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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Binx

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
shmeargle said:
Fly you could probably set like a time where you will be finished with one section at this time and then finish this section at another time, instead of saying something like I'll finish everything by this time. I'm not sure if this would appeal to you but it's a suggestion :]

Good luck at WGF!
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I have adhd and this has been suggested for dealing with that, probably a good move, I'm sure you've already worked on some of it though im sure it's fine lols =D

This game is so hard to theorize about its hard to have too much high level discussion, especially since there aren't really *that* many people who play. Hopefully the guide has a good mix of stuff for all skill levels =D maybe with vid examples? Which reminds me we need a video thread.
 
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I ended up doing really badly at WGF. I lost to Lucky in winners and Bizzarro Flame in losers. Lucky is by no means a bad loss (he ended up winning the tourney in spite of fierce competition and half a year of inactivity), but I lost really badly, which is not acceptable. Losing to Bizz in losers was weird and frustrating. Bizz is very good, but I still don't feel like ICs vs. Ganon is a match-up I should be losing provided I'm playing well. Like Peach, it's a match-up you can't afford to screw up in, and I made a few crucial tech errors and stratetic blunders that cost me severely. I think I already understand the match-up pretty well; I just need to keep my tech skill on point and my mind sharp.

As for the set against Lucky, I felt like my mind wasn't in a terrible place; I've had clearer days before, but I didn't feel like I wasn't processing information well (although my memory might be fooling me). I just made consistently bad judgment calls; I kept feeling like certain things should work (I went for lots of bad dash attacks, for example), yet they didn't. This isn't an issue with keeping my head straight, which as noted, I think it was, but just a display of poor strategic decision making, which I am disappointed about since I think I'm usually good at choosing an option that makes sense when I'm focused.

Instead of wallowing in self-pity, I'm going to reflect on the positives:

My overall consistency over the past couple years has improved dramatically. This tourney is the first time since around late 2010 at which I felt that I didn't uniformly live up to my usual standards. I think it's reasonable to assume that I'll continue to do fine overall and that whatever caused me to do poorly (in retrospect, probably ridiculous sleep deprivation) is very uncommon. Here's hoping for better future performances.

Binx said:
This game is so hard to theorize about its hard to have too much high level discussion, especially since there aren't really *that* many people who play. Hopefully the guide has a good mix of stuff for all skill levels =D maybe with vid examples? Which reminds me we need a video thread.
Click to expand...
The target audience for the guide is people who are at least somewhat well-acquainted with competitive Melee, but want to learn how to play ICs and are unsure of how to approach the character. I wouldn't describe it as being aimed at any particular skill class. Some of the information might still be nice even for people who have been playing the character for a while, although appealing to them isn't the goal since I think they can generally think for themselves and their issues probably revolve around lots of little situational data, mindset, and other very particular things, which is not the sort of thing this guide is intended to lay out (although there still will be lots of examples to drive points home).

I initially planned on the guide being strictly text since that is how I roll, but I might include some video examples. It might be hard to find clips of players displaying the sort of things I intend to discuss, especially since I don't watch videos very often, but including a few would be nice since precisely describing scenarios via text can be a pain.
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Well ya provided you play well.. Ganon vs ICs is obviously Ganon advantage, Ganon only needs one hit to start the chaos and with that you can do huge things to dominate ICs. That's one match-up where it feels like Ganon can actually pressure a character by repeatedly pummeling them while on other match-ups you can't really do that but rely on more reads.
 
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
Maybe. I'm not convinced it's far from even and I think how hard ICs can punish Ganon is comparable to how hard Ganon punishes ICs. It's probably a little easier for Ganon to land a really substantial hit, but I doubt significantly so. I'll admit that the whole "I don't feel like I should be losing this match-up" thing is likely just my ego raising its ugly head. I usually try to restrain it and keep it dead, but it still manages to show itself every now and then. Maybe that's another thing I can improve upon, although I think for the most part I'm good at not being full of myself.

edit: Yeah, I should have let that remark about the match-up die in my mind instead of posting it here. Cheers to poor judgment.
 
P

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
I think that Ganon vs ICs is bad until proven not bad. Once Kage/RockCrock start losing to equally skilled ICs EVER I'm afraid that it might be better in theory than is actually possible for the ICs.
 
