How to Deal with Specific Moves #8 & #9: Metaknight's Shuttle Loop + Diddy's Bananas

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Wow, tornado a bad move?

You just killed some braincells, way to go!

 

[J4pu]

tornado is not a bad move...

Nair beats tornado from the side the majority of the time, although occasionally it won't.

 

[pure_awesome]

I Phantasmed into a Tornado once in an effort to recover, then DId it up and Dair spiked him out of it and UpBed to recover.

It was kewl.

 

[BleachigoZX]

*pewpewpewpew*

 

[Tommy_G]

I Phantasmed into a Tornado once in an effort to recover, then DId it up and Dair spiked him out of it and UpBed to recover.

It was kewl.

vid or it neva happend

 

[B-Mon]

Laser the ****ed void or just shield and slightly tilt up if its on top of Falco's Grill or shield period of its right on his grill.
Falco don't play with 'nados.

 

[§witch]

Tornado is a bad move lol.

This.

It doesn't do very much damage, gets stale ridiculously fast, and people knows how to DI out of it quickly now.

 

[wangston]

How the **** do you DI out of the tornado when you get stuck in the middle. The only time you can DI out of it is at the beginning, if you don't get out of it right away you are ****ed.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

This.

It doesn't do very much damage, gets stale ridiculously fast, and people knows how to DI out of it quickly now.

The Nado has insane priority,Is very safe if used right,and can be a graet option for recovering.It may be easy to DI,but you cannot punish it,which means free damage.It punishes Dodges and pressures shield.

 

[Vlade]

How the **** do you DI out of the tornado when you get stuck in the middle. The only time you can DI out of it is at the beginning, if you don't get out of it right away you are ****ed.

Yeah, I find it impossible to DI out unless I got stuck in the very beginning.

SK92 apparently rotates both sticks in circles while mashing air dodge.

 

[§witch]

Double stick DI up and out.

The Nado has insane priority

Yes, it has great priority, but there's been a list in the tactical discussion (at least there was a couple of months ago) of moves that beat whorenado. There was a lot.

Is very safe if used right

It's also very unsafe if used incorrectly. Whoa, magic.

and can be a graet option for recovering.

It's not a great option for recovering; probably MK's worst special for recovery.

It may be easy to DI,but you cannot punish it,which means free damage.It punishes Dodges and pressures shield.

Yeah it's 100% unpunishable, that's why it's so game-breaking now, right? You DI out, and dair down at MK, it's actually do-able, just practice it.

 

[ftl]

Yes, it has great priority, but there's been a list in the tactical discussion (at least there was a couple of months ago) of moves that beat whorenado. There was a lot.

It was Ulevo's thread. He deleted it, like he deleted all of his threads.

I saved all the info from it, I dunno what to do with it though.

What it had for Falco, re: moves that can beat out the tornado -

Falco

Blaster***
Reflector***
USmash***
Nair**
Dair**
Bair**


"***" rated moves are ones that work really well, easily override the Tornado, and are fairly simple to set up.

"**" rated moves are ones that usually require stricter timing to pull off, but are definitely useable if practiced. These moves may require for a character to hit a specific area of the Tornado.

Moves marked in Red are ones that work in every circumstance, regardless of where, when, or how the attack/projectile hit.

Moves marked in Blue are ones that require the attack to be used on the upper corner of the Tornado when the hitbox is thin, or overtop the Tornado and on Meta Knights head, such as a fast fall Dair or a Zair.

Moves marked in Green are ones that require the attack to be used underneath the Tornado or under Meta Knights body, such as a UTilt or USmash.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

punish tornado ending lag with phantasm, unless your right next to them.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Double stick DI up and out.


Yes, it has great priority, but there's been a list in the tactical discussion (at least there was a couple of months ago) of moves that beat whorenado. There was a lot.



It's also very unsafe if used incorrectly. Whoa, magic.


It's not a great option for recovering; probably MK's worst special for recovery.




Yeah it's 100% unpunishable, that's why it's so game-breaking now, right? You DI out, and dair down at MK, it's actually do-able, just practice it.

