is that really supposed to be a free grab?
I've been doing that for years because i thought it was a free downsmash if the IC goes for the grab. =/
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
I've been doing that for years because i thought it was a free downsmash if the IC goes for the grab. =/
choknater
Smash Obsessed
sometimes i can grab her after
but a lot of times i just retreat
but a lot of times i just retreat
Nintendude
Smash Hero
If I'm on point I can always get it provided I didn't get down-smashed at point blank range. Anyways, good job defeating me. I was definitely pretty salty about losing but I don't mean to discredit your win. I hope to play you again sometime.
You mean you can shieldgrab a peach that fairs>dsmash?
john!
Smash Hero
i think you can wd->shieldgrab if you shield the dsmash (since your low traction sends you sliding away after one or two dsmash hits)
you might be able to shieldgrab after he fair too because of two shields. it would be kinda risky tho
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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- 5,493
If a Peach downsmashes their shield, it is almost definitely a free grab (as long as they don't get shield stabbed).
Nintendude
Smash Hero
As others said, I meant that if I'm shielding and Peach down-smashes me, I should be able to wavedash out of shield -> grab. The only time this doesn't work is if the down-smash hits my shield more than 2 (possibly 3) times before I get pushed out of range.
Binx
Smash Master
Whats the timing? lightshield the dsmash and wavedash as soon as it ends?
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I don't even lightshield, but yeah I just wavedash as soon as I'm out of shield lag.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
So, I'm thinking about switching back to ICs potentially as a main. The biggest thing holding me back right now (aside from how much fun Falco is when you're in control), is how playing ICs kinda forces your opponent to play campy. Can I get any tips on how to deal with lame play-styles, aside from "just get the lead"?
As of now I've been having a difficult time reliably approaching.
As of now I've been having a difficult time reliably approaching.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I know I've been putting it off forever, but I am setting a firm deadline of this Friday for putting out that ICs guide. I have a very thorough outline set-up; I just need to fill in the details and come up with a bunch of examples.
Also, in the case of so-so Peach players, there's no shame in resorting to a secondary if you really just don't get what's going wrong. In my case, for example, while I no longer plan on using my secondaries against very good Peaches in singles since they are way too one-dimensional, I still will go Sheik against lesser ones since the match-up requires considerably less precision and I'm less likely to get severely punished for simple flubs. I do recall that at least as of a few years ago, you were a very versatile player. While I can't fault you for wanting to always go ICs since I generally feel the same way, it's good to keep in mind that there's nothing wrong with using another character if it'll increase your chances at success, especially in a high-stakes tourney set.
I hope you don't mind unsolicited and obvious-sounding advice, but I want to emphasize something. Never accept "I played like an idiot" as a reason for losing. The biggest part of being a good player is playing well (cheers for borderline tautologies), and if you occasionally find yourself inexplicably not living up to your usual standards, then there is something you are doing wrong. It's really important to understand why this happens, or at least be able to recognize when it happens and immediately reverse that trend. Doing something as simple as making a mental note like "I'm playing poorly, snap out of it and resume being reasonable" can help.
Also, in the case of so-so Peach players, there's no shame in resorting to a secondary if you really just don't get what's going wrong. In my case, for example, while I no longer plan on using my secondaries against very good Peaches in singles since they are way too one-dimensional, I still will go Sheik against lesser ones since the match-up requires considerably less precision and I'm less likely to get severely punished for simple flubs. I do recall that at least as of a few years ago, you were a very versatile player. While I can't fault you for wanting to always go ICs since I generally feel the same way, it's good to keep in mind that there's nothing wrong with using another character if it'll increase your chances at success, especially in a high-stakes tourney set.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Choknater, after watching Wobbles vs. Darc it seems that your view on the Puff match-up only holds true for more defensive Puffs.
What do you think?
What do you think?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Nintendude
Smash Hero
One of the things I struggle with most as a player is inconsistency. Usually it's technical inconsistency, in which I go into phases where I'm missing short hops and dropping every grab combo, but occasionally it's mental inconsistency and for one reason or another I fail to play my game. What happened vs. Ambix (and also Wenbo but I still beat him) is a combination of both. I'm not sure what triggers it but it might have been that I was shaken up by getting placed in a 2-Peach pool and just got 2-0'd by MacD, since prior to that I hadn't dropped a single game. Although, it's worth mentioning that I really don't play the game that often - like once a month during the semester - and that playing more often would probably make me more consistent.
