Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[DrifloonEmpire]

Didn't Nintendo end up nuking a bunch of other music, too?

 

[Nicnac]

Spoiler: 3P1C H4X0RZ

w3'3r n0w 0n t3h 1337 p4g3 g3n0br05 loollolol!!!!!11111111

XD XD XD LOLOLOL SO 1337 BROSKI

7h15 p4g3 5ur3 15 l337, br05k15.

[-] @ ¶ ¶ √ 1337 ¶ @ & 3!

wowie, Geno really is a boomer pick, huh?

Spoiler: response to fun vampire

I'm just thinking they probably want Banjo to get release before showing off another character, and Banjo ain't releasing until after September 23rd (first day of the fall). Can me a joy killer, but Smash Bros can barely keep a secret now. Many newcomers were leaked, Hero was datamine because they didn't learn their lesson from the first time with Ryu, Banjo leaked because because people got to view their E3 coverage, they're batting a thousand with their super secret reveals.

Everything in the August 8th direct apart from Simon was a surprise afaik. Richter (which is impressive when you'd think he'd be paired with Simon), Dark Samus and Chrom, and crucially, King K. Rool. As well as that, Joker came in like a bolt from the blue and literally nobody saw him coming . Pair this with the fact that we likely don't have many big events left in the FP era to display new fighters, and the September Direct, going off of insider assumptions, is probably going to have a reveal in it. The hitch is that nobody's quite sure who it is, so FP4 may indeed be another surprise reveal.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Guys, Geno is TOTALLY worth a Fighter's Pass slot. Y'all need some of the BDE. Have confidence in your boy being worthy of a slot. What about him makes him less like to be in the pass than anyone else? Go ahead, name them! I'll debunk them on the fly.

Alright, well let me explain my concerns for Geno not being in the fighters pass.

1) Square Enix already has a character in the fighters pass and while there is no evidence to suggest that each publisher will only get one character, there is a high possibility that it is the case. There are still plenty of other characters from other companies that could could take the spots instead like Capcom, Namco, Koei Tecmo and even Bethesda and Activision.

2) If it's to be believed that Nintendo is the one who gave Sakurai a list of characters to work with, what are the possibilities that Geno would be on that list? Banjo & Kazooie probably made it on there due to Phil Spencer's influence but even then, Nintendo weren't very confident in them and likely wouldn't have approached Microsoft on their own. What about Square Enix with Geno? Do either Nintendo or Square Enix see any potential bringing Geno to the fighters pass? We can't rely on them to know about fan demand considering they were surprised that Banjo & Kazooie received so much praise and Geno has nothing to his side except the massive support from his fans.

3) The most infamous one! Spirits could deconfirm Geno. While people may bring up the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies from Smash 4, they were already veterans of the series who have a moveset ready to be ported. This hasn't happened to a new character yet. Sure this maybe a stupid argument but a spirit becoming a new character remains to be seen and we're already half way through the fighters pass with no sign of that changing. Geno's inclusion as a spirit could mean that he was negotiated with and failed to impress Square Enix which is probably as far as Sakurai could push for him.

Chrono would be good. I wonder what his voice will be like? That may be an odd question, since he pretty much does not speak in Chrono Trigger, but he doesn't have to speak in Smash, too. Just making some grunts and such would be fine.

I'd imagine he would have a voice similar to Eight.

 

[Icewolff92]

On one hand, it's very nice to have that surprise element this time (so far).

On the other hand, if it's possibly Geno, I'd want to know before this darn storm blows in because I need good news for once!!!

Didn't Nintendo end up nuking a bunch of other music, too?

They nuked the entire channel that had those track, so I wouldn¨t take it as a sign

 

[link2702]

How I currently feel waiting for a new direct.


Come on Nintendo we’re desperate right now.

 

[Zav22]

Didn't Nintendo end up nuking a bunch of other music, too?

But the question is did that all happen on the same day? Because I do know that the SMRPG songs and Megalovia were both copyrighted by Nintendo back in May 15 of this year. And even if other music did get copyrighted if frisk or any undertale rep in general STILL got in for that reason THAT might lead to Geno being playable for the SAME reason.

 

[ForsakenM]

responding to my part

Spoiler: responding tot he response to my part

First off, I didn't count Bayo twice. Every time I use her emotes, I put both. If Wario had one with his motorbike hat and one with his traditional, I would do both. It's simply that she has an alt costume in the emotes so I put both because I'm weird like that, but I only counted her as one female character. If you had paid a bit more attention when I counted, you would have noticed that.

Secondly, when a character has multiple alts, that is still only one character. Thus, if Hero has three alts of different characters, it's still only 'The Hero'. Since none of the alts are female, he does not count as a character that can be male or female. You counting all the alts of each character ruins the math of doing this per character because you are separating the alts as individual characters when they are not. Same with Olimar and Alph. I was going by characters, of which there are 76, not alts, and therefore if a single character slot has both a male and female alt they would fall under the 'either or' section.

As for the Pokemon, you went WAY to far. This is exactly WHY I put them under non-gendered: It's because we can know their gender in Pokemon when we catch them, but in Smash unless someone from Sora Ltd tells us or it's listed in the game, we have no idea what gender they are. Pulling gender ratios from their games doesn't mean anything as Smash is a different series with different lore. Could be the same ratios, it could be different...we have no idea and thus, unless strictly told BY someone with enough authority who worked on the game, there is no way to know for sure. If you would like to move them into the either-or I suppose you could, but none of these characters have alts that are clearly male and clearly female, thus it makes that category shift difficult to do.

