The only real disadvantage is peach, any other character has been beaten by ICs so they are just dynamic enough to be called "balanced". Finally going to a tournament, was some time since the last one(sept/oct) so I´m getting slightly hyped, mostly for teams though since I need to practice against players to excel in singles which hasnt been happening for some months :/(more then a few matches here and there).
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
choknater
Smash Obsessed
idk i feel a pretty heavy disadvantage against fox
i seriously want to like... spend a lot of time and effort in "solving" fox
i seriously want to like... spend a lot of time and effort in "solving" fox
Divinokage
Smash Legend
You could watch Chudat and me in teams and look how he handles the foxes for examples.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
sounds like a good idea but teams is so diff
i'll check em out though
i'll check em out though
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well you can still look inside the situations of how he counters the Fox.. that doesn't change.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
right right haha
though he still lost to sfat who i wanna beat and is also in my region and made the same mistakes i would've made! there's gotta be a new way!
though he still lost to sfat who i wanna beat and is also in my region and made the same mistakes i would've made! there's gotta be a new way!
Best tools during the neutral game against him are going to be:
U-air (short hop is godly it took me 6 years to start using it but holy crap); it's also amazing against his platform game because the punishment window is so small, as a bait it's phenomenal.
F-tilt, mixed with the turning tilt desync
Blizzard
Auto-cancel b-air for bait and pressure.
WD while facing backwards. It tricks people into thinking you won't grab. Then you grab.
Don't jab anymore, you'll get ***** by a Fox that knows what's up. Shine and d-tilt crush jab-grab and jab-smash, the best thing to use after a jab against smart CC'ers is f-tilt because it's fast and pushes them to a safe distance.
I actually gimmick my way into some kills with jab-f-smash if I tipper the jab and they shine. DI'ing that down is bad news for spacies.
U-air (short hop is godly it took me 6 years to start using it but holy crap); it's also amazing against his platform game because the punishment window is so small, as a bait it's phenomenal.
F-tilt, mixed with the turning tilt desync
Blizzard
Auto-cancel b-air for bait and pressure.
WD while facing backwards. It tricks people into thinking you won't grab. Then you grab.
Don't jab anymore, you'll get ***** by a Fox that knows what's up. Shine and d-tilt crush jab-grab and jab-smash, the best thing to use after a jab against smart CC'ers is f-tilt because it's fast and pushes them to a safe distance.
I actually gimmick my way into some kills with jab-f-smash if I tipper the jab and they shine. DI'ing that down is bad news for spacies.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Why do Luigis jab > grab/dsmash against Fox if ICs shouldn't?
I had a lot of trouble with Fox 'till I started using Ftilt more.
I had a lot of trouble with Fox 'till I started using Ftilt more.
That's useful stuff to know wobbles thanks for that.
Actually I know you said somewhere you have issues vs falco but could you give any advice on it?
I feel like all my wins vs falco are lucky reads on bad decisions, I want something more concrete.
Actually I know you said somewhere you have issues vs falco but could you give any advice on it?
I feel like all my wins vs falco are lucky reads on bad decisions, I want something more concrete.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
thanks wobbles, i was bairing last night and it was working well, i'll try sh uair more
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
thank you for that valuable matchup knowledge
GrimTuesday: I don't know Maybe his has better IASA frames? Honestly I have had success with jab->STUFF for the longest time but now people are paying more attention to it, and either jumping or CC'ing before I can seem to get my stuff working. Especially spacies, who see it as a chance to get some shines going... and against Axe/Lovage/Alex19 especially, those fellas liked d-tilting me because it elevates ICs and... well, that's a ****ty position to be in against a Fox or Falco.
![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
choknater
Smash Obsessed
that's a terrible strategy LOL
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Felix its funny Wobbles say auto cancelled upair is good and you try it, when I am sure I have posted about it at least 3 or 4 times lol. (I know Im a scrub and all but lol)
Also someone was talking about Falco, I was just watching my last set vs Zhu where I got bodied pretty badly. One really small thing I noticed is if we crouch with ICs, then it forces Falco to do the really low lasers which is slightly more demanding on the Falco player.
Also someone was talking about Falco, I was just watching my last set vs Zhu where I got bodied pretty badly. One really small thing I noticed is if we crouch with ICs, then it forces Falco to do the really low lasers which is slightly more demanding on the Falco player.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
miles i have been doing autocancelled uair for a long time, but not specifically in the neutral game vs fox. advice specifically in that situation was what i wanted.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
F ur ac ua.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lmao aight
Thinking about techchasing, did something I´ve used earlier but kinda forgotten. Dthrow walf forward>dsmash or wavedash on reaction, walking seems tio hit fox both on tech behind Popo, but also in front of, meaning the only option left is tech away. Can anyone confirm this is allways the case or if it works on certain % or certain combinations of DI + tech?
