#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Vlade says:
SH > autocancel nair > jab > grab
seems valid
SH > autocancel nair > jab > grab
seems valid
-
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How to Deal with Specific Moves #8 & #9: Metaknight's Shuttle Loop + Diddy's Bananas
- Thread starter Vlade
- Start date
Denzi
Smash Master
So just jump over it? That seems perfectly reasonable. (I think that the jab before the grab might be overdoing it though.)
I was discussing this in the chat with Vlade. Chat box efficiency ftw.
I've always found empty SHing and SH Airdodge limits the effectiveness of PK Fire spam, so it makes them turn to other things. That way, rather than having to deal with it directly, we can prevent it. Well, it's what I do to Ness players I face. I'm not a big fan of reflecting it though because of the lack of its range and its slightly diagonal trajectory.
I've always found empty SHing and SH Airdodge limits the effectiveness of PK Fire spam, so it makes them turn to other things. That way, rather than having to deal with it directly, we can prevent it. Well, it's what I do to Ness players I face. I'm not a big fan of reflecting it though because of the lack of its range and its slightly diagonal trajectory.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
and phantasm has some invincibility frames, thus it can be used as approach, though its not really smart because the ending lag allows the ness to punish you
Denzi
Smash Master
Crazy Hobo
Smash Cadet
Ness's side B is not a problem. It is very laggy, and the range isn't very good. Also, since it goes at a downward angle the best thing to do is jump over it. Ness can't eve do anything until the PK Fire hits the ground. The only problem I can think of is if he does it in the air and you don't expect it. Also watch out for it if you're hanging on the ledge, it can hit you off and the pillar bring you downwards.
If you're getting ledge guarded by Ness, the only feasible thing I could see a Falco doing is to DI away from it (preferrably inward) and then firebird-sweetspot the ledge.
In order for him to hit you off the stage, he has to jump if you're under. If you're above , he can shoot it straight. This means that in order for Falco to effectively dodge it, he has to phantasm onto the stage above Ness (ugh), or sweet-spot the ledge. If you're attempting to phantasm at his ground level (like I see a lot of Falco's do, trying to punish I guess), just forget it. That thing is like a wall, and you can't expect to phantasm through it.
Alternatively, you can try and firebird vertically from under the stage, but don't over guess firebird; you're usually wrong.
On the stage, Ness will try his best to nail you with it so he can follow up with a grab, bat, or dash attack.
Um not quite sure, but I heard that SDI really helps getting out of it, especially at higher percents when it really matters.
I often like to reflector, as well as ledge jump reflector; he may use it as means to punish just as you're getting back on the ledge.
Interesting that you thought of jumping over it. Funny how often the most obvious answers are not clear to us.
In order for him to hit you off the stage, he has to jump if you're under. If you're above , he can shoot it straight. This means that in order for Falco to effectively dodge it, he has to phantasm onto the stage above Ness (ugh), or sweet-spot the ledge. If you're attempting to phantasm at his ground level (like I see a lot of Falco's do, trying to punish I guess), just forget it. That thing is like a wall, and you can't expect to phantasm through it.
Alternatively, you can try and firebird vertically from under the stage, but don't over guess firebird; you're usually wrong.
On the stage, Ness will try his best to nail you with it so he can follow up with a grab, bat, or dash attack.
Um not quite sure, but I heard that SDI really helps getting out of it, especially at higher percents when it really matters.
I often like to reflector, as well as ledge jump reflector; he may use it as means to punish just as you're getting back on the ledge.
Interesting that you thought of jumping over it. Funny how often the most obvious answers are not clear to us.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Another problem with this move is when you're recovering. What if Ness decides to PK fire you, then follow it up with a midair jump + dair spike? It's very deadly, particularly if falco has to start up his firebird where he's very vulnerable.
Something to watch out for next time you verse a Ness.
Something to watch out for next time you verse a Ness.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Wouldn't be ok to SH, use reflector and manuever back to the same spot so you'll be safe regardless during the afterlag. I use such a tactic alot.
Denzi
Smash Master
Pillar Spiking. I'd think the best way to avoid it would be to try to recover at an angle that makes it difficult to hit you (remember aerial PK fire travels downwards at 45°).
If you're hit, you're done for unless the Ness messes up.
Vlade
Social Outcast
In this case we should avoid firebirding due to the fact that we'll get hit by PK Fire.
Denzi
Smash Master
That's much easier said then done.
Vlade
Social Outcast
True, but it's important to TRY and avoid using the firebird 
bowz
Smash Journeyman
I never try to reflector ness' pk fire. He can heal himself with it. Instead I perfect shield it or if it hits, smash DI out of it. If you pay close enough attention, you'll see the pk fire coming and you'll have enough time to jump or perfect shield it, then follow up.
Denzi
Smash Master
But that's true no matter who you're facing.True, but it's important to TRY and avoid using the firebird
Vlade
Social Outcast
^
I give up.
