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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Smasher89

Smash Lord
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Nov 4, 2005
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One thing I know alot of Falcos goes for is a very low% shine or cc shine to start comboes on low %, and alot of dropping down platforms for pressure. Using those 2 situations to our advantage might be a way forward.
EDIT: To not forget the retreating bair when pressuring someone close to the ledge, often baiting for a roll.

(EDIT: If not IC player, this post might contain some kind of yomilevel, you have been warned hehe)
 

Binx

Smash Master
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I guess I'm being a little harsh on myself in my playstyle, I don't always pick risky options but I make sure that I occasionally do so that people don't abuse me by amusing I will never do anything risky.

I still just really need to get more damage out of my reads, whether I am choose the wrong startup or followup im not really sure yet without getting some vids of myself to see. hopefuly I can do that pretty damn soon.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
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Nov 4, 2007
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A more fun character.

Practice general movement (short hopped aerials, wavedashing and landing around, intuitive combos) to get a feel for the character. Practice chain-grabs (dthrow > dair, hand-off and wobbling if it is legal in your area first off), you can move onto more specific, difficult CGs later. Then practice the most useful desyncs (dash-dance, pivot ftilt) and practice controlling the ICs while desynced, attempt to string desyncs together, etc...

ICs are really a character you just need to play a lot and eventually you'll get a feel for them, they can't be taught as simply as spacies or whatever.
 

Teczer0

Research Assistant
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Ah, I see.

I just played a few matches with my brother with them and they seem a lot of fun.

Upairing FH runaways are the greatest thing.

I'll mess with them a bit more and maybe try them out in tourney next time who knows.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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I'm going to post a guide tomorrow night that's supposed to give the reader a broad idea about how the ICs function in a few important aspects, so hopefully that might help.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Tec just concentrate on learning one thing at a time, I suggest learning how to do chaingrabs and handoffs for maximum punishment, then working on getting grabs in lots of situations.
 

Teczer0

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Cool, I know very basic climbers I should probably say.

Like I can do dthrow dair CGs, blizzard in between, I used to be able to do like grab pummel charge smash stuff but I forgot.

I'm just learning how I should fight with them for now. I'll learn all the grab stuff on my free time I guess.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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In general as with most characters except fox and falco you should generally avoid approaching, stay on the ground or below people if you take to the air.

Use platforms and wavelands for unpredictable mobility, but be very smart with it. Recoveries are hard and bad.
 

Teczer0

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Huh, interesting.

I mean feel free to correct me but I feel like they have a decent approach since their WD is so fast.

Thats the main problem I always had when I would face an IC actually. I feel like I can more freely abuse WD in approaches.

Meh, day 1 climbers could be misinformed.
 

Wenbobular

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May 26, 2006
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Wavedash approaches kinda suck vs things like Falco Dairing in place, but at least ICs have a good dash attack whereas Luigi ... just has a longer wavedash
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Wavedashing as an approach is okay, but it's a little problematic since the landfall special animation leaves you vulnerable for a sixth of a second, so if the opponent guesses that you'll approach with a wavedash, it'll often be easy for him/her to intercept you.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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It's basically just the landing lag you go through after landing after the airdodge. You can't act then, so you're vulnerable right after you start a WD.
 

Teczer0

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Hmm, then what are good approach tools?

Because... I'd think as ICz we'd get camped till theres no tomorrow.

I have a hard time believing people would approach us much.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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How ICs approach varies a lot by match-up. Wavedash -> stuff is still often fine as long as you're no longer in lag by the time you're near the opponent, so stuff like WD -> jab/ftilt/fsmash/dsmash is fine on a lot of characters. Dash attack is also good since it combos well. Nanapult is decent against some characters, too. There's also stuff like WD -> utilt/usmash for when people are jumping around, backwards facing WD -> bair, and lots of other stuff depending on what the opponent is doing.

If you're too close for a wavedash to be safe, I would advise retreating, but you could still get away with dash attack, fair, turn around -> drift forward bair, walk forward -> something like ftilt, etc.
 