Their are moves that may beat it,but some start to slow or something else,its hard to punish if he does it up close.Plus he can do a fake out.

Lets assume that the MK is an expert,how many times do you think he will make a mistake with the nado?He knows how to use it correctly,what then?This is why we are talking about it right now?

No,DownB is the worst .Shuttle loop and his 5 jumps are the best.

I forgot to add hard in their,Nado can be punished with Dair,but A smart one will know this and basically do a hit and run nado.I was talking about every character in genral,seeing as you saying that its not really a great move.

 

[§witch]

It was Ulevo's thread. He deleted it, like he deleted all of his threads.

I saved all the info from it, I dunno what to do with it though.

Does anyone know why he deleted all of his threads? He was a great contributor.

Actually he should be at the tourney I'm going to today, I'll just ask him there.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

It's a lot easier to use the tornado correctly than it is to punish it. Tornado in, move out, land close to the ground. And a tornado over/around the ledge can screw up a lot of recoveries. I think the best way to stop the tornado is to put yourself in a position to where you can laser or reflect him out of it. Don't let him use it too close to you. Otherwise shield.

 

[Darxmarth23]

It's a lot easier to use the tornado correctly than it is to punish it. Tornado in, move out, land close to the ground. And a tornado over/around the ledge can screw up a lot of recoveries. I think the best way to stop the tornado is to put yourself in a position to where you can laser or reflect him out of it. Don't let him use it too close to you. Otherwise shield.

I like this. I would laser him out.

 

[Vlade]

Does anyone know why he deleted all of his threads? He was a great contributor.

Actually he should be at the tourney I'm going to today, I'll just ask him there.

Yeah, he deleted his falco combo thread here as well, which makes wonder if he deleted his Marth Guide.

I would like to hear why.

Anyway, let's get back on topic and keep discussing how to deal with the tornado

 

[J4pu]

Does anyone know why he deleted all of his threads? He was a great contributor.

Actually he should be at the tourney I'm going to today, I'll just ask him there.

don't leave us hanging, let us know what you find out

 

[Hawks go Caw]

don't leave us hanging, let us know what you find out

I demand a follow up! And move onto the next move?

 

[Vlade]

Yep, I'll update as soon as I have enough time

 

[:mad:]

Vlade! Shouldn't you be asleep n - oh wait.
Heha. Australia.

I like this thread, can't wait for the update. The tornado does give me some issues.

 

[Vlade]

I kinda wished I lived in FL lol.

Anyway, anyone got suggestions for the next move to discuss? I'm not sure what you guys want.

 

[Keitaro]

Tornado is a joke against Falco. If you smash DI right you can easily airdodge more than once out of a tornado. Besides that lasers easily turn a tornado into a side B which a MK can get ***** for afterwards. Down B also stops the nado but I don't use it.

Sometimes I purposely go into the tornado just to airdodge out and upsmash to death my opponent if they are at kill percent and I'm winning by a good amount.

 

[GMo]

What direction for the SDI? Up and out?

Diddy's Bananas for the next? Although a lot of tricks/best ways to handle are obvious (reflector), I'd like to know things like:

Whats the best option to grab the banana in the air? And other things of that nature

 

[J4pu]

grab button in the air grabs bananas w/o forcing you to do anything that lags
or aerial if they are close to you and you want to grab it and hit them away

 

[Denzi]

grab button in the air grabs bananas w/o forcing you to do anything that lags
or aerial if they are close to you and you want to grab it and hit them away

And grab right before hitting the ground lets you land while catching the bananna that's right below you. (you'll shield if you don't time it right/ hold it for too long though)

 

[Vlade]

Bump, lol. I'll update this when I get time.

But are there any requests for moves to discuss?

 

[Teran]

Marth's Dancing Blade?

Lol Vlade has 888 posts

 

[Vlade]

Marth's Dancing Blade it is.

Go me for getting 888 posts.

 

[Hyo]

Darn that dancing blade.. so quick and graceful..

