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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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ChronoBound

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A year ago I said this:

Geno was the one character I felt the most confident in seeing making it into Ultimate. This was due primarily due to Sakurai's comments on Geno back in 2016 (that he personally liked him and wanted to make him playable in Brawl) and the omission of the two Square-Enix Mii costumes from Hero's update (the only update that did not have returning Mii costumes).

I was wrong. I apologize to any of you that took security into my insight regarding Geno's chances.

I am now working on a massive essay pertaining to the deconfirmation of Geno. While I was not a Geno supporter, I do feel sympathy for Geno supporters, and I hope to make them feel better through sharing stories about my own personal experiences with Super Mario RPG, written stories about my own personal Geno's (minor game characters that I am personally fond of), an essay about understanding how fortunate the Mii costume even was, an essay about hope for the future in regards to Geno's playable Smash inclusion, and finally an essay about the nature of actually "winning" (your character of choice making it onto Smash's roster) and what is truly important in the long run for the individuals within these fanbases. It is very comprehensive. It will take me a very long time to complete though.

Here is a small excerpt:

I want to relay some of many personal experiences that I had with SMRPG. It was probably the first RPG I ever extensively played. It is among the SNES titles to which I hold some of the most sentimental value towards. It was also one of my first exposures to a fully 3D game. It and Super Mario 64 I felt complemented each other as alternative interpretations of the world of Mario brought into 3D.

Indeed , Super Mario RPG represented a sort of Janus to me personally, a transition between the world of 2D and the new emerging 3D revolution taking over video games in general. SMRPG to me made me feel at the time that the SNES still had a future, and could live alongside the Nintendo 64. Super Mario RPG, Donkey Kong Country 3, Kirby Superstar, Tetris Attack, and Lufia II were all games that made the SNES still very dear to me throughout 1997 despite also having a Nintendo 64 at the time. However, it was Super Mario RPG that showed there was still novel things that could be done with the SNES and that it was still a game console where fantastic and amazing new game experiences could be found.

Unfortunately it ended up being the case that 1996 was the last year of heavy support for the SNES. 1997 ended up being the last year to which the SNES still got more than a handful of new releases. Kirby’s Dream Land 3 was the only SNES title I got for Christmas of 1997.

However, Super Mario RPG was a game that managed to captivate my imagination and interest well beyond the SNES’s lifespan. It was a very influential game in regards to my own personal tastes in regards to games, and one that helped expand what I had come to expect from a video game.

As I said earlier, the world of Super Mario RPG and the world of Super Mario 64 were seen by me as alternative interpretations of the new frontier that was 3D gaming brought to the Super Mario universe. Super Mario RPG’s world was one that was highly populated, filled with as much friends as there were enemies, full of humor and good laughs, and all sorts of colorful characters. By contrast, Super Mario 64 was a mostly lonely and mysterious world, one filled mostly with enemies and friends few and far in between, a world that needed to be fully explored and mystery around every corner. While SMRPG was a world of humor, Super Mario 64’s world was a wide spectrum between laughter (through fun, not text) and “playing in the sandbox” to being on edge on what the world around you brought (from the general environment of Big Boo’s Haunt to the foreboding sign describing Dorrie, “Don’t become her lunch.”).

These two games were the titles to which I fully became a fan of Mario. There were many Mario titles to which I had enjoyed prior to Super Mario 64 and Super Mario RPG. Namely, the original NES trilogy, Super Mario World, and Super Mario All-Stars. However, it was with SMRPG and SM64 to which the idea of Super Mario being one of my favorite game franchises had finally manifest.

Another was how Mario was portrayed in both of these titles as a charming character, especially in Super Mario RPG. In Super Mario 64, Mario was brought to life through short sentences, grunts, various cries of happy excitement or pain, and various other voice effects. In Super Mario RPG, Mario was given no voice at all, not even text, instead of his characterization was driven by his actions. A man of action literally and metaphorically.

