especially since it’ll become more and more prominent in Brawl anyways. Until you can get the timing of powershielding down, SHADing is probably your best bet. Time this through most projectiles and you can slowly advance. The key is always patience.

Many of Ganondorf's attacks can also clank, or completely go through many projectiles. Dutchman did a list of these that should be investigated a bit more. If DA clashes with a projectile, I would seriously use it. Clanks and gets you inside fast.

With your fists!

I made science and found out which projectiles can be stopped/outprioritized by an attack. Sure, it's useless for stopping since you can powershield, but if you can bash through an attack and hit your opponent it's pretty good, no? It can give you a bit more safety in battle. I got some pretty surprising results. This isn't completed yet, but I will complete it soon.

:mario2: Mario's Fireballs

DA overrides Fireballs. Woop. Just bash straight through the spamming. Jab can stop the balls as well, but it cancels your own animation.

:peach: Peach's Turnips

Jab and DA just stop the Turnips. You can catch the Turnips by airdodging or doing an aerial, though, which is much more useful, especially with Glide Toss. Otherwise, just powershield.

:link2: Link's Arrows and Boomerang

DA overrides the Gale Boomerang, and Jab stops it. Yeah. Arrows can be stopped by jabbing, but honestly? Powershielding is a lot easier to do. Not sure about DA beating arrows.


:pit: Pit's Arrows

DA and jab both stop the Arrow. Powershielding is easier.

:diddy: Diddy's Peanuts and Banana's

Peanuts can be caught, the normal way, by airdodging or doing an aerial. DA destroys the peanut, which is awesome. Jabbing breaks the peanut as well.

Banana's are weirder, I think that DA'ing over them makes you trip, but I'm not sure. Otherwise, you can just pick them up and maybe try to catch them if Diddy is close by.

:popo: Ice Climbers' Ice Block

Dtilt reflects it. I'm not 100% sure how it's done, but I think you have to dtilt them so you hit them exactly at the tip of your foot. Know that it reflects both shots, but if you mess it up, one of them will hit you, and the other will be reflected.

:samus2: Samus' Charge Shot and Missles

A Homing Missle can be stopped with jab. However, you can also just override it with the DA and hit her in the face. A Super Missle is stronger - it can still be destroyed with the jab, but DA only clashes with it.

Small Charge Shots can be stopped with jabs, and I think Medium-sized can be stopped with ftilt. Another thing I know is that a fully charged Charge Shot can be stopped with an uncharged fsmash. In my opinion, it's easier than powershielding it and it looks really awesome.

:yoshi2: Yoshi's Eggs

Yoshi is pretty weird. Jab can stop it, but sometimes the egg hits you anyway. I think you have to hit it with the end of your jab, but I'm not sure. Ftilt drills through it easier, though. But you can still get hit out of it, sometimes. More testing will be needed.

Also, Yoshi's forward B clashes with ftilt and gets outprioritized by fsmash. Just cool stuff.

:toonlink: Toon Link's Arrows and Boomerang

Arrows can be stopped with jab and clashes with DA. Boomerang is the same as Link's, DA overrides it and jab clashes.

:dedede: King Dedede's Waddle Dee's

More strange projectiles. Anyway, jab 'stops' the Waddle Dee's. As in, it doesn't hurt you. Same with Waddle Doo's. They'll still be on screen and wander around though. I have no idea about Gordo's, but.. I don't think anything will override those.


This is all I have for now, but this'll need a bit more research. I'll get to that when I get unlazy.

• On the Defensive [VB]


Ah, finally, now this is Ganon’s domain. Defense is Ganon’s strength and you should be utilizing it a lot and trying to make them advance as much as possible. If you’re facing a smart opponent, they’ll know better than to just go head first into Ganon’s defense, so it’s important to know how to bait your opponent and exploit any retaliation he makes.

Stomp: Now this is one hell of an approach punisher. This is Ganon’s main defense against any ground approach really. It has amazing priority and disjointed hitboxes on the side, plus a lot of ground approaches can be punished with this, adding 22% fresh and setting up for more damage. The ground attacks it can punish include run in grabs, dash attacks, some f-tilts and d-tilts, and d-smashes. Most f-smashes in general stop it or trade hits. As awesome as stomp is, it has a couple of weaknesses as a defense. A lot of aerials, high priority u-tilts, and some u-smashes can mess up stomp. U-tilts don’t mess you up horribly, but enough to set you off pace and give the opponent an advantage. Aerial approaches are something to not use stomp at all most of the time. Some of them can be stopped due to your disjointed hitboxes on the side of d-air, but overall stick to stomping outside their range when they are using aerial approaches, and instead rely on your…

Anti-Air: A lot don’t see how great this part of Ganon is. You have a lot of options to stop most aerial approaches cold, and dissuade people from ever taking to the air. It further beats in the fact that Ganon has a pretty good overall defense. You’re options include f-tilt, DA, wizkick, b-air, and u-air. There are a couple others that are situational like u-smash and f-smash but will stick to the staples. F-tilt is definitely your shortest-ranged option, but it has a lot to make up for that. It has high priority that cuts through just about anything like an emo through wrists. It’s pretty fucking fast and the hitbox is large enough vertically to cover short hops.

Both DA and wizkick can usually be used in place of one another but they both have a couple distinct strengths and weaknesses. They are your long range horizontal punishers and they do it well, considering how quick they are on start up. DA has more priority than wizkick, but a smaller, less lasting hitbox, and less range. It’s a lot stronger though in general, and punishes aerials a little bit better than wizkick. Wizkick has an overall larger hitbox than DA, and it has a lot more range. It has a little bit more start up and lag in general, and its priority is definitely on the low side. I use this more for punishing air dodges low to the ground, or when they are out of reach for a DA and they are not ready. B-air is used for more of a retreating defense against air attacks, and u-air can destroy air approaches either forwards or backwards. If you want to trump their aerial with one of yours head on, I would stick to u-air, with its great range and priority it kills a lot of aerials. Learn to mix up your anti-ground and anti-air and they wwill not want to approach.

U-Air: Okay, I just barely touched on this in the anti-air thread, but u-air is perhaps you best anti-air in almost any situation. It has a great hitbox, great range, and some great priority that can destroy people coming in with aerials and short hops. You should rely on this a lot to stop people coming in from the air. As great as it is incoming aerial opponents, it's only semi-good for grounded ones. It will hit a good number of characters on the ground, but it will be slightly vulnerable to some characters that don't get hit by it. Just remember to space properly and retreat with it when necessary.

Retreating Aerials>Buffered Attacks: Retreating ACd aerials go very nicely into your buffered standard attacks. A lot of people tend to advance after you throw out an aerial, so if you buffer or reverse buffer in a move afterwards, you immediately cover your *** instead of getting hit or grabbed right after the aerial. More on reverse buffereing in ze tech thread! Go zer now eef you weesh to lurn!

Pivoting/Slide Canceling (Dash Pivot Cancel)
: Both of these are just methods of retreating then punishing an approach, or faking out an enemy with a slide cancel. I use foxtrot away into reversed F-smash a lot more now to punish approaches. I'm also trying to get down true pivoting as it can be very helpful in dashing away and immediately turning around a jab or maybe even a D-tilt. I'll get a little more in depth in ze tech section.

Out of Shield Defense (AKA: OoS): This is something a lot of characters need to have in their arsenal, to deal with pressure and the like on their shield. When the opponent lands a move on your shield, quite a few moves will give you the opportunity to either roll away and reset, or counter attack for some extra damage or momentum. Ganon has a few options when it comes to his OoS game, and you need to know what works. His main options are grab, drop shield and jab, n-air, quake, and u-air. OoS is generally considered directly out of shield, without having to drop it (dropping your shield is 7 frames of lag until your next move start,) but we’re forgetting that for jab.

Grab is your quickest option, but is by far the option with the least range. Know when your grab will land, because it truly has horrible range.

Jab is actually your slowest option of the ones I listed, but its range gives it benefits. Make sure you can punish the attack with a jab however, otherwise you’re going to get punished.

N-Air is my favorite option. It doesn’t really give any positioning or lead to anything, but it counter-attacks well. It has great range in front of him, probably around the same as jab, it’s faster than jab by a couple frames, and you can retreat with it, giving you a bit of breathing room. If you time a fast fall well, the second hit will come out right before you hit the ground, giving you an extra defense if they drop their shield and try to go after you. Oh it’s also less laggy than the previous options.

U-air, u-air, u-air, you can be used for just about everything can’t you? U-air is similar in concept to n-air except its range is a bit more limited. Unlike n-air though, it’ll auto cancel giving you 0 lag, and it has better range above it.

Quake…I’m not a fan of this move. It could be the thousands of threads we used to get, or it could be the ~40 frames of lag for a move that I think clearly isn’t worth it. Its range is pretty much grab range, in front and behind it though. It won’t hit an airborne opponent, yet it is his second quickest option. There are very few situations, if any, that you should use this. I’d say the main one is if they’re in very close and behind you.

*People will probably want me to mention OoS Up-B as well. I really don’t think it’s a viable option. This is mostly because it’s quicker to use than any of the previous options. Jab can do the same job, except quicker and safer. Even if the opponent shields and the Up-B grab hits them, a lot of characters can attack you out of it, or recover then attack you.