S

shmeargle

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
83
Location
Socal in the Orange part of the OC
I wonder if a JC desynch grab followed by a dsmash by nana is useful. if someone spot dodges and you know that they are and use they would get hit right? Or is the desynch too slow for that to work? If the smash clanked w/ something like a shine for example then that would be a free grab for popo right?

Also for a desynched up b Oos iceblock is it possible to make popo move or is the animation for it too long?
 
Binx

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
hey guys I made a video thread, people should go post links there, I have trouble finding quality IC games.

@ Smea - I can't think of a desynch where you could just grab and have nana smash, all of the ones I can think of would take too long to set up, theoretically maybe a pivot desych could do that but even if you could do it perfectly and quickly enough for it to be useful I'm not sure you can even pivot a grab with nana taking no action, especially a jump canceled one. Secondly, if you could do it having nana grab after or fsmash would be better than dsmash, jumping would avoid both dsmash and grab, but not fsmash maybe.

For the iceblock question, Popo is in stun for a while during it, if it happened to bounce on the top of their shield and fall to hit them you might have barely enough time to do something useful but by no means would be inescapable.
 
S

shmeargle

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
83
Location
Socal in the Orange part of the OC
What I meant was in the case of missing a grab. I was just messing around w/ different kinds of desynchs. I'm pretty sure this was somehow thought up before. Like the grab desynch works like the roll and spot dodge desync only that its the result of missing a grab or an empty one. So yeah and thanks for clarifying the up b desynch.

:phone:
 
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Aug 24, 2007
Messages
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Location
Claremont, CA
If you can hit the opponent with a dsmash following the whiffed grab desynch, then you would also have enough time to just grab again with Popo. The second grab would land 7 frames after Popo's first grab ended if done perfectly, whereas a Nana dsmash would take at least 12 frames (6 frames due to Nana's jab ending 6 frames later than Popo's + 6 for the start-up of Nana's dsmash), and almost certainly notably more than that unless the opponent is right on top of you.
 
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
shmeargle said:
So that would also mean that adesynched jab by nana would be slower than popos regrab?
:phone:
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Yeah, that would be 3 frames slower than grabbing again. The time difference here is pretty small, although definitely not negligible, and if you have a hard time grabbing that quickly, going for the desynched jab is fine if you think either option will accomplish whatever you're going for.
 
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Messages
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Location
Claremont, CA
In the past few days, I've seen a Nana powershield a Luigi up-B and then KO him with fsmash, and now I see this. It looks like Nana's metagame has also improved a bit over the past ten years.
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
Wobbles said:
Is anybody still interested in creating a special Nana highlights video? After watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lKtF1jvMAo#t=6m40s happen my interest in such a project is rekindled.
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john! said:
watch me get destroyed by hunger's nana:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Fhzz-Jj5E&feature=player_detailpage#t=50s
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....screw this character. I mean really, why does Nana get to have a metagame?

I did see Admiral at Apex. Around Wobbles, I think (who I never played...). Interesting to see a female ICs mains (not a Sheik/Peach/Kirby/Marth).
 
the_irish_dude

the_irish_dude

SCG TO
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Mar 18, 2007
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OKC, OK
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So samus vs. Ics.... Not a Jack samus... More like a Gravity samus... Anything outa the norm I should work on? I haven't played in a few months and gotta get back into shape.

:phone:
 
S

Smasher89

Smash Lord
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Nov 4, 2005
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Sweden
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
Frame data:

by SuperDoodleMan

If you don't understand a term, look
it up in the Terminology txt
-------------------------------------
Second Ice Climber delayed by 6 frams
-------------------------------------
Hammer Swing

Total: 29
Hit: 4-7
Window of the backswing: 3-29
IASA: 16
Backswing starts: 14 (or later)
-------------------------------------
Backswing

Total: 29
Hit: 5-7
IASA: 18
-------------------------------------
F Tilt

Total: 31
Hit: 6-9
IASA: 28
-------------------------------------
D Tilt

Total: 34
Hit: 8-11
IASA: 29
-------------------------------------
U Tilt

Total: 49
Hit: 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21,
23-24, 26
IASA: 42
-------------------------------------
Dash attack

Total: 41
Hit: 11-12
IASA: 38
-------------------------------------
F Smash

Total: 47
Hit: 13-14
IASA: 47
Charge frame: 7
-------------------------------------
U Smash

