Got a question! Sheik Q&A & FAQ

[#HBC | Scary]

Ok, I think it's time we revisit some of innocentroads findings.
http://www.youtube.com/user/innocentroads?blend=2&ob=1

A lot of his stuff, though impractical, can really sway some MUs (Namely the Diddy one) in our favor. That and I was dinking around with a lvl 9 Diddy and I have two questions.

Do we have a JC Banana throw like Link?
Can we consistently Air release Diddy?

The think the air release on Diddy is guaranteed. I really do.

Also, Vanish seems like it at least has 32 directions and the input is like Zelda's but you cannot manipulate it as hard as Zelda's at all, so I think it's a little more tricky.

 

[clowsui]

@Scary Air release v Diddy not guaranteed :/

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Aaaahhhh!!!! I hate it when lvl9 computers get me excited for naught. Lame!!!!!!!!

 

[<π]

I have a way harder time getting directions with zelda's upB than with sheik's

Diddy sheik is pretty even IMO just need too keep him away from banana's cuz you **** him in the air and on the ground without them. his recovery is bad too.

 

[Judo777]

Ok, I think it's time we revisit some of innocentroads findings.
http://www.youtube.com/user/innocentroads?blend=2&ob=1

A lot of his stuff, though impractical, can really sway some MUs (Namely the Diddy one) in our favor. That and I was dinking around with a lvl 9 Diddy and I have two questions.

Do we have a JC Banana throw like Link?
Can we consistently Air release Diddy?

The think the air release on Diddy is guaranteed. I really do.

Also, Vanish seems like it at least has 32 directions and the input is like Zelda's but you cannot manipulate it as hard as Zelda's at all, so I think it's a little more tricky.

Hahaha scary im already way ahead of you here. I can answer all of those questions because i have been learning diddy a little more recently and i posted this on the boards a while back.

Yes sheik does have a JC banana toss however its not as good as links but it does allow for a few things. If we JCT an item up or down we get a tin y little slide (enough to dsmash diddy on the other side of him if we want. If u JCT fwd or backward we dont move any distance however JCT does stop our dash immediately with a normal item toss animation so we can JCT fwd then DACUS out of a dash.

No air release is not guarenteed on diddy kong but people air release all the time anyway and u can mix up pummeling a whole lot and then not throwing to try and get people to air release which we do get a tipper DACUS on. Trust me you play a diddy kong and grab him once in kill percents then pummel him 5 times they will probably try and break out the next time and accidentally air release.

I know for a fact that sheiks is at least 32 it might be 40 but im not sure.

 

[-Mars-]

I get the Diddy release all the time because a lot of players don't think about things like jump releases. Just don't tell any Diddy players about it and you will likely get it more often than not. SHeiks throws don't do much damage anyways so I have no problem just pummeling.

 

[-Cross-]

I don`t really see a lot of people use Air needles, but I think it has some pretty nice uses. Such as edge guarding, countering some aerial approaches0 and hitting fools that think they can dodge needle storms *cough*kirby*cough* Am I just being a fool or do I have the right idea here?

 

[<π]

full hop needle is really good. it does all the above laglessly and relatively safely. on a lot of characters it will poke sheild better too.

I've used aerial needles to fill in gaps in off stage air combos too needles can only be dodged so using them to link into fair and stuff is garunteed and really safe. If you missed they prob can't punish you for it. fair ->double jump->needle->fair->recover too attractive.

@ sheiks recovery its 32 or 64 I think it 64 It feels like I have the most options with her. I play all the directional upB char except pika and lucario and I always feel like I have more percision with sheik than fox zelda or wolf

 

[Judo777]

full hop needle is really good. it does all the above laglessly and relatively safely. on a lot of characters it will poke sheild better too.

I've used aerial needles to fill in gaps in off stage air combos too needles can only be dodged so using them to link into fair and stuff is garunteed and really safe. If you missed they prob can't punish you for it. fair ->double jump->needle->fair->recover too attractive.

@ sheiks recovery its 32 or 64 I think it 64 It feels like I have the most options with her. I play all the directional upB char except pika and lucario and I always feel like I have more percision with sheik than fox zelda or wolf

I'm fairly certain which ever it is its the same for zelda cause zelda has at least 32 also. Im not sure 64 makes sense but i want someone to be sure idk how to test tho.

 

[<π]

4 cardinals
8 is the cardnals and diagonal
16 is in-between those.
32 between and including each of those 16
64 see above.

just from my own personal experince I feel like there are more than 32 64 is the next logical step

 

[riocosta123]

Quick Diddy question:

Is trip (banana) to DACUS guaranteed? I remember doing it a couple of times but it was against someone who wasn't very good.

