Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[Wind Owl]

"Wow Meta Knight Brilliant"? >.>

 

[kupo15]

jw, does anyone know if Phantom wings got word about no air dodging in tumble and an increase inn hitstun overall and maybe a way so we can tweak it ourselves without bothering him too much? I hope so...

 

[JacobWins]

jw, does anyone know if Phantom wings got word about no air dodging in tumble and an increase inn hitstun overall and maybe a way so we can tweak it ourselves without bothering him too much? I hope so...

That shouldnt be necessary with melee airdodging

 

[kupo15]

well considering that if you can escape now regardless of which air dodge system you use (because of the low amount of hitstun even with the current hack) melee air dodge wont correct comboing.

I understand where your coming from but if you escape a hit with the melee air dodge (due to not enough hitstun) then get hit again because you are open from the air dodge, that is not comboing (in a way). That is called juggling.

Comboing is where you string together multiple hits and your opponent cant do anything about it which is what the increased hitstun will do.

In melee there were combos because there was an appropriate amount of hitstun, not because of the air dodge system. If you messed up the combo in melee which enabled their escape via an air dodge, then if you hit them after the air dodge, it is a juggle. Then if you string together multiple hits without the ability to defend themselves from the juggle, its a combo.

Right now, regardless of which air dodge system you use, your main form of attack is juggling. While juggling is a form of comboing, with the increased hitstun, we will have true combos to add to the form of combing we have now (juggling) which is what we want.

Main point: We want to bring back true comboing like we saw in melee and 64, the kind where they cant do anything to defend themselves except DI

 

[zxeon]

There is an issue with the hitstun code. Ganondorf's thunderstomp doesnt work for some reason. It's like there isn't enough time for it to come out midair. For some reason you cant start it as quickly as you normally would jumping off the ground.

 

[M15t3R E]

Main point: We want to bring back true comboing like we saw in melee and 64, the kind where they cant do anything to defend themselves except DI

Here's a radical suggestion: Don't be looking to emulate Melee's level of hitstun into Brawl just yet. Produce hacks for slightly increased hitstun first and see how it goes.
This should iron out some of the bugs and speaking of bugging, it'll bug the anti-Brawl+ players less if you're just trying to add slightly increased hitstun.

 

[poklin]

i have gravity on and i can stomp with gdorf just find. i dont know if you guys are talking about auto cancel or now but why does that matter with l- cancel>

 

[kupo15]

There is an issue with the hitstun code. Ganondorf's thunderstomp doesnt work for some reason. It's like there isn't enough time for it to come out midair. For some reason you cant start it as quickly as you normally would jumping off the ground.

Yea, its a bug in the hitstun hack. i added bugs to the OP

Here's a radical suggestion: Don't be looking to emulate Melee's level of hitstun into Brawl just yet. Produce hacks for slightly increased hitstun first and see how it goes.
This should iron out some of the bugs and speaking of bugging, it'll bug the anti-Brawl+ players less if you're just trying to add slightly increased hitstun.

But the problem is, the current default hitstun for the game is not enough to even be that effective. A lot of move flinch enemies instead of putting them into tumble which doesnt affect hitstun and then when they are ready to go from flinch to tumble mode, the knockback is too high for the damage they are at to combo. Plus, almost all moves in the game are programmed to push ppl away instead of staying close to avoid combos. The current hitstun code helps but a few moves like Pit's dthrow...but not enough to really make a difference

this is why 64 had ridiculous hitstun, and this is why brawl needs it as well.

(bolded) like yourself?

 

[Someone7]

The hitstun code is buggy, and only lets your string together a very limited number of moves. The only really obvious thing I saw was ROB can do a down/up throw and do a f-air/n-air/u-air up to fairly high percentages. I also think Falco can now chaingrab a lot better, but you can never tell with CPUs.

This hitstun code doesn't do what it is supposed to, and I think there isn't gonna be any hitstun code that will. A lot of attacks just don't put you in any tumbling animation to begin with, or if they do they cause too much knockback to follow up anything with it. It is looking like there is no fixing Brawl in this regard.

 

[zxeon]

i have gravity on and i can stomp with gdorf just find. i dont know if you guys are talking about auto cancel or now but why does that matter with l- cancel>

If you can thunderstomp you can land with zero lag not just reduced lag.

 

[M15t3R E]

Kupo, I haven't made up my mind yet.
I'm neutral in this debate. I'd like to see a Brawl+ prototype and test it myself. I'm not sure yet if I want a separate Brawl scene to be created for Brawl+. It would be awkward, but not a terrible idea.

