choknater
Smash Obsessed
i'm sure he'll consider it tomorrow morning
-
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
hey, does ic's initial crouch dodge certain short hopped aerials? Also, would there be any good applications for a belay desynch into nana bair? also, an early FH nair is the only time you can waveland from a nair right?
Binx
Smash Master
I can't think of any aerials off the top of my head that a crouch can dodge, I played a lot of 2d action scrollers growing up and ducking is actually one of my first instincts to dodge with so take that however you will.
Actually now that I think of it you can dodge falcos bairs with a crouch and if they do the aerial too early Marth's fair, but you don't actually gain any advantage vs those moves, Marth will just fair again which you are forced to block unless he was DIing away in which case you still can't get in on him, maybe you could walk forward a hex or so. Vs Falco he is certainly DIing it away if he did it that close or he is going to do the move late in which case you have to block again.
Ducking with ICs actually doesn't feel like it serves a good purpose except to convince your opponent you are fishing for a dsmash or to crouch cancel something, which you wouldnt be doing that early to show a crouch animation in general.
As for the second question my gut says if you could belay a bair you could short hop a bair faster and it would do twice as much damage and have a 6 frame longer hit box. And as many people have stated if you pressure a shield you are basically going to punish the shield escape method or grab immediately, a desynch bair isn't going to give enough stun to open up any new opportunities. But I encourage people to experiment with weird stuff like that anyways because the worst case scenario you learn that it doesnt work, but who knows it could be really useful in some way.
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
i think that belay- bair would not only be not the best option but it would also put you in danger
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
sh off of a platform, technically.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Whoops, I was supposed to do stuff today. I'll definitely get to the videos by tomorrow night.
The only thing I ever used belay OoS -> Nana bair for was tricking space animals whom I was edgeguarding. For example, if Fox is starting up-B and sees you belay OoS, he'll probably assume you're going to have Nana edgehog, so he goes straight toward Popo. If, instead of having Nana fastfall to the edge, you just have her drift around in place, you can bair him out of this. This isn't something I recommend using much though.
In general, there isn't much incentive to use belay OoS -> bair, since a synced bair hits harder, generally comes out a bit faster since Popo acts before Nana, and doesn't momentarily incapacitate Popo.
*high five*
The only thing I ever used belay OoS -> Nana bair for was tricking space animals whom I was edgeguarding. For example, if Fox is starting up-B and sees you belay OoS, he'll probably assume you're going to have Nana edgehog, so he goes straight toward Popo. If, instead of having Nana fastfall to the edge, you just have her drift around in place, you can bair him out of this. This isn't something I recommend using much though.
In general, there isn't much incentive to use belay OoS -> bair, since a synced bair hits harder, generally comes out a bit faster since Popo acts before Nana, and doesn't momentarily incapacitate Popo.
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
i just got beat convincingly and repeatedly by my friend who plays ganon, i would like to win this matchup
haow?
and i read every thing on ic's on this website multiple times and take notes
but to be honest the amount of situations is really overwhelming
basically i need more years of playing to become more consistant
haow?
and i read every thing on ic's on this website multiple times and take notes
but to be honest the amount of situations is really overwhelming
basically i need more years of playing to become more consistant
choknater
Smash Obsessed
if that last point is really the case, just keep playing
just be very patient and try not to get hit by ganon, and you'll slowly find your moments to hit him
blizzard camping is pretty helpful. it's not the be-all end-all tactic for the matchup, but it'll give you space
just be very patient and try not to get hit by ganon, and you'll slowly find your moments to hit him
blizzard camping is pretty helpful. it's not the be-all end-all tactic for the matchup, but it'll give you space
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
i have abused blizzard by DD nana blizzard and mostly by rolls of course
we have been practicing together and he knows the matchup now
i meant mostly consistency on 0toDeath CGs wobbling, handoff and reverse dair
i can now do everything i have seen in terms of desyncs othe rthan that supermoon walk in ics are silly
does anyone have notes on ics saved on their computer?
i will keep confidential
we have been practicing together and he knows the matchup now
i meant mostly consistency on 0toDeath CGs wobbling, handoff and reverse dair
i can now do everything i have seen in terms of desyncs othe rthan that supermoon walk in ics are silly
does anyone have notes on ics saved on their computer?
i will keep confidential
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
So, I was playing some friendlies and getting camped. I was thinking to myself, "self, how do I get my opponent to approach when he won't take the bait?" So, I spot-dodged into a Nana taunt. He reflexively approached me to punish the taunt, and I grabbed him.