However I do appreciate that you added the Mii Fighters that I totally forgot for some reason. I hate when I do that because I love the Miis but sometimes I forget about them just like everyone else. Also I didn't know Spiky-Eared Pichu was female. Doing it my way where it's just per character slot versus counting each alt as a separate character (which I think is unfair as they are not unique and fully-fledged out characters), that would actually boost the either-or section by four characters and thus make the split that much more even.

Even doing it your way, the male percentage is only around 60% which is still a pretty even split. Depending on what was being discussed, a 60-40 split usually isn't one that is frowned upon all that much. Though I have already discussed why there is a higher percentage of male characters anyway, so there really is no need to go back into this any more past this.

They nuked the entire channel that had those track, so I wouldn¨t take it as a sign

This is misinformation. The truth is that the YTber was constantly hit by Nintendo and he decided to take all the tracks down even though they only bothered him about two.

However, it really doesn't matter as they are going after music channels more frequently now. I just wish people weren't stupid enough to host someone else's content and make money off of it. Seriously, if you just had ads off, you should be fine! If not, then I can only assume Nintendo is doing something like Square Enix did where their music is now on Spotify.

Alright, well let me explain my concerns for Geno not being in the fighters pass.

1) Square Enix already has a character in the fighters pass and while there is no evidence to suggest that each publisher will only get one character, there is a high possibility that it is the case. There are still plenty of other characters from other companies that could could take the spots instead like Capcom, Namco, Koei Tecmo and even Bethesda and Activision.

2) If it's to be believed that Nintendo is the one who gave Sakurai a list of characters to work with, what are the possibilities that Geno would be on that list? Banjo & Kazooie probably made it on there due to Phil Spencer's influence but even then, Nintendo weren't very confident in them and likely wouldn't have approached Microsoft on their own. What about Square Enix with Geno? Do either Nintendo or Square Enix see any potential bringing Geno to the fighters pass? We can't rely on them to know about fan demand considering they were surprised that Banjo & Kazooie received so much praise and Geno has nothing to his side except the massive support from his fans.

3) The most infamous one! Spirits could deconfirm Geno. While people may bring up the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies from Smash 4, they were already veterans of the series who have a moveset ready to be ported. This hasn't happened to a new character yet. Sure this maybe a stupid argument but a spirit becoming a new character remains to be seen and we're already half way through the fighters pass with no sign of that changing. Geno's inclusion as a spirit could mean that he was negotiated with and failed to impress Square Enix which is probably as far as Sakurai could push for him.

Alright, more to debunk! Woohoo~!

1. First off, what makes you think a company would want to limit themselves on characters in one of the biggest video game franchises in the world? Sure, some companies only have one character to really offer, but companies like Capcom, Square Enix, Bandai Namco, Konami and Sega have tons of characters people like and what company DOESN'T like money? So, you may ask, why have we only see one character per company per franchise thus far for DLC then? Well first, Smash 4 was the first time DLC happened. Keep in mind that both and got into Smash 4, it was just the latter was DLC. More than likely, it's a combination of time and budget. When you are trying to crank out a Smash game ASAP you only have so much time for negotiations with other companies and that can take some time, especially if they want to look over your shoulder during the entire creation process. Thus, it may be smarter to only pick one character for the base game, finish them up very nicely, and then come back with a budget that is less in flux and make negotiations for that next character. Also, in fan theory land, it seems that Smash keeps trying to balance the number of fighters from each 3rd Party whenever possible, and the current magic number is three. Capcom: ; Konami: ; Sega: ; Now, look at the two companies who DON'T have three, Square and Namco. Namco has plenty of characters, but they also work on the game, so maybe there is some weird 'let's not be biased here' going on? Square could still get one more though, and we all know who is at the top of fan demand from Square!
2. Where does it say that they were surprised about B&K's praise? The only thing I know about is that they were shocked about the Isaac backlash, and while I will admit that Nintendo was being a little blind there, Isaac fans hadn't been the most vocal for a while. Meanwhile, us Geno fans have been going strong since the ballot and have been going relatively strong since Brawl. They have major evidence of Geno's demand from way-back into yesteryear. Unless Sakurai somehow lost that poll info, they KNOW that Geno has been requested for a long time. As for if Nintendo would put Geno on that list of not...have you SEEN the characters that have been on this list? Joker, Hero, mother****ing Banjo and Kazooie? It seems to me like Nintendo is in the know, both via what Sakurai knows and what fans have clamored for. Keep in mind all the SMRPG references and how Geno's name has been involved in public events recently (NoA Twitter post, VGAs trivia). All of these gives me the sneaking suspicion that Sakurai had more pull on what was on that list than he may ever even admit to, that sly ol' kitsune! :D
3. Man, how many times I gotta kill this argument? Spirits =/= character can't happen. Imagine thinking a static picture with a simple function in a video game chosen by a team that Sakurai had little engagement with meant that the character has no future in Smash. It's literally just having a limited mindset in a time where Sakurai has destroyed more fan rules than ever before. Also, can people stop acting like Square Enix is a demon please? They are just a company who keeps struggling financially and is very protective of their characters and IPs. FF7R is proof that they are amazing and they need money, so getting a character in that they think is pointless at the very least will make them some money. Then we BLOW THAT **** UP AND BUY GENO LIKE HE'S THE COOLEST THING SINCE SLICE BREAD BECAUSE HE IS GODDAMNIT and suddenly they are like "Oh, we heard people liked him but we weren't sure about until now. Seems like people still want more...uh, hey, Nintendo? You remember that only game we made together 23 years ago? Yeah, so, about that..."

