Yeah fine by me, unless somebody else has any objections.
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How to Deal with Specific Moves #8 & #9: Metaknight's Shuttle Loop + Diddy's Bananas
- Thread starter Vlade
- Start date
Denzi
Smash Master
Nah, it sounds good.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Alright, start discussing toon link's zair!
GO!!!
GO!!!
Hawks go Caw
Smash Ace
Zair autocancels. It's not punishable at tip range, so don't try to punish it. Sounds obvious right? If they have a bomb, they can follow up a Zair with bomb to Upsmash up to 90%. I think that's only if they hit with the tip though. If you're inside and get hit with the chain area, there's not as much hit stun. It's seriously too good as a spacing tool. Best advice is to either stay out of its range or get inside it.
gunterrsmash01
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2007
- Messages
- 2,533
Shieldgrab. thats all i do to it. and i play top toon links 
. and if they space it, just shield and then jab or reflector
. and if they space it, just shield and then jab or reflector
Shield and punish, or just shield. It's the only really failsafe way of dealing with it.
Lol circle jump lasers.
Lol circle jump lasers.
Sukai
Smash Champion
Power Shield, and grab his ***. Toon Link should never get that close unless Falco commands it.
Unless it's offstage, it's not a big worry for Falco.
Unless it's offstage, it's not a big worry for Falco.
Vlade
Social Outcast
If I remember correctly, reflector outranges it.
I am yet to put it into practice against toon link though, his aerials can be pretty nasty.
Like Ozz, I always shieldgrab poorly spaced zairs, but when I verse Corpsecreate (>_>) he never screws up his spacing with zair lol. I should probably start punishing more with jab combo.
I am yet to put it into practice against toon link though, his aerials can be pretty nasty.
Like Ozz, I always shieldgrab poorly spaced zairs, but when I verse Corpsecreate (>_>) he never screws up his spacing with zair lol. I should probably start punishing more with jab combo.
Denzi
Smash Master
But the lag time on reflector will make it so that TLink can follow up like he was planning to anyway. He still hits you, you're still put in a worse position, he just doesn't get as much damage.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
- 10,050
Take it from a Toon Link main.
Falco's reflectors suck for TL.
Falco's lasers are annoying for TL.
When shorthopped, Z-air is best avoided by perfect shield. After the perfect shield, TL is vulnerable until he hits the ground. If you're not in the position to do so, get out of it's range, and laser.
When high up in the air, air-dodge is very effective. Air-dodging is faster than gathering the hook shot. A quick air attack will do just fine.
I think discussing his projectiles would be more effective for this thread.
Falco's reflectors suck for TL.
Falco's lasers are annoying for TL.
When shorthopped, Z-air is best avoided by perfect shield. After the perfect shield, TL is vulnerable until he hits the ground. If you're not in the position to do so, get out of it's range, and laser.
When high up in the air, air-dodge is very effective. Air-dodging is faster than gathering the hook shot. A quick air attack will do just fine.
I think discussing his projectiles would be more effective for this thread.
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
Just shield it.
If he spaces poorly, grab and go.
If he spaces well, IAP OoS.
If he spaces poorly, grab and go.
If he spaces well, IAP OoS.
TL can Zair out of his airdodge, if timed correctly going through the reflectors trip frames and punish Falco's cooldown time
this is more annoying than the reflector since it puts pressure on TL's camping
the thing is there is no landing lag to a Zair, just saying, so right out of a landed Zair he can do any move, even dodge
Jab grab? I never full hop and Zair so I can't help you there
especially bombs
...
Take it from a Toon Link Main
To deal with our lovely zair.. powershield it. But if we space it well enough, you wont be able to do anything to punish us. To keep us from zairing, lazer spam. We can air dodge to zair, but if you mix it up, it'll make it harder for us.
This thread is a good idea.. I should steal it >=]
This thread is a good idea.. I should steal it >=]
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
Santi abuses TLink's air speed to make it seem like Zair reaches twice as far as it actually does.
Anyway, since a big thing for TLink is Airdodge->Zair->Bomb, what does everyone think of, if TLink Zairs with a Bomb, retreating SHReflector OoS?
If he throws, it should discourage from further Zair->Bomb approaches, which is great. If he runs in, the reflector should hit him anyway and give you enough time to get away.
Anyway, since a big thing for TLink is Airdodge->Zair->Bomb, what does everyone think of, if TLink Zairs with a Bomb, retreating SHReflector OoS?
If he throws, it should discourage from further Zair->Bomb approaches, which is great. If he runs in, the reflector should hit him anyway and give you enough time to get away.
xXFrosTXx
Smash Cadet
What about Yoshi's Dair
Vlade
Social Outcast
Omg I'll get round to updating this later
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
idk if you guys know this but you can drop you shield at parts of GnW's bair and jab through it....
Denzi
Smash Master
I had no clue.
We really need to keep up with this thread.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Good idea, I'll update in a moment or so
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
That would require 7 shield drop frames and 2 jab frames, aka gaws bair needs a 9 frame interval, and then it has to be timed perfectly.