I was considering going Sheik vs. Ambix but I didn't for several reasons. 1) I lost game 1 by a small margin and I thought that I had adapted enough to easily win game 2 on my counterpick, 2) He plays with silentswag and is probably really rehearsed in the matchup, and 3) My Sheik doesn't perform well vs. my friend's Peach (and he's probably somewhere around Ambix's level).
Prior to round 1 pools I was in a friendlies rotation with Tai, tirno, and Sol and had another bout of inconsistency. I kept losing to Tai and was barely squeeking out wins vs. tirno and Sol and just knew that I was not playing well at all. I was kind of annoyed since my round 1 pool was going to be starting soon so I decided the best thing to do was take a break and just spectate for awhile. This actually worked and I performed great during my first pool. Unfortunately I can't just take a break in the middle of a tournament set though.
I was considering going Sheik vs. Ambix but I didn't for several reasons. 1) I lost game 1 by a small margin and I thought that I had adapted enough to easily win game 2 on my counterpick, 2) He plays with silentswag and is probably really rehearsed in the matchup, and 3) My Sheik doesn't perform well vs. my friend's Peach (and he's probably somewhere around Ambix's level).
Prior to round 1 pools I was in a friendlies rotation with Tai, tirno, and Sol and had another bout of inconsistency. I kept losing to Tai and was barely squeeking out wins vs. tirno and Sol and just knew that I was not playing well at all. I was kind of annoyed since my round 1 pool was going to be starting soon so I decided the best thing to do was take a break and just spectate for awhile. This actually worked and I performed great during my first pool. Unfortunately I can't just take a break in the middle of a tournament set though.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
grim: i could tell just one minute in that wobbles doesn't apply my theory
i play the match way different than any other ic so i wanna test it against pro puffs myself haha
ill watch the rest of the match though. i can just say already that wobbles was wding toward too much. let's see if he changes it up
i play the match way different than any other ic so i wanna test it against pro puffs myself haha
ill watch the rest of the match though. i can just say already that wobbles was wding toward too much. let's see if he changes it up
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Yep, you have to train a lot more to be consistent and a tournament this caliber increases the pressure you feel in general, you aren't the only one lol.. just look how many top players got owned early.. =/ For me in this tournament, I wasn't able to summon the "fire" where I had to because I got too nervous or something... At all the RoMs I felt it often during my matches but in a bigger tournament it seems harder to keep cool.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i just finished watching wobbles darc
wobbles is hella random, and his aggressiveness worked out for him but i promise you my defensive wall vs puff is freaking airtight
wobbles is hella random, and his aggressiveness worked out for him but i promise you my defensive wall vs puff is freaking airtight
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Shoutouts to Nintendude for beating me in my pool
We should play more so I can learn how to not camp super mega hardcore in that matchup <_<
We should play more so I can learn how to not camp super mega hardcore in that matchup <_<
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Chok, can you summarize your style again so I don't make any mistakes with what I'm about to say? lol
choknater
Smash Obsessed
basically i like to roll away and nana blizzard. unless puff was like right next to your shield, she is too slow to punish roll away
from there i just to blizzard + popo ice blocks, until puff tries to do something. if she comes from above i can uair, or maneuver popo to the other side and desynch more. if she runs into the blizz i can fsmash or grab or just keep ice blocking.
basically since puff's strongest moves are bair and fair, i use the roll away desynch into nana blizzard to nullify those two moves. this forces her to do other stuff and everything else that she has is mad weak.
i also use dair a lot because it combos into itself on puff, and it keeps puff close when i want her to be. it comes out faster than puffs aerials which is why i use it at close range.
puff has a perfect range vs ic's... close to their shield enough to punish a roll away, and also prevent WD toward. WD toward is ic's main approach tool vs every other character but is really really bad vs puff because you run into bair. (this is also why ic's lose to peach lol.) ic's lose wd toward but they gain everything else vs puff.
just gotta avoid getting separated or getting hit by a random utilt. i really try not to hold my shield out, if i'm holding shield, i'll just try to roll in a direction that puff can't punish
i'm gonna practice this strat with bluefoxxt because i think he's the best puff in norcal now, or at least in certain matchups. hyuga was pretty free to this so i'll try it against bluefoxxt
with mango no longer going puff, the only other person i wanna try this against is hungrybox himself
i hope that description was pretty good. i know it's kinda hard to imagine and it sounds gimmicky, but i feel that it really works. basically there were like 30 times in the wobbles match where i said to myself "i would've done something better." haha he got some good hits in being aggressive but vs puff, some risks don't even need to be taken. he lots to hbox at apex, didn't he?