That **** works.
That **** works.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
ROFL!
i wanna try that now, too good!!!!!!!!!
i wanna try that now, too good!!!!!!!!!
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,551
I do Nana taunt desynchs all the time lmao they're too good
Citizen Snips
Smash Journeyman
Alright, I guess I'll get the obvious elephant in the room out there.
The victory of S0ft's Pichu over PB&J's Ice Climbers is too big to ignore. I think it's been long enough for the hype to die down that we can now analyze the Pichu/Ice Climbers MU in depth.
Why do IC's lose?
The victory of S0ft's Pichu over PB&J's Ice Climbers is too big to ignore. I think it's been long enough for the hype to die down that we can now analyze the Pichu/Ice Climbers MU in depth.
Why do IC's lose?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i think pichu deserves a s0ft ban
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
I think if you desynch taunt Pichu, the match up becomes a lot easier.
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
Definitely lol. Taunts for the win! Isn't the matchup the same as pikachu except pichu damges herself more for attacks and she's harder to grab?
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
won against a decent falcon in tourney yesterday, chock 1 up for ICs
I.... don't really know if it's NEW per se. I might have found it ages ago, but never thought of it like this. But I either found or rediscovered a very interesting de-sync from a wavedash that's incredibly hard to distinguish from an ordinary approach, but gives you the option of having Nana smash IMMEDIATELY from a wavedash while letting Popo do more or less whatever he wants. It doesn't even involve pivoting.
The steps:
1) Face left.
2) Wavedash right.
3) Dash right.
4) At the same time that you dash, f-smash with the c-stick.
5) Nana will f-smash, Popo will continue dashing. You can, of course, immediately brake with a shield, dash dance the other direction, jump, grab, or do whatever.
Implications:
--Powerful tech-chasing/approach with a combination of an f-smash and delayed grab.
--A new and exciting way to bait Nana by using a desync that's hard to distinguish from an ordinary whiffed approach.
--(Poor Nana ;_
There's a variation on it which leaves Nana free instead of Popo. This one does involve a pivot and is therefore trickier to do.
1) Face right.
2) Wavedash left.
3) Dash left, and during the turning animation, execute a d-smash with the c-stick.
4) Popo d-smashes, and Nana keeps running.
So the most likely follow-up here is having Nana blizzard, dash-attack, or maybe even aerial. In the event that you're fighting a Fox or Falcon or some character who is dashdance camping you, this lets you bait them into crashing into a random hit from Nana that you can capitalize on. Much harder to do. Pivots are difficult.
This little brother/sister desync combo is pretty neat. I'm not sure if I'll be incorporating it for tourney next week, since I'm trying to follow the 80/20 rule with my practice ATM, but I encourage everyone to try it out since they're tough to distinguish from normal approaches.
The steps:
1) Face left.
2) Wavedash right.
3) Dash right.
4) At the same time that you dash, f-smash with the c-stick.
5) Nana will f-smash, Popo will continue dashing. You can, of course, immediately brake with a shield, dash dance the other direction, jump, grab, or do whatever.
Implications:
--Powerful tech-chasing/approach with a combination of an f-smash and delayed grab.
--A new and exciting way to bait Nana by using a desync that's hard to distinguish from an ordinary whiffed approach.
--(Poor Nana ;_
There's a variation on it which leaves Nana free instead of Popo. This one does involve a pivot and is therefore trickier to do.
1) Face right.
2) Wavedash left.
3) Dash left, and during the turning animation, execute a d-smash with the c-stick.
4) Popo d-smashes, and Nana keeps running.
So the most likely follow-up here is having Nana blizzard, dash-attack, or maybe even aerial. In the event that you're fighting a Fox or Falcon or some character who is dashdance camping you, this lets you bait them into crashing into a random hit from Nana that you can capitalize on. Much harder to do. Pivots are difficult.