Mario’s characterization through emoting made him a very charming and humorous character despite being a silent protagonist. The only other silent protagonist that managed to capture the humor and charm I saw with Mario in Super Mario RPG was with Chrono Trigger’s Crono. However, despite Mario’s direction in SMRPG being a parody of the limitations of the silent protagonist trope in games, he actually ended up being one of the most charming and memorable ones ever to a RPG. Mario was a character with a personality despite not speaking having any exposition.


I hope that some of you look forward to it. It will take a very long time to be fully written though. Again, I hope you do not feel too bad about this.

A short note though. Remember, Sakurai himself likes Geno, a distinction few other characters not already in Smash can attest to. The question of a third-party inclusion involves multiple parties, and Square-Enix in particular would be most interested in a character promoting current or upcoming products. Sephiroth, already one of the most iconic villains in gaming, is currently pertinent to Square-Enix due to the Final Fantasy VII remake that was recently release (as well as the likely follow ups to it). Through the eyes of Nintendo, Sephiroth sells Fighter Passes, while in the eyes of Square-Enix, Sephiroth in Smash sells the Final Fantasy VII remake series to Nintendo's audience.

I will have a lot more to say obviously when my collection of essays is written. I hope that some of you enjoyed what little I shared here.
 
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Fatmanonice

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Based on everything he knows, I would take this at face value. If Monster Hunter stuff happened it was significantly later because we know Min Min's "journey" started in the summer of 2019. With Sakurai saying all negotiations were completed by early January 2020, this doesn't exactly bode confidence. Heavily suggests that if Monster Hunter did happen, they're probably the last character.
 

MattX20

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View attachment 296722

Based on everything he knows, I would take this at face value. If Monster Hunter stuff happened it was significantly later because we know Min Min's "journey" started in the summer of 2019. With Sakurai saying all negotiations were completed by early January 2020, this doesn't exactly bode confidence. Heavily suggests that if Monster Hunter did happen, they're probably the last character.
So Fatman, going off our current speculation so far, are you leaning towards the remaining 3 of this pass being 3rd party picks? Currently, I'm looking at Koei Tecmo, Activision, and Bandai Namco and I'm not that confident in an additional 1st party rep
 

JoscarGamma

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View attachment 296722

Based on everything he knows, I would take this at face value. If Monster Hunter stuff happened it was significantly later because we know Min Min's "journey" started in the summer of 2019. With Sakurai saying all negotiations were completed by early January 2020, this doesn't exactly bode confidence. Heavily suggests that if Monster Hunter did happen, they're probably the last character.
I remember somebody mentioning a Capcom Rep was the last one to cross the finish line for this pass. I’m wondering if it was for this pass, or DLC after this pass
 
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NapoleonBeezwax

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i dont even see why people bother any more with capcom rep this and namco rep that. we have 3 chars left and out of the last 5 we have gotten only one of them was highly speculated by the smash fans before getting in

we are probobly getting 1 more expected character at maximum and i do think it will be between lloyd irving, crash bandicoot, and waluigi
 

cmbsfm

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I recall PapaGenos claiming he heard Jill/A RE character was planned but dropped from one of his sources. We have that ponytail model for Joker which some assume would’ve been Jill. Anyone else remember this?
 

TriggerX

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Could you imagine the licensing nightmare that is Sora? The negotiations with Disney for getting him in Smash must have been downright ludicrous...

Disney: "If you want Sora in Smash, then we want 3 cents wired to our Swiss bank accounts every time a Sora player wins an online match."

Sakurai: "You drive a hard bargain, but I think we could swing it..." (starts texting his team under the table: "Nerf Sora into the ground!")

Disney: "....but you have to make Sora good. We don't want to see any of this Little-Mac-with-a-keyblade nonsense."

Sakurai: "Hmmmm, I'll have to check with my superiors and get back to you on that." (deletes text, then starts again: "Scrub it, lads. We're boned."
I wouldn’t say Sora would be a licensing nightmare. Really it’s just a matter of getting Disney on board. And that’s about it.
And currently if you look at the credits of smash ultimate, there are a lot of prominent figures being credited for current work that also have ties to the kingdom hearts series. Nomura and Yoko Shimomura. That pretty much covers music and character design.
In addition to Seph I’m sure Square wouldn’t mind Sora joining the roster. 2022 is a big year for Kh, I would not be surprised if he were the last character added to ultimates roster.

