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.:How to Murder Stuff:. A Guide to the 'Dorf'

Z1GMA

Smash Hero
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So do any of those followups from bair > bair and bair > upair legitimately combo (offline)?
Offline? "Swe-Fi" is as close to offline as it gets.
In my CV, I use them Vs people in lagless matches.

It's also very close to impossible to perform them in laggy Wi-fi, cause they require very strict timing and somewhat tricky inputs.
Same goes for those Flipman clips I added.

In fact, 95% of the CV contains material form lagless matches.
Yes, I'm serious. The input delay is only like 0,05 secs across the continents here.

However... You're right. They aren't 100% garanteed, but the window of escaping is pretty **** slim, trust me.
 

Swoops

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A vid of my most recent stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKfR2NeCNRQ

I'll just leave it in yr hands, Swoops :]
I guess I should add some more vids >.<.

Hey, where's the "Swoops Spacing"-section?
I thought I'd find it somewhere in your this guide, but I didn't ;\
(All that stuff you wrote about Fair Spacing before you had your Brawl Break)

I felt a desire to read it again :sad:
...I can't remember that section at all o.o. Most of the f-air spacing stuff I just put into f-air itself I was pretty sure. Although I could throw in that diagram of the f-air hitbox that I think DAD did.

Sliqs guide is still really good imo, even now.
Blasphemer -_-

Anyway, I've been working out dashdancing a lot more. I've gotten pretty **** adept at it, so much so that anything can be done out of it. That's right. Seeing as how I found out you can true pivot out of the dashdance, it resets you to neutral allowing you to do anything, shield, d-tilt, jab, wizkick. The timing is still strict, but it seems like it's getting easier.
 

PK-ow!

Smash Lord
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I'll never be able to master linking out of dash dance, and it saddens me greatly. This is not exaggeration.

The best I've got is Dash Dance -> Dash -> True Pivot & Dash Dance -> Dash -> Dash Dance (direction change).

However, I can't link these end to end. I simply cannot do it. When it comes to dash dance, I have to know what I'm doing before I start doing anything. It almost removes the point of dash dancing, but it still works, sometimes. :urg:

. . . .

*SIIIIIIIIGGGHHHHHH*


Oh. We need a metagame discussion thread. Lots of other boards have them. And I have theories to share.

Guide needs to be updated for moveset. Dash Attack doesn't kill anymore. No one gets hit by it. That move is for damage racking with its awesome priority. On a dash attack.
We need to put the tricks we've found up. dtilt just doesn't do everything. It's about uairs and setting up stomp, and spamming roll anyway because Ganon's is good. >.>
 

thexsunrosered

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I'll never be able to master linking out of dash dance, and it saddens me greatly. This is not exaggeration.

The best I've got is Dash Dance -> Dash -> True Pivot & Dash Dance -> Dash -> Dash Dance (direction change).

However, I can't link these end to end. I simply cannot do it. When it comes to dash dance, I have to know what I'm doing before I start doing anything. It almost removes the point of dash dancing, but it still works, sometimes. :urg:

. . . .

*SIIIIIIIIGGGHHHHHH*


Oh. We need a metagame discussion thread. Lots of other boards have them. And I have theories to share.

Guide needs to be updated for moveset. Dash Attack doesn't kill anymore. No one gets hit by it. That move is for damage racking with its awesome priority. On a dash attack.
We need to put the tricks we've found up. dtilt just doesn't do everything. It's about uairs and setting up stomp, and spamming roll anyway because Ganon's is good. >.>
I kill with DA :embarrass
 

Swoops

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Keep trying, because it's awesome. The best part is you can do it right out of a perfect dashdance, you don'tt need to foxtrot away before you go into the true pivot. I know what I'm doing like half of the time now >.>. Also, kalm can probably attest to this, but full jump u-air/b-air into b-air is sexy.

DA isn't only for killing no, but it varies from match up to match up. I like saving DA for early kills against characters where I don't get very many opportunities to, because I guaranteed kill out of gerudo at like 90% is pretty **** valuable. But against a lot of match ups where I need to plow through annoying moves (like MK and marth,) I'm going to use DA for that. It's the like the one move where you really need to decide what you're going to do with it. Besides, if no one gets hit with it, how is it good for damage racking >.>?

I agree about the tech thread though.
 

