Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[Vulcan55]

An SD card.
The closest Digital camera/tech store

 

[TokiDoki]

and twilight princess I think

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

WE ARE ADDING TECH SKILL W00T- Our focus shouldn't be on making things harder. That's not the point. We are trying to expand the players option. The view that L-canceling is preferred over S-canceling simply cause it requires accurate timing is not in the best interest of the game competitively. We should base our decisions on what makes the game better, and not what adds to the amount of time you spend practicing tech skill. Judging from what I've seen with the new hacks, there should be plenty of tech heavy things for players to use after we have had some time with a polished Melee 2.0.

OUR? so now you colored blokes care after all the peasants here screwed around with it?

 

[LeeHarris]

OUR? so now you colored blokes care after all the peasants here screwed around with it?

We've been talking about it way before it even became a thread here.

 

[MookieRah]

I was just called coloured and a bloke in the same sentence! Definitely a new experience.

 

[MBlaze]

I agree with everything except auto-L cancel.

 

[M15t3R E]

I agree with everything except auto-L cancel.

Auto-L cancel?
?
No one's trying to make a hack for that. L cancel, yes. Auto- L cancel, no. No one wants that for Brawl+.

 

[leafgreen386]

Auto-L cancel?
?
No one's trying to make a hack for that. L cancel, yes. Auto- L cancel, no. No one wants that for Brawl+.

Wrong. Several people are in support of the auto-l-cancel, including myself. Go read the S-cancel vs L-cancel thread. There's a link in the main brawl+ thread. It essentially boils down to l-canceling being a meaningless extra button press that does not serve to increase options in any way shape or form, as it is always the best thing to do in 100% of situations, and failing results in the same thing as had you not attempted it. In a game between two skilled players, there will be no missed l-cancels. The end result is exactly the same whether it's manual or auto. We shouldn't be trying to increase the tech skill in brawl for an arbitrary reason. We should be trying to increase the options in any given situation to increase depth. The difference in depth between manual l-canceling vs automatic l-canceling is terribly insignificant, which is why auto l-canceling would be preferable.

 

[M15t3R E]

Wrong. Several people are in support of the auto-l-cancel, including myself. Go read the S-cancel vs L-cancel thread. There's a link in the main brawl+ thread. It essentially boils down to l-canceling being a meaningless extra button press that does not serve to increase options in any way shape or form, as it is always the best thing to do in 100% of situations, and failing results in the same thing as had you not attempted it. In a game between two skilled players, there will be no missed l-cancels. The end result is exactly the same whether it's manual or auto. We shouldn't be trying to increase the tech skill in brawl for an arbitrary reason. We should be trying to increase the options in any given situation to increase depth. The difference in depth between manual l-canceling vs automatic l-canceling is terribly insignificant, which is why auto l-canceling would be preferable.

You do make sense. I can support auto-l cancel. I was never really against it.
Do realize though, that any form of lag canceling will result in some characters, such as Ike and Ganondorf, skyrocketing up the tier list. Additionally, a select few characters, most-notably Peach, will become worse in comparison as all her aerials already auto-cancel.

 

[kupo15]

You do make sense. I can support auto-l cancel. I was never really against it.
Do realize though, that any form of lag canceling will result in some characters, such as Ike and Ganondorf, skyrocketing up the tier list. Additionally, a select few characters, most-notably Peach, will become worse in comparison as all her aerials already auto-cancel.

Thats the point. lol We are trying to fairly make things more equal.

I support auto l cancel for the reasons stated above and also, some ppl dont need to learn it like MK, samus, pit, and that combined with it being harder, it will be pointless to make some ppl have to learn it to be at an equal level with those who dont have to.

 

[Finns7]

How will all this hit stun stuff effect CG D3's mainly? I dont mind Falcos or IC

 

[SonicZeroX]

Wrong. Several people are in support of the auto-l-cancel, including myself. Go read the S-cancel vs L-cancel thread. There's a link in the main brawl+ thread. It essentially boils down to l-canceling being a meaningless extra button press that does not serve to increase options in any way shape or form, as it is always the best thing to do in 100% of situations, and failing results in the same thing as had you not attempted it. In a game between two skilled players, there will be no missed l-cancels. The end result is exactly the same whether it's manual or auto. We shouldn't be trying to increase the tech skill in brawl for an arbitrary reason. We should be trying to increase the options in any given situation to increase depth. The difference in depth between manual l-canceling vs automatic l-canceling is terribly insignificant, which is why auto l-canceling would be preferable.