Also, to go more into something I may or may not have brought up before. I think the biggest reason we haven't seen Geno at all is that not only does Nintendo not own him or anything SMRPG other than clearly Mario things before the game was made, but Square Enix has that Japanese culture thing going on. Have you ever made something you really liked or watched something you really loved with someone important to you, and now that person is gone, and as much as you want to do more you feel like you just can't do it without them? Like it would be wrong somehow if you did? In my opinion, I think this is what is going on with Square.

First off, this is older than Square Enix: SMRPG was back in the Squaresoft days, and sadly a lot of the stuff from back then hasn't returned in full glory. Secondly, SMRPG was the last thing Nintendo and Square did back then, and soon after that had the parting of ways that may or may not have been more toxic than we realize. Imagine Square, hitting their prime and falling off harder than Nintendo, and having an IP that could very well make you some money but it reminds you of back then and Nintendo and you just can't do it! Now, for the Japanese culture: Do you think that it would be disrespectful in Japan for a company to use that character from a game that isn't TRULY theirs due to the major points and the heart and soul being from another company?

I know it may sound dumb, but try to think about it in a personal way, like you are the one who made Geno and Mallow and a friend of yours that you parted ways with in a manner that wasn't very healthy had the Nintendo goodness. Would it feel right to make more, or would you feel like it had to be with that old friend? Would the fact that you aren't friends anymore cause you to just stow the idea away and do nothing but entertain it every now and again? Now, imagine that you aren't doing so well yourself and are struggling to keep afloat and that old friend comes back into your life and they are EXTREMELY successful! How awkward would it be to work with them on that old project? Would you even want to bring it up? How would you respond if they brought it up?

I get that we are talking about businesses here, but businesses are run by human beings and human beings aren't exactly logical all the time.

Just something for you guys to consider.

 

[MattX20]

And thus, the final wait begins. Only 4 days to go.

 

[CannonStreak]

And thus, the final wait begins. Only 4 days to go.

Until what, exactly?

 

[MattX20]

Until what, exactly?

If the rumors are to be believed, the September Direct. A lot of people in the speculation scene are saying the 5th.

 

[6eyondthegrave]

Ninja Gaiden... if Hayabusa is in... I’m totally hyped! Still waiting for my boi Geno https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...uper-smash-bros-ultimate-after-banjo-kazooie/

 

[CannonStreak]

If the rumors are to be believed, the September Direct. A lot of people in the speculation scene are saying the 5th.

Ah, I thought so. Not surprised.

 

[domriver]

Corrin and Bayo were released on the same day though. The spacing of the characters seems deliberate too. Spring, Summer, Fall, "Winter", and probably February. Two characters announced at E3 made sense not only because it's the biggest gaming event of the year but because they were slated for different times. Like I said, Sakurai's recent statements about the budget make me think that a formal Smash Direct isn't going to happen so there's not a lot of opportunities left for two character announcements.

Sounds about right though i am a little bit on the Closing Season 1 Fighter Pass Direct possibility. Budget wise i really dont know to be honest i thought this game is swimming in money. But of course business is business there has to be restrictions. Anyways, Fatmanonice You think any chance of receiving these DLC's ahead of schedule? Sakurai mentioned ( im sure there is quote from him somewhere) stating that they are ahead of schedule. Hence why we got Hero and Banjo trailers. They both looked very much done. Your thoughts on that.

 

[MattX20]

Ninja Gaiden... if Hayabusa is in... I’m totally hyped! Still waiting for my boi Geno https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2019...uper-smash-bros-ultimate-after-banjo-kazooie/

Sabi and Vergeben made it clear they don't trust Shifty and his claims, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[wynn728]

3) The most infamous one! Spirits could deconfirm Geno. While people may bring up the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies from Smash 4, they were already veterans of the series who have a moveset ready to be ported. This hasn't happened to a new character yet. Sure this maybe a stupid argument but a spirit becoming a new character remains to be seen and we're already half way through the fighters pass with no sign of that changing. Geno's inclusion as a spirit could mean that he was negotiated with and failed to impress Square Enix which is probably as far as Sakurai could push for him.

Well let's not forget that Trophies took a lot of time to make so they had to have a team to work on ot early on and the DLC for Smash Bros 4 seems to be decided on very late in production.
With Ultimate everything was finalized in November which means they had the DLC planned out in addition since they had to negotiate the rights for third party characters that would take a lot of time to do. This is a logical conclusion seeing how it took Mewtwo 7 months to release while it took Joker 4 months to release.

 

[Vector Victor]

I'm going to make a baseless timeline.

Sept 3: Nintendo announces a Direct for Thursday Sept 5th at 6PM eastern.

Sept 5: 37 minute Direct with games like Animal Crossing, No More Heroes, Bayonetta 3, a new game, 3 Houses DLC and something with Mario Maker. Then a SNES service or game vault announcement showing Mario World, DKC, Dragon Quest and SMRPG. Ends with FP character 4 in Smash: Geno.

Sept 5, 6:39PM, internet explodes.

Banjo's gameplay trailer Sept 30, release October 4th. Character 4 slated for December.


Perhaps I'll be so wrong that it will trick the universe and make me right.

 

[TheHeartbreakKid]

it seems to imply Nintendo just gave Sakurai a list of characters and he picked 5 he felt could work. Very interesting!

No offense to you or anyone else, but this is LITERALLY how Sakurai explained the DLC process from the very start. For some reason everyone has been pushing this "NINTENDO PICKED THE DLC" narrative since the beginning, when the ONLY supposed evidence for this is a tweet from Sakurai which says THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

A misunderstanding is fine, but people have used this flat-out wrong argument to say "Geno/Banjo/Rayman is deconfirmed cause NINTENDO PICKED THE DLC" and it's been absolutely INFURIATING

 

[nessdeltarune00]

Sabi and Vergeben made it clear they don't trust Shifty and his claims, so take that with a grain of salt.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77977357?jumpto=21#21

Verge never said that

 

[DaxMasterix]

Shifty sounds so convinced, isn't he scared of Ninjas? (joke intended)

 

[ForsakenM]

Hey guys! So I will be streaming SMRPG today, but I'm going to at least clear one world on Banjo-Kazooie before hand.