Z1GMA

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...I can't remember that section at all o.o. Most of the f-air spacing stuff I just put into f-air itself I was pretty sure.
How could you forget such a great write down? Amnesia?
JK =p

As for f-air, every Ganondorf main should be learning to space this very, very well. It should be your second nature to pull this out and hit with the very end of your fist. It would be helpful for someone to get a hitbox pic, but I can try to get a detailed one (I just wish there was something to get completely accurate hitbox pictures.)

When hitting with the inside portion of the f-air, it does much less knockback, much less shield stun and pushback, and a little bit less damage. Land with the just the tip of this move (the area arches from directly above and in front of Ganon when it starts out, and decent amount below him when it finishes,) and it does insane knockback, often killing medium weights off the side of the stage as early as 70%, pushes their shield back very far, and does a good amount of shield stun for Brawl. The shield stun and pushback are good enough to where most characters won't have quick enough moves to dole out the punishment. Of course, there are quick enough dash attacks, and definitely tether grabs that can take advantage of the lag, but that's why you have to know who you're fighting against.

You must know that if you don't connect with either the opponent or a regular shied (not powershield,) you will get punished. That is what becomes slightly tricky with f-air as you go along. You have the start up frames, and you have to be in juuuust the right range. Sounds hard, but it's just tricky sometimes. You have to be in the right range to stay outside theirs and hit with the sweetspot, but inside the right range to where you don't miss and get screwed. Spot dodging and powershielding seems like a problem at first, but with the timing of f-air, it becomes a little bit harder for them to time spot dodges and PSing.

Spacing f-air just takes quite a bit of practice and getting used to. Make sure that you fast fall the attack into their shield and range a lot, otherwise you're going to be hanging in the air after missing while they're on the ground ready to punish. Double jump becomes a very useful tool for setting up f-air spacing, as you can control the fall and range a little better. You should also learn to space it over moves as well, as the hitbox comes in around in arching motion to come over and skull crush a lot of moves. DK is a character where f-air can be very effective at competing with his own spacing game and beating a lot of his ground game.

Edgeguarding with f-air is something that should be used a little more often as well. It's definitely risky, especially with walk off f-air, because you barely grab the ledge to make it back, which can allow for an edgehog from decently smart players if you miss. Walk off f-air is still a main edgeguard in my book though. It requires almost no set up time if your near the ledge (tipman and stomp still require set up times that are much easier to see coming,) covers a very wide area, and will blast people off the side at fairly early percents.

I see f-air becoming a very big part of Ganondorf's game as we go along, as it's a very decent spacing tool that is fairly safe, causes lots of damage and knockback, and can out space even Marth in some scenarios. It's definitely something that can completely trump MKs range. I know that f-air can completely pressure a lot of opponents with a far reaching move that can KO a lot of characters at surprisingly low percents, and that can out space most characters in the game. It has its own weaknesses, but overall with proper use, it becomes a very deadly tool in Ganon's arsenal.

EDIT: Yes crunch, I put it better than you did :D. Lol, I don't think it takes a bunch of devotion, but it does take some work to make f-air extremely viable in a higher level of play.
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

Seeing as how I found out you can true pivot out of the dashdance, it resets you to neutral allowing you to do anything, shield, d-tilt, jab, wizkick.
Sounds coo' !
 

Swoops

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...what in the hell, Z1GMA, I completely remember that, but...ooooh.

I'm pretty sure that was never in my guide in the first place, but it was a post that I made. Definitely one that should be put in the guide though.
 

:034:

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Anyway, I've been working out dashdancing a lot more. I've gotten pretty **** adept at it, so much so that anything can be done out of it. That's right. Seeing as how I found out you can true pivot out of the dashdance, it resets you to neutral allowing you to do anything, shield, d-tilt, jab, wizkick. The timing is still strict, but it seems like it's getting easier.
I've actually been doing that with my Marth... in Brawl+, but hey, same thing. Although it's mostly just fsmash. Mmmmm, fsmash.

:034:
 

thexsunrosered

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Anyway, I've been working out dashdancing a lot more. I've gotten pretty **** adept at it, so much so that anything can be done out of it. That's right. Seeing as how I found out you can true pivot out of the dashdance, it resets you to neutral allowing you to do anything, shield, d-tilt, jab, wizkick. The timing is still strict, but it seems like it's getting easier.
yeah when we played your dashes dances were the tightest I've ever seen
 

Swoops

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Ugh, alright, I updated the guide a bit. Except, it's screwing up every time I try to edit and save. Everything is there thankfully, updated as of today, but the title doesn't say it. It's really just polish and a spacing section for f-air though. Check the log for details :p.
 

finnishmatthew

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I find it kind of hard to effectively use dash-dancing, any tips on when to apply it? Like, for example, should I use it to punish approaches (reverse f-smash out of pivot), or fake out the enemy to kill (dash-dance and then DA)? Every time I dash-dance my enemy just punishes me.
 