Someone7 echoed what I stated in a previous post. I told you that I don't know if you'll ever get it right. I felt the notion of you running this project was analogous to twisting a Rubrix Cube blindly. Brawl and Melee are just too different. It's hard to see this project coming to a satisfying conclusion. However, best of luck to you.

 

[kupo15]

ok, i was just asking cause you seemed to be anti brawl+.

Yea, i know melee and brawl are way different which is why I mainly compare brawl to 64. They are more similar. Brawl needs 64 hitstun. With the better defensive game brawl has over 64, brawl wont be as "broken" as 64.

 

[M15t3R E]

Well Kupo, you'd be the first to hack Smash Bros. 64 for the sake of Brawl.
Seeing as how the 64 game is on emulators, it's been hacked and cracked already. I can see how forgetting about Melee and focusing on 64 would be more feasible.

 

[Someone7]

I say Brawl+ is ready to go stable. L-canceling, wavedashing, and no tripping make the game more interesting. I can't really see any flaws with this.

More hitstun would be interesting. Maybe PW can work his magic, but I don't think anything really interesting will come out of it in this instance. I say we're lucky wavedashing and L-canceling work so well.

 

[kupo15]

Exactly! thats why I push the 64 examples yet everyone says, "why do you compare 64?" as if I shouldn't. Making brawl more like 64 imo is better than making brawl like melee since its so similar to 64 and thus, like you said, more feasible.

 

[M15t3R E]

Yeah, Someone7. Maybe.
L-canceling alone might create new combos the way it did in Melee. Especially in conjunction with the gravity hacks.

EDIT: Proceed on trying to hack 64 then. Don't worry what others say.

 

[kupo15]

thanks, i wish i could. I have no hacking exp
I can only help by reminding ppl why i think we should model it to 64.

 

[JacobWins]

Melee didnt have THAT much hitstun but it was enough to combo people because things moved very quickly.

Going for 64 hitstun may be a little too much but im fine with anything really

 

[M15t3R E]

Have you tried playing with both L-canceling and gravity hacks?
If so, did it feel a lot more like Melee? Also, were there any bugs?

 

[GuruKid]

Good Stuff; I'm really reminded of a ol' 64 ways of Smash when I see the video. Although this won't ever be put into the competitive scene, I bet it's fun as hell to play through. I'm sure Nintendo is PISSED to see its brainchild being messed with, haha.

 

[kupo15]

Melee didnt have THAT much hitstun but it was enough to combo people because things moved very quickly.

Going for 64 hitstun may be a little too much but im fine with anything really

I think melee worked because the moves were programmed better to combo. Not because of the stun time. Brawls moves are programme to prevent combos by pushing ppl away. Thats why 64 stun is better. And with brawls def, it will be a better 64

Good Stuff; I'm really reminded of a ol' 64 ways of Smash when I see the video. Although this won't ever be put into the competitive scene, I bet it's fun as hell to play through. I'm sure Nintendo is PISSED to see its brainchild being messed with, haha.

Thats ok, they host side tourneys to make money for brawl+

 

[AmigoOne]

How is Lucas looking like? Last I heard hitstun was implemented, Lucas's nair was broken.

 

[LeeHarris]

Hello everyone, I just thought I'd drop by to tell you all that I haven't had much of a chance to make a fix for the code yet because of me being extremely busy today, but I'll try and get on it tomorrow... I should also be able to do something about that Dash Dancing code(I did it with the Super Sonic code) but I'm reluctant to make one because there's a lot of controversy over whether it'd help the game or not...

Anyways, I've read the suggestions on how I should remake the Hitstun code and I've taken them into account - but "don't tell me how I should make my codes, fool."

You may recognize my name from GSCentral/USBGecko forums, but I'd just like to thank you again You're the man!

 

[Discolicious]

I just implemented all the hacks earlier tonight. I didn't really notice any changes with this version of hitstun and it turned of my wavedashing :S lol

 

[Midnight702]

Brawl is looking more and more like Melee

 

[JacobWins]

I should probably disable my hitstun code until a final version is released

 

[Chexr]

Dont make me rebuy a wii

 

[GimR]

Dont make me rebuy a wii

If you downloaded the new update you can just erase your Wii's internal memory to use the hacks.

 

[Makkun]

If you downloaded the new update you can just erase your Wii's internal memory to use the hacks.

The hacks are now compatible with the new update anyway. He's saying he sold his Wii.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

I don't think altering the 'dash dance' mechanics would be a good idea. From what I see it would take away from the ability to approach using back aerials. It's not difficult to get used to the current dash mechanics and use them in a similar fashion as they could be with Melee...only they have an added value with the bairs.
More options = more depth = better game.