I do not believe.
M@v
Subarashii!
Tl's zair is a pain if he spaces it right. He can followup with a bunch of stuff. If he doesnt, you can punish. Even better, laser spam to make him avoid using it at all.
Jupz
Smash Master
I don't think you can jab him out of it but you can shieldgrab between the 4th and 5th hits if its mispaced. Well at least DDD can.
Mota
"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
TL Zair is a great spacer and "combos" into a host of moves, even when Powershielded a good TL won't get punished due to the auto cancel and distance.
Always expect a Zair from a SH, especially if the TL is too far to land any of his other sword attacks. AD towards it and punish, not sure if Falco downB outranges but even so it's quite effective.
You guys should discuss TL's OHKO.
Always expect a Zair from a SH, especially if the TL is too far to land any of his other sword attacks. AD towards it and punish, not sure if Falco downB outranges but even so it's quite effective.
You guys should discuss TL's OHKO.
HYPE!
Denzi
Smash Master
Isn't it just a simple matter of not being in Dsmash range after a Z-dropped bomb?
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Neh it's cancelling the second hit of dsmash with the bomb hit, thus giving the gimp effect that you've seen on yoshi's before.
To situational, and hard to time. **** if it works though
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
characters who have quick jabs like peach and falco can do it
praxis was showing me
also praxis says that apparently you can drop shield and usmash before the last hit but i havent seen it done before
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Vlade
Social Outcast
Updated! (finally)
This time we're going to be discussing 2 moves: MK's shuttle loop and diddy's bananas
GO!!!
This time we're going to be discussing 2 moves: MK's shuttle loop and diddy's bananas
GO!!!
King Funk
Int. Croc. Alligator
Shuttle Loop is a very versatile move that can be used in many situations, as offense or defense. But the offensive part is the one that matters, because it's the only one we can do something about.
From below MK, a well timed Bair or Nair can hit MK out of shuttle loop. If you're above him, you can try timing an aerial but most of the time it won't work, your best move is to move back towards the stage and time an airdodge.
Notra
Smash Ace
dairing when u r hit in the air by shuttle loop will make u still take knock back but alot less. also shielding shuttle loop then full hop bair or dair, can hit him out. ALSO, if u shield shuttle loop u can reverse boost up smash the mk when he lands. itll either clash w/ the glide atk or hit the mk. how i kill mk usually(provided they spam shuttle loop)
Diddys bananas. if u get mind ****ed by them, then always jump after they hit ur shield. cause its most likely they will be sliding in for a grab if u just stand there. reflector is amazing of course but if u over spam ull get mind gamed. Also for diddys in general. glide toss to grab works on them too, just like it works on us. chaingrab to dair, to bair stage spike works wonders.
naners r our friends too. mmm peanut butter banana sandwich(bread peanuts and naners)
Diddys bananas. if u get mind ****ed by them, then always jump after they hit ur shield. cause its most likely they will be sliding in for a grab if u just stand there. reflector is amazing of course but if u over spam ull get mind gamed. Also for diddys in general. glide toss to grab works on them too, just like it works on us. chaingrab to dair, to bair stage spike works wonders.
naners r our friends too. mmm peanut butter banana sandwich(bread peanuts and naners)
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
I'm only gonna comment on the nanners b/c i think shuttle loop is a joke unless MK chains it right.(Yes, I'm really saying this. Laugh away)
Shine when Diddy releases the nanners in midair to change control. Watch out for zair drops and try to predict him if he craws under reflector spam to dodge it.
You could camp, but I prefer aggro b/c I really don't like giving Diddy a chance to get his nanners working. Your glide toss is longer, so...yeah.
Shine when Diddy releases the nanners in midair to change control. Watch out for zair drops and try to predict him if he craws under reflector spam to dodge it.
You could camp, but I prefer aggro b/c I really don't like giving Diddy a chance to get his nanners working. Your glide toss is longer, so...yeah.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
2 kinds of banana flingers: n00by and smart
n00by involves getting to banana and throwing it at you without much cause for consideraton of the situation. This should be easy to predict and reflect/shield against them.
Smart will hold onto the bananas trying to bait a reflector or something else. (This is given you aren't in the middle of being juggled, offstage or something like that). Smart players you need to read there methods of trying to bait you and judge accordingly with reflector and Pshielding when needed. Really need to learn this to prevent getting owned when you mess up. At the very least the reflector is a psych. barrier for some. Sort of like our lasers against a G&W even though they will hardly ever get the bucket out, we use so fewer lasers.
Anyone disagree go ahead and refute my points. What do I know, I haven't played in tourneys or anything.
n00by involves getting to banana and throwing it at you without much cause for consideraton of the situation. This should be easy to predict and reflect/shield against them.
Smart will hold onto the bananas trying to bait a reflector or something else. (This is given you aren't in the middle of being juggled, offstage or something like that). Smart players you need to read there methods of trying to bait you and judge accordingly with reflector and Pshielding when needed. Really need to learn this to prevent getting owned when you mess up. At the very least the reflector is a psych. barrier for some. Sort of like our lasers against a G&W even though they will hardly ever get the bucket out, we use so fewer lasers.