Swoops

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I find it kind of hard to effectively use dash-dancing, any tips on when to apply it? Like, for example, should I use it to punish approaches (reverse f-smash out of pivot), or fake out the enemy to kill (dash-dance and then DA)? Every time I dash-dance my enemy just punishes me.
It's both really. The idea is to keep the opponent guessing, while keeping most or all of your options open. Probably one of the most important things to remember is that dashdancing shouldn't replace your standing position.

Throw it in every so often, to try and mix up your opponent. You whiff an AC stomp some distance away from him and he doesn't take it, because he obviously expects you have something else, dashdance quickly when you land, you get him to react. He takes to the air to counter you with an aerial, quickly go back a ways and try to snuff him with b-air, or if the spacing is right just u-air. He expects a d-tilt or DA after the, watch his shield come up and go for the choke. Hell, or just watch for the spotdodge (which many people who know ganon go for) and throw out a f-smash or choke. If they spotdodge early that still means a free choke.

The cold hard truth though is that if you can't dashdance very well, it's close to useless. By very well, I mean having the ability to actually know what you're doing while you're slamming back and forth, and having the ability to reset to neutral at practically any time. This allows you to get shields up and use d-tilts and wizkick from the dashdance. But if you're not that adept at resetting to neutral, just roll away if you even think you're going to be in a bit of trouble.

The best way to learn a new tech or application for a move is just spam the hell out of it in any match. You start to see where it worked well, where it got punished badly, and just overall what it's pros and cons are. So go nuts.
 

@HomE

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That post by Swoops got me thinking a little bit, After watching this DK combo vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEk1t550JNU

i started thinking about Pivot walking..

- Pivot Technique: Pivot Walking
How to perform: Hold A (or any other attack button, if any) , walk and push the c-stick in a 45 degree back-up direction (requires C-stick set to smash).
Effect: Your character will spin 360 degrees, while still maintaining his forward velocity, and if you do this in the right pace your character will be continously spinning.

You can do the same attacks out of this as you can a normal walk. If you press the c-stick too much up, you will start a dash, if you press the c-stick too much back, you will start charging a fsmash in that direction.

I messed around with this for just a couple minutes yesterday, and while Ganon's Pivot Walk is much less effective then DK's i feel like it still may have some Mindgame potential..

Pivot walking could be used like a Dash Dance, to confuse the opponent (it looks pretty Fking weird) and you can Attack smash instantly out of it similar to a Dash Dance..

Just thought i would throw that idea into the air because I realized i have never really seen a Ganon use Pivot Walking before...

Discuss..
 

finnishmatthew

Smash Rookie
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Messages
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I can imagine that pivot walking would be a good retreat manuever. Run away, unleash a pivot walk, they WTF, and then you smash them. Anything that can be used to help Ganon's retreating game is useful. I find myself doing that more often.
 

PK-ow!

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Okay, I'ma put the tech I found here.

Then it will go into the thread I manage.



Demonic Step. What we have archived is that if Ganondorf spot dodges, and shields out of it, he slides forward. This also happens if you walk backward. In that case he slides forward, and if you hold walk he walks back over that position.

Did you also know, that if he

Jabs
ftilts (buffered)
Usmashes
or crouches,

that the same thing happens?

From a crouch, any character that doesn't crawl can instantly walk (forward), and anyone can shield.
I tested "overlapping" the inputs (e.g. crouch + shield). I didn't seem to get anything, though I wasn't being very precise.


I can confirm nothing happens if you buffer dtilt, and that probably nothing happens if you Wizkick or Warlock Punch. Dsmash is inconclusive...


Finally, this I found even further, just a few days ago, if you spot dodge, and spam spot dodge as soon as you can out of that, Ganon moves backwards.
I wonder if we can get through Falco standing lasers with this (moving backwards). Not that anyone other than a noob who fights like a man uses it.
 

Big O

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I'm pretty sure all of that was already known about the demonic step. I've never thought of using it to advance through spam. It doesn't sound too useful since you can roll or SHAD but it may come in handy since it gives the most overall invincibility.
 