I know I'm opening a can of worms by going into this topic but the narrative is, AT LEAST FOR THE FIRST ROUND OF NEGOTIATIONS, things went terribly. Depending on who you ask, people have responded with different explanations to why negotiations went mammaries skyward:

-Disney wanted too much (most common explanation)

-Disney wanted the Disney characters to have a presence with Sora. Nintendo wasn't cool with that and didn't want their characters to "compete" with bigger cultural icons like Mickey Mouse.

-Disney made ridiculous demands that neither Nintendo or Square were cool with. One of my guys claimed last year that Disney was wanting things like Frozen song remixes instead of actual Kingdom Hearts' music and it rubbed everyone the wrong way.
Sounds like nobody knows how the negotiations went if there are many different explanations.

I could see Disney wanting too much for Sora initially , but then again who knows. They constantly loan out their characters to Epic for Fortnite, as well as Wreck it Ralph for that racing game. Brave Exvius? (Not sure if that’s the title exactly) continues to use Kh material without Disney characters.

I’m not doubting negotiations weren’t smooth sailing from the jump, but I could easily see Sora showing up as the last character in the pass. Only time will tell, but I don’t necessarily believe Seph killed his chances as much as Geno.

Geno is a weird case though, I believe his smash demand is there. Personally I think he won’t be promoted unless there is some kind of bonus pass or characters after fp2 is finished. Seems like characters have at least been decided up to Fighter Pass 2 quite awhile back so that’s why I believe Geno was never intended as a full fledged fighter, but could be with continued support.

While I don’t think Nintendo hates Geno, I do believe that there is a very specific reason why they don’t use their resources to develop him into a full character. Hate to throw a character under the bus, but Byleth over Geno? Byleth over anybody that’s not from Fire Emblem doesn’t make much sense to me as far as fan demand goes.

Overall I’m very curious as to what that reason may be. My suspicion has been that developing any new Smrpg games with him wouldn’t generate enough money to be worth the costs of using the ip since you’d have to potentially split the profits between 2 parties.
Nintendo is pretty tight lipped on development costs of its games, so it’s hard to say.

Basically If it’s considered a AAA title maybe development costs are around 100 million potentially. Looking at past paper Mario titles maybe they push 2.5 million copies so they make about 150 million. Split between square, each company ends up with 25 mill if they end up splitting development costs in half.

Overall if you look at past paper Mario titles and the Mario& Luigi series as a indication of how a new mario rpg game will do, the profit margins don’t seem worth the risk.

Going back to Geno in smash, and why this matters is simple.
The only reason I think he gets skipped over is because the future of Smrpg is too uncertain. And that’s why Geno is unique. Because as Fatmanonice has mentioned it’s nearly impossible for Nintendo or Square to use the series without the other’s involvement.

Sora’s situation is similar,but not the same. Sure he’s owned by Disney, but at the end of the day Sora can be used by Disney without square’s input. And unlike SMRPG, KH could potentially exist without the elements of Final Fantasy involved. From what I’ve read they go through Nomura out of courtesy, not due to legal implications. To me at least, that’s why Smrpg is in a way worst situation as far as licensing goes.

It’s a shame because SMRPG deserves to be remade. Hopefully with a AAA budget and a direction very similar to FF7 remake.
 

Fatmanonice

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I love how Imran just casually comes on the SmashEra thread and confirms some of my theories about Pass 1...
These past couple of days have been weirdly packed:

-Monster Hunter 90% out.

-Hero and Byleth were both probably meant to be base.

-Byleth was made from parts of a cut third party character.

-Confirmation that Sephiroth was decided in 2018.

-Apparently Sephiroth was part of some sort of deal but it didn't involve Hero.

-Heavily implied that if Capcom is happening it's late in the pass.
 

