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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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Firox

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I know I'm opening a can of worms by going into this topic but the narrative is, AT LEAST FOR THE FIRST ROUND OF NEGOTIATIONS, things went terribly. Depending on who you ask, people have responded with different explanations to why negotiations went mammaries skyward:

-Disney wanted too much (most common explanation)

-Disney wanted the Disney characters to have a presence with Sora. Nintendo wasn't cool with that and didn't want their characters to "compete" with bigger cultural icons like Mickey Mouse.

-Disney made ridiculous demands that neither Nintendo or Square were cool with. One of my guys claimed last year that Disney was wanting things like Frozen song remixes instead of actual Kingdom Hearts' music and it rubbed everyone the wrong way.
Yeah, cuz that's what Smash needs—a new remix of "Let it go".
 

PlasmaDam

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Im pretty sure terry didnt have alot of people who were mad about him it was mostly the fgc laughing at the smash scene for not being able to understand terry button inputs when they arent that hard
 

AceAttorney9000

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Im pretty sure terry didnt have alot of people who were mad about him it was mostly the fgc laughing at the smash scene for not being able to understand terry button inputs when they arent that hard
There's that, but there's also the not-so-small amount of people who apparently never heard of SNK and their fighting games, and by extension didn't know who Terry was, resulting in the terms "literally who" and "Hat Ken" being thrown around a lot. Even if most of those people weren't mad, Terry's inclusion didn't exactly make them happy either.

Reminder, we're taking your logic of "Geno shouldn't be playable because his inclusion wouldn't make a lot of people happy" and applying it to another character. If you think Terry's a perfectly fine choice despite the mixed reaction to him, then surely you'd think Geno would be perfectly fine as well...
 

NapoleonBeezwax

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Fatmanonice Fatmanonice nintendo didnt upgrade a spirit because people wanted them to, when most people asked for spirit upgrades they asked for soemthing like geno, rayman, bandana waddle dee, or shantae. it is more like nintendo simply wanted min min than wanted to upgrade a spirit. you are drawing Wrong conclusions from this
 

PlasmaDam

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There's that, but there's also the not-so-small amount of people who apparently never heard of SNK and their fighting games, and by extension didn't know who Terry was, resulting in the terms "literally who" and "Hat Ken" being thrown around a lot. Even if most of those people weren't mad, Terry's inclusion didn't exactly make them happy either.

Reminder, we're taking your logic of "Geno shouldn't be playable because his inclusion wouldn't make a lot of people happy" and applying it to another character. If you think Terry's a perfectly fine choice despite the mixed reaction to him, then surely you'd think Geno would be perfectly fine as well...
I meant about Geno rights hell why go to the effort for him but then again you proving the mii custome made sense so i guess they thought somebody else would be better
 

Urso_Ornitier

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So they all the reintroduced 3rd parties are coming back as fighters? Tails, Mega Man X, Geomon,Sans, Cuphead, Rabbid etc are all confirmed are they?
Nope. Never said that. Not even eluded to that.

You asked why they would put the Geno mii backand make him a fighter.

I said they may be putting all the previous Mii outfits back from previous games. Which would explain why a mii costume for Geno would be back and then they could release him as a fighter.

When did I say all mii outfits will be fighters?
 

AceAttorney9000

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I meant about Geno rights hell why go to the effort for him but then again you proving the mii custome made sense so i guess they thought somebody else would be better
Because as I said in an earlier post, Geno's "rights hell" issues aren't as big of an obstacle as you think...
Geno's already in the game as a spirit and now a Mii Costume, so licensing the character in general shouldn't be too difficult,
 

Fatmanonice

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Fatmanonice Fatmanonice nintendo didnt upgrade a spirit because people wanted them to, when most people asked for spirit upgrades they asked for soemthing like geno, rayman, bandana waddle dee, or shantae. it is more like nintendo simply wanted min min than wanted to upgrade a spirit. you are drawing Wrong conclusions from this
That's kind of the bigger takeaway though. They didn't care that Min Min was a spirit, they just wanted her playable, and that will be the same case for any Mii costume and assist trophy upgrades. Considering the miles of red tape they've had to chainsaw through to get characters like Hero and Steve (5 YEARS, man!), someone like Waluigi would be a walk in the park.
 