SmashBrosForce

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The Gerudo Pressure

This trick is based on "Gerudo -> Walk away -> Fsmash". The Gerudo Pressure is another technique to punish "Get Up" attacks after Flame-Choke. It's a formidable trick which works with Perfect Angles.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3m2D_QHmuU&feature=channel_page



Flame-Choke -> Dair, then move Backwards -> Fsmash (Salmon Smash)

Pros:
- It's truly Guaranteed against people and all characters (If they don't shield).
- Does 34% (Refreshed).
- You can use whenever time you want to punish the get up attack of your opponent during a Chainchoke.
- Can be used as a Finish Trick.
- This Trick has a Perfect Accuracy.

Cons:
- A little bit hard to perform.
- Your opponent can shield the Salmon Smash.
- Predictable.
- If your opponent shield the Salmon Smash, you will probably get punished.
 

stRIP

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its not guaranteed on anyone. There are chars which you cant hit with dair if they roll behind you (like Lucario, Ike etc)

Where is it guaranteed on all characters if they can shield it?


And where is this hard to perform?:D i could truly do it with 1 hand eyes closed
 

finnishmatthew

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Good tech, good to use every once and a while. Just used this A LOT in a match to test its power. I found that its reliability degraded after several usages. My opponent ended up perfect shielding it and punishing me after my 3rd or so use. I can imagine that one would use this as a surprise kill, which I did, and not a constant flame choke follow up. There are too many faults in this tech to use it constantly after flame choke.
 

Z1GMA

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The Gerudo Pressure

This trick is based on "Gerudo -> Walk away -> Fsmash". The Gerudo Pressure is another technique to punish "Get Up" attacks after Flame-Choke. It's a formidable trick which works with Perfect Angles.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3m2D_QHmuU&feature=channel_page



Flame-Choke -> Dair To Backward -> Fsmash (Salmon Smash)

Pros:
- It's truly Guaranteed against people and all characters.
- Does 34% (Refreshed).
- You can use whenever time you want to punish the get up attack of your opponent during a Chainchoke.
- Can be used as a Finish Trick.
- This Trick has a Perfect Accuracy.

Cons:
- A little bit hard to perform.
- Your opponent can shield the Salmon Smash.
- Predictable.
The Video Footage was well perfromed, sbf.
However, it's as old as my street. . . . . It should be a useful vid for "New Ganons", though.

One more thing... The title "Gerudo Pressure" is a little missleading.
 

Swoops

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I do like the vid Force :p. It's a pretty good maneuver because it usually does a good job of covering two options out of Gerudo.

You gotta know though, all of the times you did, they weren't guaranteed. Every time you hit the opponent with that f-smash, they had already delayed their get up attack. If they were to use a get up attack immediately, they could easily roll away or shield. The d-air is always nice to make people react that have gotten into the habit of waiting after gerudo.

I might start a section about Gerudo tech chasing called "Preventing Their Freedom" or "Crushing Their Hope/Destroying Their Freedom"...or something like that. This would be something that would go in there. The idea of starting a tech chase section has always been in the back of my mind, but I'm usually very iffy to do it considered a lot of it is your own creativity, more about things that work for you.
 

@HomE

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Swoops.. you should make that guide ASAP

Also, I have a couple Gerudo Follow ups that I've never seen used and i wouldnt mind contributing..
 

Z1GMA

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I might start a section about Gerudo tech chasing called "Preventing Their Freedom" or "Crushing Their Hope/Destroying Their Freedom"...or something like that. This would be something that would go in there. The idea of starting a tech chase section has always been in the back of my mind, but I'm usually very iffy to do it considered a lot of it is your own creativity, more about things that work for you.
! ! ! ! !

Wouldn't the best possible way of "walking away" be:
SHFF'd Buffered Dash Cancel ?

It's indeed faster than a SH Dair, BUT it doesn't stress the opponent nearly as much as a Dair actually does >=o}

And... (Probably common knowledge) the opponent is WAY easier to predict when he's/she's stressed.
Psychology really does play a big role in our Gerudo Game.

Look how cold and calculated Swoops is in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6yu_IJ2VVk (1:33 -> 1:42)
That is "Reaction Based" Tech Chasing.

I use to think that there's 3 different ways to follow up a Gerudo.

1. Reaction Based (Like in the clip you just saw)
2. Presumption/Predicton Based (Kalm is too good at this)
3. Garanteed Gerudo Follow ups (Gerudo -> Jab, etc...)

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

One more thing...
When Gerudo'ing someone so that they land right by the legde of the stage, you should be able to garantee a strong attack on any character.
 