This little brother/sister desync combo is pretty neat. I'm not sure if I'll be incorporating it for tourney next week, since I'm trying to follow the 80/20 rule with my practice ATM, but I encourage everyone to try it out since they're tough to distinguish from normal approaches.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Ya, its not new 
Didn't think so. It FELT new though. Heck I think it might even be in my silly video. But I didn't really explore this implementation of it.
It's also important to know that you can f-smash either direction, the only prerequisite being that you dash the opposite direction you are facing when you input the smash. If anything, it might be more appropriate to face the direction you are wavedashing, then do a *retreating* dash to keep yourself out of danger while Nana goes crazy.
Edit: ALSO
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14091067#post14091067
me vs. Axe, MANY FRIENDLIES.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4LgGJE-O7c#t=1m08s is particularly lovely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GswBDmDXGo#t=7m54s this is why you should learn the up+b cancel :D
It's also important to know that you can f-smash either direction, the only prerequisite being that you dash the opposite direction you are facing when you input the smash. If anything, it might be more appropriate to face the direction you are wavedashing, then do a *retreating* dash to keep yourself out of danger while Nana goes crazy.
Edit: ALSO
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14091067#post14091067
me vs. Axe, MANY FRIENDLIES.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4LgGJE-O7c#t=1m08s is particularly lovely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GswBDmDXGo#t=7m54s this is why you should learn the up+b cancel :D
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
Have you found a better way to deal with the blue bird wobbles? Or did you stick to your bait and punishes? Axe does a lot of fancy stuff lol.
I find facing backwards to be helpful. Against the shine->aerial pressure you can find places to squeeze in retreating b-airs out of shield. Auto-cancel u-air is godly for fighting him under the side platforms.
I dunno. I feel like Axe could be crushing me with certain things, like laser->grab->d-throw or JC shine -> grab f-throw and such. I'm trying to learn how to stay at a range where his approach isn't so guaranteed, and focus on keeping a clear head through the rushdown to try and see where the escape and counter opportunities are. A lot of it is just not panicking and not trying to be as fast-paced as the Falco, because he has equal opportunities for weaving out and retreating as for approaching. If you're too trigger happy you will eat **** and die. That's what happened to me against PP, anyhow.
And of course, a lot comes down to if you get a chance to kill Falco, YOU MUST DO IT.
I was not very spot on punishment wise. Handoff timing is weird against him
Sync'ed forward+b was unexpectedly successful, and I don't quite know why.
I dunno. I feel like Axe could be crushing me with certain things, like laser->grab->d-throw or JC shine -> grab f-throw and such. I'm trying to learn how to stay at a range where his approach isn't so guaranteed, and focus on keeping a clear head through the rushdown to try and see where the escape and counter opportunities are. A lot of it is just not panicking and not trying to be as fast-paced as the Falco, because he has equal opportunities for weaving out and retreating as for approaching. If you're too trigger happy you will eat **** and die. That's what happened to me against PP, anyhow.
And of course, a lot comes down to if you get a chance to kill Falco, YOU MUST DO IT.
I was not very spot on punishment wise. Handoff timing is weird against him
Sync'ed forward+b was unexpectedly successful, and I don't quite know why.
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
What exactly is an up b cancel is it when your close to the edge and up b? While u send nana flying? If that's what it is how close do you have to be to the edge for it to work? I was really amazed with how you saved nana after side b ing and then immediately up b ing with your set with axe.
You must up+b close to the height of your jump in order to up+b cancel. If you have too much vertical momentum it won't work. The physics on it are a bit wonky and take getting used to, but it's a really useful tool to add.
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
I think he was concerned with nana a lot more. Axe is a lot more aggressive than PP right? PP is a really good defensive falco I think. And thanks for the tips. I think i was doingthat half of the time. Otherwise nana just fell off the stage.
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
if you abuse up-b cancel it will get punished but getting used to the hitbox on nana's head and how to di the move so you dont kill nana is important ledge invincible popo+ invincible nana= hella safe
That up-b cancel is really tricky <_<.