Whoever was against auto l-cancel BEFORE reading this post say I.

I :x

 

[Glick]

Wrong. Several people are in support of the auto-l-cancel, including myself. Go read the S-cancel vs L-cancel thread. There's a link in the main brawl+ thread. It essentially boils down to l-canceling being a meaningless extra button press that does not serve to increase options in any way shape or form, as it is always the best thing to do in 100% of situations, and failing results in the same thing as had you not attempted it. In a game between two skilled players, there will be no missed l-cancels. The end result is exactly the same whether it's manual or auto. We shouldn't be trying to increase the tech skill in brawl for an arbitrary reason. We should be trying to increase the options in any given situation to increase depth. The difference in depth between manual l-canceling vs automatic l-canceling is terribly insignificant, which is why auto l-canceling would be preferable.

No.

This is stupid. This will literally break characters. Auto L cancel is stupid. A lot of peoples problem with brawl is that theres isn't much separating the good and bad players. This is something that can. It makes Brawl harder and thats what all of this brawl 2.0 crap is really about.

 

[Revven]

No.

This is stupid. This will literally break characters. Auto L cancel is stupid. A lot of peoples problem with brawl is that theres isn't much separating the good and bad players. This is something that can. It makes Brawl harder and thats what all of this brawl 2.0 crap is really about.

Yeah but... we're already separating ourselves from the casuals by hacking the game... so your point is kind of moot unless it's someone who hasn't played Brawl+ before and wants to and we have auto L-Canceling on... THEN your point is correct.

 

[MBlaze]

I agree and support every last thing for Brawl+ excpt Auto L-cancelling, I just find it dumb as hell. That would just break Snake, D3 and other's without that extra button press. It would be easier than S cancel in fact... Just don't start to go too far with what we can do than what we should do..

 

[Crizthakidd]

i miss ledge techs, and crouch canceling. i know too little of coding to work it myself tho =[

 

[kupo15]

How will all this hit stun stuff effect CG D3's mainly? I dont mind Falcos or IC

It doesnt affect them i believe because it doesnt affect flinch hit stun.

No.

This is stupid. This will literally break characters. Auto L cancel is stupid. A lot of peoples problem with brawl is that theres isn't much separating the good and bad players. This is something that can. It makes Brawl harder and thats what all of this brawl 2.0 crap is really about.

Is it fair that ganon as well as 95% of the cast have to learn a harder l cancel and MK, samus..do not? How does this harder button timing separate players' skill when everyone does not have to do it? Separating players should be from smart moves and movement, not hampered because you missed the l cancel. The main reason why it was more effective before is that all characters had to do it.

 

[MuBa]

I'd say if we were to get auto-cancel in Brawl+ we should have a universal land lag (like 15 frames or something) to prevent characters like Fox to infinite the crap out of their opponents.

 

[MBlaze]

I'd say if we were to get auto-cancel in Brawl+ we should have a universal land lag (like 15 frames or something) to prevent characters like Fox to infinite the crap out of their opponents.

I say we shouldn't have it in at all, what about the mindgames from not cancelling? If someone were to predict my next move and strike there I'd use the lag to my advantage and strike unexpectedly.

L-Cancel I'm completely for but auto, not at all...

 

[Fenrir]

Auto L-Canceling? Naaah. Whether or not pressing a button takes "skill" or whatever is a debate I won't get into, but the fact that there is the possibility of error that depends on the player (and not something beyond control like tripping) makes L-canceling interesting.

 

[kupo15]

But where is the risk for (all moves auto l canceled) MK, samus, peach (and the many others who have 3 auto l canceled aerials) missing an l cancel?

Is it ok that luigi, pika, pit, ganon, charazard and bowser have to learn this harder l cancel since none of their moves are auto l canceled?

How are you making it more exciting when some are made with auto l cancel and some are not, and some are in the middle?

 

[Fenrir]

Eh, I'm not much a fan of auto-canceled moves as they are in Brawl in the first place. And I don't find it that horrible of a fate for some characters to rely on L-canceling more than others. You just adapt and it ceases to be a problem, if it ever was one in the first place.

 

[petrie911]

Eh, I'm not much a fan of auto-canceled moves as they are in Brawl in the first place. And I don't find it that horrible of a fate for some characters to rely on L-canceling more than others. You just adapt and it ceases to be a problem, if it ever was one in the first place.

