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Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

Ussi

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I did AP Rammus jungle

got fed and they surrendered at 23 minutes when I had a SoSW, Dcap, and void. powerball was going 700 damage and my ult did tons of damage that I got a triple kill with it. Only reason I even tried it was cause I was doing so much AP Rammus in accession haha.
 

Dre89

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Come on Dre, are you being for real? What advantage would zilean get in a utility mage meta? How would it make sense at all for him to be popular then instead of other utility mages?

But what archtype is completely dependent on being able to pop a member of the opposing team, and becomes useless if they can't? Yep, assasins and burstmages, and who has the strongest "anti-pop" in the game? Zilean. This is especially true when the adcs are hypercarries, so if you used your head about it you'd realize, THIS IS LITERALLY THE BEST POSSIBLE META FOR ZILEAN.

Similarly kha and rengar have come into meta because of repeated lee sin, elise nerfs, and evelyn nerfs, similarly the AD casters fell out of play for jungle because lee and elise suffocated them and evelyn was much better out pulling out early ganks because wards don't work on her. Why'd rengar and kha come through as such strong picks when all but lee left the scene and lee was very dimished? Welp, the overall game shifted DRASTICALLY, the era of the hypercarry was upon us, and both rengar and kha were very good at assassination, while kha also provides poke.

As for season 3, 2 words "gold flow", the change in wraith positioning and the addition of wright, along with the lower spawn timers for jungle camps were a giant gamechanger for junglers because it meant that laners were no longer stealing half of their gold income reliably. This made bruisers a great deal stronger in the jungle even if they didn't hardcore snowball. This enhanced an already strong lee sin and made elise and eve really powerful. Over the course of the season people learned to invade better and tank junglers gradually fell off due to being too much of a liability.


See, here's the thing, it's not that champions don't go unnoticed and get discovered later, it's that those champs get discovered in metas which are strong for them, ex things that counter them get nerfed, the game encourages multithreat teams and they're a threat, the game encourages single threats and they're good at buffing or peeling for a single threat, unless they counter the existing meta in such a strong way as to warp the game around creating a new meta.


Point is, it makes no sense to say you knew a champion was that strong months ago unless you're arguing that he was this strong in every meta, both that he did well enough against the existing meta picks to justify presence in lane and that they provided enough strength (either of the types the meta advantages or enough simple raw power that they can be thrown into a team) to justify placement.

Top lane was a very different place months ago with very different picks, to argue that he was strong then because he's strong now is pure fallacy.

Not to mention the reason that jax worked in the meta is that none of them were actual counterpicks, the entire point of why he was discovered was that people realized that his counters were only counters early, and they generally didn't bully him enough to prevent him from scaling up, especially given that to bully him you need to be aggro and he has great gank support.


So ya, TL;DR: Powerful now doesn't mean he was always powerful and none of those cases suggest that characters are just powerful in the aether. Yes characters have to be discovered but they still need to be good in or against the meta.

edit:



Tank junglers are plenty viable below, diamond I'd guess. The entire problem is they have pretty static paths, are slow early in the jungle, and get destroyed in duels.

Also, you're playing against a tank jungler, what exactly is rammus' plan for living in your jungle, roll around you threateningly?

Zilean makes sense in the utility mage period because he's a utility mage. In a period where speed steroids were really popular, and AP lane bully with an enormous speed steroid and a revive makes sense. The lack of assassins meant that vulnerable hypercarries like Jinx and Kog were popular, so he aids them too.

Lee and Elise can still 1v1 any other jungler early game except for stuff like Udyr. There's never been a point where this hasn't been the case. You didn't explain why AD casters like Wu and Panth were popular then fell off. You tried to justify Kha and Rengar by saying Elise and Lee got nerfed, but Lee and Elise weren't nerfed when stuff like Wu and Panth were getting used.
Or maybe you could explain what made Jax so popular in the meta for a certain period, or what has changed to make Rumble popular now.

Also ytf do people say that tank junglers aren't viable in Diamond when champs like Amumu are sitting on like a 55% winrate. If you type a tank jungler into Youtube all the videos that pop up are pro junglers stomping with tanks in high Diamond/Challenger.

It's hilarious that people think that Diamond is some magic place where only certain stuff is viable, when in reality tons of 'unviable' champs like Fiora have good winrates.
 

adumbrodeus

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Zilean makes sense in the utility mage period because he's a utility mage. In a period where speed steroids were really popular, and AP lane bully with an enormous speed steroid and a revive makes sense. The lack of assassins meant that vulnerable hypercarries like Jinx and Kog were popular, so he aids them too.