Anyone disagree go ahead and refute my points. What do I know, I haven't played in tourneys or anything.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Go to a tourney this weekend
zyklon
Smash Cadet
Having played a diddy main fairly often and seeing other people in action against him in tourneys, I can honestly say that the best advice for diddy's bananas is to just not let him have control of them. If you just sit back and try to camp him too much, he'll be able to set up massive banana strings and rack up the damage, so what you really need to do is just use the bananas back against diddy and he's pretty much screwed in that regard, which also makes you much harder for him to kill due to his lack of kill power and lack of banana to create an opening...
Keitaro
Banned via Administration
I like the matchup vs Diddy, especially since I have 2ndaried Diddy for a while and now co-main him with Falco.
From my experience vs Alphazeolot, a Diddy that tends to be very fast and throw bananas directly at you almost all the time, don't be afraid to use reflector. If they learn to jump and throw bananas on your head above the reflector, predict and jump reflector.
From playing ADHD and NinjaLink, they tend to hold on to bananas, get close to me, and try to throw them at my feet, even when I'm blocking (cause bananas are stupid and may still trip you while blocking). This is where you get the hell away quickly, lol!
Spotdodging is very bad against bananas as most Diddy's will try to have them land at your feet. Blocking them is a very good option. After a block you can easily jump and Z grab them which leaves the Diddy with one less banana for use atm.
As for what to do when you have the banana.....I tend to use it against the Diddy at first, then throw them out later. It mindgames the Diddy into thinking you're going to throw it at them so they'll dash attack at you but after jump throwing it away you can then dair, bair, nair to grab, etc.
From my experience vs Alphazeolot, a Diddy that tends to be very fast and throw bananas directly at you almost all the time, don't be afraid to use reflector. If they learn to jump and throw bananas on your head above the reflector, predict and jump reflector.
From playing ADHD and NinjaLink, they tend to hold on to bananas, get close to me, and try to throw them at my feet, even when I'm blocking (cause bananas are stupid and may still trip you while blocking). This is where you get the hell away quickly, lol!
Spotdodging is very bad against bananas as most Diddy's will try to have them land at your feet. Blocking them is a very good option. After a block you can easily jump and Z grab them which leaves the Diddy with one less banana for use atm.
As for what to do when you have the banana.....I tend to use it against the Diddy at first, then throw them out later. It mindgames the Diddy into thinking you're going to throw it at them so they'll dash attack at you but after jump throwing it away you can then dair, bair, nair to grab, etc.
thexsunrosered
Smash Lord
Have you guys done extensive testing into Dthrowing into a banana? I know Ganons have done stupid amounts of testing, but we have banana locks on diddy for crazy amounts of damage; even a GUARANTEED WARLOCK PUNCH AT ANY PERCENT. :]]
Just saying, its nice to do some testing
Just saying, its nice to do some testing
ZeroUnderOne
Smash Apprentice
I've dair'd from above to knock mk out of shuttle loop but it isn't consistent like mario's dair. Nair from below also works pretty well imo, but most of the time I try to avoid it because it has mad priority and he can wing attack out of it. Attacking it is very situational.
Sometime I try to mindgame by jumping towards and airdodging to get them to use wing attack early so that I can get a free hit when they get landing lag. If the wing attack is close to the ground (and if you are near) they usually follow with dsmash/another loop/grab/spotdodge, some of which can net you a jab combo/jabjabgrab if you are patient.
Sometime I try to mindgame by jumping towards and airdodging to get them to use wing attack early so that I can get a free hit when they get landing lag. If the wing attack is close to the ground (and if you are near) they usually follow with dsmash/another loop/grab/spotdodge, some of which can net you a jab combo/jabjabgrab if you are patient.
Hawks go Caw
Smash Ace
Edit: FML. Wrong thread again
Uhh, against the Shuttle Loop I:
Throw Controller Down Angrily (TCDA) > Scream Profanities
Against bananas, I shoot lasers or Bair if I'm close enough when Diddy's pulling them out. It's easy percentages and can interrupt sometimes. I occasionally reflect, but I don't go for it too often simply because it's not hard for Diddy to regain control and I've been punished before for from it.
For bananas in play, I just don't deal with trying to use them and just throw them off immediately. When they go for another, more lasers, grab banana, throw it off stage.
Uhh, against the Shuttle Loop I:
Throw Controller Down Angrily (TCDA) > Scream Profanities
Against bananas, I shoot lasers or Bair if I'm close enough when Diddy's pulling them out. It's easy percentages and can interrupt sometimes. I occasionally reflect, but I don't go for it too often simply because it's not hard for Diddy to regain control and I've been punished before for from it.
For bananas in play, I just don't deal with trying to use them and just throw them off immediately. When they go for another, more lasers, grab banana, throw it off stage.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
If Diddy turns around, jumps, and starts pulling bananas out with his back towards you, you can reflect the bananas before they hit the ground and they're yours.