[Guide] The Complete Guide to Zero Suit Samus

[mountain_tiger]

Really? I was sure that it did boost stun time slightly. Never mind. On the topic of DSmash, does Stale Move Negation affect how long the charge time lasts?

Oh, and SFP, here's some things you might want to add:

- Each hit of her neutral A jab counts as a separate hit in the Stale Move Queue, which can come in very handy if your side B is stale.

- FTilt can jab lock (very situational, but occasionally useful)

- Perhaps this is just me, but I think that USmash is worth 4/5 instead of 3/5.

- As good as Uair is, you should never, ever tell people to abuse a move. Doing so only gets you punished.

- About FSmash: it kills at 140% with bad DI IIRC (unless you're close to the edge), and could you list the actual amount of damage it does (10-14%), please?

 

[noradseven]

Lol I disagree with a decent bit of the guide but its so much flashier than mine.

D-smash better than n-air I disagree, they need to both be 4s.

Also f-tilt needs to be a 2 it is extremely situational and by very situatital except for the f-tilt up which basically needs its own discussion, cause you guys were right it owns.

Grab needs to be at least 3 while you shouldn't use it much it is freaking amazing for fear

Forward B needs info on the first hit which is very important because of its good speed and it still has p. decent range.

Lol its true u-air is broke

No mention of pivot standing d-tilt I am depressed, that is the reason why I am not a big fan of f-tilt, because 80-90% of the time a d-tilt or u-tilt will suffice, except f-tilt up, which is a crazy anti air in a few matches.

 

[ohaiduhg]

Lol I disagree with a decent bit of the guide but its so much flashier than mine.

D-smash better than n-air I disagree, they need to both be 4s.

Nair is a lot harder to hit. If Nair gets 4 then Dsmash should get 5.

Grab needs to be at least 3 while you shouldn't use it much it is freaking amazing for fear

You throw around her grab for fear tactics? To think I thought I played bravely. O_o

 

[Nefarious B]

Nair is a lot harder to hit. If Nair gets 4 then Dsmash should get 5.

How can you possibly think a 20 frame startup attack is easier to land than a aerial, with almost the same range, faster startup, and more mobility?

You throw around her grab for fear tactics? To think I thought I played bravely. O_o

The grab is for fear tactics in the same way side b and dsmash are. They make people scared, and thus they play differently than they would otherwise.

 

[ph00tbag]

It only boosts damage and kb.

I'm almost positive I remember testing it frame by frame and noting a small difference, but if you say so.

 

[ohaiduhg]

How can you possibly think a 20 frame startup attack is easier to land than a aerial, with almost the same range, faster startup, and more mobility?

For a start, Nair's range does not come close to Dsmash. Unless you count both in front and behind of the nair at seperate times together. It's very unlikely to try Nairing so both side's have a chance of hitting.

Dsmash is a guaranteed combo set up as well as hitting through recovery attempts and it's a very feared move.

Nair is aeiral, so it's competition is a very ranged Fair, overpowered Bair and the Uair of death. Nair has more cooling lag than the other aerials. The use of Nair is further limited by the other aerials being her Fair, Bair and Uair... enough said about those?

Side B and Dsmash go together. Nair is the start of a very situational combo follow up or to slap quick priority out of an awkward position.

The grab is for fear tactics in the same way side b and dsmash are. They make people scared, and thus they play differently than they would otherwise.

Grab should only come out if you are absolutely 100% certain it will already hit. Such as, already get tagging someone with a stun move. 16 frame start up is quite a frame start up for a grab (maybe the longest start up?) Shield punishing would mean extreme prediction accuaracy on someone who won't do the obvious standing/rolling dodge and severely punish you.

 

[Nefarious B]

You're saying things that are obvious, yet you feel the need to bold them for some reason, like it isn't common knowledge. You also changed the point I made and address that instead of addressing what I said.