Teczer0

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Fair?

Thats interesting.

Although, I have to admit that makes a lot of sense.

Pretty informative stuff, once I play more I'll definitely ask more though.

You should make a Ask fly questions thread =3
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Overall, I don't like fair very much because of its long start-up, but it's still a solid option every now and then.

99% of ICs board activity happens in this thread and I like the lack of a leader. I'd feel silly making a thread in which I provide answers to questions that other people might also have good answers to.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
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random and relatively useless observation: if someone is shielding right at the ledge, a synched f-air can push them off the stage and then meteor smash them
 

Wobbles

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I'm sad; very little of my new ideas vs. Falco really work that well.

Mostly it's because the laser-hit de-syncs don't actually force him to come at you in any meaningful way. The other part is they require a specific Nana-Popo spacing to work right, and that spacing is easily gummed up by (oh guess what) lasers.

SH-uair is the most powerful tool I've been implementing and it works against a LOT of characters in useful ways, especially for poking through platforms. This isn't like news or anything but I haven't been giving it the attention it deserved.

Still Falco is my biggest issue. Too long I've been reliant on "4 big mistakes and I win," and that just doesn't fly.

How do you actively force this stupid bird to make decisions you can punish? Or am I going to have to settle for a biding strategy with even less room for error than before if I want to keep beating higher and higher level Falcos? Bah.
 

_Rocky_

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Do something extremely obnoxious IRL everytime you get lasered. Eventually the falco will be too scared/weirded out to laser you again.

**** it, you can apply that to all of falco's good decisions that you want him not to make
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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I'm hesitant to make too many generalizations about Falco since there's a lot of variety in how the character is played. What I will say that if the Falco is aggressive, beating him simply comes down to knowing how to punish (and punish hard) his preferred approach options; if the Falco is defensive, I like to follow him around and stay close enough for him to feel pressured into doing something, learn what he likes to do there, and then punish that, if possible. If the Falco is stubborn as hell, then some of the more gimmicky stuff like fsmash/ftilt through lasers and short hop blizzard approaches are okay.
 

choknater

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played against kfc for like 5 hrs today

the dude is good, and learned how to beat ic's with marth. high level stuff today. ic's gotta maintain momentum
 

Smasher89

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not sure how much faster, but powershielding a nair with the back against falco>dsmash can maybe be an option?, havent really thought about it that way...
 

Binx

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I think that consistent powershielding could be a way in on a lot of approaches, but if you mess up you could possibly die, also because nana shields late you would always have to be separated for it to be applied correctly, and if you powershield, she gets hit I believe its still possible to drop your shield and them get hit due to stun.

I think powershielding has a lot of potential applications vs Marth, and vs Falco if you can powershield his lasers, or perhaps vs turnips in some occasions, and I bet powershielding would be beastly vs ganons aerials since you could powershield and immediately dash attack or maybe dash grab in cases where he would otherwise be completely safe, but we already have methods to make those characters approach us, so it's still somewhat limited IMO.

Also I think powershield jab would still be the only thing quicker than shine and at most percents he could crouch cancel it into some nasty shine combos since he should already have been spacing deep into your shield.

I wonder if powershield dash away bair is something we will ever see used to beat out dair/nair shine. If spaced properly could this lead into a grab or good tech chases vs Fox/Falco? This is just theorycrafting a bit but that would be awesome to see. Vector man has shown that it's at least possible with Yoshi to perfect shield into an aerial with at least some level of consistency, I would like to see where this could take us in some matchups. I am trying to think of how it could be applied to puff/peach/ganon/samus?/marth/fox/falco.

Picture this, Fox nairs you, you powershield, short hop, dair, then grab with nana since she would have likely been hit by the nair, into a tech chase/handoff. Would work beautifully at low percents in thoery.
 