Lee and Elise can still 1v1 any other jungler early game except for stuff like Udyr. There's never been a point where this hasn't been the case. You didn't explain why AD casters like Wu and Panth were popular then fell off. You tried to justify Kha and Rengar by saying Elise and Lee got nerfed, but Lee and Elise weren't nerfed when stuff like Wu and Panth were getting used.
Or maybe you could explain what made Jax so popular in the meta for a certain period, or what has changed to make Rumble popular now.

Also ytf do people say that tank junglers aren't viable in Diamond when champs like Amumu are sitting on like a 55% winrate. If you type a tank jungler into Youtube all the videos that pop up are pro junglers stomping with tanks in high Diamond/Challenger.

It's hilarious that people think that Diamond is some magic place where only certain stuff is viable, when in reality tons of 'unviable' champs like Fiora have good winrates.
An entire post talking about how I can't explain **** when I explicitly explained that **** in my post, are you for real?

My thesis has been that champs can get discovered but only in metas good for them, so saying "I knew he was good months ago is meaningless unless that champ has been good in every meta to date", so where's your illustration that rumble has been good in all these metas?

Zilean makes sense in the utility mage period because he's a utility mage. In a period where speed steroids were really popular, and AP lane bully with an enormous speed steroid and a revive makes sense. The lack of assassins meant that vulnerable hypercarries like Jinx and Kog were popular, so he aids them too.
No utility metas concurrent with hypercarries being insanely strong until now. Prior meta was mages with gigantic ranged poking and clearing. If he's not with REALLY strong hypercarries he gets outclassed by other utility mages, like lulu.

Also ytf do people say that tank junglers aren't viable in Diamond when champs like Amumu are sitting on like a 55% winrate. If you type a tank jungler into Youtube all the videos that pop up are pro junglers stomping with tanks in high Diamond/Challenger.
He maintains that because diamond/challenger are a tiny percentage of games, and yes of course they'll all be vids of them doing amazingly, you know that's what highlight reels do.

It's hilarious that people think that Diamond is some magic place where only certain stuff is viable, when in reality tons of 'unviable' champs like Fiora have good winrates.
it's not magical, it's just people get better mechanics and gamesense over the course of the game, and diamond's a convenient line because by then most junglers know how to counterjungle effectively.

Ummm, she's unviable? She's a great solo queue pick.
 

Z'zgashi

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Oh my god, both of you just stop.

Here's a tl;dr on both of your ****ty points:

Zilean and anything related to him
People originally assumed he was garbage since he's always been thought to be garbage, then one day somebody played him and realized he wasnt garbage, other people started noticing as well, and since it just so happens Zilean is literally anti Assassin and synergies well with hyper carries, boom, now he's played again. Yippee.

Tank Junglers and why you dont see them
Basically, late game hypercarries are the thing right now, and you know what those hypercarries lack? A good early game. You know what the best way to fix said problem is? An aggressive jungler to apply pressure on the map and/or help their lane. Does this make tank junglers bad? Nope. Does this make aggresive/duelist style junglers more appealing? Yep. Do pro level players attempt to pick up less appealing characters in the current meta for competitive play? No, hence why tank junglers are good, but yet not played much. Add in the fact that you can put your tanky/peeling champ in the Top lane anyway, and there's just no need atm. Not bad, just no reason as Tanky Junglers dont give any significant enough benefits for pro players to pick them up. Could some pros pick them up and play them with success? Yeah, cuz they're just fine strength wise. Will they? Probably not anytime soon since a dominant early game works so well in the current meta.

If I missed any argumentative points, then **** you I dont care, stop spamming this thread with garbage.
 
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Dre89

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An entire post talking about how I can't explain **** when I explicitly explained that **** in my post, are you for real?

My thesis has been that champs can get discovered but only in metas good for them, so saying "I knew he was good months ago is meaningless unless that champ has been good in every meta to date", so where's your illustration that rumble has been good in all these metas?



No utility metas concurrent with hypercarries being insanely strong until now. Prior meta was mages with gigantic ranged poking and clearing. If he's not with REALLY strong hypercarries he gets outclassed by other utility mages, like lulu.



He maintains that because diamond/challenger are a tiny percentage of games, and yes of course they'll all be vids of them doing amazingly, you know that's what highlight reels do.



it's not magical, it's just people get better mechanics and gamesense over the course of the game, and diamond's a convenient line because by then most junglers know how to counterjungle effectively.