 

[clowsui]

DB is used largely for punishment and not approach

The way to deal with DB is just...do stuff that can get you punished

 

[Denzi]

1.) Spotdodge the hits
2.) Shield
3.) Roll behind Marth.

1.) With proper timing, you can do this and probably jab Marth between the hits.
2.) Spotdoodge, roll, Bair OoS depending on direction, or grab if Marth spaces wrong.
3.) Follow up with whatever is appropriate in the situation.

If you actually get hit:
It's a tough mave to DI out of because Marth has so many options (up, down, forward)
If Marth hits you up, it's probably a good idea to DI away so he can't follow up with an aerial. When hit up at lower %s, just Dair him.
If Marth hits you straight it's either for the kill or to reset spacing, he doesn't really have any follow ups.
If he uses the green stabs your actions depend on how close you are to Marth.
If you're closer to him, DI towards him to get out, and if you're at the tip of the sword, DI away.

DB is used largely for punishment and not approach

The way to deal with DB is just... not do stuff that can get you punished

Fix'd for ya. And telling people to not get punished, while good advice, is unrealistic.

 

[clowsui]

1.) Spotdodge the hits
2.) Shield
3.) Roll behind Marth. (Rolling behind requires, like the spotdodge,

1.) With proper timing, you can do this and probably jab Marth between the hits. (I agree...timing is slim though.)
2.) Spotdoodge, roll, Bair OoS depending on direction, or grab if Marth spaces wrong. (DB has a slim margin of error. Also, DB 1 + DB 2...if only those two are done they are pretty safe on shield if not on block so he may actually be baiting a reaction. Furthermore delaying the DB makes any of these reactions basically a type of RPS.)
3.) Follow up with whatever is appropriate in the situation. (This strategy only works if you see DB coming...Marth is weak to strategic rolling, as once said by Steel2nd...which means you'd better start seeing DBs because your safest option isn't available otherwise.)

If you actually get hit:
It's a tough mave to DI out of because Marth has so many options (up, down, forward) (You want to mash the stick(s) outwards on the first or second hit. With good DI at mid percents you should be able to get out on the first two.)
If Marth hits you up, it's probably a good idea to DI away so he can't follow up with an aerial. When hit up at lower %s, just Dair him. (UDB isn't used until higher percents typically, in which case it's used to set up for a juggle trap. DI'ing away is your best option...but he will be able to follow up with an aerial if you don't win the rock-paper-scissors.)
If Marth hits you straight it's either for the kill or to reset spacing, he doesn't really have any follow ups. (It's for punishment, thus putting pressure on you + sometimes to reset spacing...Marth mostly kills by punishing too, actually.)
If he uses the green stabs your actions depend on how close you are to Marth.
If you're closer to him, DI towards him to get out, and if you're at the tip of the sword, DI away. (Most Marths just don't use DDB4 nowadays unless it's a very rare mixup >__>)


Comments in bold. Also, please tell me I'm not the only Falco main to go to C4 Galore

 

[Denzi]

DB 4 can be used to shield poke if Marth decides to continue instead of puling back at DB 1 or 2, which would explain someone getting caught in it.

 

[clowsui]

I play Marth and I find myself using DDB4 rarely b/c it's really easy to DI out (like on the first two to fourhits, there's seven lol) and you just get whacked because it takes forever to end

 

[Denzi]

I play Marth and I find myself using DDB4 rarely b/c it's really easy to DI out (like on the first two to fourhits, there's seven lol) and you just get whacked because it takes forever to end

I also play Marth and use it on people who shield a lot for shield pokes/pressure. not all the time, but I definitely use it.

 

[clowsui]

Pressuring shields w/ DDB4 is like...stupid against people like Snake, my most common opponent by far though >__> Like it ***** v. lower tiers and some fast fallers (it's pretty good vs. Falco but he can still DI out) but it's just....the risk v. reward is not really worth it if they take like 6% and then you get hit for 12 >__>

are you going to c4 galore?

 

[iPikmin]

just wombo combo

 

[Vlade]

Finally update the OP.

Would you guys be fine with discussing toon link's zair?