SmashBrosForce

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its not guaranteed on anyone. There are chars which you cant hit with dair if they roll behind you (like Lucario, Ike etc)

Where is it guaranteed on all characters if they can shield it?


And where is this hard to perform?:D i could truly do it with 1 hand eyes closed
I tested this trick both ONLINE and OFFLINE and it worked perfectly for me.

If your opponent don't shield it, it's truly guaranteed dude. Dair gives you a perfect position for the Salmon Smash (Perfect Angle).

Actually isn't hard to perform..

I know it's a WEIRD tech, but it works perfectly in my gameplay. I had some replays against people, but I lost, cause I deleted everything in my SD card to install Brawl+... Oh God...

I will keep editing my post with more Pros or Cons... I'm a little bit lazy to edit posts.


Good tech, good to use every once and a while. Just used this A LOT in a match to test its power. I found that its reliability degraded after several usages. My opponent ended up perfect shielding it and punishing me after my 3rd or so use. I can imagine that one would use this as a surprise kill, which I did, and not a constant flame choke follow up. There are too many faults in this tech to use it constantly after flame choke.
Too many faults ? lulz

This tech it's just weird.

Another thing: This tech was made to PUNISH get up attacks.


EDIT: Z1G, Gerudo Pressure it's a random name. I'm not too creative. I thought Gerudo Pressure more interesting than Choke-Pressure.

Swoops, did you really like my tech ? Well... It's weird but, if you're good at chainchoking, you can use that trick to inflict a good damage (If your opponent don't shield the Salmon Smash).
 

Swoops

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I tested this trick both ONLINE and OFFLINE and it worked perfectly for me.

If your opponent don't shield it, it's truly guaranteed dude. Dair gives you a perfect position for the Salmon Smash (Perfect Angle).

Actually isn't hard to perform..

~~

Too many faults ? lulz

~~

Swoops, did you really like my tech ? Well... It's weird but, if you're good at chainchoking, you can use that trick to inflict a good damage (If your opponent don't shield the Salmon Smash).
Tech isn't really the right word to describe it. I wouldn't be picky usually, but this is a strategy more than anything. I like the strategy, because I've used it a few times. You jump back with stomp to bait a reaction, then you follow up with something.

But calling it guaranteed is very off, because it has many instances where people can get out of it. I get saying "this is guaranted if they _____." But they can just get up normally and shield, buffer an attack and still shield. If they can shield the attack, that means they roll away from it and spot dodge it too. The only instance where they get hit is if they delay a get up attack, roll towards you, or stand up even after noticing that you're stomping backwards, which gives them an indicator. But it's a useful strategy to mix in with your chokes.
 

SmashBrosForce

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Tech isn't really the right word to describe it. I wouldn't be picky usually, but this is a strategy more than anything. I like the strategy, because I've used it a few times. You jump back with stomp to bait a reaction, then you follow up with something.

But calling it guaranteed is very off, because it has many instances where people can get out of it. I get saying "this is guaranted if they _____." But they can just get up normally and shield, buffer an attack and still shield. If they can shield the attack, that means they roll away from it and spot dodge it too. The only instance where they get hit is if they delay a get up attack, roll towards you, or stand up even after noticing that you're stomping backwards, which gives them an indicator. But it's a useful strategy to mix in with your chokes.
Well... That's make sense. Tech isn't the right name.

I don't know why this trick isn't truly guaranteed for you. Dude, keep using sometimes that trick against people, you will probably find something good for you. Trust me brother.

I am glad that you recognized a little bit the potential of that.

Thank you brother.;)
 

Big O

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I've messed around with the sh stomp to Fsmash for punishing get up attacks and it seems like they can't block it. I tried it on Marth and have gotten it hit before he can shield. This might end up being useful.
 

PK-ow!

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I seriously need to step up my Choke game.

I've been overemphasizing guaranteed followups and have almost no concept of the sort of pseudo traps I can put on people from a Choke... even though Ijosh and other people have used them on me.

If the opponent doesn't wake-up attack, use dtilt, and use dtilt out of the dtilt if they don't go behind you. You're safe, and you'll hit someone who stands up.

Gerudo Pressure is a good option because the 'answer' is to roll away... which means you are pushing the opponent forward.

The only thing I have is that if you do a Dash attack, you will clank with every non-psychic, non-sword wakeup attack, and end up behind the guy. An ftilt, depending on the hitbox shape of the other character's tilt and jab, is a good reaction - I mean, if the opponent is someone who will react by attacking. If the opponent has a good move to use, though, it's back to a guessing game.