Ummm, she's unviable? She's a great solo queue pick.
Rumble has always been a good top lane pick because he's anti-melee. He beats pretty much every melee top laner in the game in some form. At levels 4-5 no melee in the game except maybe Darius can trade with him if he manages his heat correctly. He then proceeds to be a major threat in the objective game as his ult is amazing for dragon/baron fights and fights in the jungle. He also scales pretty well if you forgo a tanky item like rylais for a deathcap as he has 2 150% AP ratios ontop of good bases and a ton of magic penetration. He's capable of building mostly glass cannon and mainting significant DPS if you know how to play him correctly. He also does comparatively well in lane swaps. He can snipe a few CS with his E, he's not too dependent on items to be relevant early-mid game because of his bases, and come level 6 he can just ult a wave for the CS (rank 1 ult will oneshot and entire wave except for a cannon).

Pretty much the only time he wouldn't have been a good pick was when ranged AP tops like Lulu and Kayle were popular. Even then he'd still be a good pick if you lane swapped and put him in the 1v2. Point is until now he hasn't been a priority pick since last season, and got picked once or twice by Balls this season (who is like 9-0 or 10-0 on Rumble). He was basically absent during the dive-tank meta of Renekton-Shyv-Mundo-Trundle, which would have been perfect for him.

And are you seriously trying to argue that a high win-rate in Diamond is not proof that a champion is viable in Diamond? If a high win-rate isn't proof then what is? Saying that Diamond is a small portion of the playerbase doesn't matter is ridiculous because Diamond is literally the only portion of the playerbase that matters when you say 'tank junglers aren't viable in Diamond'. If tanks had a low win-rate, you'd use that as proof of your argument, but when they have high win-rates all of a sudden win-rates don't count for anything. And no one said anything about highlight reels, I was talking about soloque games. There are countless videos of people stomping soloque in high level play with tank junglers.
 
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Espy Rose

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Oh my god, both of you just stop.

Here's a tl;dr on both of your ****ty points:

Zilean and anything related to him
People originally assumed he was garbage since he's always been thought to be garbage, then one day somebody played him and realized he wasnt garbage, other people started noticing as well, and since it just so happens Zilean is literally anti Assassin and synergies well with hyper carries, boom, now he's played again. Yippee.

Tank Junglers and why you dont see them
Basically, late game hypercarries are the thing right now, and you know what those hypercarries lack? A good early game. You know what the best way to fix said problem is? An aggressive jungler to apply pressure on the map and/or help their lane. Does this make tank junglers bad? Nope. Does this make aggresive/duelist style junglers more appealing? Yep. Do pro level players attempt to pick up less appealing characters in the current meta for competitive play? No, hence why tank junglers are good, but yet not played much. Add in the fact that you can put your tanky/peeling champ in the Top lane anyway, and there's just no need atm. Not bad, just no reason as Tanky Junglers dont give any significant enough benefits for pro players to pick them up. Could some pros pick them up and play them with success? Yeah, cuz they're just fine strength wise. Will they? Probably not anytime soon since a dominant early game works so well in the current meta.

If I missed any argumentative points, then **** you I dont care, stop spamming this thread with garbage.
Quoted for repetition. :applejack:
 

Dre89

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Why are people telling other people to stop talking about League of Legends in a League of Legends thread....
 

Z'zgashi

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Because your 'talking' does nothing but piss people off. These lengthy debates literally make 80% of the people in this thread just say 'nope' and close their browser. If you want to ***** about nonsense thats been explained ten quadrillion times, either take it to pms, or take it elsewhere, nobody wants it here.

**** everything, im tired as ****, im going to sleep.
 
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Sinister Slush

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Zil passive also helps bot lane get level 2 faster and possibly win them the lane if they play it right. Though the resurgence of Janna kinda counters Zilean early on for her humongous shield, so you'll prolly either see janna picked into Zilean if Lustboy chooses it (since he's playing it a bit in solo queue with turtle) or just even people this week in group c/d playing him quite a bit since the only supports that exist right now is Nami Janna and the occasional Thresh or Braum.

Only other support that was chosen was Morgana Leona and a Kayle oddly enough during any of SK's games.
 

Dre89

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Because your 'talking' does nothing but piss people off. These lengthy debates literally make 80% of the people in this thread just say 'nope' and close their browser. If you want to ***** about nonsense thats been explained ten quadrillion times, either take it to pms, or take it elsewhere, nobody wants it here.

**** everything, im tired as ****, im going to sleep.
Honestly I find most of what you say toxic and complete garbage but I don't tell you to stop talking about it because I realise the world doesn't revolve around what specific topics I like. You annoy people too with your toxicity, it's just that most of those people are too nice/civilized to to react the way that you react when you read something you don't like.