ForsakenM

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I brought this comparison up months ago but my time as a Geno fan has very much mirrored my time as a fan of Skullomania of the Street fighter EX games. Both debuted within a couple years of one another, both are victims of circumstance being characters created for one-off cooperations between studios with legally split rights, and both are very popular despite their lack of appearances. Skullomania like Geno hasn’t appeared in a mainline game since the early 00s despite loads of requests from fans.

In a 2018 poll of all Street Fighter characters Skullomania got 16th beating out popular series mainstays like Fei Long, Guile, Rose, and C. Viper. SF EX is s series that has a lot of fans with people lobbying for the Arika characters to reappear and other fans saying they probably haven’t even played the game said characters are from. Sound familiar yet? And for all of SFV’s lifespan people have been asking for him as DLC. The lead developer of the SF series even addressed the popularity of getting Skullo into SFV and specifically said the rights issues are much more complicated than people assume while not straight out saying it’d never happen.

And now at the end of SFVs lifespan when people were really thinking he was a contender for final dlc character they just recently revealed he’d by a costume for another character. Hmmmmmmm sound familiar?? And you know what? I think at this point fir Geno like Skullomania it’s a combination of QA at Nintendo being averse to RPG characters reappearing, and the legal issues around SMRPG. If it weren’t for the legal red tape both of these characters would have returned by now. I think it will take Nintendo buying out the rights to SMRPG or them jointly working on an SMRPG game with SE to bring Geno back in a significant way. Until then it’s just going to take a huge effort from fans to show they love the character in the in-between years so his popularity isn’t forgotten by Nintendo.
Well, you KINDA forgot about Fighting EX Layer, which is all about specifically the unique characters owned by that company from the SFEX series, in which Skullomania was a huge reveal at EVO.

So, if Geno was JUST like Skullomania, it would be more like Geno getting in an RPG made by Square that focuses on just the OG SMRPG characters but in a totally different setting and with some brand new mechanics mixed with very familiar ones, and THEN Geno's costume coming to Smash...

Although a better comparison would be a Geno outfit in Mario Odyssey or a cameo in Origami King, but I digress.

This isn't a perfect 1:1 scenario.
 

NapoleonBeezwax

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Fatmanonice Fatmanonice to be honest i am a worried about a fan requested character getting in to pass 2 at this point we already have three characters, none were requested by fans that much (steve was but only recently, when he was decided on 5yrs ago people hated the idea of him in smash) i think they are just trying to add big characters to the game rather than please fans, so it really isnt looking good for waluigi if we go by what pass 2 has had so far, they killed geno without a second thought it seems like they dont care for fan requested characters this pass at all, which is why i am skeptical of waluigis chances at this point. its not because hes an assist trophy, its because nintendo might just not care about him right now
 

Wazygoose

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I’m a Geno fan and have been here a long time. But I do think the Mii costume is the nail in the coffin.

Could someone who is also a long time thread-goer please sum up why this isn’t the end? If they were going to have him be a fighter, why not have the costume in his own release? Wouldn’t it be scummy to sell a costume first and the fighter a few months later? If all Mii costumes are on the table, why is Geno at the top?

Like yes it’s theoretically possible, and I understand holding out with even a sliver of hope, but does anyone think it’s realistic? I just cannot see it happening now, it doesn’t make sense to release him as a costume first then a fighter later.
 

G0nard

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-Disney made ridiculous demands that neither Nintendo or Square were cool with. One of my guys claimed last year that Disney was wanting things like Frozen song remixes instead of actual Kingdom Hearts' music and it rubbed everyone the wrong way.
Okay okay not gonna lie I got a good laugh at that point
 

Serenade01

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I’m a Geno fan and have been here a long time. But I do think the Mii costume is the nail in the coffin.

Could someone who is also a long time thread-goer please sum up why this isn’t the end? If they were going to have him be a fighter, why not have the costume in his own release? Wouldn’t it be scummy to sell a costume first and the fighter a few months later? If all Mii costumes are on the table, why is Geno at the top?