Seriously, go and read again when I talked about grab. I never, ever, said anything about when to use it, yet that's how your responded. It's for fear, in the same way that holding a suitpiece in your hand is. It's ready to punish mistakes, and thus people will change their playstyle to avoid it.

 

[ohaiduhg]

I never, ever, said anything about when to use it

The grab is for fear tactics in the same way side b and dsmash are.

You compared it to 2 moves I used heavily for spacing/zoning. The "when" would fit in where else if it is the same?

It's for fear, in the same way that holding a suitpiece in your hand is.

Do you really think it's the same fear?

They make people scared, and thus they play differently than they would otherwise.

You are telling me I should be afraid of your grab if I'm playing you and not encouraging you to try and use it so you can be punished for using it?

 

[FadedImage]

I'm almost positive I remember testing it frame by frame and noting a small difference, but if you say so.

it's probably because opponents at higher percent are stunned longer, and charging a d-smash will increase the damage, thus the stun time.


OMMGGG DarkWater PLZZZ GTFO.

I'm not trying to flame here, but surs, f-smash is bad, grab is a great threat.

I don't need to talk about f-smash, everyone in here has posted why it sucks multiple times, we all know how to use it right, (that is, never use it at all).

about grab. It's one of the longest disjointed grabs in the game. If you properly predict a landing, there isn't a single aerial in the game that can hit you out of your grab. If your opponent double jumps and doesn't have much aerial control, grab where they'll land, it's pretty much unavoidable. THAT IS SCARY. Knowing that someone could grab you from that far away without any choice, it's FEAR. Knowing that even if you shieldpush them half the stage away, they'll STILL shieldgrab you is FRIGHTENING.

Anyways, n-air and d-smash are equals imo. n-air is her only downward facing aerial, and therefore her only choice for coming down on someone, plus it combos like mad, 4stars.

 

[mountain_tiger]

it's probably because opponents at higher percent are stunned longer, and charging a d-smash will increase the damage, thus the stun time.

That would make sense.

On the topic of grabs, personally I often use them in my DSmash combos. I'll double DSmash as normal, use her grab, pummel once or twice, DThrow and try to Uair chase them.

 

[NickRiddle]

about grab. It's one of the longest disjointed grabs in the game. If you properly predict a landing, there isn't a single aerial in the game that can hit you out of your grab. If your opponent double jumps and doesn't have much aerial control, grab where they'll land, it's pretty much unavoidable. THAT IS SCARY. Knowing that someone could grab you from that far away without any choice, it's FEAR. Knowing that even if you shieldpush them half the stage away, they'll STILL shieldgrab you is FRIGHTENING.

Don't forget that it lasts a very long time at the tip. I've caught spot-dodges with it before. :3

 

[noradseven]

Nair is a lot harder to hit. If Nair gets 4 then Dsmash should get 5.



You throw around her grab for fear tactics? To think I thought I played bravely. O_o

N-air is far easier to hit than d-smash, its mainly for its good priority aka it crush's AntiAir's

I don't know about you but I get maybe 2-3 d-smash's landed in a game now a days, everyone seems to get around them, but they are still good for fear.

However the only move I hit people with more than n-air is u-air, (b-air is for shield pressure/zoning, f-air is for zoning/combos, n-air is for crazy *** priority and the final approach, I mean n-air 3 is great and its not too hard to hit if you fast fall it.

 

[sasook]

DThrow and try to Uair chase them.

I used to do that, but then I started doing usmash, since my opponents would always airdodge the uair, and usmash punishes airdodges so well. =)

The only problem is that usmash is so easy to DI, I only get a hit or 2 on them. =/

 

[noradseven]

I used to do that, but then I started doing usmash, since my opponents would always airdodge the uair, and usmash punishes airdodges so well. =)

The only problem is that usmash is so easy to DI, I only get a hit or 2 on them. =/

I did this for a while too right now I short hop u-air then fast fall u-air.