Yes, but button press L-cancelling not being that horrible is not a reason to use it over auto-L-cancelling. Keep in mind that auto-L-cancelling would not have the same effect as autocancelling. It would halve the lag of all aerials upon landing, whereas autocancelling removes all the lag of an aerial.

Perhaps we could compromise and say that aerials only automatically L-cancel if fastfallen. IIRC, that's how it was in the E3 demo.

 

[Eten]

I have no problem with normal l-cancel. I think it would seem a little weird if you had half of the landing lag EVERY single time you hit the ground with an aerial, and not just the times you told the game you wanted it. All you have to do is press a button anyway.

 

[MBlaze]

I have no problem with normal l-cancel. I think it would seem a little weird if you had half of the landing lag EVERY single time you hit the ground with an aerial, and not just the times you told the game you wanted it. All you have to do is press a button anyway.

This.

I'd rather auto anything not be in Brawl+. If we put in auto l cancelling what would be the point of taking out auto sweetspotting?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

because you never had to press a button to grab a ledge? lol?

and i only want auto l cancelling for online matches as i'd assume that'd probably cause a lot less desynchs.

 

[metaXzero]

Isn't there a thread for Lag cancel somewhere?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I was just called coloured and a bloke in the same sentence! Definitely a new experience.

I get called coloured and accussed of being a thief every week.....can we trade experiences
I also agree with your stance on things.

 

[kupo15]

Question about the current hitstun. Is there a difference between the amount of hit stun in 1.1 vs 1.2? I thought someone said PW programmed it for a set amount of stun instead of a variable. Is there any confirmation on this? I have a strange feeling that there is more hit stun in 1.1.

Oh and please move your lag cancel discussion to the proper thread please.

 

[kupo15]

Boy I would love to see epic combos like these come back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmjhi4vhuD0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRIhwA0JWT0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWmw7FOf-n8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FJyKRfxHz8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS_jz5t3lZs

Of course you can wall tech out of some of these. What would make these combo's harder in Brawl+ would be adjusting for your opponents DI since DI is so strong. I have been testing several characters out and so far, only 3 Ive found have moves with combo potential. Everyone else's moves push ppl away like in 64. I also noticed that they had better air speed than brawl. So with better DI, slower air speed, laggier moves, everything seems to balance out with 64 hit stun. This means the combos wont be cookie cutter and something you can memorize in training mode like 64

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

I need to see a video that shows the hit-stun with this code (showing the difference between the two)

 

[JacobWins]

I want the combo at the beginning of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99WmKGOGCs

 

[Ojanya]

Still not enough hitstun, imo. I would love s-canceling + 64 hitstun. That would be so sweet.

 

[kupo15]

We are waiting for PW to make another code with increased hitstun and to fix the current glitch. I hope he is working on it seeing that he hasnt confirmed that he was. I might PM him at the end of the week if he doesn't have another one to see whats up without rushing him.

 

[Eten]

Try non-bugged current hitstun FIRST before amping up hitstun. And please, consider that developing combos is not something that's going to come easily and it SHOULD take quite a bit of effort to develop really good ones. Increasing hitstun before really evaluating all of what you can do with normal "fixed" hitstun without the glitch is just recipe for getting a broken game.

 

[kupo15]

Try non-bugged current hitstun FIRST before amping up hitstun. And please, consider that developing combos is not something that's going to come easily and it SHOULD take quite a bit of effort to develop really good ones. Increasing hitstun before really evaluating all of what you can do with normal "fixed" hitstun without the glitch is just recipe for getting a broken game.

Trust me, I understand what comboing should be. And yes, we need to get rid of the bugs first. Speaking of bugs, I found another one.

The hitstun code does not apply to when you bounce off of walls.

 

[zxeon]

Someone needs to put all the bugs the code has in one post so they can be kept track of.

 

[JacobWins]

The hitstun code does not apply to when you bounce off of walls.

Not likely we'll be comboing off walls anyway

 

[kupo15]

Not likely we'll be comboing off walls anyway

What does it matter? It should still be in there. I occasionally like playing at the Pirate ship or Shadow mosses island. And who is to say you will tech every wall?

Yes, I have a list of bugs under my hit stun thread, but Windowl should include them also.

-The hit stun code does not work for twirl hit stun
-The hit stun code does not work for bouncing off of wall stun

 

[err]

except for edgeguarding. but even then, that's all tech-able