Like yes it’s theoretically possible, and I understand holding out with even a sliver of hope, but does anyone think it’s realistic? I just cannot see it happening now, it doesn’t make sense to release him as a costume first then a fighter later.
It isn't the end because it's not the final nail in the coffin.
Shock value.
Fan demand.
It's realistic because we live in a world where Sonic the Hedgehog punched Mario so hard he flew into Minecraft and Sephiroth showed up a few months later and burns down the battlefield every time he wins.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
 

Fatmanonice

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I’m a Geno fan and have been here a long time. But I do think the Mii costume is the nail in the coffin.

Could someone who is also a long time thread-goer please sum up why this isn’t the end? If they were going to have him be a fighter, why not have the costume in his own release? Wouldn’t it be scummy to sell a costume first and the fighter a few months later? If all Mii costumes are on the table, why is Geno at the top?

Like yes it’s theoretically possible, and I understand holding out with even a sliver of hope, but does anyone think it’s realistic? I just cannot see it happening now, it doesn’t make sense to release him as a costume first then a fighter later.
Can I just PM you later with my own basic reasoning? Things have actually quieted down and I'd rather not kick off another round of "OH GOD, THE GENO THREAD IS HOPE-POSTING AGAIN! IM GONNA... IM GONNA... FUOOOOOOOOOM!!!!"
 

SpiritOfRuin

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A Nintendo Kingdom Hearts with Geno as the protagonist? Consider my wallet yours Nintendo! But yeah it likely won't happen. I don't think Nintendo hates Geno or Mario RPGs I just think they struggle with risk which is odd for a company that championed the Wii and Wii U and finally got it right with the Switch. Nintendo has a habit of prioritizing creative innovation in ways that people don't expect opposed to what people actually need, find useful, or would prefer. Sometimes that innovation pays off. Sometimes it doesn't. It's pretty clear that FP2 so far are safe choices. U would consider Hero and Joker safe choices as well as there's a large fandom for these characters. Terry may have been seen as safe since they may have believed the FGC and Smash community overlapped any significant way. Obviously they just didn't care about Byleth. They clearly believed that Min Min was answering confusion over ARMS' absence in base with a fighter. Steve and Sephiroth are both huge. And Banjo oddly enough was the character Nintendo saw as a big risk that they weren't sure about sales for. That last point speaks volumes about Nintendo and what they see as safe and profitable. I wouldn't be surprised if SE had a similar outlook.

So basically Nintendo is aware of the demand for Geno so they go out of their way to put a homage to him in the last two Smash games despite how risky they likely view him as, despite any preconceived notions of a Mario character they did not create and does not fit their current direction for the RPGs he originated from, despite the fact that he does have very outspoken detractors, despite the fact that many other SE series may be more widely accepted. I think that says a lot to Nintendo and SE's credit that there is a spirit and Mii costume at all even if I myself am very critical of Nintendo and not terribly pleased with spirits and Mii costumes. Geno is pretty clearly an outlier in how they are approaching FP2 with very safe widely appealing characters. FP1 was much less safe overall but things could change in the next three characters in FP2. Even if the risk isn't all that's holding them back there's still the matter of...well Geno is kind of expected and wouldn't be that much of a surprise and Nintendo seems to value surprise much more than actually pleasing fans.

SE is clearly on board with Smash. However, as surmised before it's likely that SE only wants their characters as DLC for the revenue and not in base game. This I think is also a huge issue to Geno as he seems to fit the bill of a base game character more than DLC when his competition is FF, KH, Nier, etc from SE that have more broad appeal that DLC seems to aim for in Ultimate. It also doesn't help that we have no idea how well the costume sold in Sm4sh or will sell in Ultimate, what those sales numbers would even mean to Nintendo or SE (would high sales imply people are complacent with a costume thus eliminating the perceived need to add him as a fighter?), what the ballot results really were and how well Geno did overall, etc. Overall, I think there's a lot holding Geno back. Not just Nintendo and it's issues. Not just SE and it's issues. Not this fanbase and it not doing enough. It's a culmination a great many factors that converge to eternally **** us. And this is why we need to be very clear as Geno's outspoken fanbase what we want and what we are pushing for and ultimately answer this question that detractors love to ask: "why Geno?"
 