from there i just to blizzard + popo ice blocks, until puff tries to do something. if she comes from above i can uair, or maneuver popo to the other side and desynch more. if she runs into the blizz i can fsmash or grab or just keep ice blocking.
basically since puff's strongest moves are bair and fair, i use the roll away desynch into nana blizzard to nullify those two moves. this forces her to do other stuff and everything else that she has is mad weak.
i also use dair a lot because it combos into itself on puff, and it keeps puff close when i want her to be. it comes out faster than puffs aerials which is why i use it at close range.
puff has a perfect range vs ic's... close to their shield enough to punish a roll away, and also prevent WD toward. WD toward is ic's main approach tool vs every other character but is really really bad vs puff because you run into bair. (this is also why ic's lose to peach lol.) ic's lose wd toward but they gain everything else vs puff.
just gotta avoid getting separated or getting hit by a random utilt. i really try not to hold my shield out, if i'm holding shield, i'll just try to roll in a direction that puff can't punish
i'm gonna practice this strat with bluefoxxt because i think he's the best puff in norcal now, or at least in certain matchups. hyuga was pretty free to this so i'll try it against bluefoxxt
with mango no longer going puff, the only other person i wanna try this against is hungrybox himself
i hope that description was pretty good. i know it's kinda hard to imagine and it sounds gimmicky, but i feel that it really works. basically there were like 30 times in the wobbles match where i said to myself "i would've done something better." haha he got some good hits in being aggressive but vs puff, some risks don't even need to be taken. he lots to hbox at apex, didn't he?
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- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Why do you guys like FoD, by the way? It seems that ICs CP there a fair amount...
D
Deleted member
Guest
ic's + hammers + small stage + can't be approached from above = gayness abound
voorhese
Smash Master
FoD should be banned =P it's a STUPID stage lolol
also FoD is banned in dubs cuz with 4 characters on screen, it gets laggy....the way i see it, in singles, you can have IC dittos...thats like dubs, slight lag. BAN IT!
also FoD is banned in dubs cuz with 4 characters on screen, it gets laggy....the way i see it, in singles, you can have IC dittos...thats like dubs, slight lag. BAN IT!
Hella random and aggressive pretty much sums up my playstyle yes.
Binx
Smash Master
OMG WOBBLES! you're back! WHOOOOO!
Can't wait to see more of your games from Apex, so fun to watch ^_^
Can't wait to see more of your games from Apex, so fun to watch ^_^
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Only nonsense can beat random. lol.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
tested and proven. this is why i love melee lol
S l o X
Smash Champion
can't wait for fly's guide.
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
I'm excited too haha. One month of deep philosophical calculations ready to be shown.
Chok, do you have any vids of you and your tight walling?
Chok, do you have any vids of you and your tight walling?
Binx
Smash Master
Anyone have any theories on high level ICs vs Falco, I was watching wobbles vs dr pp and I have a lot of the same experiences when I play falco's obviously our game isn't quite as tight but it goes down in a very, very similar way.
I feel like he has really safe shield pressure options, and ICs can't really powershield like a lot of characters can, I never saw wobbles try any sort of ice block or blizzards into the lazers to put on pressure in the way, but once Nana dies it really seems hopeless vs falco, my strategy right now is just to run away and hope falco does an attack with some lag so I can try to tech chase and get him off stage, but even then he has some really good recovery options vs a sopo.
I feel like he has really safe shield pressure options, and ICs can't really powershield like a lot of characters can, I never saw wobbles try any sort of ice block or blizzards into the lazers to put on pressure in the way, but once Nana dies it really seems hopeless vs falco, my strategy right now is just to run away and hope falco does an attack with some lag so I can try to tech chase and get him off stage, but even then he has some really good recovery options vs a sopo.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
sry, not yet vs puff :\I'm excited too haha. One month of deep philosophical calculations ready to be shown.
Chok, do you have any vids of you and your tight walling?
i plan to play bluefoxxt soon but idk if we're gonna be able to record
I got caught in lasers and kept trying to start ice-block and blizzard counter-pressure but everything kept messing up for some reason 
Then I got super caught up in just going for blind hits without any kind of intelligent probing or baiting and he just got to hit me a bunch and **** me.