I will be streaming in just under 30 mins if all goes according to plan. I will be featuring some new art this time around, and I'm kinda excited!

Hope yo see you all there!

Spoiler

https://www.twitch.tv/forsakenm
https://www.youtube.com/ForsakenMemories45

 

[TheCJBrine]

I think the direct could be on Wednesday, like last year.

Yes, I’m impatient. Gimme some sweet pikpik carrots and kerokero cola.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Shifty sounds so convinced, isn't he scared of Ninjas? (joke intended)

The thing is, Shifty claims he has no sources right? Its one of those things that Nintendo can't even go after him for. Plus, if they do right now, then we know Hyabusa is Character 4.

 

[MisterMike]

Alright, more to debunk! Woohoo~!

1. First off, what makes you think a company would want to limit themselves on characters in one of the biggest video game franchises in the world? Sure, some companies only have one character to really offer, but companies like Capcom, Square Enix, Bandai Namco, Konami and Sega have tons of characters people like and what company DOESN'T like money? So, you may ask, why have we only see one character per company per franchise thus far for DLC then? Well first, Smash 4 was the first time DLC happened. Keep in mind that both and got into Smash 4, it was just the latter was DLC. More than likely, it's a combination of time and budget. When you are trying to crank out a Smash game ASAP you only have so much time for negotiations with other companies and that can take some time, especially if they want to look over your shoulder during the entire creation process. Thus, it may be smarter to only pick one character for the base game, finish them up very nicely, and then come back with a budget that is less in flux and make negotiations for that next character. Also, in fan theory land, it seems that Smash keeps trying to balance the number of fighters from each 3rd Party whenever possible, and the current magic number is three. Capcom: ; Konami: ; Sega: ; Now, look at the two companies who DON'T have three, Square and Namco. Namco has plenty of characters, but they also work on the game, so maybe there is some weird 'let's not be biased here' going on? Square could still get one more though, and we all know who is at the top of fan demand from Square!
2. Where does it say that they were surprised about B&K's praise? The only thing I know about is that they were shocked about the Isaac backlash, and while I will admit that Nintendo was being a little blind there, Isaac fans hadn't been the most vocal for a while. Meanwhile, us Geno fans have been going strong since the ballot and have been going relatively strong since Brawl. They have major evidence of Geno's demand from way-back into yesteryear. Unless Sakurai somehow lost that poll info, they KNOW that Geno has been requested for a long time. As for if Nintendo would put Geno on that list of not...have you SEEN the characters that have been on this list? Joker, Hero, mother****ing Banjo and Kazooie? It seems to me like Nintendo is in the know, both via what Sakurai knows and what fans have clamored for. Keep in mind all the SMRPG references and how Geno's name has been involved in public events recently (NoA Twitter post, VGAs trivia). All of these gives me the sneaking suspicion that Sakurai had more pull on what was on that list than he may ever even admit to, that sly ol' kitsune! :D
3. Man, how many times I gotta kill this argument? Spirits =/= character can't happen. Imagine thinking a static picture with a simple function in a video game chosen by a team that Sakurai had little engagement with meant that the character has no future in Smash. It's literally just having a limited mindset in a time where Sakurai has destroyed more fan rules than ever before. Also, can people stop acting like Square Enix is a demon please? They are just a company who keeps struggling financially and is very protective of their characters and IPs. FF7R is proof that they are amazing and they need money, so getting a character in that they think is pointless at the very least will make them some money. Then we BLOW THAT **** UP AND BUY GENO LIKE HE'S THE COOLEST THING SINCE SLICE BREAD BECAUSE HE IS GODDAMNIT and suddenly they are like "Oh, we heard people liked him but we weren't sure about until now. Seems like people still want more...uh, hey, Nintendo? You remember that only game we made together 23 years ago? Yeah, so, about that..."

Also, to go more into something I may or may not have brought up before. I think the biggest reason we haven't seen Geno at all is that not only does Nintendo not own him or anything SMRPG other than clearly Mario things before the game was made, but Square Enix has that Japanese culture thing going on. Have you ever made something you really liked or watched something you really loved with someone important to you, and now that person is gone, and as much as you want to do more you feel like you just can't do it without them? Like it would be wrong somehow if you did? In my opinion, I think this is what is going on with Square.

First off, this is older than Square Enix: SMRPG was back in the Squaresoft days, and sadly a lot of the stuff from back then hasn't returned in full glory. Secondly, SMRPG was the last thing Nintendo and Square did back then, and soon after that had the parting of ways that may or may not have been more toxic than we realize. Imagine Square, hitting their prime and falling off harder than Nintendo, and having an IP that could very well make you some money but it reminds you of back then and Nintendo and you just can't do it! Now, for the Japanese culture: Do you think that it would be disrespectful in Japan for a company to use that character from a game that isn't TRULY theirs due to the major points and the heart and soul being from another company?

I know it may sound dumb, but try to think about it in a personal way, like you are the one who made Geno and Mallow and a friend of yours that you parted ways with in a manner that wasn't very healthy had the Nintendo goodness. Would it feel right to make more, or would you feel like it had to be with that old friend? Would the fact that you aren't friends anymore cause you to just stow the idea away and do nothing but entertain it every now and again? Now, imagine that you aren't doing so well yourself and are struggling to keep afloat and that old friend comes back into your life and that are EXTREMELY successful! How awkward would it be to work with them on that old project? Would you even want to bring it up? How would you respond if they brought it up?