Demonic Step could be mixed up with retreating aerials, I think.
 

SmashBrosForce

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Hey Big O and PK,

If this trick works for you, please post here. I want to know how that trick works against Canadian and American players.

Ohh God... If I had my gerudo pressure replays against people, I would put in the video.

LOLOLOLOL !!!
 

thexsunrosered

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And... (Probably common knowledge) the opponent is WAY easier to predict when he's/she's stressed.
Psychology really does play a big role in our Gerudo Game.
this is definitely true. If you do a **** combo on someone and then, say, Aerudo them while they're on stage and you aren't, they WILL roll away like 99% of the time to try and separate themselves from the ****. Trust me, follow up with another gerudo, it'll work :)
 

Swoops

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SwoopsTii
Well a lot of Gerudo tech chasing I do plays off the terrain and their psychology. People, who get stressed and nervous have a tendency to revert back to their habits.

Terrain based chasing works on a lot of people. If they have more of the stage to work with behind them, they'll roll away from you. If they're feeling pressured with little stage to work with behind them, they'll either roll behind you or try to clear you out with get up attacks.

There's also the type of people who usually try to hit you out of your aerudo lag with get up attack, and who like to try and get you off the stage with a get up attack.

Smarter players will usually do one of two things, either stay on the ground and use reaction, or be unpredictable. The latter is obviously the hard one to deal with. Them waiting on the ground and trying to see what you are going to do is always fun. Either you can just get a d-tilt off, or provoke them. You're in control and you can get them to react how you want. A lot of the time though, even the smartest players end up using the terrain to make their decisions when they're pressured

People who are smart and do ridiculous things on get up to remain unpredictable are annoying. This is where you either take a wild guess or work on your reaction chasing.
 

thexsunrosered

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,061
Location
Dover, Delaware
People who are smart and do ridiculous things on get up to remain unpredictable are annoying. This is where you either take a wild guess or work on your reaction chasing.
thats me :laugh:
i've never been chased more than twice :)

edit: except by breezy =O he did it like, 4 times :(
 

ManRogue

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 12, 2009
Messages
7
Location
London
i never really understood the 40:60 matchup with bowser when not taking into account that bowser is vulnerable to all of ganondorf's smashes after the flame choke
 

SmashBrosForce

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
781
Well a lot of Gerudo tech chasing I do plays off the terrain and their psychology. People, who get stressed and nervous have a tendency to revert back to their habits.

People who are smart and do ridiculous things on get up to remain unpredictable are annoying. This is where you either take a wild guess or work on your reaction chasing.
That's a great explanation Swoops, everything makes sense. I noticed some weird habits when I play at Wifi.

Well, When I play people who I don't know, I always predict that my opponent will roll behind me and I use Fsmash to punish these rolls almost everytime. I use Gerudo Pressure when I feel that my opponent is pressured.

Dude, When will you make a section about Gerudo Tech Chasing ?
 

PK-ow!

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,890
Location
Canada, ON
About using terrain...
against those people who are just being completely random in getting up, the weakness is that they aren't trying to exploit what you are doing, and also usually, they're going to experience mental lag in reacting to the confluence of both your and their choice.

Thus, I would think the best response would be, to assume that they are going to roll into the center of the stage*, but make a safe choice based on that. That is, to put yourself in a good position assuming they choose their abstractly best option, and to thus be in the slightly advanced position anyway - of their being closer to the edge - if they chose otherwise.


*i.e., so as to increase the value 'the minimum, over all directions, of the space to work with between self and the edge in that direction'

i never really understood the 40:60 matchup with bowser when not taking into account that bowser is vulnerable to all of ganondorf's smashes after the flame choke
He's not.

Bowser is one of the faster people wretches to recover. It's just that he can't roll out of anything Ganon does. An Fsmash in place hits stand-up and roll out. I bet if you did the smash from a few steps back, you could hit all three non-attacking options, but you can't get back that far (except maybe with True Pivot).


Now, when you take this, plus the fact that a timed dtilt or ftilt will interrupt his wake-up attack, you get a modified guessing game from Choke. Either he attacks, in which case you do a tilt, or he moves, in which case ... you guess where. A delay from him falls under attack, because dtilt will hit that. Unless he delays for exactly 1 frame.

Actually my frame math might be off there, and the dtilt is guaranteed.


Chokechaining Boozer has an extraordinary ability to make Bowser players feel like their character sucks. 40%+ damage, people; and the Jab is still there when you're done with risk.
 
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