• Land Chasing (Landing Punishment) [VC]


This is a large chunk of Ganon strategy, and it's a shame to see it neglected and have no one mentioning it much. It might be known, but as of now, no one has really explained it all out. Land Chasing is what I call the act of either forcing people into the air and predicting certain land options, or just plain punishing their landing. Since Brawl is so floaty and air dodges are highly punishable, landing in Brawl is somewhat hard to do and can be punished fairly easily if you mess up. Ganon is incredibly good at punishing landings because of quick, huge horizontal distance movers. Wizkick, DA, and Gerudo all punish landing options very well. Basically, opponents landing options are reduced to attack and air dodge, and they are able to mix a little DI in there for variety. Low level land chasing is probably the best of because their options are even more restricted. If they air dodge, they can get punished, if they attack they can get could get lag and be punished, and their DI is limited to a small distance. The best examples for forcing opponents into this position are D-throw and D-tilt.

D-Throw: Ganondorf's D-throw perfectly represents his land chasing game. Keep in mind most low level land chasing is done at *gasp!* low percentages. I'll leave you to figure out which moves work best with different paths the opponent takes. But I do have opinions. Wizkick works very well for anyone trying to DI away/air dodge, as does Gerudo. I use Gerudo mostly because I get a guaranteed D-tilt on a lot of people which resets the land chasing pretty much, but Wizkick covers more distance. Really you have a lot of options concerning air dodges, like smash or re-grab, but I've found the first two to be the most effective. If they attack while DIing away, wait for the opportune moment and counter attack, or try to plow through them with DA. Any type of counter attack or air dodge with inwards DI can either be shielded and punished, or just plain punished as you see fit, go nuts. The key to Dthrow chasing is a little bit of patience. Wait to see their actions, you have time.

D-Tilt: D-tilt is pretty much the same concept as D-throw except for a few small differences. For one, the trajectory is going to be pretty close to you, and it's going to be slightly easier to counter attack. However they are put into a bit more hitstun giving you better options. Plus, D-tilt land chasing is going to end at an earlier percent because it knocks back further. After D-tilt, had the most success with another D-tilt, gerudo, DA re-grab, Wizkick, and jab.

You can chase them even if they go high into the air. Just wait for them to come back down and get close to the ground. Then wait to punish their landing with either Wizkick or Gerudo. Wizkick works best for me due to the distance it covers. Learn to incorporate land chasing.

• Movement [VD]


That's right, I'm telling you how to move... Don't move like this and you'll suck. Actually, I would love input on this because I think the way Ganon moves and flows is pretty important. He has a horrible run and an even worse foxtrot, so I think there are few correct ways to move with him... There are certainly incorrect ways. The reason his foxtrot and run are as bad as they are, is that while foxtrot is quick, it's very short range and it takes so god **** long to actually be able to shield. If they're good spacers they can seriously take advantage of this and get free hits in. It also takes a long time for Ganondorf's run to kick in after the original foxtrot animation. Meaning it's sometimes hard to go into shield or Wizkick before you get hit.

Stone Feet): Be a statue. Ganondorf's primary strengths reside on the ground with his quick tilts and jabs, so why leave? You should definitely be walking a lotwhile on the ground, allowing you to powershield any projectile, and be able to execute any move. Running can get you into trouble if they are in range, and foxtrot should probably be limited to quickly dashing away and countering with a pivoted tilt/F-smash. I change my style to this a lot whenever projectiles come into play. But it still works well for a lot of people.

Airborne (lotsa DJing): Personally, I've only seen two people use DJs as much as they should outside of me (Jekyll and Finn.). Ganondorf is a character who uses baiting as a pseudo-approach as he doesn't have a solid one himself (That might be giving him too much credit.). You space yourself inside the opponent's range, taunt the shit out of them and test the waters, then capitalize on any retaliation they try to make. Not literally a taunt of course, but what better way to bait than using his DJs? Punish, when they take the bait, with spaced Fairs, gerudo, stomp, wizkick, or air dodge down if you need to. You can reduce w lot of risk by fast falling into a tilt or DA too. I kinda have a specific pattern to my movement :p. I change it up obviously because then it would be easy to predict if I didn't. But from standing I foxtrot forward a little, jump, DJ almost immediately, land, repeat. Lol doesn't sound special but it works for me. I have pretty much all my options available and fake them out with DJs, but that's me.

BDC (Buffered Dash Canceling): For info on what this is, check out the tech section. This is basically something that could easily be implemented into Ganon's game in the near future. Just a quick summary, it's buffering a dash out of an autocancel or air dodge, followed by a jump, canceling this animation. With this you can advance fairly smoothly with air dodges, or you do all kinds of cool things with spacing aerials. Again, check the tech section for more info.

Figure out what works for you and let me know. This is more of a "do each his own" section, so I'll be glad to add any methods you might have.

• Recovery/Recovering from Hanging [VREC]

Well, this shouldn't be a big section. I might update it a little more as more methods come around, but as of now, you are limited with Ganon's crappy recovery. Personally, I'm more interested in Ganon's methods of getting back on the stage from hanging. One thing to be well aware of with Ganon's recovery is the RCO lag he experiences. Every time you sweetspot the ledge, you will get the full 16 frames of landing lag when you next touch the ground. As far as I can tell, there is no way of effectively getting rid of this other than using it up. If you do a landed aerial, the aerials lag will take over and you'll only get that lag. Wizkick landing landing does not get rid of it, and you will still get the lag on your next landing.

Regular Options): He has a few tactics to contribute to his slow *** getting back on the stage. First of all, his <100% edge attack is actually pretty **** good. It has a disjoincted hitbox, great range, can cut under shields, is fast, can clear the area, and puts them off the stage if they're close enough. Don't be too afraid to use this when you'r under 100%. Rolls and just plain get ups from the ledge are both great below 100%, any other time you're asking to be screwed.

From Ledge Jump): You have a couple of options from ledge jump as well, including wizkick and gerudo. Just ledge jump and time a wizkick into their face (or DJ first to fake them out) or time a gerudo just at ground level to take them by surprise and pummel them into the ground. Overall, Gerudo is a very good option because it's fast and goes right through shields. Just be careful with being predictable because it can be punished fairly easily. Same goes with ledge jump>wizkick, it's kinda fast but even more punishable than gerudo and can be seen sooner. Be careful with either of these options.

Air dodging and aerials onto the ledge): When ledge hopping with Ganondorf you'll notice that you can't actually get back to the stage with it. His edge hop is really low and it seems like you can't reliably get onto the ledge with aerials. However, this low edge hop height actually works to Ganon's advantage. If you get the timing down, ledge hop, then DI an aerial just over the edge. You can land U-airs, D-airs, F-airs, and B-airs onto the ledge but with all their lag. Much more practical and useful is a ledge hop into an air dodge DI'd into the stage. This gives you slight invincibility frames, along with putting you straight into standing on the ledge, free to grab, shield, jab, or what have you. The main thing to worry about in this circumstance is Ganon's RCO lag, which can put you in write a tricky spot if you're not careful.

Ledge Jump>iDJ (Instant Double Jump): Unlike Melee, in Brawl you are able to cancel your ledge jump any time after a certain point during a ledge jump. This is useful in creating a decent pseudo-edge hop (because Ganon doesn't have a great regular one.) Useful things out of this include lagless d-airs right over the stage and an alternate method of edgeguarding. Take a full look at it from DADs Lab. All credit goes to him for being awesome and doing a huge write up with a video.

Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process
  1. Grab the ledge
  2. Ledge Hop using Y, X, or Up on the control stick
  3. Immediately use your second jump while either DIing away from the stage, into the stage, or applying no DI to jump straight up and re-grab the ledge
  4. If "smoke/dust" appears below Ganon's feet, you iDJed too late. If ONLY two DJ rings appear below Ganon's feet, you iDJed perfectly.
  5. With no DI, a Ledge Hop -> iDJ will re-grab the ledge. If he lands on the stage, you iDJed too late. Practice this to optimize the timing for your Ledge Hop -> iDJ.

Application
My introductory video is 90% instructional and 10% practical. That is, don't watch the video hoping to see how you might apply Ledge Hop -> iDJ to your play style; watch it in order to learn this tech's process. The applications of this move are still being investigated. I'll be adding more to this application section as the discussion progresses.

With NO DI, one has a number of options. My first thought was to figure out a way for Ganon to "plank" on the ledge, forcing an approach. This hasn't really come to fruition, but nonetheless, we have a few options. NAir and UAir both have applications if your opponent is on stage. You may need to use an Aerial Gerudo to instantly re-grab the ledge if your iDJ is very low to the stage. FAir can be used situationally and may similarly require an Aerial Gerudo or Up+B to re-grab the ledge. If an opponent is recovering from below, one can use DAir after the iDJ to **** the ledge. Doing this as opposed to Ledge Drop -> DJ DAir gives you more flexibility. If you use the c-stick, you will probably FF. If you hold down while performing your iDJ and just tap A while falling, you won't FF. Both inputs have their application. BAir and UAir can both serve to edge guard. You'll have a different range than you would by Ledge Hopping -> UAir/BAir or Ledge Dropping -> UAir/BAir. With the addition of the iDJ BAir, UAir, Ganon's range of edge guarding with just the tipman or BAir is pretty amazing.

While DIing Away from the stage, one mostly alters their edge guarding range against opponents recovering laterally or from below. Both BAir and Uair (with or without FF) obviously serve to edge guard. Once can also FAir to cover a pretty nice range beyond the ledge, but you will need to Up+B to re-grab the ledge. DAir can, of course, spike to hell and back. As a method of getting rid of RCO Lag or Ganonciding, one can DI away and use Aerial Gerudo onto the stage, to re-grab the ledge, or to choke your opponent into the void.