Binx
Smash Master
I feel like they could DI the throw away tech in place and have a chance at rolling away or shining or something. I'm also wondering if they did a no DI and you walked forward if you could still get the regrab there or if they would be able to tech in place while you were walking, I guess you would dsmash with the back of it, nvm =D
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hehe i realized that if i hit a random dtilt against a spacie at mid-high percents (but less than 130) i should just do nothing to follow up
i always end up whiffing a smash move, or jab resetting them into nothing. but if i just discipline myself to press nothing after the dtilt, i get a strong tech chase opportunity.
i always end up whiffing a smash move, or jab resetting them into nothing. but if i just discipline myself to press nothing after the dtilt, i get a strong tech chase opportunity.
Binx
Smash Master
Its funny because I was about to say that the more I think really hard about match ups the more strongly I feel that non actions might actually be the strongest choice in like 90%+ of situations, especially vs Fox and Falco.
Then I come here to post that and read about you suggesting a non action even in such an advantageous position.
I feel like just using stage position to reduce viable options and waiting patiently for one you can punish is so much better than the next best option a large percentage of the time. I don't really follow this well in real matches but I think I want to try it out a bit more often to see how far I can get with it.
I think I will just be as mobile as I can in certain ranges and try to capitalize on mistakes, with proper reactions I think I could end up doing really well with that kind of a style. Then once the opponent is conditioned to either not believe I will approach or to stop using certain zoning techniques of their own I can create openings for stuff like blind grabs, or empty short hop mindgames and such.
Then I come here to post that and read about you suggesting a non action even in such an advantageous position.
I feel like just using stage position to reduce viable options and waiting patiently for one you can punish is so much better than the next best option a large percentage of the time. I don't really follow this well in real matches but I think I want to try it out a bit more often to see how far I can get with it.
I think I will just be as mobile as I can in certain ranges and try to capitalize on mistakes, with proper reactions I think I could end up doing really well with that kind of a style. Then once the opponent is conditioned to either not believe I will approach or to stop using certain zoning techniques of their own I can create openings for stuff like blind grabs, or empty short hop mindgames and such.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
im not really suggesting a non action. in fact in most matchups i enjoy taking a lot of action... i'm just saying that following up with a tech chase after a dtilt is more sensible than whiffing something if i dont react fast enough. i just tend to press too many buttons after dtilt
but youre right, a bait and punish style works really well with ics
but youre right, a bait and punish style works really well with ics
Binx
Smash Master
I think the way I would play the game ideally would be to run around and occasionally do some wierd desynch pressure or try to get in on a mindgame. I think that kind of style would best reflect how I would enjoy playing the game, hopefully I can make that work for me on a larger scale soon.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
considering how far the spacies have come, i wonder how good we will get at things like desynch innovation
like if we could desynch autocancel uairs or bairs or something godlikkeeeeee. if that's even possible though, cuz there's so few frames in between to do the command it seems
like if we could desynch autocancel uairs or bairs or something godlikkeeeeee. if that's even possible though, cuz there's so few frames in between to do the command it seems
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I have yet to see desynced auto cancelled bairs.
a TAS for ICs would raaaape.
a TAS for ICs would raaaape.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
haha yeah it's gotta be done!
i feel like the only ic's tas clips we've seen were done by people who don't really know what they're capable of
edit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6vstq7TOs
nevermind
i feel like the only ic's tas clips we've seen were done by people who don't really know what they're capable of
edit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6vstq7TOs
nevermind
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I can de-sync bairs continuously quite consistently once I get into a rhythm.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
dang son way 2 good
auto canceled? fast falled?
auto canceled? fast falled?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I dunno if they are auto-cancelled or not cause I l-cancel every aerial anyway (even in Brawl, lol), but they aren't fast-falled.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
desynched b-airs are only really difficult if you fastfall them
Binx
Smash Master
Are there situations where you guys think you can actually set up a good bair desych on someone and have it be useful?
Is it good shield pressure? what sets ups lead to it?if you hit with a bair what are your followups? can they spot dodge or roll or jump out of it safely at any points?
Is it good shield pressure? what sets ups lead to it?if you hit with a bair what are your followups? can they spot dodge or roll or jump out of it safely at any points?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
The most pragmatic way of setting up desynched bairs that I can think of off the top of my head would be via the ftilt guard desynch: wavedash while facing your opponent, turn around ftilt, and start the desynched bairs. Similarly, a pivot desynch that ends with Popo facing backwards might also be okay.
I can't seriously advise ever using desynched bairs like that, though, since it seems so fragile and uniformly impractical. Desynched bair shield pressure is not very threatening, particularly if you don't fastfall. My general stance on shield pressure with ICs is that if the opponent ever sits in their shield for more than a very brief period of time, just grab them; if not, figure out how they like to escape their shield and punish. Opportunities for weird, complex shield pressure generally do not happen with ICs, and even when they do, I do not believe they should be pursued.