I would test this myself but my wii blew up like 3 months ago,

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I'd imagine if your quick enough, it should be.

 

[Judo777]

Quick Diddy question:

Is trip (banana) to DACUS guaranteed? I remember doing it a couple of times but it was against someone who wasn't very good.

I would test this myself but my wii blew up like 3 months ago,

Yea it is.

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnSweQB1SI

I could be wrong but shieks Ftilts should be SDIable so in the current metagame shiek probably shouldn't be able to tilt lock fox into oblivion quite like she used to. That being said there's almost no shieks at tournaments compared to other characters

I forget how this works, but I guess the question I'm asking is: What exactly prevents fox & ***** Co. from getting out? I assume it's the fact that fox's physics counteract ability to SDI upwards until later percents, and the other reason I'd think is hitlag as that usually is what affects one's capability to DI a given move, which would help explain why DI towards is difficult. Sounds like a dumb question, but trying to see what exactly this is founded on. Basically, is there a thread that shows hitlag/hitstun for sheik's ftilt? I looked around and couldn't find it.

 

[Sinji]

How do I fight falco with sheik? any advice.

 

[<π]

duck mostly. try and dash in when he short hops be aware of getting into his jab range, if you are there and he is on the ground you are too close. and also be aware of phantasm you can kinda punish out of sheild with Dattack if he lands really close to you.

ftilt lock him up to death if he doesn't DI. if he does up to 80, utilt then get ready for the next error and ftilit usmash. if he is ever going to land on top of you while shooting lazers you can dtilt and get him in the air for follow ups.

be careful punishing land lag because of his reflector to.

don't DI down throw down once you get to usmash kill percents. DI a an angle away so he has to follow ups or traps on you.

 

[riocosta123]

If you have full charged needles Falco should never be allowed to come back to the stage without getting hit a million times. Sheik was practically made to edge guard Falco.

Once he gets to your horizontal level let loose with the needles. This will force him to go down and use his **** up b or they'll hit him/push him back forcing him to use his very predictable over b. Once he knows you can gimp him from these heights he basically has to recover high with over B which allows you to smack him around.

If he's too close to the stage and you can't edgeguard just stand with full charge needles a decent length away from the edge and just wait for him to pop up. He literally can not do a god **** thing.

 

[Sinji]

Ill try it.

 

[Zatchiel]

Does anyone know the extent of how bad Shiek's needles can be SDI'd? I find it easy, but what is the limit of how far they can be SDI'd?

 

[-Cross-]

That`s a pretty vague question you have there. From my knowledge the more needles thrown the farther the opponent can go with SDI, because more needles = more hitboxes to SDI. From the few times that I have SDI`d/others have SDI`d the needles I have seen people go from long range to mid/edge of close range after SDI`ing needle hits toward sheik (needles were fully charged). I don`t see people do it much anymore, might be because they just don`t know/are lazy but I don`t think it is frame disadvantage if somebody decided that when they got hit by needles they would DI right in front of sheik. I really wouldn`t mind the trade, damage+potentially advantageous position?

The only other thing that would happen is that people would reduce the damage of sheik`s needles which is unfortunate but from a full needle storm, usually people who get hit by the first one and SDI up to avoid other needles, will get hit by the last couple of needles. But that`s just because they don`t jump quickly enough/air dodge back down. I guess the effect that SDI would have is that needles will still serve their purpose but you just won`t get as good of a reward aka damage.

 

[phi1ny3]

I saw a video of Seibrik playing a sheik and he SDI'd the full needles to get close enough to dash grab the sheik, I thought it was sad, but brilliant.

 

[<π]

very very far.

 

[phi1ny3]

What percent are you supposed to usmash fox out of ftilt lock again?

 

[riocosta123]

Fox's weight is pretty close to Meta's so I imagine anything at or above 90% would suffice.

 

[-Cross-]

Fox is a little heavier then MK imo, also he falls faster, altough he doesn`t have as good of a momentum cancel like MK`s uair it shouldnt matter in terms of vertical survivability so I would usmash at around 100

 

[<π]

100+ on fox I go further up to like 110-120 incase he DI's into the second hit box.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Where do you believe Sheik belongs on the tier list?

 

[riocosta123]

I think where she is at is pretty appropriate.

I think she's better than Wolf, but the low 20s seems about right. Plus, it's not like there's a body of tournament evidence to suggest that she's anything more than average/below average.