Finally, and arguably most importantly, whle DIing into the stage, one has a handful of very potent options. First and foremost, as shown in the video, Ganon can AC DAir. You can catch taller opponents (Samus, Snake...) or just use it to space a buffered followup. Any (reverse) buffered move you might use under normal circumstances can be used here as well. If you have RCO Lag, you obviously won't be able to buffer. BAir can be ACed and can be used if you jump over your opponent. You will probably have to FF this move due to BAir's bizarre hitbox, but given that BAir is often very fresh, this has great KO potential, and the landing lag from the FF BAir would likely be of no import. Tippering a FF UAir will push your opponent onto the ledge setting them up for a ledge/stage spike. NAir and FAir have their uses, but they don't seem so great. As some have pointed out, DIing in is indeed a way to use the Infinite Second Jump Recovery glitch. I've managed to ISJR with DAir, and Air Dodge, which leads me to my next point. Not only is Air Dodging a good Ledge->Stage approach option, you can indeed perform a Flight of Ganon. The use I see here would be DAir at higher perecentages -> ISJR FoG -> UAir off the top of the stage. Imagine the humiliation.​

Notes
  • At >100%, a Ledge Hop occurs slower than normally. You will have to adjust your timing accordingly. Honestly, at >100%, I generally will just opt for a soft Ledge Drop->Air Dodge onto stage since pretty much everything is so freaking slow for Ganon at that point.
  • Blad's Bouncing "Combo" can be set up here pretty easily via AC DAir -> UAir. In theory, this is pretty beautiful because not only can it rack up damage pretty nicely, it might push the opponent onto the ledge for a spike. The problem is, the Bouncing "Combo" can still be teched. :urg:

• Edgeguarding [VF]


If they don't have a crazy good recovery, as soon as they fly off that edge you better be pursuing them and sending them straight into the abyss. Ganon really only has a few techniques to prevent his opponents from getting back to the ledge, but **** they're effective ones.

U-Air Tipman
: The staple of your edgeguarding game. Use this a lot when they go off the edge. Learn to fast fall it and get back, pull off double U-airs, or even U-air>DJ stomp. Anyone with even a slightly less than good recovery can be completely eaten alive by these, so use them and use them well. They have good range and knock your opponent back at a downward angle, allowing for an edgehog or whatever you want.

Stomp: Well duh, it's Ganon's balls to the wall (or ground) spike. There's no advice I can really give on spiking them other than to learn the hitbox and see what works >.>. Oh, and when they are hanging from the ledge, auto canceled stomps can destroy rolls, get ups, and ledge attacks. Try Tipman>DJ stomp... veeery satisfying.

F-Air
: This is becoming a lot more used as an edgeguard for me now, as it does really well off-stage in certain circumstances. Probably my most used method for getting this off stage is to run off the stage and go directly into a F-air. The reason this happens to be so good is because it has great range and priority and doesn't require much set up even though it covers a large distance off stage. It can take a lot of people by surprise by coming out quick and hitting them far away, when they thought you could only turn around to set up tipman. The one drawback to this tactic is that you barely make it back with your DJ and UpB. This means you definitely cannot overuse this, as your opponent will catch on and edgeguard you.

• Strings [VSTR]


I've heard the word "strings" tossed around a lot, and even though I thought of it first (>_>), I won't give credit to myself. Basically, there are very few true guaranteed combos in brawl, but many strings of attacks. Strings are escapable, but they're designed to keep the opponent at a disadvantage and keep your momentum going. This section will give you a few to all examples of a lot of Ganondorf's more powerful strings.

Stomp>U-Smash/U-Air: This is seen as one of the 'Dorf's main staples. It's pretty good, but that doesn't mean it can't be interrupted. Stomp>u-air is pretty consistent past 0%, and is guaranteed on a lot of people. Dragmire was nice enough to make us a fancy list, boy do I love lists. This is all from 0% using ACed stomp.

Alrighty then I got the list completed for who is hittable by Dair Usmash and more

These chars can be hit by Dair Usmash Uair

:mario2:
:bowser2:
:diddy:
:ganondorf:
:pikachu2:
:ivysaur:
:fox:

People who can only be hit by Dair Usmash

:wario:
:peach:
:yoshi2:
:zerosuitsamus:
:pit:
:rob:
:charizard:
:ness2:
:lucas:
:sonic:

people who can be hit under certain circumstances

:dk2: has to powershield
:link2: has to powershield
:dedede: has to ground tech

People who can easily airdodge or shield it

:falco:
:luigi2:
:zelda:
:shiek:
:toonlink:
:popo: why'd I even test this :confused:
:samus2:
:kirby:
:olimar:
:metaknight:
:wolf:
:falcon:
:squirtle:
:lucario:
:jigglypuff:
:ike:
:gw:
:snake:
Gerudo>D-Tilt...Follow Up: At lower percents, this is one of Ganondorf's staple strings. Tacks on decent damage, and the opponent really has to think and predict well what his next move should be. Gerudo into d-tilt hits quite a lot of people (for reference check the Gerudo section) and you can follow it up well at low percents. Gerudo>d-tilt>Gerudo>d-tilt is one of my favorites, you can also follow it up with another d-tilt, grab, f-smash, DA, u-air, or even wizkick if they decide to roll back. The key is timing and figuring out what works best in certain situations.

Bouncing Combo:

I. The combo

I've discovered a new kind of combo with Dair, that seems to work fine on heavies. I call it the "Bouncing Combo". (EDIT : Bounce Combo is maybe better :p)

How to do the boucing combo ? It works great on heavies, since they can't jump / attack from a fresh Dair at 0%.
From 0%, you just have to :
1) Dair
2) While he's boucing on the ground, do a Tipman Uair.
3) This will result in a second bounce. After this, the opponent can't do anything but get up normally (without attack). So basically you can do what you want from that.


II. Bouncing Combo possibilities

Let's sum up the possibilities you have with the "Boucing Combo".
  • Dair > Tipper Uair (aka Boucing combo) > FSmash (= 52%)
  • Bouncing Combo > Flame Choke (37%) > Techchase
  • Boucing Combo > Grab
  • Boucing Combo > Dair > UAir (63 % !) / Bair (67% !). And this is a true combo !
  • Boucing Combo > Dair > USmash... 72% !! It's a true combo, but is DIable.
  • Boucing Combo > Anything you want ^_^ (Force palm works too, but is not really useful)
  • (Alternative) Boucing Combo > FTilt / Jab > Techchase (Very hard to tech that)

III. Escaping the Combo

  • The Dair can be teched. The Uair will probably touch if they just tech (without techrolling), but won't set up good follows-up...
  • A lot of the possibilities can be DIed out.

The problem of this combo is that the first Dair can be teched. But if you opponent misses it... He will regret it ;P

IV. The videos


Strong DA>Follow Up
: More than anything, the sweetspot of dash attack is just a great launcher that sets up well for a reverse u-air, b-air, or any sort of land chase. Just be careful of them DIing back into you with a counter attack. But you can still stomp or pivot attack those attempts. People still airdodge into the ground quite a bit, hell I do too. One of my favorite follow ups after sweetspot DA is gerudo to catch them right after the airdodge.
Sour spot dash attack does a good job of setting them up right behind you for a turn around grab, or even stomp or reverse u-air.

The “Z1gman” Combo: This is not a technically a recent discovery, but one of the more recent ones. Credit goes completely to Z1GMA for discovering this (hence its name) and to DAD whose wonderful write up I’m about to steal. It’s not that I’m last, just that I couldn’t do it any better. But, in short, zigman comboing is the act of using the weak back hit (tipman) of your u-air, to slide the opponent of the edge of the stage. They are put into a freefall state, and instead of landing on the ground, you DI over the ledge, following up with an aerial. For the full information, you really need to check the write up DAD has done.
Related Topics/Videos
Concept and Process (developed by Z1GMA)
  1. Your opponent must be fairly close to the ledge
  2. With your back facing the opponent, SH Tipman UAir the opponent so he falls from the stage, but does not ledge grab.
  3. Do not land on the ground. Immediately after connecting with the Tipman, DI beyond the ledge, following your falling opponent.
  4. Without fast falling, input a DAir. We're not 100% sure, but it appears that after the Tipman, the opponent is in some free-fall animation for a long enough duration of time that your DAir will connect before they regain control. This obviously needs testing.
  5. As shown in the video, there are many other followups to the Tipman, but since DAir is the meat of the discovery, the rest you can figure out by watching Z1GMA's awesome video or by testing on your own.
  6. In terms of button input, I've found this to be optimal to avoid the fast fall, though Z1GMA should feel free to correct me here. Short Hop with X/Y. Tipman UAir with C-Stick up while DIing with the control stick DOWN and AWAY from the ledge at 45 degrees (similarly to how you might Thunderstorm while moving laterally). While still holding DOWN on the control stick, DAir with C-Stick down. Continuing to hold DOWN during the DAir prevents Fast Falling.
  7. While washing the blood of your dead opponent from your hands, thank Z1GMA and pray for forgiveness for the murder of thine enemies.

Application
...
For ease of writing - and in the interest of giving credit where credit's due - I suggest we refer to this concept as Z1gman Comboing (get it?). This combo relies on the suggestion that after a Tipman which pushes the opponent from the stage, it appears that the opponent enters a free-fall from which he can not escape for a certain number of frames. This is NOT confirmed, and everything contained hereafter should be taken as hypothetical (but then again, that's what DSL is all about). Obviously if this is a "true" combo, we'll call it a combo, and if it's not, we'll call it a string or something.