Anyways, if you do want to do desynched bairs for one reason or another and you want to know your follow-up options, they vary a lot based on the opponent's character, percentage, DI, etc. If you hit with a Popo bair, you probably will very rarely be able to do anything substantial, if it all, with Nana to follow it up, but you still might be able to just wait for Popo to land and chase the opponent when synced again. If you hit with a Nana bair, you probably could combo off of it at with Popo at low percentages.
Still though, I can't recommend using bair this way since I see no situations in which this is better than some standard option. Of course, there's no harm in experimenting with it if you wish to.
I can't seriously advise ever using desynched bairs like that, though, since it seems so fragile and uniformly impractical. Desynched bair shield pressure is not very threatening, particularly if you don't fastfall. My general stance on shield pressure with ICs is that if the opponent ever sits in their shield for more than a very brief period of time, just grab them; if not, figure out how they like to escape their shield and punish. Opportunities for weird, complex shield pressure generally do not happen with ICs, and even when they do, I do not believe they should be pursued.
Anyways, if you do want to do desynched bairs for one reason or another and you want to know your follow-up options, they vary a lot based on the opponent's character, percentage, DI, etc. If you hit with a Popo bair, you probably will very rarely be able to do anything substantial, if it all, with Nana to follow it up, but you still might be able to just wait for Popo to land and chase the opponent when synced again. If you hit with a Nana bair, you probably could combo off of it at with Popo at low percentages.
Still though, I can't recommend using bair this way since I see no situations in which this is better than some standard option. Of course, there's no harm in experimenting with it if you wish to.
Binx
Smash Master
Yeah fly that was kinda the point I was trying to make but I figured if someone had a good followup I would leave it open incase someone had something to suggest.
Also I've been watching your vids fly and I'm starting to get really impressed. I really like the way you and wobbles have been using your nairs lately, its just plain good. One thing I think both of you under use is upsmash below platforms, I see you guys going for the upair land upair and people are jumping in that timing, I like to mix it up by doing uair land upsmash it often catches people in that jump and you can get some damage on them.
I also really like how wobbles uses his neutral b hammer hit at low percents for platform chasing and sometimes in combos, really creative use of the move, and seems really powerful. Also thanks to the TAS video I will likely be using rising reverse bairs to punish missed techs on platforms.
Are you ever on aim or skype fly? I would like to be able to just have a conversation about ICs theory, maybe one of these days we can set aside a time where we could watch a youtube video or 2 and pause and discuss tactics and spacing and options. Next chance I get to find some recorded matches of myself maybe I could set up a giant skype call where we could all get together and discuss games for an hour or so(obviously not just mine), just have everyone post them and analyze, maybe do it once a week or so and see how it works out.
Also I've been watching your vids fly and I'm starting to get really impressed. I really like the way you and wobbles have been using your nairs lately, its just plain good. One thing I think both of you under use is upsmash below platforms, I see you guys going for the upair land upair and people are jumping in that timing, I like to mix it up by doing uair land upsmash it often catches people in that jump and you can get some damage on them.
I also really like how wobbles uses his neutral b hammer hit at low percents for platform chasing and sometimes in combos, really creative use of the move, and seems really powerful. Also thanks to the TAS video I will likely be using rising reverse bairs to punish missed techs on platforms.
Are you ever on aim or skype fly? I would like to be able to just have a conversation about ICs theory, maybe one of these days we can set aside a time where we could watch a youtube video or 2 and pause and discuss tactics and spacing and options. Next chance I get to find some recorded matches of myself maybe I could set up a giant skype call where we could all get together and discuss games for an hour or so(obviously not just mine), just have everyone post them and analyze, maybe do it once a week or so and see how it works out.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'm on AIM in the evening, typically. Same with Skype, although I have a habit of forgetting that Skype exists. I'd be fine with everything in the last paragraph.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hm
i gotta prepare for tourny this sat
likely going to fight falcos
rematch DP and catnip
i gotta prepare for tourny this sat
likely going to fight falcos
rematch DP and catnip
Binx
Smash Master
Awesome fly, I think I'll record our skype call if thats okay with you and post links to discussions in the match up guides, maybe we could just talk about theory and options, you me chok and other knowledgable smashers. Ooh maybe even start a podcast haha.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lols
im down
im down
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
That all sounds good, although if you want to do a podcast, you should probably have some topics set in advance so we don't all just end up mumbling about stuff to take up time.
Binx
Smash Master
Fair enough, the first time I think we can just freestyle it and see what comes out, I'll still record it and if it ends up interesting we can still post it, if afterwards we feel like its still going to be a good use of time we can think of various topics and have it be more organized.
Or if there are some specifics you wanna touch on and can think of some examples I would be down for having the first attempt be more organized, I just don't know how everything is going to groove for us or anything for right now.
Or if there are some specifics you wanna touch on and can think of some examples I would be down for having the first attempt be more organized, I just don't know how everything is going to groove for us or anything for right now.