Icewolff92

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Byleth over anybody that’s not from Fire Emblem doesn’t make much sense to me as far as fan demand goes.
On top of that, there have been other Fire Emblem characters that have been requested for a long time too (Lyn, Black Knight, Hector, etc to give some big example) and I say this as a Byleth main him being part of my trio)xD
 
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Aerospherology

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These past couple of days have been weirdly packed:

-Monster Hunter 90% out.

-Hero and Byleth were both probably meant to be base.

-Byleth was made from parts of a cut third party character.

-Confirmation that Sephiroth was decided in 2018.

-Apparently Sephiroth was part of some sort of deal but it didn't involve Hero.

-Heavily implied that if Capcom is happening it's late in the pass.
Monster Hunter was cannibalized for Byleth.
oh crap

Geno was probably cannibalized for Mii Gunner. Who'll be cannibalized next?
 
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SpiritOfRuin

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In my quest to complete my English SMRPG Nintendo Power card collection, I came across some extras. I honestly just don't feel like getting up and getting pictures right now lol but I think I have Mario, Bowser, Booster, and Frogfucious. Frogfucious is damaged and Booster and Bowser have some small damage. I think Mario is ok. Anyway if you're interested. I can send free of charge just message me. First come first serve. Again no cost Merry Frickin Christmas.
 

MarioRaccoon

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I recall PapaGenos claiming he heard Jill/A RE character was planned but dropped from one of his sources. We have that ponytail model for Joker which some assume would’ve been Jill. Anyone else remember this?
Yes and would be hilarious that Nintendo/Sakurai first wanted a MH rep and couldn’t get the permission of their creators, but they still get Rathalos (maybe lt was Capcom suggestion), afterwards, they want a Resident Evil rep for FP1 but negotiations failed or Smash team had troubled with a moveset.

Finally, for FP2 they asked Capcom again and they suggested .... or maybe they didn’t talked to them hahaha.
 

RSF-Blue bomber

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Geno's one of those weird unique cases where he's basically worthless to both companies unless they work together. Nintendo can't legally use him without Square because Square actually holds the rights but Square can't legally use him outside the context of a Mario/Nintendo game so they would have to significantly change him to use him in anything else but, at that point,why not just create an original character like Bleno or something?
I just wanted to say I got the reference of Bleno lol. man that was a funny video
 

Serenade01

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How many times did I say "idk what Monster Hunter brings to the table that Byleth didn't already". The "Serenade is vindicated" book is getting more use in the past few days than my entire life.

Like, bruh. The up b screams the new Monster Hunter bug grapple thing repurposed and reskinned. Capcom probably was ****ing late to the table with this latest entry and Nintendo had to real quick figure out who was gonna replace that and they went for a god damned Fire Emblem character. This really do be a lmao moment.
 

QQS

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8DFEAE76-5D8A-46BF-A0C8-BAE03B413DB5.jpeg


Credit to Artist.

I think this render of Geno looks more than Sheik than actual real Geno, because the scarf, hat and only one eye visible. I said Sheik because the spirit in WoL.

Hope they upgrade Geno to playable. I think it’s very plausible and I still feel it’s very suspicious the 2 songs takedown, the mod takedown, the Sakurai previous recognition, the Sakurai new Culex post, the fan demand already fulfilled, what Geno means to Smash, and there is no way they can just recycle the old costume and don’t do any more stuff or at least some words. It’s good for us maybe that Geno wasn’t deluxe costume because in that way the chances of playable would be 0. Now given that he is just a recycled costume, they can perfect add a Fighter Geno and have both the Mii and the Fighter, just like many fighters. Maybe like a Bonus or 79 or 81 or FP1.

The design is pretty, the moveset perfect/fun/fresh, the songs epic and the history about SMRPG is iconic. Geno can still be playable, and Nintendo makes their own rules if they want an Assist upgrade or Mii upgrade in the same installment, just like they did with Min Min.

After everyone that needs to happen before Geno for business reasons make it in, they can give us Geno as a gift for our insane fan demand and also more easy money for them.

GENO AWAKENS!

EDIT: numbers.
 