The most immediate application is also the most obvious. If your opponent is at the edge, RAR approach with a Tipman that passes by the ledge and DAir him. Some of the other, easily achievable strings are:
  • Tipman UAir -> UAir -> Rising UAir -> Up B Ledge Grab
  • Tipman UAir -> Footstool -> DJ Ledge Grab
The list of strings could go on forever, but I'd rather not flood this applications section with hypothetical strings before we confirm that Z1gman Comboing indeed has GUARANTEED followups.

As shown in the video at around 0:45, after a Get Up Attack from a hanging opponent, you can transition nicely into a Z1gman Combo. Z1gma also shows how you can read a Tech following a Gerudo near the ledge at around 0:50, and if your opponent ends up with proper spacing from the ledge, you can use a Z1gman Combo to chase his Tech after the Gerudo. It has yet to be seen how much flexibility there is in Z1gman Comboing as a Tech Chasing possibility, but it would seem that an quick turn Tipman would work in conjunction with Gerudos which leave Ganon facing the ledge. As a side note: bear in mind how you might use this technique in conjunction with Chainchoking.

In the interest of bringing together some of the concepts contained in DSL, one might consider how you could use Buffered Dash Canceling (see section below) in its various permutations in conjunction with Zigman Comboing. For instance, using BDCed UAirs in sequence to Tipman your opponent to the edge. I'd be getting far ahead of myself if I try to explain some of the more exciting prospects I see in how BDC and Z1gman Comboing might work in tandem, but don't worry, all the necessary information for these ideas will be posted soon. I have to work out the details of my next video which involves the Spot Dodge, first. Things will be getting really crazy thereafter. :lick: Expect a significant update to this application section if my ideas come to fruition (which they WILL, because they're just too good.)​

Notes
  • This seems to work excellently at low percentages. Tipman UAir -> DAir appears to be a guaranteed followup at 0%. We don't yet know what percentages are optimal, nor to we know how a diminished/stale UAir will effect this string/combo.
  • Z1gman = THE man
[/INDENT]

More Stomp Strings
: Stomp>u-air is one of your staple stomp combos, it's the most reliable thing to go to. But there are a lot of other options out of it that aren't guaranteed, but have a lot of reward. Stomp>stomp at early percents is the first thing that comes to mind. It puts on more than 40% but it can honestly be tricky to use, as there are many options that go against it. Most characters can attack out of it, and everyone can airdodge out of it or land and spotdodge and shield it. It comes down a lot to timing, so really it's just a trap. Remember that it's sometimes better to dash away really quick and come back with a stomp to punish any attack attempts. You have to be careful with this follow up, but the rewards are obvious.

Probably one of my new favorites is stomp>gerudo at lower percents. DI a stomp away as soon as you hit them, then pivot a gerudo or whatever you need to do to have it hit them. They have really limited options about what to do about it. Airdodge then spot dodge works but the timing is a bit strict. If you hit them with a stomp while they're in the air and they miss the tech (which they often do) congrats because you just got a free d-tilt.

Experiment, the stomp is not only useful for its damage and punishing ability but also for putting the opponent in a tight spot. Just test out what will work in certain situations and what won't. One thing that I cannot stress enough is that don't be afraid to shield after stomp! No shame in hit and run >.>.


VI. Important Techs & Their Application

• Wizkick Cancel [VIWKC]


The Tech: The wizkick cancel is doing ganon's grounded Wizard Foot (DownB) at a certain point on the stage, towards the edge. If you space it right, the ground animation should just come to a halt as you pass over the edge, canceling all lag and putting you over the edge for an aerial, DJ aerial, or Gerudo back towards the stage.

Application: WKC becomes a hell of a lot more useful over time, and after you explore Ganon more, ganondorf's run sucks... it really sucks. And it will take a while to get from the middle of the stage to the end of the stage to pursue someone who is off the ledge. WKC allows Ganon to better follow up his attack that hits off the edge with edgeguarding, and not having to run all the way with a rod shoved up his a**. People will learn to watch out for it but it still takes many by surprise for a quick fast falled U-air or a DJ D-air. You will start to get a feel for the distance in which the wizkick cancels after you use it a lot, but it definitely helps to use landmarks. Find certain locations on the stage where Wizard's Foot cancels if you start it there, and find ways to remember it. On Final Destination it is usually inside the closest point of the middle diamond. Battlefield and Smashville are both approximately the middle of the stage, and you can cancel it off the wing on Corneria by starting wizkick where the slope starts. Experiment and know your locations.

• Buffering/Reverse Buffering [VIBFFR]

Reverse Buffering with Ganon

Everyone should know what buffering is and how it got added into Brawl, if you input a command during the ending frames of a previous action, the input will be executed on the first frame possible. Chances are you already use buffering and reverse buffering. You d-air then press A before you hit the ground, you get a jab immediately after. You do a RAR u-air and f-tilt the other direction (not exactly reverse buffering, but close enough.) You can buffer any command in this game though, including turning the other direction. Push the d-stick the opposite direction during an ACed aerial before you hit the ground, and you turn around asap. This is way more useful than it sounds.

Ganon has a pretty **** good retreating aerial game. His b-air has really nice priority and snuffs a lot of incoming aerials, and his tipman u-air covers a good area, has decent priority, and leads to other things as many people know. People still tend to rush in or let their guard down after these autocanceled aerials because they can usually punish. F-tilt after these is pretty punishable too.

This is where reverse buffering is really f*cking nice to use (it's nice for advancing with these aerials too.) Tipman u-airs and b-airs into d-tilts and jabs are really nice, catch people by surprise when they let their guard down and help you create a more solid retreat and approach. It's obvious you can get Gerudo and DA the other direction, but you can also reverse buffer wizards foot!

(1) The Jab

Reverse jab is really nice to cover your *** on ACed aerials and keeps people away as well as annoys the opponent. The input is simple, (I will let you figure out the right timing for yourself) before you land during the ending of your aerial, slightly hold the opposite direction, let go, then press A. To be honest it's something you get the feel of yourself but that's basically the input.

(2) D-Tilt

When you hit c-stick down at a certain point in aerials (timing isn't too strict) you get a d-tilt instead of a d-smash. So, hit the opposite direction, c-stick down during the end of the aerial. Be wary that too early=fastfall (very bad), too late=d-smash (not as bad, but still pretty bad.) I use this the most. Has the most reach, can poke under shields, actually fairly safe if you know what you're doing, and pops up for u-airs. I back my aerials up with this all the f*cking time.

(3) Wizard's Kick

Wizard's Kick is a pretty hard one actually, I don't have it down all the way just yet. But you catch airdodgers coming down to the ground after an aerial, can immediately fly across the stage in the opposite direction for kick cancel, spam reverse aerials far away then all of the sudden hit them with a kick from half the stage, and other goodies. Harder because you have to hit two directional inputs within a very short time frame, opposite and vB. I'm pretty sure you can't quarter circle it.

Dash Attack

This one doesn't seem difficult at first, but that's because it happens on accident a lot. Turns out it's slightly hard to recreate intentionally. I've found their are two methods that seem to work decently for this, but not consistently yet. The problem is that you have to buffer the turnaround, the dash forward, and the c-stick down all before you land. The two methods I've found is double tapping the d-stick in a direction and hitting c-stick down before landing, and holding d-stick in a direction then c-stick down. Actually, both these methods are consistent as long as you get the timing down, so practice. If you mess up the timing you get d-smash...not good. This might prove to be one of the more useful reverse buffers...seeing as it's as fast as d-tilt (though I'm not sure if a turnaround animation has any frames on it) and has really good horizontal movement.

Whew...longer than I thought. Basically get the timing down yourselves, just takes a bit of practice. Remember there is a difference in timing when you hit them and don't hit them. Honestly it's a very simple technique that probably a lot of people know, but it's very useful to Ganon. It pretty much just backs up his awkward aerial hitboxes that dont hit people on the ground without lagging, and gives him a way of advancing with his tilts. It catches anybody that lets their guard down and makes his defense and even his approach a little bit better.
• BDC (Buffered Dash Cancel) [VIBDC]

The Tech: BDC works pretty much in the same way that regular buffering or reverse buffering does. I mean...it's all buffering really. Basically the method of doing this effectively is to do an autocancel or air dodge, then before landing, buffer a dash in followed by a jump. The jump will cancel the dash completely while sliding you forward a bit.
Concept and Process
  1. Perform a Dash.
  2. While still holding the direction in which you Dashed, Jump.
  3. As you land, buffer another Dash in either direction.
  4. Repeat as steps 2 and 3.
  5. You can perform any ACing aerial instead of the jump. This includes (subjectively ordered in terms of relevance): Air Dodge, UAir, BAir, DAir.
Credit goes completely to DAD for bringing this to our attention. Go to his lab for more details and videos.

Application: Go up to the movement section for most of my info about the application. It seems very useful in maneuvering with air dodges in order to advance. It also seems pretty helpful for spacing out aerials such as tipman and b-air. Experiment and see what you can find. In the mean time, go HERE for more info.

• Pivoting [VIPVT]

The Tech: Useful spacing technique for mostly defense. True pivoting is done by tapping the control stick away then very quickly tapping it away and then back. If done right it results in a foxtrot followed by a a turn around animation into a neutral stance. You'll probably understand it a bit better by going to THIS THREAD.