Firox

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we live in a world where Sonic the Hedgehog punched Mario so hard he flew into Minecraft
You, Sir, have just earned yourself "Internet quote of the day". The fact that this actually happened multiplies the hilarity by a factor of 10.

Mario: "Hey, Sonic, you think next time you could punch me all the way back to Star Road?"
 

RetrogamerMax

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This is why I really wish Nintendo would just buy him and mallow outright on their own
I wish. But that's just a pipedream that will never come true. Nintendo might allow Geno in the Smash roster someday, but they will likely never buy his rights or SMRPG's rights as a whole because the ALMIGHTY ALL KNOWING corporate overheads won't think it's beneficial to Nintendo. It really sucks, but that's the reality of it.
 

Wazygoose

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Can I just PM you later with my own basic reasoning? Things have actually quieted down and I'd rather not kick off another round of "OH GOD, THE GENO THREAD IS HOPE-POSTING AGAIN! IM GONNA... IM GONNA... FUOOOOOOOOOM!!!!"
Thanks, I’d be grateful. I usually can put myself in others’ shoes but I’m confused this time.
 

Fatmanonice

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Don't worry.I’m doing enough hope posting for everybody!
People don't seem to mind when other Geno fans do it but when I do it I'm the cult leader with phenomenal cosmic powers (but eety beety posting space)... This is why Awkwah Awkwah can go **** himself. **** YOU for people respecting you enough and being allowed to say "I'm waiting things out" without getting tagged by like 20 people who just "can't even" with that stance. 🎃
 

Fatmanonice

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I've known you a little over a year now and the fact our relationship is very "Bugs Bunny - Daffy Duck" kind of kills me. Meanwhile, my relationship with Papagenos is very " Daffy Duck - Porky Pig" so, in a cosmic sense, I guess it balances out.
 

Awkwah

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I've known you a little over a year now and the fact our relationship is very "Bugs Bunny - Daffy Duck" kind of kills me. Meanwhile, my relationship with Papagenos is very " Daffy Duck - Porky Pig" so, in a cosmic sense, I guess it balances out.
Sometimes I chuckle thinking my first interaction with you was a really stupid ban in a discord
 

MamaLuigi123456

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Completely off-topic since I've never really been given an opportunity to talk about this, but whenever I hear fan interpretations for what Geno's victory theme would be like, almost all of them are the battle victory fanfare, with maybe a loop sort of like Cloud's or Joker's. Personally, I've always preferred if it was the Star Piece get music. Remixed (preferably orchestrated) obviously.
Coincidentally I imagine this would be in the reveal trailer, it plays right as Geno's splash screen appears, then transitions to gameplay with either the battle theme or Beware the Forest Mushrooms playing.
 

G0nard

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Throughout this entire weekend I've had a lot of theories go through my head and with all the stuff that's been brought up I've actually been saying to myself "Wait a Minute we still have a chance" since there is a lot of unanswered questions and with that 2018 leak that was brought up did help me put some pieces together that makes the most sense...though sadly all we can do now is wait patiently (Either 2 months or 12 months) I'm glad that we're still fighting strong!

EDIT: FORGOT TO ADD THE PART WHERE I SAY "one of these days I will share my theories IN DETAIL but for now I still want to piece some things together"
 
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TheBeastHimself

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It really be like that...
There's been at least 10 gamefaqs posts since the Sephiroth presentation with your name in the title. Stuff like "fatman still believes Geno is possible after the costume." Totally not trying to get you down or ruin your day, but I think this is stuff you deserve to know (some of which I'm sure you've seen for yourself.) There's one post I wanted to share with you in particular, which I believe sums up the gamefaqs attitude towards this thread in a nutshell:
fatman.PNG

I truly do not understand the obsession, the fascination. They depict themselves as these higher lifeforms watching us as if we're zoo animals. Fatman, even though they're mentioning you specifically in that post I don't believe they mean specifically you, but the collective Geno thread as a whole. We're a spectacle apparently. Like I said, I'm not mentioning this to kill your mood, but I really do think it's important.
 