I give up.
Mikey7
Smash Lord
PK fire = predictable therefore powershield.
EDIT: if you get hit, smash DI up. Nowhere else.
EDIT: if you get hit, smash DI up. Nowhere else.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Anymore solutions? I think we've covered everything although there might be something else...
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
do a barrel roll (aka use roll to avoid it)
BBoyindo
Smash Ace
I don't think that if you reflect it, he has enough time to put his psi magnet up. I think he would still be in the after lag of the attack.
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
Does anyone know if there's a solid way for Ness to use PK Thunder to gimp your second jump and force a Firebird?
bowz
Smash Journeyman
Reflecting it hits him, then he down b's. Trust me, Ive made the mistake before... I think. lol
TheRazaman
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2008
- Messages
- 89
PK Fire seems to be discussed well. Perhaps next topic? I suggest Sheik's Ftilt.....that **** sucks.
Crazy Hobo
Smash Cadet
When you are off the stage Ness will generally use PK Thunder to get some percent on you. The best way for him to do this is to send it to where you will be and then loop it so you jump into it. I don't think this will make it easy for Ness to gimp you because, when the head hits you you are sent upwards. At about 100% this should bring you up to the ledge.
Phantom7
Banned via Warnings
Yes it does, especially when Sheik locks it and you can't get out, at least you can reflect PK Fire if you're close enough.
Agreed, Sheik is broken. Let's discuss her ftilt.
So from what I've heard, Sheik has a deadly ftilt lock on Falco, resulting in a usmash or dsmash depending how you DI.
That being said, wouldn't the best way to counter sheiks Ftilt is to just stay away from it?
I know it sounds easier said than done, but Sheik has only needles for projectiles. This means that you have a lot of space to IAP, laser, and reflect when necessary. Now sure she moves fast, but the ftilt can only be pulled off when she's standing or walking.
That being said, if you're hit, the only thing you can do is SDI towards Sheik. Yes it takes a while, but eventually you get out, and if you pull your shield the instant you are free, you should be able to shield that **** fast dsmash.
Avoid SDIing away. It takes forever, she can just walk and reset it, and then what? End with a usmash. ouch.
That being said, wouldn't the best way to counter sheiks Ftilt is to just stay away from it?
I know it sounds easier said than done, but Sheik has only needles for projectiles. This means that you have a lot of space to IAP, laser, and reflect when necessary. Now sure she moves fast, but the ftilt can only be pulled off when she's standing or walking.
That being said, if you're hit, the only thing you can do is SDI towards Sheik. Yes it takes a while, but eventually you get out, and if you pull your shield the instant you are free, you should be able to shield that **** fast dsmash.
Avoid SDIing away. It takes forever, she can just walk and reset it, and then what? End with a usmash. ouch.
superglucose
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2008
- Messages
- 127
Sheiks' needles are made of refined hyrulian win though, so don't discount Sheik's camping ability. It's nothing compared to ours, of course... but those things still hurt.
Denzi
Smash Master
^That made me lol
I've heard that it's best to DI diagonally down towards Sheik while holding sheild.
Denzi
Smash Master
Vlade
Social Outcast
I'll update OP when I can be bothered
Vlade
Social Outcast
Updated.
We're now discussing sheik's ftilt. I'll add images once I can get the dimensions of my snapshots down. If anyone can help, please PM me or contact me on irc.
Let the 4th discussion begin!
We're now discussing sheik's ftilt. I'll add images once I can get the dimensions of my snapshots down. If anyone can help, please PM me or contact me on irc.
Let the 4th discussion begin!
gunterrsmash01
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2007
- Messages
- 2,533
Crazy Hobo
Smash Cadet
I haven't found any good shieks in my area so I don't know how gay this move is, but I guess the general strategy is stay away. Laser from one end, when she gets close phantasm to the other. Just try to hit her and retreat.
J4pu
Smash Champion
A good sheik in my area said to (smash) DI towards sheik.
it's still a good 3-4 hits + Dsmash though.
Don't use spot dodge to avoid since they can repeat it so fast you will sooner or later get caught by one.
it's still a good 3-4 hits + Dsmash though.
Don't use spot dodge to avoid since they can repeat it so fast you will sooner or later get caught by one.
pawnch
Smash Cadet
bdhtjry
yea i main falco, and sheik's forward tilt is ridiculous against me. what i do to counter this is just to spam short hop double lasers. that way, sheik cannot get close to me.
yea i main falco, and sheik's forward tilt is ridiculous against me. what i do to counter this is just to spam short hop double lasers. that way, sheik cannot get close to me.
J4pu
Smash Champion
and then sheik crawls...yea i main falco, and sheik's forward tilt is ridiculous against me. what i do to counter this is just to spam short hop double lasers. that way, sheik cannot get close to me.
try thinking about what an intelligent sheik would do rather than how your friend walks straight into the lasers.