Application: Incredibly useful when paired with f-smash. It allows you to retreat a good distance while immediately turning around and covering that distance and more with an elbow to the face. Thankfully with a c-sticked f-smash, you don't have to hit back on the control stick. Just foxtrot away, hit away then c-stick back. Useful for punishing any stupid approach or especially a get up attack after gerudo. Jab is probably the other useful attack out of pivot, as it's a decent spacing tool.

• Reverse Boost Grabbing [VIRBG]


The Tech: Dash away while immediately hitting c-stick down, then back and grab. This results in a very slight backward momentum with a pivoted grab.

Application: For starters, Ganon's grab range is horrible. On top of that he really doesn't have a strong game at extremely close range. Any attack you use can be shielded than punished heavily. Reverse boost grabbing is helpful in getting back to a decent range while extending your grab range a bit. Especially if your back is turned in close range. Spot dodge an attack, the whip out a reverse boost grab to get them in your clutches.

• C-Sticking vs A-Sticking [VICVSA]


First off, a-sticking is setting the c-stick to tilt attacks. Therefore hitting forward on it will do f-tilt, down d-tilt, and so on. Different people will prefer different settings, I still use c-stick on smash, and I know Jekyll uses a-stick. There are a lot of pros and cons to each, so I really don't think that one is better than the other. I'll list the pros and cons of each though to help you decide on which to use.

C-Stick

Pros
  • A bit easier to pivot f-smash
  • U-Smash whenever easily
  • Not as buggy

Cons
  • Harder to pivot anything but f-smash, near impossible to pivot d-tilt
  • Auto fast fall on c-sick down can complicate just a bit
  • F-tilt follow up after gerudo is harder

A-Stick

Pros
  • Pivot anything a lot easier
  • Gerudo follow ups will be slightly easier (f-tilt)
  • No auto fast fall

Cons
  • Can be pretty buggy at times, causing n-airs and jumps in bad spots
  • Pivot f-smash is just a bit harder
  • U-smashes are definitely harder to do on the fly
  • Accidentaly u-tilting sucks :p

• Super Ganon Jump/Flight of Ganon [VISGJ]

The Tech: A hard command to do for a while, but becomes significantly easier with time and practice. In a nutshell, it's inputting Down B and jump exactly one frame before you land. The easiest and really only way to do it effectively is to buffer it in some way. An into-the-stage wizkick cancel or quick DJ air dodge are the most effective methods. The result is being propelled high into the air (without your second jump.) This only works over the stage. Go HERE for full info and videos

Application: In all honesty, it's not an incredibly important or applicable technique, but it's here by request. Using it to follow up after a stomp or high percent u-smash that doesn't kill is very useful, as is chasing Snake and DDD into the air as they're recovering.

~Related Threads~
DAD's Smash Lab
List of All Techs/Frame Data
Sliq is Amazing and So Can You!
The Dutchman Testing Thread
Reverse Buffering and Frame Data


:coolmonke VII. Gerudo :coolmonke​

• Gerudo>Original Follow Ups [VIIA]

All of the original follow ups to gerudo in their glory, jab, d-tilt, and f-tilt. A lot of Ganondorf's will like to tech chase over guaranteed options, but when it comes down to it, it is really nice to have these in your arsenal. I will tech chase if I feel confidant in where they're going to go. Then I'll throw out maybe another gerudo to add on some damage then use my guaranteed follow up. In the right situations every one of these follow ups are devastating. Jab helps out with some quick damage, and pushing people with poor to average recoveries (or anyone really) right over the edge for an edgeguard. D-tilt is just amazing for traps and setting up at early percents. F-tilt, while somewhat difficult to get off perfectly, just obliterates people off the side at nasty angles, and can screw up some recoveries. Learn every single follow up and what works on certain people in what situations. It may seem ridiculous to learn follow ups for 37 characters but you get the hang of it after playing Ganondorf a while.

Jekyll made this awesome thread a while back that explains what is guaranteed on what character.

.....The List.....

This is a list, similar to the one that can already be found somewhere on SWF, that simply lists what characters WILL be hit by a certain followup. Once again, whether or not they DI and ROLL is completely irrelevant. Characters are listed in roster order and some characters may appear on more than one list(because they're hit by more than one followup.

The D-Tilt:
  1. Mario
  2. Zero Suit Samus
  3. Kirby
  4. Fox
  5. Pikachu






  6. Mr. Game and Watch
  7. Luigi
  8. Diddy
  9. Zelda
  10. Shiek
  11. Pit
  12. Meta Knight
  13. Ivysuar
  14. Charizard
  15. Ike
  16. Peach
  17. Yoshi
  18. Ice Climbers
  19. King Dedede
  20. Ness
  21. Sonic
  22. Toon Link
  23. R.O.B.
  24. Capt. Olimar
  25. Capt. Falcon
  26. Jigglypuff
  27. Lucas

The F-Tilt:
  1. Kirby
  2. Pikachu
  3. Mr. Game and Watch
  4. Luigi
  5. Diddy
  6. Meta Knight
  7. Ivysuar
  8. Charizard
  9. Ike
  10. Yoshi
  11. Ice Climbers
  12. King Dedede
  13. Toon Link
  14. R.O.B.
  15. Capt. Olimar
  16. Jigglypuff

The Jab:
  1. Donkey Kong
  2. Link
  3. Samus
  4. Kirby
  5. Mr. Game and Watch
  6. Diddy
  7. Pit
  8. Meta Knight
  9. Ivysuar
  10. Charizard
  11. Ike
  12. Snake
  13. Yoshi
  14. Ice Climbers
  15. King Dedede
  16. Bowser
  17. R.O.B.
  18. Capt. Olimar
  19. Jigglypuff


The Groups​

Next up, I've separated all of the characters into 5 groups. Groups 1-3 contain characters that have a GUARANTEED follow-up.

The characters in Group 1 have no self-esteem. You can do whatever you want with them, and they'll like it.

Group 2 contains characters that have a follow-up that isn't guaranteed to work, but two that are.

Group 3, if you haven't guessed, has characters that Ganon can only use a single follow-up on if he wants a guaranteed hit.

Group 4 is made up of characters who can only be hit by a follow-up in certain situations(when they use certain DI). If any of these characters know the match-up with Ganon well, then you'll never land any sort of follow-up after the Murder Choke.

Group 5 makes me sick. They're the characters that you will only be able to hit with a follow up when they choose to get up and attack. Even then, in most cases, your D-Tilt is the only thing that will hit the skinny S.O.B.s.

This info may seem irrelevant to some, but if I didn't think it was good to know, I wouldn't have included it. :p Here they are:

Group 1: All follow-ups are GUARANTEED.
  • Kirby
  • Mr. Game and Watch
  • Diddy
  • Meta Knight
  • Ivysaur
  • Charizard
  • Ike
  • Yoshi
  • Ice Climbers
  • King Dedede
  • R.O.B.
  • Capt. Olimar
  • Jigglypuff

Have 2 GUARANTEED follow-ups.
Group 2:

  • Pikachu (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)
  • Luigi (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)
  • Pit (D-Tilt, Jab)
  • Toon Link (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)

Group 3: Only have 1 GUARANTEED follow-up.
  • Mario (D-Tilt)
  • Donkey Kong (Jab)
  • Link (Jab)
  • Samus (Jab)
  • Zero Suit Samus (D-Tilt)
  • Fox (D-Tilt)
  • Zelda (D-Tilt)
  • Shiek (D-Tilt)
  • Snake (Jab)
  • Peach (D-Tilt)
  • Ness (D-Tilt)
  • Sonic (D-Tilt)
  • Bowser (Jab)
  • Capt. Falcon (D-Tilt)
  • Lucas (D-Tilt)

Group 4: Situational follow-ups (see chart).
  • Marth
  • Squirtle
  • Wolf
  • Wario

Group 5: No follow-ups. D-Tilt only when they try to attack.
  • Falco
  • Ganondorf
  • Lucario

.....The Chart.....​
• Gerudo>iDA (instant Dash Attack) [VIIB]

In addition to having the normal tilt and jab follow ups, Ganon's DA is actually quick to hit characters on the ground after Gerudo. This to me is honestly an easy buffer once you get the hang of it. You have to use the iDA version though, which is pretty much slam the control stick to the side and then almost immediately hit the c-stick down. I personally love this because it kills early, and is guaranteed on just about as many people as D-Tilt is.

Just know though, that DA decays at a very high rate. Two uses in a row can make this moves KO potential go down 15%. Because of this I now will put in kill percents next to the people who it will always hit. Keep in mind these are starting percents. This means that I tested it on FD where they were set to control. This means no DI, and no momentum canceling. Hence the starting percent that they get killed, they aren't guaranteed to get killed at this percent...but it's likely. I will later do the ones who can DI, because I still use it on them :p. These percents are before gerudo hits! BEFORE

Gerudo>iDA (instant Dash Attack) Data
---------------------
It seems to have the same startup and hit the same people as d-tilt, yet it is more susceptible to DI because the very beginning frames miss usually. I did the whole testing process in a very complicated manner, involving me, two controllers, and scotch tape.