I get that we are talking about businesses here, but businesses are run by human beings and human beings aren't exactly logical all the time.

Just something for you guys to consider.

Couldn't have said it better myself, especially that third point.
"We'll NEVER have third-party characters in Smash!"
Grrrrrrn...
"W-well that's all we're going to get! We'll never have TWO third-party characters in Smash!"
YOU'RE TOO SLOW! (Also, they delayed Brawl specifically to get him in.)
"Y-yeah? Well THAT's where it ends!"
*Beep-Boop!**Waka-Waka!*
"Okay, okay, FINE! Smash can get a lot of big third-party characters, but there plenty of characters have been cut who will NEVER return, such as fan-favorite character Mewtwo! I mean, he has a trophy already! That DEFINITELY means he's not coming back!"
Maniacal laugh!~
"Okay but they were PLANNING to add him as DLC from the get go! What about characters like Lucas, who also already has a trophy, or Roy, who wasn't even relevant enough to get one? SURELY they wouldn't be able to bring THESE characters back!"
PK FIRE!BOKU WA MAKENAI!
"OKAY, WHATEVER! We STILL didn't get Ridley for Smash like we've all wanted, though! Even after the Smash Bros. Fighter Ballot, Ridley still didn't get in! Not that he'd get in anyways, he's TOO BIG!™ Even SAKURAI believes he wouldn't work in Smash! Sure, he said the same things about and during the Brawl days, but this is too BIG a point against Ridley's chances to ignore! Ridley is NEVCER going to be in Smash! EVER!"
*Happy screeching*
"Okay fine, you got your stupid Pteradactyl, but that's all the Ballot will be used for, surely! We're NEVER gonna get someone like King K. Rool in Smash! I mean, Sakurai HATES the Donkey Kong series, and King K. Rool is irrelevant! Also, no credible leaker is talking about him, so SURELY King K. Rool isn't making it in! Deal with it, LIKE I HAVE!"
*Elton John intensifies*
"****! Okay, whatever, but look at the rest of the fighters that made it into the base game! No Isaac or Geno in sight! SUCK IT, GRINCH LEAK! And now we're getting 5 DLC characters! And would you look at this?!"

There was a problem fetching the tweet

"Nintendo was the one who picked the fighters for this DLC! And you know what happened last time when Nintendo picked DLC fighters, right? O-okay sure, Sakurai still has final say on which character they're including, and we don't know how big the list Nintendo made truly was, and it's enitrely POSSIBLE that they used the data collected from the Fighter Ballot to make this list, and it's ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that those characters are fan-favorites we've wanted since forever... BUT THAT'LL NEVER HAPPEN! I hope you guys are ready for Edelgard from Warm Icon: More-than-two-but-less-than-four Domiciles! And what's that? Is that the sound of STEVE MINECRAFT from the hit video game series Quarrybuild I hear?! I think it is!"
You'll never see it COMIIIIING!~
"What, really? Wow, that's actually pretty cool--wait, WHAT AM I SAYING?! This is just proof beyond proof that we're only gonna get shill picks!"
"A Hero draws near! Command?"
"Wow, Dragon Quest is so popular in Japan! And they even included the DQ8 protag for the wester fans! I'm sure they're beyond estatic to have... I-I mean WHO GIVES A ****, THAT'S A SHILL PICK AS WELL!! And they'll ALL be shill picks! I'm sorry to break this to you, I know we all want Banjo & Kazooie in Smash, but with all of these shill picks it's never gonna happen! And besides, Banjo-Kazooie hasn't been relevant since the late 90's! Do kids these days even know what a banjo is? Is that a Fortnite character or something? Steve from Minecraft is totally gonna be the character Microsoft will go with, assuming Nintendo is even willing to work with their direct competition, that is! Also, I don't care that Phil Spencer said he'd be totally fine with allowing Banjo in Smash. He's only the head of Microsoft Game Studios, what would he know?"
*Shinobi intensifies*
"Wha... N-no, NO, NO! **** OFF SHINOBI YOU INSIDER ****, DON'T YOU DARE GIVE ME HOPE! I just got finished getting comfortable in the safety of my indifference, don't you DARE give me hope that Banjo is getting into Smash!"
GU-HUH!
"... Okay fine, we got Banjo & Kazooie in Smash, and I know you're now starting to hope that Geno will make it in after all these years, but let's be realistic about this. Geno will NEVER get into Smash as a playable fighter. There's already a Geno spirit in the game, we've already got a SquareEnix character in this DLC Fighter Pass, nobody knows or cares about Geno at all aside from us, and some random guy on 4chan just leaked that Putt-Putt is getting in. The starling image is probably pointing to Tracer anyways, so why get excited over something that'll never happen?"

It happens every time, every single time we as a community come up with some reasons as to why a character or characters we want can't or won't happen, they're always proven wrong. Then we come up with new ones or move the goalposts on the ones we still stick with and the cycle continues.

The Banjo thread was exactly like this. Even when we had all sorts of evidence pointing towards Banjo & Kazooie's inclusion, up to and including an industry insider all but outright stating that they were in, we all still acted like it was never gonna happen, coming up with all sorts of reasons as to why it'll never happen, so we can continue to stew in our own pessimism and hopelessness. I understand being skeptical, I mean I'm all sorts of skepical these days, but unless there's something more substantial that outright means that Geno isn't coming, PLEASE stop presenting and arguing these assumptions as ironclad rules.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Spoiler: responding tot he response to my part

First off, I didn't count Bayo twice. Every time I use her emotes, I put both. If Wario had one with his motorbike hat and one with his traditional, I would do both. It's simply that she has an alt costume in the emotes so I put both because I'm weird like that, but I only counted her as one female character. If you had paid a bit more attention when I counted, you would have noticed that.