 

[Nefarious B]

Darkwater, I hate to continue this discussion, because to be honest, it's painful. But let me just explain real quick what fear actually means in the context of Smash, because you don't seem to understand.

Many moves create fear in opponents, and if these moves are used correctly, they force said opponents to change their playstyles, or potentially suffer the punishment of the move. Notice I said potential. Just because I have a huge grab doesn't mean I'm going to spam it, and obviously it would be stupid to do so with ours. What Faded explained is what I'm saying, that in this case, if you're good you will be able to grab them on their landing lag from their second jump, and they have no option around it but to DI to the ledge, giving you control anyways.

Basically, think of these "fear" moves as potential energy waiting to be released at any moment. (Because I feel like being cliche) If a piano is hanging from a bunch of ropes three floors above the sidewalk, I'm going to bet that you wouldn't walk under that piano, even if it is probably very sturdy.

Snake is infamous for doing this. He uses C4, mines, and strategic nades to force the opponent to avoid those sections of the stage, or risk and explosion. Or, think about how MKs will rarely nado against Snakes on the ground, because of their fear of a shield pulled nade exploding them. The threat is there, and it changes behavior.

 

[noradseven]

Yeah also when fighting snakes don't give a **** about their mines walk right over them and just shield or something if they decide to blow them its a slow move.

 

[NickRiddle]

Yeah also when fighting snakes don't give a **** about their mines walk right over them and just shield or something if they decide to blow them its a slow move.

Mines blow up on their own. You're thinking of C-4s. When Snakes blow them up, ZSS can pretty much always get a free grab, which is amazing vs. Snake. No point in shielding unless you cannot get there in time.

I used to do that, but then I started doing usmash, since my opponents would always airdodge the uair, and usmash punishes airdodges so well. =)

The only problem is that usmash is so easy to DI, I only get a hit or 2 on them. =/

If they airdodge, wouldn't d-smash or f-b do just as good, if not better than u-smash?

 

[Nefarious B]

Mines blow up on their own. You're thinking of C-4s. When Snakes blow them up, ZSS can pretty much always get a free grab, which is amazing vs. Snake. No point in shielding unless you cannot get there in time.

No you actually can just run onto a mine and shield dash cancel and you will shield before it blows. It has a slight delay that lets you trip it every time.

If they airdodge, wouldn't d-smash or f-b do just as good, if not better than u-smash?

This is true. This is where knowing your best option comes into play, when predicting. For anyone interested in upping their game a lot, I recommend reading this thread, and molding it to your ZSS's style of play: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234931

 

[ohaiduhg]

Basically, think of these "fear" moves as potential energy waiting to be released at any moment.

Makes better sense I guess.

about grab. It's one of the longest disjointed grabs in the game. If you properly predict a landing, there isn't a single aerial in the game that can hit you out of your grab. If your opponent double jumps and doesn't have much aerial control, grab where they'll land, it's pretty much unavoidable. THAT IS SCARY. Knowing that someone could grab you from that far away without any choice, it's FEAR. Knowing that even if you shieldpush them half the stage away, they'll STILL shieldgrab you is FRIGHTENING.

If I ever get a chance to play either of you, I'm going to have to MM my Ike vs your ZSS's.

 

[Metatitan]

I don't post here often but I do use zamus and I think side B should be rated 5. I mean it's her best spacing tool, I value it as much as I value peach's Fair.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There's a lot of weight being placed on the rating system, more than I expected by quite a bit. heh

 

[mountain_tiger]

I don't post here often but I do use zamus and I think side B should be rated 5. I mean it's her best spacing tool, I value it as much as I value peach's Fair.

It's a good move definitely, but it has a lot of start-up lag, and if it whiffs it leaves you vulnerable. 4 out of 5 is fine for that move.

 

[Metatitan]

It's a good move definitely, but it has a lot of start-up lag, and if it whiffs it leaves you vulnerable. 4 out of 5 is fine for that move.

Thats why you use it when you know you can. The vulnerability from the startup lag is generally voided by shorthopping backwards.