Truth be told though I really need to re-envision the Falco matchup because for the longest time it's felt like I win only as much as the Falco player messes up. I'm trying to work on more active anti-Falco technology rather than, "oh I sure hope I get this spacing right and he is off on his shine by a frame or two."
Right now my big things ideas are:
--Using lasers to de-sync into Nana blizzard + light-shield (so if he does approach he'll stall on the shield giving the blizzard time to start)
--Powershielding; you MUST dash into the laser if you want it not to hit Nana when you powershield. Not an issue if you're SoPo obviously.
--Tiny wavedashes. Perfect spacing tool w/ f-smash but so hard to really *see,* so I need to practice it.
--More implementing autocancel sh-uair, especially out of shield.
--At mid range where he's less likely to use a laser for fear of random WD->f-smashes, sh-bair autocancels to bait approaches. One sequence I'm practicing right now is a fading sh-bair -> f-tilt turn -> blizzard de-sync. It's a really inocuous setup for a blizzard that could encourage a short hop approach from him.
--Better maneuvering strategies around platforms which is really more of a general thing for me but if it helps, it helps.
You can CC his fresh d-tilt up to 38% and very easily grab him afterwards. WD->jab with the right spacing WON'T get CC shined but it will still get CC d-tilted, however if you cancel it with a crouch then you will automatically CC that tilt. If you're ready you can bait that whole sequence to land a free grab but it requires great spacing on the WD so you don't slide into that shine.
Well I've grinded out Falcon and Peach so I don't see why I can't do the same with Falco. Soon I'll run out of matchups I hate and then I'll just be like the best or something.
Then I got super caught up in just going for blind hits without any kind of intelligent probing or baiting and he just got to hit me a bunch and **** me.Truth be told though I really need to re-envision the Falco matchup because for the longest time it's felt like I win only as much as the Falco player messes up. I'm trying to work on more active anti-Falco technology rather than, "oh I sure hope I get this spacing right and he is off on his shine by a frame or two."
Right now my big things ideas are:
--Using lasers to de-sync into Nana blizzard + light-shield (so if he does approach he'll stall on the shield giving the blizzard time to start)
--Powershielding; you MUST dash into the laser if you want it not to hit Nana when you powershield. Not an issue if you're SoPo obviously.
--Tiny wavedashes. Perfect spacing tool w/ f-smash but so hard to really *see,* so I need to practice it.
--More implementing autocancel sh-uair, especially out of shield.
--At mid range where he's less likely to use a laser for fear of random WD->f-smashes, sh-bair autocancels to bait approaches. One sequence I'm practicing right now is a fading sh-bair -> f-tilt turn -> blizzard de-sync. It's a really inocuous setup for a blizzard that could encourage a short hop approach from him.
--Better maneuvering strategies around platforms which is really more of a general thing for me but if it helps, it helps.
You can CC his fresh d-tilt up to 38% and very easily grab him afterwards. WD->jab with the right spacing WON'T get CC shined but it will still get CC d-tilted, however if you cancel it with a crouch then you will automatically CC that tilt. If you're ready you can bait that whole sequence to land a free grab but it requires great spacing on the WD so you don't slide into that shine.
Well I've grinded out Falcon and Peach so I don't see why I can't do the same with Falco. Soon I'll run out of matchups I hate and then I'll just be like the best or something.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I have a recording set up Chok, lets make a session happen.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
choknater
Smash Obsessed
ahhh yesss let's do it!!!
then i can challenge HBOX to an MM and blow everyone up LOLOL. that's if my strategy continues to prove itself against bluefox
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
shmeargle: after a certain point in a move's animation (before it technically even ends) there is sometimes a window where you will just have no landing lag. To get an auto canceled SH-uair, you need to get the u-air within something like 2 or 3 frames after the short hop, and then don't fast fall at all.
It's nice because u-air is out for a majority of the time you're off the ground, and it out-prioritizes most aerials in this game. Also u-air has excruciatingly long landing lag (even with an l-cancel) compared to many other aerials, which makes the landing very punishable. The auto-cancel is much safer.
Plus you're practicing getting your u-air out immediately, which is a nice thing to be good at.
It's nice because u-air is out for a majority of the time you're off the ground, and it out-prioritizes most aerials in this game. Also u-air has excruciatingly long landing lag (even with an l-cancel) compared to many other aerials, which makes the landing very punishable. The auto-cancel is much safer.