Secondly, when a character has multiple alts, that is still only one character. Thus, if Hero has three alts of different characters, it's still only 'The Hero'. Since none of the alts are female, he does not count as a character that can be male or female. You counting all the alts of each character ruins the math of doing this per character because you are separating the alts as individual characters when they are not. Same with Olimar and Alph. I was going by characters, of which there are 76, not alts, and therefore if a single character slot has both a male and female alt they would fall under the 'either or' section.

As for the Pokemon, you went WAY to far. This is exactly WHY I put them under non-gendered: It's because we can know their gender in Pokemon when we catch them, but in Smash unless someone from Sora Ltd tells us or it's listed in the game, we have no idea what gender they are. Pulling gender ratios from their games doesn't mean anything as Smash is a different series with different lore. Could be the same ratios, it could be different...we have no idea and thus, unless strictly told BY someone with enough authority who worked on the game, there is no way to know for sure. If you would like to move them into the either-or I suppose you could, but none of these characters have alts that are clearly male and clearly female, thus it makes that category shift difficult to do.

However I do appreciate that you added the Mii Fighters that I totally forgot for some reason. I hate when I do that because I love the Miis but sometimes I forget about them just like everyone else. Also I didn't know Spiky-Eared Pichu was female. Doing it my way where it's just per character slot versus counting each alt as a separate character (which I think is unfair as they are not unique and fully-fledged out characters), that would actually boost the either-or section by four characters and thus make the split that much more even.

Even doing it your way, the male percentage is only around 60% which is still a pretty even split. Depending on what was being discussed, a 60-40 split usually isn't one that is frowned upon all that much. Though I have already discussed why there is a higher percentage of male characters anyway, so there really is no need to go back into this any more past this.

Spoiler: My Big Response

Actually, your original post did count Bayonetta twice as you listed the "female icons," and said there were 12 when there were only 11 characters (but 12 icons).

Alts deserve as much attention as main characters because they are playable "defined" characters that have the same movepool. There essentially a different form of Echoes (Bowser Jr. for example uses a hammer in some animations whereas the Koopalings use their wands, which is already kind of approaching the baseline Echo level TBH) and they do add more representation to the game in whatever form they come in. I also think it's important to do this because being able to do this distinction because it helps the case of the overall representation females in Smash as you're more or less arguing that only the "main" fighter counts and thus the default alt is "the character." Which if you do that, then these characters: would be counted as male to the female: . That especially bothers me with the Koopalings depiciton you make because you count them as "both" when in fact its 7 male Koopalings to a single female Koopaling that clearly isn't an equal split of representation like the other five that share alts for both male and female characters. I absolutely think named fighters (which is what those alts are, except in Hero's case, whose alts are named as seen with Sakurai's video on Hero, but not in Smash itself) should be considered when discussing this ratio.

I don't think I went way too far on Pokemon by bringing up their canonical gender ratios in the games because that's largely how these characters have been adapted into Smash. Honestly, I could have gone much further and deemed them as predominately male because they're 100% depicted as such (Lucario in particular is voiced by a male and shouts max aura, so I don't see wiggle room for him to be considered female since he doesn't just shout his name like the Pokemon Trainer fighters). Incineroar is almost always canonically a male in Pokemon and that's what The Pokemon Company would have presented to Sakurai for his interpretation. It's a bit messy, but I do think it's pertinent information to consider. But all I did was acknowledge that point without actually labeling them any differently for the sake of these statistics.

You're 60% figure is still somewhat dishonest to because the 60% figure only applies to "exclusively male characters," whereas the remaining 40% is comprised of a variety of characters from different categories (no gender, both male and female alts, and characters who are "male" with a "female" support). Banjo, the Dog from Duck Hunt, and Popo are all the male characters who do almost all of the actual moveset for example, so they're really "male" for all intensive purposes (Especially Ice Climbers, you literally cannot control Nana in any way other than having her mimic the actions of Popo and she's absolutely treated differently from Popo). Then there are five characters that are have male and female options. There's a male "presence" in 84.6% (77 fighters out of 91 total can be male) of the roster, whereas at absolute best there is only a 38.5% female "presence" (35/91 total can be female) when you count all alts towards both ideas. There's more of an imbalance when you look at it any other way than "not exclusively male characters" vs "exclusively male characters." I'm not trying to say you're being dishonest in any way, just that I think the data tells a different story when you look at it from a different angle. For reference, if you refuse to count the unqiue alts but still count the favorable different alts towards representation then you do get better numbers (which feels a bit off to me as I mentioned). The issue is that these numbers also rely on not clearly labeling the Pokemon, which doesn't really contribute meaningfully to either "male" or "female" representation if you can't know them, and like I mentioned, I generally think they seem intentionally gendered in Smash whether we like it or not.

I do have one correction though, I accidentally counted Pokemon Trainer as his own character when I was already counting Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. And I had left Lucina out, so that brings us to 12/91 characters as solely female and I've reflected that in the above percentages. Point is, Smash would benefit from more "exclusively female characters" and there are options from both first parties and third parties. A nice little list would be something like:

-Dixie Kong
-Krytal
-Shantae
-Lip
-Ashley
(These previous five all had fan support and fan requests in this cycle)
-Lara Croft
-Jill Valentine (She may potentially get in alongside her male counterparts, so it sort of depends on how they handle a "Resident Evil character")
-Tracer
-Choosing one of the female ARMS characters over Springman because he's one of the least popular ARMS characters and there's nothing remotely "main" character about him besides the fact he appeared in the advertising lol.