 

[<π]

Top ten. No one is proving it though.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Somewhere in the top 15. We really are better than we think. We just have to make sure we don't try to press when we don't have to.

 

[riocosta123]

How many characters above her do you think she has an actual advantage on?

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Seems about right. I think the same of Pit, but we lack tournament representation and high placements.

 

[<π]

she goes even with most of the cast she loses slightly to, MK, IC, Pika (unless you go zelda), everyone else is pretty even or gets beat soundly I think....... snake and D3 and DK can be harder just because of weight.

If you put effort in and learn your match ups sheik can control the pass and that gives her the versatility to allows her to do well in most of her match ups.

 

[phi1ny3]

So with this whole "SDI Sheik usmash to survive", can fox/wolf still be tilt locked to a higher percent so that they die regardless of this SDI? Or does this apply to them as it does Falco?

 

[<π]

yesish? like they can but they (fox and falco) still normally die. wolf is a beast and lives till forever so you won't kill him with side usmash for a whiles normally...

 

[Wavebuster]

I saw a video of Seibrik playing a sheik and he SDI'd the full needles to get close enough to dash grab the sheik, I thought it was sad, but brilliant.

This is not because of manual SDI of the needles... they have just about no hitlag with which to SDI.

Needle hitboxes in fact have reversible knockback, which explains the occasion of a needles hit making an opponent face the opposite way you threw it from. Since needles move so quickly in the air, faster than what 60 fps allows for smooth frame-by-frame travel, it's possible that needles that are 1 frame from landing on a particular frame, will wind up with their hitbox behind the character on the next frame, causing them to knock them towards Sheik instead of away. This is especially common against skinnier targets.

In other words, the majority of this phenomenon is a fluke.

Also, why aren't people ftilt-comboing every single character in the game to death, with the eventual ftilt-Usmash KO?

 

[Judo777]

This is not because of manual SDI of the needles... they have just about no hitlag with which to SDI.

Needle hitboxes in fact have reversible knockback, which explains the occasion of a needles hit making an opponent face the opposite way you threw it from. Since needles move so quickly in the air, faster than what 60 fps allows for smooth frame-by-frame travel, it's possible that needles that are 1 frame from landing on a particular frame, will wind up with their hitbox behind the character on the next frame, causing them to knock them towards Sheik instead of away. This is especially common against skinnier targets.

In other words, the majority of this phenomenon is a fluke.

Also, why aren't people ftilt-comboing every single character in the game to death, with the eventual ftilt-Usmash KO?

Mostly cause people with good SDI and DI escape in about 3 or 4 hits.

 

[Wavebuster]

Mostly cause people with good SDI and DI escape in about 3 or 4 hits.

You can't DI ftilts that are decayed so they don't cause tumble. Even if they do SDI, it's not very effective because the ftilt has lower SDI capacity and hitlag modifier for a move that already has minimal damage/hitlag. They're not escaping it by moving away from Sheik because the foot of ftilt sends inward, and if they go behind you she can turn around and still hit them with more tilts.

You don't need to lock them to death with ftilt for ftilt to be highly effective. 2+ ftilts depending on target, then utilt, nair, uair, fair depending on where they are after the ftilts knock them up. Repeat until you can Usmash KO.

 

[<π]

its is very weight and fall speed dependant, above certain percentages you can also air dodge out before the usmash hits killing the combo... You can DI out of ftilt usmash at well.

ftilt usmash is hard to get consistently you pretty much have to fish around for it at certain percents and that inherently limits your other options you don't want to hit them with other safer attacks like your zoning tools because it adds damage and helps to undecay your tilts, this is true even with needles. you are just sitting around waiting for ftilt opportunities and against most of the cast that is bad.

I suggest only using utilt and uair and usmash out of ftilts... the occasional fair if it will true combo into needles, a grab or another ftilt.

 

[Judo777]

its is very weight and fall speed dependant, above certain percentages you can also air dodge out before the usmash hits killing the combo... You can DI out of ftilt usmash at well.

ftilt usmash is hard to get consistently you pretty much have to fish around for it at certain percents and that inherently limits your other options you don't want to hit them with other safer attacks like your zoning tools because it adds damage and helps to undecay your tilts, this is true even with needles. you are just sitting around waiting for ftilt opportunities and against most of the cast that is bad.

I suggest only using utilt and uair and usmash out of ftilts... the occasional fair if it will true combo into needles, a grab or another ftilt.

Yea this. When u walk around trying to ftilt all day people catch on and every time u dont ftilt u are altering ur decay which can be a problem.