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RetrogamerMax

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So I talked to xenother xenother awhile back in a DM:


He told me he heard from one of his sources that they were on Chun-Li during base game but scrapped her due to time constraints and not finding a satisfying enough moveset in time. Correct me if I'm wrong Fatmanonice Fatmanonice , but did you said if xenother was credible or not at one point? I heard someone bring this up to him in this thread and I talked about it with him in the DM and him telling me exactly what that other guy was saying what he heard.
 
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Paraster

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A weird thought that occurred to me: of all the fighters to get a Mr. Sakurai Presents, the Square Enix reps Hero and Cloud are the only ones whose movesets are shown off on Battlefield.

Banjo & Kazooie, Terry, Byleth, Min Min, and Steve all were demonstrated on their respective stages, while Hero and Sephiroth's stages weren't shown until their respective "stage showcase" segments.

It's probably meaningless, but the fact that it's ONLY the SE characters this happened to makes me think there's some obscure, specific reason.
 

TooManyToastahs

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Hey guys, I’m back and I’ve rebranded (You’ve served me well, Geno eating pancakes. Now it’s time for your successor... Geno eating a burger! Made by jpsupper). Took a short break, collected my thoughts, and decided to stick around just for fun.

Speaking of fun, here’s some interesting and somewhat off topic trivia I discovered recently: Exor’s body is actually rendered into his battle background itself, while his eyes and mouth (Which his mouth by the way is called “neosquid” for... Some reason) are individual objects you can attack in game.
F0933EE5-F886-4D72-B8CD-3F1D47DEE0A8.png
It’s kinda spooky seeing a faceless Exor. Knowing that there’s supposed to be eyes and a mouth on this giant sword makes this image feel... Wrong.

Anyways that was my pointless trivia of the day. It was really fun writing this post up honestly. If you guys like this kinda stuff and would like me to share more random SMRPG trivia then let me know, I’d be more than happy to oblige.
 
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RetrogamerMax

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Why are we giving up on Geno? He's not joining in Ultimate but that doesn't mean he won't be in Smash 6 or any future Smash game.
I'm not giving up for Geno in Ultimate until the DLC cycle is over as the "No DLC Mii costume can't get promoted" is just a fan rule that isn't broken yet.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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Dear Geno thread,

The Smashboards Administrative/Moderation Team has decided to close the Geno Support Thread. This wasn't a decision made lightly by our team and one we took very seriously due to the implications that come with closing such an active and dedicated support thread. This isn’t a situation unique to Geno and has been done in the past including the Smash 4 Ridley thread and Smash 4 Leak thread (both remained closed), as well as Ultimate's Waluigi thread (allowed to reopen 7 months after closing).

We understand that a good number of the thread regulars abided by the site rules and we greatly appreciated that. We also sought to prevent continued abuse by outside provocateurs who joined the site purely to troll/harass the thread regulars. We understand people may be surprised, alarmed, and angered by this decision but this is one the staff stands by. *There were many factors that led to the thread closure but it wasn’t solely due to recent issues and problems that arose following the Game Awards but, rather, continuous and repeated issues that violated the Terms of Service that persisted since the launch of Ultimate. This wasn’t an overnight decision for the staff and has been the subject of discussion between staff members for some time. We also want to stress that this closure is not the result of Geno’s apparent deconfirmation and this had zero influence on our decision.

If you wish to contact, make a complaint, or argue on behalf of the thread to the staff, you can do so via
Help from a Smashboards Moderator or Help from a Smashboard’s Admin. We appreciate all feedback, criticism, and complaints. Please note that making a new Geno thread will result in a thread closure and, depending on the circumstances, a warning. This also includes other users/anti-Geno users trolling/flaming the closure of the thread and targeting the thread regulars.

**As mentioned before, we appreciate any feedback as this helps us proceed further and helps us make decisions that benefits both the Geno and greater Smash community. I cannot comment at this time if the Geno thread will reopen but I wouldn’t put it entirely out of the realm of possibility. Please check this thread in the future for any new posts in regards to this ongoing development.

Thank you for taking the time to read this

Sincerely,

The Smashboards Administrative and Moderation Staff

*Edited for further clarification on the thresd closure
**Added further details regarding potential future developments and information
 
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