 

[leafgreen386]

RARing would still be doable with fixed dashdancing ._.

Currently, dashdancing in brawl is useless. Fixing dashdancing would increase options (more than you think, actually, since there are more options out of a dash than in melee, such as fsmashing). It might make RARing slightly harder, but since you don't carry your momentum into the air when you jump, it would still be just as usable.

 

[Blaze924]

i think i updated my wii, so too bad for me, anyway, i got a better idea for the next vid, C.falcon vs marth (Ken combo)

 

[Revven]

i think i updated my wii, so too bad for me, anyway, i got a better idea for the next vid, C.falcon vs marth (Ken combo)

You CAN use this still you know in the new update.

Go here for the guide.

 

[Blaze924]

You CAN use this still you know in the new update.

Go here for the guide.

OMG!!!!!!! Thank You!!!!!!!!!

 

[El Sabroso]

once this code has no bugs, what's next?, moonwalkin'?, no auto climb on edge?, lol there are a lot of changes

 

[Ruse]

I can't wait to play some Melee 2.0.

 

[Dan_X]

This is the only "competitive" code I've yet to test. I'm somewhat apprehensive with this one. Is it worth fooling around with it given the known list of bugs? Is Phantom working to remove these bugs, strengthening the code?

Also, does this truly make a noticeable difference in game? Does it achieve its goal? More specifically, does it truly allow for more comboing?

 

[Starscream]

Is it possible to create a code that will disable you from air dodging until you escape the tumbling animation by your own means? Currently, you can escape the tumbling animation after the hitstun is over by airdodging. It's pretty annoying and sometimes causes me to airdodge right above the ground when I'm actually trying to tech. In Melee you could not airdodge straight out of the tumble animation even if your hitstun was over. You had to escape the tumble first by either jumping, using an aerial after the hitstun frames, or tapping the control stick. I think this is really keeping teching from being useful in Brawl.

 

[kupo15]

This is the only "competitive" code I've yet to test. I'm somewhat apprehensive with this one. Is it worth fooling around with it given the known list of bugs? Is Phantom working to remove these bugs, strengthening the code?

Also, does this truly make a noticeable difference in game? Does it achieve its goal? More specifically, does it truly allow for more comboing?

No, I would not recommend fooling around with it at its current version. PW is working on fixing the bugs though. The comboing system doesnt get any better(only with a couple moves) with this which is why we need to add additional hitstun to make it more like 64.

Is it possible to create a code that will disable you from air dodging until you escape the tumbling animation by your own means? Currently, you can escape the tumbling animation after the hitstun is over by airdodging. It's pretty annoying and sometimes causes me to airdodge right above the ground when I'm actually trying to tech. In Melee you could not airdodge straight out of the tumble animation even if your hitstun was over. You had to escape the tumble first by either jumping, using an aerial after the hitstun frames, or tapping the control stick. I think this is really keeping teching from being useful in Brawl.

that should be easy. Idk if PW got word of it though.

 

[leafgreen386]

I just posted this in the main brawl+ thread.

Anyway, I just came up with possibly the single most efficient, effective, and easiest way to get what we want with hitstun. When I said I realized the blindingly obvious earlier, that was only the tip of the iceberg. This is truly ridiculous how simple it is.

Anyway, I'm sure you're all aware that the main things that influence hitstun are the attack being used, the character the attack is used against, that character's percent, and how decayed the move being used is. Well, when hitstun was first brought up, everyone thought we could modify the hitstun of the attack being used, and that would be our fix. Well, that's not exactly easy to do, and would probably take up tremendous amounts of code. So lately we've been talking about the tumble animation, and how we might be able to use that to employ artificial hitstun.

The thing is... why settle for artificial hitstun, though, when we can get the real deal? Coupled with the anti-aerial/AD while in hitstun code, we can do that. It would be as simple as having the game treat you as if you were at some ridiculous percent whenever it does hitstun calculations. So let's say you're at 0%, and you get hit by pika's utilt. The game would treat the hitstun as if you were at 400% or something, while giving you the same knockback you would normally receive had you got hit at 0%. This solves so many problems. It would take up fairly little code, while solving the problem of different attacks having different hitstuns, as messing with the tumble animation would've left every attack in the game with basically the same hitstun. Also, since this doesn't interfere with knockback any, percent will still play a very important role in comboing. Another good thing about this code is that it would be easily modifiable, and we wouldn't need to be constantly bugging PW about it.

So yeah... Comments? Criticisms? Cries of joy? We need to reach a consensus on how we're going to solve this hitstun problem.