 

[noradseven]

Also can you get the block stun and hitstun data on these moves it p. important for ZSS.

I don't post here often but I do use zamus and I think side B should be rated 5. I mean it's her best spacing tool, I value it as much as I value peach's Fair.

No it shouldn't its right where it is, on PS, alot of characters can punish and alot of peoples dash attack beat it flat out.

Dash attacks go right under your hit box, trust me its fairly punishable, and people will just slowly push you towards the edge, its still good, but its not as amazing as we once thought.

 

[sasook]

Thats why you use it when you know you can. The vulnerability from the startup lag is generally voided by shorthopping backwards.

SHing backwards and using the whip was a major part of the game 6 months ago. We know about it. Trust us when we say, it's punishable anyway. That's why we changed.

 

[Hence]

If IC's PS Plasma Whip, even when used shorthopped and receeding, they can still get a free running grab if their reaction time is good enough. That's...awful.
The four frame lag from Popo to Nana doesn't affect Nana when the IC's are running. Powershielding gets wrecked only if Nana and Popo are standing still.

 

[PepsiMista]

When snake takes out a nade, thats a free grab.

i <3 it.

 

[ohaiduhg]

When snake takes out a nade, thats a free grab.

i <3 it.

He shouldn't be taking a grenade out that close to anyone. His Utilt could probably reach you there.

 

[Nefarious B]

He shouldn't be taking a grenade out that close to anyone. His Utilt could probably reach you there.

Utilt is long ranged, but it is def. not as long as our grab. Not even close really.

 

[prince_of_darkness]

Excellent guide, very well written.

LOL at f-tilt

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm going to update this guide on Monday. Just FYI.

 

[sasook]

It needs to be updated? O.o

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It needs to be updated? O.o

Just with some of the suggestions from this thread.

 

[noradseven]

It needs to be updated? O.o

yeah it kinda does.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This guide updated on 7/07/2009 to include the following:

Move Set Changes:

• Jabs (attack table information, tactical information)
• Down Tilt (Pivot Down Tilts)
• Up Air (tactical information)
• Back Air (tactical information)
• Forward Air (tactical information)
• Down Air (rating change only)
• Plasma Whip (tactical information)
• Forward Throw (tactical information)
• Various move ratings re-evaluated
  

Suit Pieces:

• Added information to suit piece game guide
• Added information on Dodge Cancelled Item Throws
• Added information on Z-Dropping

Recovery:

• Added some information on Directional Influence and a link to a proper, in-depth DI guide

Match-Ups

• Included a rough match-up list as a reference for new players

General

• Improved Formatting, added Change Log section
• Fixed some spelling and grammar issues

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

Great job on the guide. Explains a lot of her metagame.

 

[noradseven]

Nair needs 5 ZSS's, and f-tilt needs only 1 please update at your earliest convenience thank you.

 

[Jupz]

Nice guide, just read it

 

[★Malik★™]

so what's the best time to Down B? air and on the ground. usually, i'll do it after 2 Dsmashes, when i'm edge grabbing (gets them every time) or when i'm running towards my opponent but i'll do it from far away because i know they'll run towards me.

and

i still can't get the sliding while throwing an item move.

 

[sasook]

so what's the best time to Down B? air and on the ground. usually, i'll do it after 2 Dsmashes, when i'm edge grabbing (gets them every time) or when i'm running towards my opponent but i'll do it from far away because i know they'll run towards me.

Using flipjump onstage is almost always a pretty bad idea, to be honest. The predictable trajectory makes it hard to punish, the kick has a lot of landing lag, and there's usually a better option to do. Use it on stage to escape sticky situations because of the invincibility frames.

It's much better offstage, when you're recovering.

i still can't get the sliding while throwing an item move.

Hold a suit piece and put up your shield. Roll. In the midst of the roll, pick a direction on the C-stick. If you timed it right (it's really not tight timing at all) you just performed a glide toss.