I need to practice it a bit more. I feel like I just press up-b too early :<
I need to practice it a bit more. I feel like I just press up-b too early :<
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
When doing your forward b to grab the edge do you have to be just above the height ofthe ledge?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
quite disappointed i placed 9th today, i know i could've done better and at least gotten top 5 but it's okay
i think it was worth it, i got very valuable sheik and falcon practice this weekend vs the likes of smoke2jointz and tafokints/kira
i think it was worth it, i got very valuable sheik and falcon practice this weekend vs the likes of smoke2jointz and tafokints/kira
That desynch using the cstick might not have been mentioned before, but I´m, sure that wd backwards>smash stick backward to turnaround dashattack+charge Nana fsmash have been mentioned. When i play on top its probably one of the things I do.
Charging a smash from desynch is IMO more flexible (since you can both pressure and adjust your spacing effectively.
Othervise you´ll have to have extreemly (or is it pressuring so much that we havent realized its real effectiveness?) good timing to get use of it, instead of just having to let the A button go.
Random insight:
Have been at like 2 tournaments tha last 7 months, the best things with that break is that I have started learning when I play again and not falling for the same things people (ab)used to me before, I do recomend it if someone is having a hard time for improving. Getting alot of time to analyze matches might be very good for improving play.
Charging a smash from desynch is IMO more flexible (since you can both pressure and adjust your spacing effectively.
Othervise you´ll have to have extreemly (or is it pressuring so much that we havent realized its real effectiveness?) good timing to get use of it, instead of just having to let the A button go.
Random insight:
Have been at like 2 tournaments tha last 7 months, the best things with that break is that I have started learning when I play again and not falling for the same things people (ab)used to me before, I do recomend it if someone is having a hard time for improving. Getting alot of time to analyze matches might be very good for improving play.
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
Since other threads have been discussing using the claw I was wondering if there are any benefits in doing this for ic's or if anyone has been playing like this.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
whew
playing ic's feels like a chore lately. i've gotten better but i feel as if i've hit a minor block
imma be playing some falconzzz yayuhz haha
playing ic's feels like a chore lately. i've gotten better but i feel as if i've hit a minor block
imma be playing some falconzzz yayuhz haha
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,551
vts sucks
Vts
Smash Champion
all day sonvts sucks
So, I found a way to IMPROVE THE HANDOFF.
*thunderous applause*
So it's biggest weakness is that Nana does a random # of headbutts during her segment of the chaingrab, which gives people time to escape it. Well, no more! When she headbutts, you can just jab in between them and you should be able to lock them into place using the same principle as the jab variation of the infinite. So you can do your normal filler damage while you are holding them--I like tilts--and then give them to Nana. Confirm that she isn't going to throw right away, and time your jabs in between the headbutts.
You can use tilts SORT OF, but the problem is she headbutts as quickly as she can, which doesn't work for syncing up the tilt/headbutt to keep them locked in an infinite.
It's tricky, but I'm getting better at it. I will be testing it against players soon to see if I can just lock them permanently (and also speed up the handoff process by adding more damage).
*thunderous applause*
So it's biggest weakness is that Nana does a random # of headbutts during her segment of the chaingrab, which gives people time to escape it. Well, no more! When she headbutts, you can just jab in between them and you should be able to lock them into place using the same principle as the jab variation of the infinite. So you can do your normal filler damage while you are holding them--I like tilts--and then give them to Nana. Confirm that she isn't going to throw right away, and time your jabs in between the headbutts.
You can use tilts SORT OF, but the problem is she headbutts as quickly as she can, which doesn't work for syncing up the tilt/headbutt to keep them locked in an infinite.
It's tricky, but I'm getting better at it. I will be testing it against players soon to see if I can just lock them permanently (and also speed up the handoff process by adding more damage).
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
if she headbutts too many times, can't you just regrab or hit them as they break out?
Binx
Smash Master
wobbles you are my favorite, you should post some of your videos in the video thread =D
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
I think if you try to regrab there's a chance you won't regrab again if you mistime it or they spot dodge. Besides this should be usually at low percents. It might be better to smash at higher percents but definitely not at low percents unless you're an amazing edge guarder.