Characters That Are Always Hit
:)

* Captain Falcon - 111%
* Charizard
* Diddy Kong - 96%
* Fox
* Ice Climbers
* Ike
* Ivysaur
* King Dedede
* Metaknight - 86%
* Olimar - 90%
* Peach - 90%
* Pikachu - 89%
* Pit - 98%
* ROB
* Sheik - 88%
* Sonic - 98%
* Toon Link
* Yoshi - 104%
* Zelda - 88%
* ZS Samus - 89%


Characters That Can DI in to Avoid

* Game & Watch
* Jigglypuff
* Kirby
* Lucas
* Luigi
* Mario
* Ness
* Squirtle
* Wario


The One Character That Has to DI Up or Away to Avoid


* Marth


*******s That Only Get Hit on GU Attack
:(

* Bowser
* Donkey Kong
* Falco
* Ganondorf
* Link
* Lucario
* Samus
* Snake
* Wolf



I did the testing a couple times through. Sets up for nice, guaranteed early kills, so this sh*t is **** good. I might test and put out a list of kill %'s for Gerudo>Shoulder before Gerudo lands, but I'm not sure...I might be lazy. It kills most <100%. There's a few like ROB, and DDD that only die after 100%. I know DDD dies at like 120%. Crazy guaranteed kills on MK at 85% :grin:
ONE LAST IMPORTANT FOLLOW UP: It is now known that d-smash is guaranteed on Olimar and only Olimar. This is useful for racking up a bit of damage.

• Using Gerudo [VIIC]


This is probably one of the most important aspects of Gerudo. As you start playing better players, you'll notice that it's harder and harder to land gerudo consistently. Just about every attack will go through it, and it'll get spot dodged like crazy. It's not an end-all move, so it's important to know which situations it will work best in. Gerudo's main strength is in punishing, and it also does extremely well in certain traps such as land chasing.

Punishment: Not too much to elaborate on here, it's punishing. Gerudo is 16 frames on start up, with a little bit more to go more distance. Since it's a tiny bit on the slow side, it's more for distance punishing instead of close range. When heavy attacks shield push you too far out of range for a normal attack, gerudo is always there to help. One of the main forms of punishing though would be to use it when they are in the middle of a move, timing it just right so you land it during their lag. Know what you can and can't punish with gerudo so you can make the most out of it

Land Chasing/Traps: Ah, my favorite. When landing, opponent's options are very limited in Brawl. Anticipate a landing and you can pretty much catch anyone in the middle of their airdodge into the ground, or even after they try to attack while falling. You have a few moves that put the opponent in a very tough spot, allowing you to get an easy gerudo off. D-air is one, it launches them just enough so it's hard to avoid a gerudo. The best and easiest set up for gerudo is d-tilt at earlier percents. D-tilt sets up perfectly and is probably one of your best ways for landing gerudo. This is helpful as d-tilt is guaranteed on many people after your Side B, so you can trap them a few times at early percents.

VIII. The Ganondorf Punishment/Safety Guide


Punishment

This is a section that I feel will be incredibly helpful in the long run. Lately, I've been seeing quite a bit of spot dodging/rolling from Ganondorfs. They seem to neglect what is very, very useful for Ganondorf, his shield. Some Ganons might disagree with this, but Ganondorf's out of shield skills are probably one of the more solid aspects of his game. It's got holes of course, and it isn't as strong as some of the other characters who have very strong shield games, but it's definitely better than people give it credit for.

Ganondorf's biggest strength is punishing the weak's mistakes, so why roll away from them or leave yourself with no advantage with a spot dodge? Obviously there are the opponents where you are going to need to avoid shielding too close to them (ICs, Falco, DDD, Yoshi, Pika.) The purpose of this section is to list techniques that Ganondorf can punish with, and what frame advantage that they can punish. What I mean by that, is that I will list a punishment technique, and put it under a certain number, such as -16 or -20. If you go a characters frame data, you will notice that they under certain moves, they will usually have a number for frame advantage (I'm ignoring shield drop frame advantage for simplicity.) If i list jab under -15, that means it will successfuly punish any move that has an frame advantage of -15 or more (ie -17, -20.) Now, it would be useful to list every characters move, and put what frame advantage advantage it is so you could see right here if it could be punished, but that is ridiculously annoying seeing as how thats over 350 moves or so. But I'm thinking that over time, I might add in a couple moves here and there that you'll see a lot more than others, but we'll see.

On to the list!

[-20] & Under

  • Grab** [-7]
  • OoS Quake AKA Jump instaDown-B [-10]
  • OoS U-Air* [-13]
  • OoS N-Air*/OoS Up-B [-14]
  • Jab [-15]
  • D-Tilt/F-Tilt/Dash Attack/OoS B-air [-17]

[-20] to [-30]

  • OoS U-Smash**/OoS F-Air [-21]
  • D-Smash [-22]
  • OoS D-Air/Side-B [-23]
  • F-Smash [-28]

* Out of shield aerials should be used mostly against opponents attacking your shield from the air. This is because some characters are just too short to get hit by U-Air or N-air. However characters that are big enough to get by them (more than you think,) go for it.

** Use judgement when using grab and OoS U-Smash. Remember that their range is limited, so sometimes they becomes less useful than other punishers.

Some Afterthoughts

When using moves such as Side B or Dash Attack to punish, realize that the move doesn't cover the whole distance it travels in a single frame. The advantages that I wrote down that they punish do so when the move hits on the first frame it comes out. If the opponent is farther away, Gerudo or Dash Attack is going to take longer to connect.

Quake punishes -10, one of his fastest, but remember one thing...it sucks. It's range is pretty much the range of grab (which also sucks,) and when you hit quake at lower percents (like below 60,) they usually get a free hit if they're smart. In other words, you pretty much always have better options.

Well, there you have it. Hopefully that will help some players realize that more moves are punishable than they think. I often see many players go in, and after their shield is attacked, many times they tend to go for OoS Stomp. I know this because I often do it as well. Stomp is one of your more rewarding moves to land, but sometimes it's much better to land something that you know is going to hit, and further get them to that gloriously low killing percent.

Safety

As you should already know by now, Ganondorf pretty much lacks anything that can go unpunished. He’s one hell of a punisher, but he also gets punished for a lot of the stuff he tries to pull off. Lately however, I’ve been investigating frame data and the like, and thinking of new ways to use old moves. I’ve been trying to investigate many moves that I think have potential, and learning the best spacing to achieve safety. The good news is that I’ve found some decently safe options. The bad news is that many of these options have holes, or that the spacing required is difficult. Still, I believe that every option should be explored if it means having safe approaches against shields and other defenses.

Now, I know that Big O has some frame advantage data in that big tech thread. But I figured that I would look into some of Ganondorf’s frame data myself to try and learn a few things. I’ve looked around, figured out how others have gotten their advantages and did a little researching into Ganondorf. I’m confident in my methods as I got many of the same numbers as Big O. I looked many times into Big O’s frame data, and while he certainly had advantages there, I was always a little bit upset that other things went untested. Having said that, I decided to test the main things that peaked my interest. These are only slightly rough. At the most, these numbers are off by one frame give or take. Keep in mind that all advantages are without shield drop.

One more thing. These advantages may seem like nothing special, but when these moves are properly used, they're set apart from other moves. When properly spaced, these moves have pretty d*mn good shield pushback. This prevents shield grabs for the most part (excluding probably link and t.link.)

Spaced B-Air



ADVANTAGE: -19/-18 at the most optimal

Probably one of the more useful moves on this list. Yes, this is with the landing lag. You must hit with the sweet spot around ganondorf's fist, or else the pushback won't take effect. If you need a visual,
you can also look up in the moves section. There's a picture of b-air's sweet spot (the blue) by its description. Try to practice your spacing with double jumps and such.
This can still be used against shorter characters, due to it's downward-esque hitbox. So it's still possible, but just a hell of a lot harder against characters like Oli & Pika.
Only problem is that spacing b-airs is way easier against overly defensive opponents. If they take the offensive it's much harder, but then again Ganondorf has other tools for that.
Plus, you can mix it up with double jumping then airdodging to the ground.

Spaced F-Air



ADVANTAGE: -20 at the most optimal

Great range, and and awesome arcing hitbox. Like b-air however, you must hit with the sweet spot around ganondorf's fist. I don't have a visual reference for the hitbox though,
so just get used to the spacing. It can arc over a lot of moves too. Even though it has much better range than b-air and a useful hitbox, you're pretty much screwed if you whiff,
or if they powershield or spotdodge. It has takes 16 frames for the good hitbox to come out, but is a bit less telegraphed than b-air. You can also try dash dancing
to mix up b-airs, f-airs, even grabs and flame choke.

Cross-Up D-Air



ADVANTAGE: -12

Obviously hard to tell from the picture. But what I'm doing is starting an AC d-air from the left side of MK, and end up hitting his shield on the right side.

This is one of the moves that I feel has a hell of a lot of potential. This is mainly due to the fact that it's f*cking -12 on shield. I consider that to be pretty good, and not just for Ganondorf. It's basically just the same concept as crossing over other moves that are vulnerable to shield grab. (ie Fox's d-air, pika's/ness' fair) According to Big O's frame data, a regular AC d-air is -17 on block when you hit at the earliest on shield. This is not great, especially when Ganondorf is left hanging in the air like an idiot. He is vulnerable to shield grab, OoS u-smashes, and other OoS options. It's puts him in the position to be shield grabbed and *****, especially when you're going against characters with chaingrab options and what have you. This gives you -12 advantage, leaves you on your opponents backside (disallowing shield grabs,) and still gives solid pushback. Here comes the bad news though. You have to be pretty deep before you can start this. What I mean is, you have to be very close to the opponent to actually cross over him successfully with the AC d-air. Still, it's very safe against shield and spot dodge. Experiment with this.

Spaced D-Tilt



ADVANTAGE: -20/-19

Probably the least surprising. The problem with this move is that a lot of characters have been able to grab our feet out of this. But, I think we should be carefully spacing this more often, as the pushback is actually decent,
so I believe we can actually avoid shield grabs. Probably the easiest spacing to achieve out of all of these moves as well. That's about it though, very simple for this one. Just look at the spacing and practice.