Strong Badam

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Fair's good cuz of its disjoint. Even tho it has startup if you're spaced well you shouldn't be getting punished
 

Fly_Amanita

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not sure how much faster, but powershielding a nair with the back against falco>dsmash can maybe be an option?, havent really thought about it that way...
In a world of perfect execution, this should be one frame faster than a shield grab. Without checking any data, I'm pretty damn sure this isn't enough to beat things like late nair/dair -> shine, and powershielding those would be very difficult in any case. The payoff for landing a grab is also generally much higher than that of landing a dsmash.
I think that consistent powershielding could be a way in on a lot of approaches, but if you mess up you could possibly die, also because nana shields late you would always have to be separated for it to be applied correctly, and if you powershield, she gets hit I believe its still possible to drop your shield and them get hit due to stun.
For basically the reasons listed here, I don't generally care for powershielding unless I'm Sopo, although there are exceptions to that preference.

I think powershielding has a lot of potential applications vs Marth, and vs Falco if you can powershield his lasers, or perhaps vs turnips in some occasions, and I bet powershielding would be beastly vs ganons aerials since you could powershield and immediately dash attack or maybe dash grab in cases where he would otherwise be completely safe, but we already have methods to make those characters approach us, so it's still somewhat limited IMO.
I can't envision powershielding being all that great against Marth. The only big advantage of powershielding over regular shielding is that you can act however you please after shield-stun ends, but unless Marth is spacing deep, I doubt you'll gain any significant advantage. The risk here is also huge, and trying this when Nana is with you will almost certainly result in her getting hit, notably weakening any punishment you can deliver. Most of this also applies to Ganon.

Powershielding lasers is okay. I do it as Popo, and I think you still can do it when synced provided that you're running forward so that Nana is a little behind you, although I think ICs have better and more reliable answers to lasers when synced anyways. I also don't envision powershielding being great against turnips, but it's worth looking into.

I wonder if powershield dash away bair is something we will ever see used to beat out dair/nair shine. If spaced properly could this lead into a grab or good tech chases vs Fox/Falco? This is just theorycrafting a bit but that would be awesome to see. Vector man has shown that it's at least possible with Yoshi to perfect shield into an aerial with at least some level of consistency, I would like to see where this could take us in some matchups. I am trying to think of how it could be applied to puff/peach/ganon/samus?/marth/fox/falco.
Dash away bair is too time-consuming to be practical for most purposes. It also generally has a lousy payoff, although there are exceptions. Yoshi has parrying, which functions notably different than powershielding and is generally easier to apply.


Picture this, Fox nairs you, you powershield, short hop, dair, then grab with nana since she would have likely been hit by the nair, into a tech chase/handoff. Would work beautifully at low percents in thoery.
Powershield -> short hop dair is no faster than a shield grab and has much worse payoff. Nana also likely wouldn't be in any position to grab after the nair unless she was at a low percentage and CC'd it. Even if you could get that to work, a standard shield-grab would be better since a Popo grab is much more reliable than a Nana one.


edit: I'm going to sleep now and will flesh out the guide when I wake up. It has seven main parts and I'm still entirely sure how I want to express certain things, but I think I'm sufficiently not stupid to work it out. It should be up before people in the GMT-{5,8} time zones who aren't on a crazy schedule wake up tomorrow.
 

Binx

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Yeah that makes sense that it isn't any faster, dunno why I didn't think of that earlier since thats all I was thinking about other options/aerials.

I'm sure there are some spacings where it would be good, like if you powershield a fox's dash attack that would cross up your shield so you cant grab, although he could probably cc it into a combo anyways so its still bad for other reasons.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Writing out the first of the seven sections took much longer than I anticipated, so I'm not confident that I can get the whole thing done by tonight with good quality. I'll be at a two-day tourney this weekend and that will probably delay progress further, but I will absolutely guarantee that I will be finished by Tuesday.

I'm terrible at meeting self-imposed deadlines. -_-
 

shmeargle

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Fly you could probably set like a time where you will be finished with one section at this time and then finish this section at another time, instead of saying something like I'll finish everything by this time. I'm not sure if this would appeal to you but it's a suggestion :]

Good luck at WGF!
 
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