There's just a short list of characters that could be added from the female side of things that don't require reaching and are generally either fan demanded or big, popular characters from their respective genres/games. I'm not saying there has to be more females, I'm just saying there are some kickass options that fit the bill as far as we're all concerned in terms of Smash characters!

 

[StarLight42]

Good post ForsakenM

I always thought Geno would add a lot of value to the Fighter’s Pass, especially paired with Banjo and Kazooie

Sadly, my hopes are pretty low right now with all the Ryu Hayabusa rumors

 

[ForsakenM]

Moving onto SMRPG! Feel free to come hang out! I'll be talking about what I love and what I think could be improved during the stream!

OPERATION STARFALL, REPRESEEEEEEEENNNT!

 

[Bob-Omber]

Good post ForsakenM

I always thought Geno would add a lot of value to the Fighter’s Pass, especially paired with Banjo and Kazooie

Sadly, my hopes are pretty low right now with all the Ryu Hayabusa rumors

Well when you think about it the only thing we have to go on with Ryu is was shifty said and the starling possibly leading to falcons so its unlikely its him right?

 

[wynn728]

Man, how many times I gotta kill this argument? Spirits =/= character can't happen. Imagine thinking a static picture with a simple function in a video game chosen by a team that Sakurai had little engagement with meant that the character has no future in Smash. It's literally just having a limited mindset in a time where Sakurai has destroyed more fan rules than ever before. Also, can people stop acting like Square Enix is a demon please? They are just a company who keeps struggling financially and is very protective of their characters and IPs. FF7R is proof that they are amazing and they need money, so getting a character in that they think is pointless at the very least will make them some money. Then we BLOW THAT **** UP AND BUY GENO LIKE HE'S THE COOLEST THING SINCE SLICE BREAD BECAUSE HE IS GODDAMNIT and suddenly they are like "Oh, we heard people liked him but we weren't sure about until now. Seems like people still want more...uh, hey, Nintendo? You remember that only game we made together 23 years ago? Yeah, so, about that..."

You really can't kill that argument when not a single Spirit has been turn into a fighter. They're not deconfirm just because they're a Spirit, they're a Spirit because there was no plans for those characters to be part of the DLC. If there's another Fighters Pass then sure they will be considered, even Assist Trophies might get a second shot, but not for this current Fighters Pass. Everything was decided early in development for the base game, it wasn't all said and done on November. They knew which five characters they want so they could just make the rest into Spirits. If we get to the last two fighters and none of them are Spirits that means that none of those characters were up for consideration, so your argument is wrong. This is most likely going to be our last Fighters Pass. They're most likely not going to do a second one and there's no way a bonus fighter is happening (that one is honestly annoying).

If they're a Spirit that means there wasn't any plans for them, same with Assist Trophies and Mii Costumes.

 

[Icewolff92]

Where does it say that they were surprised about B&K's praise?

https://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/...rised-by-the-reaction-to-banjos-smash-reveal/

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Do you guys think we might get another Smash Ballot character in the Season Pass besides Banjo & Kazooie? I'm not set on that happening, but I do see it as a 50/50 possibility as Banjo & Kazooie are in the Season Pass and they could have easily picked Steve or Master Chief instead but went straight for Banjo & Kazooie for the fans. I do think Geno is still in the running and he shouldn't be counted out just because of him having a dumb png image Spirit already in the game.

 

[Loog]

So what do people think will show up in a september you know besides smash and overwatch I guess. I feel they finally have to reveal pikmin 3 port or some wii u port of some kind.

 

[xpnc]

Do you guys think we might get another Smash Ballot character in the Season Pass besides Banjo & Kazooie? I'm not set on that happening, but I do see it as a 50/50 possibility as Banjo & Kazooie are in the Season Pass and they could have easily picked Steve or Master Chief instead but went straight for Banjo & Kazooie for the fans. I do think Geno is still in the running and he shouldn't be counted out just because of him having a dumb png image Spirit already in the game.

I think the last two will be Geno and Doomguy with Geno being a ballot pick

 

[MattX20]

So what do people think will show up in a september you know besides smash and overwatch I guess. I feel they finally have to reveal pikmin 3 port or some wii u port of some kind.

Well, I'm hoping for at least some updates for Pikmin 4 so those fans have something, Shin Megami Tensei 5, and Bayonetta 3. All of those games have been in development for a few years now, and I think many want to see some kind of news for them

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I think the last two will be Geno and Doomguy with Geno being a ballot pick

Hell I would take it! I wouldn't be that excited for Doom Slayer but Banjo & Kazooie alone already sold me on the Season Pass and Geno would seal the deal for me for this game.

 

[DaxMasterix]

Imagine recieving Geno in 4 days from now

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Alright, more to debunk! Woohoo~!