Spaced F-Tilt



ADVANTAGE: -23

I have never been a huge fan of this move. Other than against maybe Oli, Ivysaur, and Falco...I've never used it much. Until I realized that it held a decent amount of potential when you hit with the very tip of the move. Just like many of the spaced moves on this list, when you hit with the very tip of f-tilt, it creates a great amount of shield pushback, which prevents shield grabbing. This is great because sometimes you're closer than d-tilt's special range, and if you use d-tilt, you'll most likely be punished. Jab has a bit more range than f-tilt, but if you jab against a shield there is virtually no pushback or shield stun. That leaves f-tilt as a great option in closer ranges. However, you whiff f-tilt or use it at too close a range, you're getting hurt.


Cross-Up Dash Attack



ADVANTAGE: -25 with cross up

Probably the hardest move to hit with on this list. It's a shame as it could have easily been one of the most useful. The picture is a bit confusing, as Ganondorf's whole body covers MK >.<. Basically, as you can see, I'm doing a dash attack on metaknight's shield. Here's the kicker. See that little white circle on the right side of MK's shield? It's half of a white circle that is occuring on the right side. That is where my dash attack is actually hitting MK. When this happens, Ganondorf continues and ends up on the other side of MK. Quite a distance away from him too. Has decent pushback, but it's on the low side when compared to the other moves here. The problem is, this move is incredibly hard to hit with. You literally have to be right up in MK's grill to have this work. If you don't hit the other side of his shield, you won't end up on that side. You'll just end up on the normal side with a ridiculous amount of lag because of dash attack's complete duration. So if you're almost inside the opponent, you might want to use something else on shield. (I mean...you can just grab at the range you have to be for this)


Afterthoughts

Not much to say here other than, experiment with these. I think they have potential (other than maybe DA.) If we get spacing down, we might just create a safer Ganondorf. Remember, these advantages aren't incredibly special. What makes all of these moves unique is that with proper spacing, they do pretty good shield pushback. I never knew Ganondorf had much shield pushback on his moves until I started testing these moves. The opponent is pretty much in shield pushback and stun for like 5 to 8 frames. The pushback makes these moves much safer than they would've been without it. Oh, and sorry for the crappy quality pictures.

IX. Match Ups

Go to this new match up thread that actually discusses the match ups, summarizes them pretty well, and looks fancy.
GO HERE

Ganon's chance on the left, opponents on the right. Remember that these discussions aren't closed, and that you can bring up your arguments in the match up thread if you wish to change them. Of course, don't just go in there blindly because your main has a score you don't like, or with the reasoning "it's Ganondorf."

:bowser2:
40:60

:falcon:
50:50

:charizard:
40:60

:diddy:
20:80

:dk2:
40:60

:falco:
10:90

:fox:
30:70

:gw:
20:80

:ganondorf:
Deemed EPIC

:popo:
-__- 0:100

:ike:
40:60

:ivysaur:
40:60

:jigglypuff:
40:60

:dedede:
30:70

:kirby2:
40:60

:link2:
35:65

:lucario:
25:75

:lucas:
35:65

:luigi2:
35:65

:mario2:
35:65

:marth:
20:80

:metaknight:
15:85

:ness2:
35:65

:olimar:
10:90

:peach:
30:70

:pikachu2:
15:85

:pit:
25:75

:rob:
25:75

:samus2:
25:75

:shiek:
05:95

:snake:
30:70

:sonic:
40:60

:squirtle:
35:65

:toonlink:
35:65

:wario:
20:80

:wolf:
30:70

:yoshi2:
15:85

:zelda:
35:65

:zerosuitsamus:
30:70


Depressing a little bit isn't it? Well it should be.
I could argue with some of these numbers all day -_-​

X. Stages


The Good

Battlefield

Pirate Ship

Delfino

Norfair BANNED

Brinstar

The Average

Final Destination
(Can be bad against projectile characters)

Smashville

The Horrible

Rainbow Cruise
(Avoid at all costs)

Jungle Japes

Lylat Cruise
(Can be good against Yoshi and space animals)

Luigi's Mansion

Frigate

~Related Threads~
Stage Discussion




XII. Credits

Fromundaman goes first right now because he's a god who is typing this up from a printed version and sending it to me. Bow to him.

DAD for being a cool mutha f*cker. I honestly think that the DSL is one of the better things to happen to these boards lately.

Sliq for getting us all started. I can forgive the fact that he went to the turtle *****.

Jekyll for the Murder Choke Breakdown.

Flying Dutchman for all of his research and amazingness. Also, sexy hitbox pictures.

Gleam for making a huge *** list of every thing Ganon, big or small.

Xsyven for stickying this and pretty much everything that needed to be on the Ganon boards.

Kosky for being Kosky

Dragmire for a nice list of stomp combos

Big O for some delicious frame data

Z1GMA for discovering stuff!

Weinner for figuring out all the exact damages & amazing ampharos and ColinJF for the method.

Pretty much any other Ganon mains that have helped out in even the littlest way with the guide and board.​
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
All I can say is...finally :p.

People, it doesn't take one person to write a guide for a character, it takes a whole community who mains that character. I'm extremely welcome to any critique, suggestions, or opinions on what to put in this guide or how to make it more readable. Shin's guide is old as hell and we don't really have an established guide.

Read it and let me now what you think.
 

LosKnoggos

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
97
Location
Germany
Awesome guide, perhaps you could say something about his moves to climb up the edge and his good/awful stage.
 

SaltyKracka

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
1,983
Location
San Diego, CA
Indeed, it would be good to have some ledge options and counterpickable stages.

And on another note, here's a better pic for the title.

 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Thanks swoops ^^ Your participation to Ganon's community is very appreciated :D

About edgeguarding, you should add Wizard Foot (Grounded). It's very good to chase opponents offstage, and can lead in a pretty destructive Uair.
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
Indeed, it would be good to have some ledge options and counterpickable stages.

And on another note, here's a better pic for the title.
Counterpickable stages I'll get to, like Norfair and...Delfino I guess, maybe Rainbow Cruise against some characters.

Ledge options are all under recovery; edge attack, gerudo, aerial wizkick, and ledge hop air dodge and aerials are all there. I could probably go a bit more in depth with ledge hop aerials. I've found despite its lag, f-air onto the edge is great.

That pic is already part of your sig...nice try kracka -_-. I'm sticking with the picture I have up right now. Look at that smirk, see the murderous thoughts that lie behind it? More psychopathic :D
 

SaltyKracka

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
1,983
Location
San Diego, CA
Counterpickable stages I'll get to, like Norfair and...Delfino I guess, maybe Rainbow Cruise against some characters.

Ledge options are all under recovery; edge attack, gerudo, aerial wizkick, and ledge hop air dodge and aerials are all there. I could probably go a bit more in depth with ledge hop aerials. I've found despite its lag, f-air onto the edge is great.

That pic is already part of your sig...nice try kracka -_-. I'm sticking with the picture I have up right now. Look at that smirk, see the murderous thoughts that lie behind it? More psychopathic :D
Actually, I made my sig out of that pic. It's just that awesome. And high-res, too. It looks much better.
 

MacTheZombeh

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
9
Single-handedly the best guide i have ever, EVER seen. Bravo to you. You deserve a cookie.
 

Ray_Kalm

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,305
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
Ray_Kalm7
3DS FC
3626-0429-4546
Been trying to get the latest details for and about Ganon's game, and this has all.

^ Thank you in other words.
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
Single-handedly the best guide i have ever, EVER seen. Bravo to you. You deserve a cookie.
I swear, if I don't get that cookie...I'm coming for you.

Thanks for all the praise, hopefully we can get some more suggestions, make this guide grow, and get the old guide out and the new one in. Ganon's evolved a lot from Shin's guide.
 

hyperstation

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
1,009
Location
Brooklyn
Great job, Swoops. I read the whole thing and picked up on a few things which you must have kept locked away in your secret brain until now.
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
Great job, Swoops. I read the whole thing and picked up on a few things which you must have kept locked away in your secret brain until now.
<_< ;>_>...Secrets? I have no idea what hell you are talking about...you're full of all sorts of conspiracy.
 

:034:

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
7,562
Location
Netherlands
I was credited twice. C: This is an awesome guide, but it still has a few spelling mistakes here and there.

By the way, I can help with stage data if you want.
 

Shadow Nataku

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 1, 2002
Messages
905
All I can say is...finally :p.

People, it doesn't take one person to write a guide for a character, it takes a whole community who mains that character. I'm extremely welcome to any critique, suggestions, or opinions on what to put in this guide or how to make it more readable. Shin's guide is old as hell and we don't really have an established guide.

Read it and let me now what you think.
One big thing I'd add is it would be useful to mention SHFF Kick/Punch somewhere. SHFF actually makes it so the BAir can be used to hit even short characters like Metaknight, Kirby etc. Also some have shown a SHFF NAir can be performed so the hitbox still lasts when landing which would be extremely useful. SHFF BAir can be extremely useful as an retreat move.
 

Ray_Kalm

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,305
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
Ray_Kalm7
3DS FC
3626-0429-4546
Am I the only one noticing how much more aerial speed Ganon's backward full hops give him then his regular aerial speed? I'm not sure about this but, It seems a lot faster. Not to mention how much I've baited people with this, to a F-Air.
 

TP

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
3,341
Location
St. Louis, MO
Can you include in the intro that it is spelled "Ganon" instead of "Gannon" please? The number of people who make that mistake is simply absurd. In fact, I'm putting the clarification in my sig. I suggest you guys do likewise.