Plus you're practicing getting your u-air out immediately, which is a nice thing to be good at.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Out-ranges is more accurate than out-prioritizes.
Binx
Smash Master
Eh semantics, same thing in this context.
VS Falco with Fox and Falcon and Marth which are some of my alts I've noticed there are some sweet spots you can get into vs Falco where if he jumps you can punish on reaction, specifically as fox you can often get a grab or full hop over a laser or even short hop based on laser height. It's about 3 - 3.5 falco character lengths I wanna say, maybe slightly less.
As ICs vs Falco though I haven't been able to get that same spacing to work for me, because the ICs aerial movement is so limited compared to the other characters I mentioned the lasers stay safe even at really close distances, something I've done that works is wavedashing into them with a fsmash, but it's not reactive at all and relies on a blind guess my opponent is doing a laser.
So right now I have three sets of strategies I use vs different tiers of players of all characters, and I kind of feel like im doing it wrong.
So people worse than me, I just kind of bait with shields and murder them when they eventually miss an l cancel or space a smash or aerial really poorly.
People about as good as me, I try to predict what I think they will do and choose a generally risky (IMO) option to punish it, it works out about 50% of the time and I win or I lose.
People better than me, I get completely ***** because they are either more technical or just way more intelligent than I can generally handle, players like SW fall into this category of player that just completely owns me in this way. I've been improving more and more I still feel like I haven't even made it to his mindgames yet because he is consistently technical enough to not even really need them vs me. Part of this is obviously my inexperience in the highest levels of the match up and I believe with enough experience I could learn the pacing enough to make the same types of guesses I do vs other players more my skill level.
I don't really like making guess or doing random stuff and just relying on my punish game to pull me through on other's mistakes though. I would really like to have some more solid ways to play the game. I think it's why I enjoy playing Fox and Falco so much as off characters because even when I don't really practice them they let you play kind of whatever style you want at the moment.
Eggz is moving to Portland soon though so I'm pretty excited to get some higher level practice soon and start stepping my game up, I really want to go to the next national in cali, whether it be genesis or whatever and when I go I really wanna make it out of pools.
edit: corrected some terrible grammar and spelling mistakes, I find it hard to believe english is my first language sometimes lols. Also wtf is up with me and essay length posts all the time.
VS Falco with Fox and Falcon and Marth which are some of my alts I've noticed there are some sweet spots you can get into vs Falco where if he jumps you can punish on reaction, specifically as fox you can often get a grab or full hop over a laser or even short hop based on laser height. It's about 3 - 3.5 falco character lengths I wanna say, maybe slightly less.
As ICs vs Falco though I haven't been able to get that same spacing to work for me, because the ICs aerial movement is so limited compared to the other characters I mentioned the lasers stay safe even at really close distances, something I've done that works is wavedashing into them with a fsmash, but it's not reactive at all and relies on a blind guess my opponent is doing a laser.
So right now I have three sets of strategies I use vs different tiers of players of all characters, and I kind of feel like im doing it wrong.
So people worse than me, I just kind of bait with shields and murder them when they eventually miss an l cancel or space a smash or aerial really poorly.
People about as good as me, I try to predict what I think they will do and choose a generally risky (IMO) option to punish it, it works out about 50% of the time and I win or I lose.
People better than me, I get completely ***** because they are either more technical or just way more intelligent than I can generally handle, players like SW fall into this category of player that just completely owns me in this way. I've been improving more and more I still feel like I haven't even made it to his mindgames yet because he is consistently technical enough to not even really need them vs me. Part of this is obviously my inexperience in the highest levels of the match up and I believe with enough experience I could learn the pacing enough to make the same types of guesses I do vs other players more my skill level.
I don't really like making guess or doing random stuff and just relying on my punish game to pull me through on other's mistakes though. I would really like to have some more solid ways to play the game. I think it's why I enjoy playing Fox and Falco so much as off characters because even when I don't really practice them they let you play kind of whatever style you want at the moment.
Eggz is moving to Portland soon though so I'm pretty excited to get some higher level practice soon and start stepping my game up, I really want to go to the next national in cali, whether it be genesis or whatever and when I go I really wanna make it out of pools.
edit: corrected some terrible grammar and spelling mistakes, I find it hard to believe english is my first language sometimes lols. Also wtf is up with me and essay length posts all the time.