SpiritOfRuin

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There's been at least 10 gamefaqs posts since the Sephiroth presentation with your name in the title. Stuff like "fatman still believes Geno is possible after the costume." Totally not trying to get you down or ruin your day, but I think this is stuff you deserve to know (some of which I'm sure you've seen for yourself.) There's one post I wanted to share with you in particular, which I believe sums up the gamefaqs attitude towards this thread in a nutshell:

I truly do not understand the obsession, the fascination. They depict themselves as these higher lifeforms watching us as if we're zoo animals. Fatman, even though they're mentioning you specifically in that post I don't believe they mean specifically you, but the collective Geno thread as a whole. We're a spectacle apparently. Like I said, I'm not mentioning this to kill your mood, but I really do think it's important.
Well since they like watching us so much I'm sure they will be happy to hear that Season 3 will be on DVD soon because we just won't quit.
 

Fatmanonice

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Throughout this entire weekend I've had a lot of theories go through my head and with all the stuff that's been brought up I've actually been saying to myself "Wait a Minute we still have a chance" since there is a lot of unanswered questions and with that 2018 leak that was brought up did help me put some pieces together that makes the most sense...though sadly all we can do now is wait patiently (Either 2 months or 12 months) I'm glad that we're still fighting strong!
I agree. That one 5chan post made sense of a lot of things especially "third parties don't want their characters to be just Smash characters." We've been asking ourselves since last spring when the SMRPG remake/remaster/rumor was still a Star Road secret if Square would hold off on Geno until the announcement of that and that post reminded me of those conversations. The answer is "Mmmmm, yeah..." If Hero was theoretically withheld from the base game to be released closer to the release of DQ XI S, I can definitely entertain Geno being withheld but the Mii costume being released just for the sake of completion/profit. Also, a thought that kind of made me grimace at work today: releasing the Geno Mii with an actual Geno would be kind of a dumb idea. If you wanted to get maximum profit from the Mii costume, release it first because most of fanbase would feel compelled to buy it because they want a consolation prize. Release them together and a vast majority of people are just going to skip out on it.

( Serenade01 Serenade01 screaming from the distance: "I'VE BEEN ARGUING THIS FOR MONTHS, YOU TWO TON ****!")

Of course, the rub is whether the SMRPG remake/remaster/sequel is real or not. If it yes, yeah... I could totally see Square and Nintendo pulling an Isabelle/Hero to promote it.
 

G0nard

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I agree. That one 5chan post made sense of a lot of things especially "third parties don't want their characters to be just Smash characters." We've been asking ourselves since last spring when the SMRPG remake/remaster/rumor was still a Star Road secret if Square would hold off on Geno until the announcement of that and that post reminded me of those conversations. The answer is "Mmmmm, yeah..." If Hero was theoretically withheld from the base game to be released closer to the release of DQ XI S, I can definitely entertain Geno being withheld but the Mii costume being released just for the sake of completion/profit. Also, a thought that kind of made me grimace at work today: releasing the Geno Mii with an actual Geno would be kind of a dumb idea. If you wanted to get maximum profit from the Mii costume, release it first because most of fanbase would feel compelled to buy it because they want a consolation prize. Release them together and a vast majority of people are just going to skip out on it.

( Serenade01 Serenade01 screaming from the distance: "I'VE BEEN ARGUING THIS FOR MONTHS, YOU TWO TON ****!")

Of course, the rub is whether the SMRPG remake/remaster/sequel is real or not. If it yes, yeah... I could totally see Square and Nintendo pulling an Isabelle/Hero to promote it.
My take on the situation is more or less "If we release the mii costume let's see the response" With Geno trending on Twitter that's a REALLY GOOD sign (Even bad publicity is GOOD publicity after all) However with this theory in mind it makes MORE sense for Geno to be the FINAL character rather then the NEXT cause they're most likely finishing up Seph (they probably did but as of right now I can't tell, I wanna see the PATCH NOTES!!) and THEN they'll be working on Geno
 
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♕Pretty Roger♕

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It isn't the end because it's not the final nail in the coffin.
Shock value.
Fan demand.
It's realistic because we live in a world where Sonic the Hedgehog punched Mario so hard he flew into Minecraft and Sephiroth showed up a few months later and burns down the battlefield every time he wins.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
I love how you counterargumented with "it's not the final nail in the coffin" and then ignored everything the post you were answering to said, such a deep TED talk. 🌝
 
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