Also, outstanding guide.
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
One big thing I'd add is it would be useful to mention SHFF Kick/Punch somewhere. SHFF actually makes it so the BAir can be used to hit even short characters like Metaknight, Kirby etc. Also some have shown a SHFF NAir can be performed so the hitbox still lasts when landing which would be extremely useful. SHFF BAir can be extremely useful as an retreat move.
The thing about SHFFing aerials is...it's always been there and it isn't really a huge technique. Every character SHFFs aerials but us Ganon mains don't really because we have crappy lag on every one of our aerials. I'll probably add that you can slightly fast fall b-air to where it still autocancels. Overall though, ACd b-air is just as good of a retreat move as SHFF b-air...without the lag. And I'll add in that you can SHFF n-air and take the risk.

If you were talking about SHFF punch as in SHFF f-air, that really just fits in the category of "space the move well." But I'll add a bit more about its spacing.

Lol make sure people are spelling "Ganon" right? Ah yes a key issue, ignorance :p, but I'm putting it in size 1 font :p.

FD...you are my awesome spell checker. I actually get annoyed by spelling mistakes so I'm gunna have to go throught the whole god damned guide to fix em, so thanks for that. Yea, if you want to help out with stage data that would be great. I was just thinking of how to organize it. Lol i was just going to put either a :) or :( by stage names. But I suppose I'll put effort into it >_>.
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Ahah apparently you haven't notices my last post. :x

I suggested to add the grounded Wizard foot into edgeguarding. This way, you can steal the opponent's double-jump, or if you didn't touch him, edgeguard with a UAir / Dair / UpB. And then, you still have your DJ. :)

EDIT : Oh and i would like the frames for a grounded UpB :) I would like to see if this is good as a OoS move. :)
 

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,889
I vote fair is named Crush Punch. Otherwise this is awesome.
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
Ahah apparently you haven't notices my last post. :x

I suggested to add the grounded Wizard foot into edgeguarding. This way, you can steal the opponent's double-jump, or if you didn't touch him, edgeguard with a UAir / Dair / UpB. And then, you still have your DJ. :)

EDIT : Oh and i would like the frames for a grounded UpB :) I would like to see if this is good as a OoS move. :)
Lol no I saw it I just forgot to say anything >.<. Yea I'll add the wizkick edgeguard stuff as soon as I can. As far as UpB goes OoS...it's an option but I think I'd rather have any other option because of the risk involved with it. But I'll do some testing on it...if I can recall it's something like 14 frames.

I vote fair is named Crush Punch. Otherwise this is awesome.
Compromise=Skull Crush Punch?

Also, on a side note...I demand that everyone starts calling d-air tombstone...because it's just too fucking good of a name.
 

:034:

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
7,562
Location
Netherlands
You can list a few stages that are ranked at Good or Bad, then give reasons as to why they are good or bad for Ganondorf, and against what characters they might be good against.
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Let me quickly help you :p

Good : Battlefield, Castle siege, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Delfino
Average : Pokemon Stadium, Yoshi's Island, Lylat, Halberd, Jungles Japes (depends on the ennemy)
Bad : Final Destination, Smashville
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
o.O FD and Smashville bad? I would lylat under bad, Smashville under good, and FD I'm undecided on between good and average. The edges doget in the way of his recovery sometimes, which I'm pretty sure is why you picked it to be bad, but almost everyone has trouble with those edges, and they can be avoided pretty easily. I am fond of jungle japes sometimes though. Rainbow cruise is really more of a counter pick against characters. Luigi's Mansion is one that goes under bad.
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Actually, i put FD and Smashville in "Bad" because of the projectiles game....

Think by example to Falco, DDD, Snake, Samus, Fox... Every character that has a character in the game has an advantage over Ganondorf on FD and Smashville.

Furthermore, flat stages don't allow us Ganondorf mains to use our aerial game as much as we would like.

And finally, Ganon's approach is very limited on big stages, like FD. I know he's overall at approaching, but you actually can approach on BF.

However, Smashville is better than FD, but still not as good for Ganon as BF ^^ (Platforms game is just... DESTRUCTIVE with ganon :p)
 

hyperstation

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
1,009
Location
Brooklyn
Am I the only one noticing how much more aerial speed Ganon's backward full hops give him then his regular aerial speed? I'm not sure about this but, It seems a lot faster. Not to mention how much I've baited people with this, to a F-Air.
Baiting a Fair with a retreating DJ is incredibly satisfying. That fist thumps SO hard straight to the dome piece.
 

Ray_Kalm

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,305
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
Ray_Kalm7
3DS FC
3626-0429-4546
I just finished reading half of it while testing/trying it on brawl at the same time, let me tell you, I'm really satisfied.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
Smashville is very good for Ganondorf.

The moving platform is fairly high, and disrupts attempts for most characters to projectile camp very effectively, and helps you a LOT in closing distance between them. Much better than the platforms on BF do so. Some characters also do not easily get juggling benefits from that platform, but Ganondorf is a character that does easily get juggling benefits from the platform.

It's better than BF against some characters, and worse against others. SV for example IMO is significantly better against Luigi and Mario. They do not have an easy time camping on SV, but have a very easy time camping on BF. Both of them also are juggling oriented and the lower platforms on BF accommodate to their smaller stature pretty well. The SV platform is more problematic for them because they have to go higher in order to exploit it.
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
Actually, i put FD and Smashville in "Bad" because of the projectiles game....

Think by example to Falco, DDD, Snake, Samus, Fox... Every character that has a character in the game has an advantage over Ganondorf on FD and Smashville.

Furthermore, flat stages don't allow us Ganondorf mains to use our aerial game as much as we would like.

And finally, Ganon's approach is very limited on big stages, like FD. I know he's overall at approaching, but you actually can approach on BF.

However, Smashville is better than FD, but still not as good for Ganon as BF ^^ (Platforms game is just... DESTRUCTIVE with ganon :p)
I do agree that platforms help out Ganon a lot in terms of destroying opponents on them, but really I don't think they make that much difference against a projectile spamming person. Ganon is slow enough to where if you are playing against an opponent with a decent grasp on throwing out projectiles, it won't matter much. Ganon doesn't have a great time coming down from the air. It might seem like it with aerial wizkick and stomp, but if they stay on the ground spamming projectiles, both those moves take to much lag and it can be tough to land again. My view is that unless you're playing on a stage with structures that do hamper projectiles, like Corneria, then platforms don't matter as much. Maybe for other characters they help, but not Ganon. You're just as well off SHADing and PSing.

How do flat stages limit Ganondorf's aerial game? And even if they do sometimes, he still has a pretty good ground game and he doesn't have to worry about terrain messing up autocancels. As far as I'm concerned, FD is definitely average. Smashville's platform helps just because it moves. Helping to advance a little more with projectiles.
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
Update! I put the log of updates at the top now so you can actually see them as soon you open this thread >_>. I'm also making the most recent updates red, seems like the most attention grabbing color.

Added stage stuff, stuff to edgeguarding, recovery...you know what, read the update thing. That's what it's there for.

Blad...I would like to hear more of your stage thoughts, why did you choose Castle Siege as good?
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
Castle Siege is not good for Ganondorf. It's only useful as a counterpick against certain characters.

It's the kind of stage that limits projectile camping in general. Ganon however does not have many exploitable advantages on this stage.

1st transformation: best for Ganon. Low platforms, small area and blastzone.

2nd transformation: situational. Statues halt spam, but if you get CGed on the bottom floor, you are dead. The area is huge, making it difficult to chase down opponents.

3rd transformation: swaying stage. Ugh.
 

:034:

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
7,562
Location
Netherlands
Why has nobody mentioned Norfair yet >:

SERIOUSLY, Norfair ***** for Ganondorf. One of Ganondorf's stronger points is attacking upward. Uair, Usmash and thunderstorm all ****, and Norfair's layout is perfect for all three. You can get off series of uairs to usmash really easily.

The multiple platforms make it easier to recover safely, since your opponent can only guard one at the time. The ledges and fall-through platforms are made in such a way that ledgecamping is insanely easy and awesome (especially with that amazing ledge attack that nobody ever discusses). Combine that with the Lava Crash (new name for Lavacide, diving into the lava with Murder Choke, killing your opponent and saving you) and you get an awesome strategy.

The lava isn't as much of a problem because Ganondorf is a heavy weight. Did I mention that the vertical KO boundaries are actually a bit lower than most, especially with the platforms?

It also helps a lot against specific characters. Characters that need to take control of a large field of play (Diddy and Snake, for instance) have trouble on this stage.

Seriously, Norfair is just REALLY awesome.

tl;dr:
+ Lava Crash
+ Easy ledgecamping
+ Easy vertical attacking due to layout
+ Live longer
+ Works against people who need a large field of play
+ Easily KO'ing light people, especially vertically
- Lava can still get in the way
- Bottom platform ledges are a bit awkward
 

Swoops

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
1,000
Location
Tempe, AZ
NNID
SwoopsTii
>_____> Didn't you check the update in my guide where I mentioned that Norfair was good? I didn't go as in depth with it but it's there. Blad mentioned it too :p. I'll probably do a pros/cons thing with each stage, as well as a general strategy...but later.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
I bet Norfair makes DDD WINNABLE. Heck, Ganon might even go EVEN with DDD on Norfair. =)

Norfair is an amazing as hell counterpick stage as long as mean people don't ban it.
 
Top Bottom