1. First off, what makes you think a company would want to limit themselves on characters in one of the biggest video game franchises in the world? Sure, some companies only have one character to really offer, but companies like Capcom, Square Enix, Bandai Namco, Konami and Sega have tons of characters people like and what company DOESN'T like money? So, you may ask, why have we only see one character per company per franchise thus far for DLC then? Well first, Smash 4 was the first time DLC happened. Keep in mind that both and got into Smash 4, it was just the latter was DLC. More than likely, it's a combination of time and budget. When you are trying to crank out a Smash game ASAP you only have so much time for negotiations with other companies and that can take some time, especially if they want to look over your shoulder during the entire creation process. Thus, it may be smarter to only pick one character for the base game, finish them up very nicely, and then come back with a budget that is less in flux and make negotiations for that next character. Also, in fan theory land, it seems that Smash keeps trying to balance the number of fighters from each 3rd Party whenever possible, and the current magic number is three. Capcom: ; Konami: ; Sega: ; Now, look at the two companies who DON'T have three, Square and Namco. Namco has plenty of characters, but they also work on the game, so maybe there is some weird 'let's not be biased here' going on? Square could still get one more though, and we all know who is at the top of fan demand from Square!
2. Where does it say that they were surprised about B&K's praise? The only thing I know about is that they were shocked about the Isaac backlash, and while I will admit that Nintendo was being a little blind there, Isaac fans hadn't been the most vocal for a while. Meanwhile, us Geno fans have been going strong since the ballot and have been going relatively strong since Brawl. They have major evidence of Geno's demand from way-back into yesteryear. Unless Sakurai somehow lost that poll info, they KNOW that Geno has been requested for a long time. As for if Nintendo would put Geno on that list of not...have you SEEN the characters that have been on this list? Joker, Hero, mother****ing Banjo and Kazooie? It seems to me like Nintendo is in the know, both via what Sakurai knows and what fans have clamored for. Keep in mind all the SMRPG references and how Geno's name has been involved in public events recently (NoA Twitter post, VGAs trivia). All of these gives me the sneaking suspicion that Sakurai had more pull on what was on that list than he may ever even admit to, that sly ol' kitsune! :D
3. Man, how many times I gotta kill this argument? Spirits =/= character can't happen. Imagine thinking a static picture with a simple function in a video game chosen by a team that Sakurai had little engagement with meant that the character has no future in Smash. It's literally just having a limited mindset in a time where Sakurai has destroyed more fan rules than ever before.

1) It's really Nintendo's choice to decide what characters were on the list. Sure they could have asked each publisher more than one character to be put in Smash but it makes more sense to reach out to different companies to gather their support for Nintendo. Square Enix already has Cloud for the base game and Hero for DLC and while they could add Geno, their stance on him is even more ambiguous than Nintendo. They could not be aware of his existence at all because of how long ago his debut game was made.

2) Grant Kirkhope said it himself: https://nintendoeverything.com/comp...tion-to-banjo-kazooie-in-smash-bros-ultimate/ (Thanks Icewolff92)
Keep in mind that Banjo Kazooie were also highly requested during the ballot and Nintendo were still surprised by the reactions he got so you can't trust Nintendo to be aware of fan requests. Like I said before, Banjo & Kazooie most likely made that list because Phil Spencer pushed for them, otherwise Nintendo wouldn't have even thought about asking for them. Dragon Quest is published by Nintendo for the Switch ports so hero being on the list was a given. Joker is the only one that is odd for Nintendo to pick but I'm willing to bet that they were aware of Sakurai's interest in the series to motivate him for the fighters pass as he has stated that he does not like the idea of it.

3) You're really underestimating the importance of spirits. Sakurai explained that spirits are there to simulate the experience of fighting that character. Spirits also play a big part in the adventure mode, daily events and tournaments. To you and I, they're just a bunch of jpeg images but to Sakurai, it's a way of adding more characters to shake off the work load.
Again we have yet to see a spirit become a character and we're already half way through fighters pass. If fighters 4 and 5 aren't characters who already have spirits then it proves that spirits deconfirm characters, unless more DLC is announced.

But hey, I could be wrong. Geno could make it into the fighters pass despite everything I have said since most characters do have the tendency to sneak in and subvert expectations. Geno could very well be the character that destroys the "spirits deconfirm characters" rule but right now I just don't see it happening. Hopefully if Geno is fighter 4 or 5, that debate will finally be put to bed.

 

[Deleted member]

You really can't kill that argument when not a single Spirit has been turn into a fighter. They're not deconfirm just because they're a Spirit, they're a Spirit because there was no plans for those characters to be part of the DLC. If there's another Fighters Pass then sure they will be considered, even Assist Trophies might get a second shot, but not for this current Fighters Pass. Everything was decided early in development for the base game, it wasn't all said and done on November. They knew which five characters they want so they could just make the rest into Spirits. If we get to the last two fighters and none of them are Spirits that means that none of those characters were up for consideration, so your argument is wrong. This is most likely going to be our last Fighters Pass. They're most likely not going to do a second one and there's no way a bonus fighter is happening (that one is honestly annoying).

If they're a Spirit that means there wasn't any plans for them, same with Assist Trophies and Mii Costumes.

They're spirits because there were no plans for them in the base game. We "know" (as well as we can "know" anything) that DLC wasn't finalized until after the game was approved for launch. None of it was worked on while the game was "in development", which is any time unitl it goes gold.

I hate to always bring it up, but he's my main so it hits close to home: Lucas was a trash looking trophy in Smash 4 until all of a sudden he was revealed as a DLC fighter, months after the game launched, on April Fools day, no less.

If Geno was in an assist trophy I'd get where the animosity is but right now, he's got Lucas' chances of getting into Smash 4. I don't care that Lucas "had a moveset", because fact: Ness stole Lucas' specials with his customs. Lucas was dead in the water and still got added in.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Imagine recieving Geno in 4 days from now

If so this will be our reaction:

 

[Icewolff92]

So what do people think will show up in a september you know besides smash and overwatch I guess. I feel they finally have to reveal pikmin 3 port or some wii u port of some kind.

Ports and updates.

 

[Deleted member]

If so this will be our reaction:

Too weak to be my reaction. I see playable fighter Geno? I'm going nuclear. Nothing for miles will survive. No living soul will go without knowing exactly how unendingly pumped I am. Maybe even the dead will know it. My friends, family and maybe even my coworkers will be scared for my sanity as I cry my eyes out over a DLC character in a children's party game.

I might just die, but at least I'll have died happy.