Total: 49
Hit: 14-18
IASA: 44
Charge frame: 8
-------------------------------------
D Smash

Total: 39
Hit: 6-11
IASA: 36
Charge frame: 2
-------------------------------------
N-Air

Total: 49
Hit: 6-23
IASA: 46
Auto cancel: <5 30>
Landlag: 20
Lcanceled: 10
-------------------------------------
U-Air

Total: 39
Hit: 6-23
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: <5 27>
Landlag: 32
Lcanceled: 16
-------------------------------------
B-Air

Total: 39
Hit: 8-11
IASA: 36
Auto cancel: <7 19>
Landlag: 20
Lcanceled: 10
-------------------------------------
D-Air

Total: 65
Hit: 3-52
Auto cancel: <2 58>
Landlag: 25
Lcanceled: 12
-------------------------------------
F-Air

Total: 59
Hit: 19-22
IASA: 55
Auto cancel: <2 55>
Landlag: 20
Lcanceled: 10
-------------------------------------
Ledge stand <100%

Total: 34
Invincible: 1-30
-------------------------------------
Ledge stand 100%>

Total: 59
Invincible: 1-55
-------------------------------------
Ledge roll <100%

Total: 49
Invincible: 1-27
-------------------------------------
Ledge roll 100%>

Total: 79
Invincible: 1-56
-------------------------------------
Ledge attack <100%

Total: 54
Invulnerable: 1-23
Hit: 27-30
-------------------------------------
Ledge attack 100%>

Total: 69
Invulnerable: 1-35
Hit: 39-42
-------------------------------------
Ledge jump <100%

Total: 38
Invulnerable: 1-15
Soonest FF: 44
-------------------------------------
Ledge jump 100%>

Total: 47
Invincible: 1-19
Soonest FF: 49
-------------------------------------
Grab

Total: 30
Grab: 7-8
-------------------------------------
Running Grab

Total: 40
Grab: 7-8
-------------------------------------
Blizzard

Total: 79
Hitboxes appear every five frames
from 16 to 56
Each hitbox lasts 11 frames
Total hit window: 16-66
-------------------------------------
Ice Shot

Total: 59
Hammer hit: 15-20
Ice appears: 17
Ice lasts: 61 frames
-------------------------------------
Squall Hammer

Total: 89
Hit: 12, 14, 17, 20, 23, 27, 31, 35,
41, 47, 55
Landfallspeciallag: 4
-------------------------------------
Belay

Total: 89
Nana hits: 17-59
Nana invulnerable: 5-59
Nana becomes falling: 60
Only Popo total: 42
landfallspeciallag: 25
-------------------------------------

Jump: airborne on frame 4

Air time: 58
Earliest FF: 29
FF air time: 46

SH air time: 30
Earliest FF: 16
SH FF air time: 21

2nd jump earliest FF: 28
-------------------------------------

Air dodge
Invulnerable 4-29 out of 48

Ground dodge
Invulnerable 2-18 out of 27

Roll
Invulnerable 4-19 out of 31

Landing lag: 4 frames

Dash becomes run at frame 14
Turn-jump Threshold: 21
Run turnaround: 25






___________
final line


Hitbox thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285394
 
Fly_Amanita

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
Update: It looks like I'll be able to finish the guide right around the time the site blacks out, but since barely anybody would see it if I post it then and since I want to proofread it, I'm just going to post it after the site comes back up.
 
S

shmeargle

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
83
Location
Socal in the Orange part of the OC
Hey guys, I'm not really sure how to approach ganon if he keeps jumping. I was trying to look for the post about ganon but couldn't find it. He tanks a lot and I'm just having problems approaching him. If you could address my question then thanks guys.
 
Binx

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
Ganon is one of the few characters you can approach with upsmash, also you can use iceblocks and blizzards to force him to come to you sometimes.
 
choknater

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
fly's guide is pretty good

i guess i didn't learn anything new, but i think it's a good sign that i know what i'm doing and the purposes of each move. i just have to get better at it, esp decision making and analyzing situations which fly is really good at.
 
choknater

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
i learned that spamming bairs is actually good vs fox lol, just gotta do something... keep moving

what a hard matchup

lately i've been playing people who really know their matchups and i am feeling some disadvantages
 
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