It's a Lol thread. As long as people are talking about Lol they can talk about whatever they want. The thread doesn't revolve around what you specifically prefer.
 
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Shaya

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Eh, Dre, the monotony of some of the things that get regurgitated around here definitely hurt, offhand "toxic" remarks don't necessarily derail a thread as hard as some of the things you post do.

Anyway on a lighter note, did my first placement match on my smurf. That feel when you say at 5:30 "Okay team, at this pace let's group up mid at 15 minutes and push to win". Never lied in my life, obv

I guess playing Malzahar at low elo is cheating a little :<
 
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Dre89

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Eh, Dre, the monotony of some of the things that get regurgitated around here definitely hurt, offhand "toxic" remarks don't necessarily derail a thread as hard as some of the things you post do.

Anyway on a lighter note, did my first placement match on my smurf. That feel when you say at 5:30 "Okay team, at this pace let's group up mid at 15 minutes and push to win". Never lied in my life, obv

I guess playing Malzahar at low elo is cheating a little :<
When was the last time that I said that most FOTM champs get picked because one or two people stomped with them? I don't think I've ever said that before so I don't understand how it could be repetitive? Has someone else brought that up before?
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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Just get a hint and drop it already.

Also Malz is like the most unfun champion in the game. I was watching SDO's stream the other day and it was mid Morg vs mid Malz I swear I fell asleep.
 

Dre89

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So it's ok for P3 to constantly talk about Rengar or Shaya to repeatedly bring up Malz, but when I bring up a topic I have literally never mentioned before I'm guilty of monotony?
 
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adumbrodeus

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Rumble has always been a good top lane pick because he's anti-melee. He beats pretty much every melee top laner in the game in some form. At levels 4-5 no melee in the game except maybe Darius can trade with him if he manages his heat correctly. He then proceeds to be a major threat in the objective game as his ult is amazing for dragon/baron fights and fights in the jungle. He also scales pretty well if you forgo a tanky item like rylais for a deathcap as he has 2 150% AP ratios ontop of good bases and a ton of magic penetration. He's capable of building mostly glass cannon and mainting significant DPS if you know how to play him correctly. He also does comparatively well in lane swaps. He can snipe a few CS with his E, he's not too dependent on items to be relevant early-mid game because of his bases, and come level 6 he can just ult a wave for the CS (rank 1 ult will oneshot and entire wave except for a cannon).

Pretty much the only time he wouldn't have been a good pick was when ranged AP tops like Lulu and Kayle were popular. Even then he'd still be a good pick if you lane swapped and put him in the 1v2. Point is until now he hasn't been a priority pick since last season, and got picked once or twice by Balls this season (who is like 9-0 or 10-0 on Rumble). He was basically absent during the dive-tank meta of Renekton-Shyv-Mundo-Trundle, which would have been perfect for him.
So, when Lulu is popular he shouldn't be good and Lulu's been popular for quite some time up until now. Answered your own question man.

And are you seriously trying to argue that a high win-rate in Diamond is not proof that a champion is viable in Diamond? If a high win-rate isn't proof then what is? Saying that Diamond is a small portion of the playerbase doesn't matter is ridiculous because Diamond is literally the only portion of the playerbase that matters when you say 'tank junglers aren't viable in Diamond'. If tanks had a low win-rate, you'd use that as proof of your argument, but when they have high win-rates all of a sudden win-rates don't count for anything. And no one said anything about highlight reels, I was talking about soloque games. There are countless videos of people stomping soloque in high level play with tank junglers.
Your reading skills are atrocious, I was saying that he doesn't have a high win rate in diamond which isn't reflected in his general winrate because it's a tiny percentage of the games overall.

So it's ok for P3 to constantly talk about Rengar or Shaya to repeatedly bring up Malz, but when I bring up a topic I have literally never mentioned before I'm guilty of monotony?
Cause you write walls of text and have poor reading comprehension when others respond to your walls of text.

To be fair I can write walls of text too :p
 
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Sinister Slush

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In other news, doesn't matter if you win multiple games in a row, because of master tier you lose double the points you gain and all your hard work is thrown out the window.

Two of my losses has been a DC at level 1 and then somebody drophacking the game and no loss prevented.
ugg
 

john!

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In other news, doesn't matter if you win multiple games in a row, because of master tier you lose double the points you gain and all your hard work is thrown out the window.

Two of my losses has been a DC at level 1 and then somebody drophacking the game and no loss prevented.
ugg
i thought master tier was designed to prevent clamping? and wouldn't the same thing happen at the top of old d1?
 

Sinister Slush

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The opposite, master tier addition messed with everyones MMR, so yes they gain more points thus not clamping, but people are prone to lose more than win for some reason.
I'm fairly certain not many people were gaining 17-41 points in D1 before the change.

I was gaining 3-7 points a win/loss and was sitting at 27 before losing a single game after mater was added got rid of all 27 points in one fell swoop and then demoted me next loss. I honestly would've preferred gaining and losing very little points instead of huge amounts for both wins and losses.
 

Player-3

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So it's ok for P3 to constantly talk about Rengar or Shaya to repeatedly bring up Malz, but when I bring up a topic I have literally never mentioned before I'm guilty of monotony?
the amount i've talked about rengar in total is about the same as in a SINGLE one of those those giant text dumpsters that i don't read anymore
 
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adumbrodeus

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Dre's not a troll, he's just incredibly stubborn and lacks prospective. He's a creationist, if that doesn't give you insight into his thought process I don't know what will.
 

ShroudedOne

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Malzahar is actually the least interesting mid to play against...but he's fun to play (and consistently strong, I think).
 
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Dre89

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The opposite, master tier addition messed with everyones MMR, so yes they gain more points thus not clamping, but people are prone to lose more than win for some reason.
I'm fairly certain not many people were gaining 17-41 points in D1 before the change.

I was gaining 3-7 points a win/loss and was sitting at 27 before losing a single game after mater was added got rid of all 27 points in one fell swoop and then demoted me next loss. I honestly would've preferred gaining and losing very little points instead of huge amounts for both wins and losses.
Did Master Tier affect lower elos in any way? Because right after Master Tier came out I got 26 LP for a win in Silver, which is the highest I've ever had (I normally fluctuate between 14-21).

Dre's not a troll, he's just incredibly stubborn and lacks prospective. He's a creationist, if that doesn't give you insight into his thought process I don't know what will.
I'm not a creationist anymore, and that's not relevant anyway lol. You should know better to resort to ad hominems. If you're going to insult me directly, at least explain to me why AD casters like Wu and Panth rose then fell off, and why Rumble wasn't picked in the months prior to Lulu and Kayle top becoming popular.
 
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Shaya

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Malzahar is actually the least interesting mid to play against...but he's fun to play (and consistently strong, I think).
The character denies the opponent's ability to do anything, yeah toxic gameplay patterns are definitely not fun for the opponent, haha.
Still, he isn't Ziggs. Who gets it all bar hard cc, but with moar range an escape and a global.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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Dre's not a troll, he's just incredibly stubborn and lacks prospective. He's a creationist, if that doesn't give you insight into his thought process I don't know what will.
i thought he was an atheist actually

huh

anyway can't wait to play new sorka

especially in arams, my build will be 5 health potions and 5 rejuv beads
 

adumbrodeus

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I'm not a creationist anymore, and that's not relevant anyway lol. You should know better to resort to ad hominems. If you're going to insult me directly, at least explain to me why AD casters like Wu and Panth rose then fell off, and why Rumble wasn't picked in the months prior to Lulu and Kayle top becoming popular.
Commenting on personal attributes is perfectly acceptable when it's the topic at hand, you weren't getting disagreed with, you were the subject of the tangent. Anyway I was defending you, well I guess. Do you prefer to be a troll or somebody whose incredibly stubborn to the point of aggravation? Anyway, good to know you're not a creationist anymore!

I did explain AD casters.... like 3 posts ago and said I did. The rise of hypercarries made people want assassin junglers after nerfs made lee and elise not as stifling.

I can only think of one period this season where lulu, kennen, and kayle were all unpopular and that was tank meta when jax got discovered first and beat rumble for the exact same reason he beat everyone else.



Edit: So LMQ, not 6th best in china now are you? Yes I know it's a totally different roster, still from the way the chinese league community talks about them and the NA scene by extension, you'd think they were.
 
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jaswa

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why Rumble wasn't picked in the months prior to Lulu and Kayle top becoming popular.
Not sure if this has been responded to yet? Thought it was relevant since SSB beat OMG with Rumble vs. Kayle, C9 beat ALL with Rumble vs. Kayle and LMQ beat FNC with Rumble vs. Lulu today. Your point seems legitimate, he's winning at the highest level of play vs. ranged opponents even though he's meant to be best against melee. Don't know why everyone is raging so hard at you lol :p
 

Sinister Slush

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I think Dre is just lagging 3 months behind since kayle top hasn't been a thing for that long now since it shifted from that lulu kayle to Gragas lulu, and now maokai Ryze with a side of Rumble or Lulu. Any team that has chosen kayle top has lost or was Samsung White.
 
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