General Final Fantasy Discussion - Final Fantasy XII remake incoming!

[Sephiroths Masamune]

That's how it is in every story. -_-

 

[finalark]

Big FFXI update. Square's gonna raise the cap from 85 to 90 plus add in a ton of new spells and all of that fun stuff.

But really, does anyone care about FFXI anymore?

Source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/05/december-final-fantasy-xi-update-to-increase-level-cap-once-agai/

 

[Gates]

Well it's not like Square has another MMO or anything.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Big FFXI update. Square's gonna raise the cap from 85 to 90 plus add in a ton of new spells and all of that fun stuff.

But really, does anyone care about FFXI anymore?

Source: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/05/december-final-fantasy-xi-update-to-increase-level-cap-once-agai/

they just making the game easier because everyone quit. Soloin' Dynamis ftw?

 

[finalark]

they just making the game easier because everyone quit. Soloin' Dynamis ftw?

I don't blame them. While the game was great when it first came out it failed to keep up with how rapidly the MMORPG evolved. Now Square's stuck with an MMORPG targeted at the typical Japanese Otaku with insane amounts of free time while everyone else is off enjoying western MMORPGs that can easily be played casually.

Really, at this point Square needs to stop being so pretentious and actually learn from us stupid westerners on how to make a good modern MMORPG if FFXI's failure to evolve and FFXIV's low scores have anything to say.

 

[Gates]

I think Square's modern game philosophy is this:

1. Ask Tetsuya Nomura what to do and then do what he says.
2. If he doesn't tell you what to do, just make the graphics really really good and hope that the sheeple don't notice.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Thing is, Wow is casual, but not omgeasy. They are making ffxi way to easy. FFXI will still take 40years to be good at, but it'll be easy.

 

[Gates]

As long as you don't lose 1/3 of your experience points from dying it should be fine.

Seriously, I understand there has to be some penalty for death, but come on I had to kill rabbits for like 10 hours to get to level 7 and then a beastman comes along and ***** me and I level down? No wonder people don't like the game.

 

[LASHING_LEAF]

what game is better 7 8 9 or 12

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Is this really nessesary? The question is more oppinion based than anything else.

If your asking favs, my answer is obvious.

FF VII

 

[finalark]

what game is better 7 8 9 or 12

Seven isn't bad, but I've played better.

Eight is terrible.

Nine is awesome if you love the old-school FFs and is pretty good on it's on merits.

Twelve was good, could have been better.

 

[Wrath`]

I don't see FFVI on yoru list, best one ever.

 

[LASHING_LEAF]

i wasent stating the best wrath if i was id have to say
1VI
2VII
3IV

 

[Gates]

None of the four you mentioned are that bad, but none of them are the best in the series either. They all have bad parts (VII doesn't live up to the hype, VIII has that bull**** draw system, IX drags on in some places, XII has a terrible story imo and is kind of a grindfest), but they all have good points too (Even though VII is overhyped, it's still a good game, VIII has solid mechanics aside from drawing magic and the story is decent, IX is a classic throwback to the old FF games, and XII has a great combat system). It really is just a subjective question as to which one is the best among them.

I like IX the best out of them so far, but none of them are among my top 3 FF games.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

As long as you don't lose 1/3 of your experience points from dying it should be fine.

Seriously, I understand there has to be some penalty for death, but come on I had to kill rabbits for like 10 hours to get to level 7 and then a beastman comes along and ***** me and I level down? No wonder people don't like the game.

Yeah. or deleveling from max level in endgame.

 

[finalark]

Some FFXIV news:

So the PS3 version is getting delayed because Square didn't want to release crap. They've openly admitted that the game sucks and the game's trail is being extended again. They're out right changing the game's director and reworking the game with plans to bring the whole thing into an entirely new direction. Let's hope that all of the reworking will some how make the game not suck.

Sources:

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/10/final-fantasy-xiv-team-restructuring-ps3-version-delayed/
http://www.gamesradar.com/pc/final-...a-20101210115343920087/g-20090602145146581065

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

^ Lol FFXI will shut down because they ruined it (made it solo-easy cause so many have quit) and they're new one sucks haha XD.

They need to get their swag on. SE did so much better back when Ninjas were good. (FF6, ninjas owned...FF11...they failed D

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

From what I heard FF XIV sucked from the players, so it's good they decided to remake it.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Iunno, the problem Square Enix NEVER understood with FFXI is people with lives cannot play 40hr weeks on mmos. In FFXI you had Dynamis which was 3~5 hours+ and you had to do it twice a week for like a year religiously to have decent stuff.

I kinda thought when Aht Urghan(sp) came out they understood, because Nyzul Isle was perfect. 30minute runs of fun and good armor drops. But then they added ZNM to the mix, which brought Pandemonium Warden, the 24+hour boss fight that got attention worldwide.

Idk, Square needs to quit mmos.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

24 hours to fight a boss? Too much.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

yep... they ended up nerfing him so it only took like 4~5 iirc.

Still, Kirin in sky back when things were lv75 and you had a group that hardly knew what to do could take like 3hours, and Dynamis was 3~5 hours. To be amazing you had to do sky and dynamis, and sky could last 6+hours.

 

[finalark]

Like I said, they need to just all sit down and play WoW for a few months then make FFXIV. That game is incredibly user friendly and you can actually enjoy it and make progress even if you only have like, an hour to spare.

And I lol at Square's "everyone who plays MMORPGs is a lifeless otaku" mentality.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

MMOs can cause addiction very easily, though.

I saw some sadcases on Maplestory, lolz

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

These are my favorite to least favorite FF games. Italicized means I haven't beaten them yet (unless it's FFII in which case I haven't beaten it and I don't want to).

II (Anyone who thinks FFXIII is one of the worst games in the series obviously hasn't played this abomination)[/i]

Honorable Mention: Chrono Trigger (It totally counts)

I know this is an old post but i dont understand your hate for FFII. At the very minimum its a game you have to respect. Square decided to change up the formula of the series that saved their company and honestly add game play elements that the NES could not do very well but the innovation was there. The LVL up system based on what you used was a good idea just didnt work in practice. Now I atm out of all the single player FF's ive played rate this one above both FFVIII and FFX-2. Also i want to add if you play FFII make sure u dont take breaks b/c the first time i played through i took breaks and couldn't finish it b/c I lost what i was doing but if you stick with the game you get an interesting not half bad gaming experience

Now to go through each game and give my opinion on them

FFIX: This is the best one imo. the characters were likable and besides one small part of the game pretty up-beat, you combined that with a good fighting system good story (that gets kinda weird at the end) and a two player mode that had not been seen since FFVI you got yourself a winner. Also i give extra points b/c vivi is the **** and the main character shockingly hit on the main female character. One last note to go with this: i played this two player one time with a friend nether of us wanted to be the white mage and it turned out you dont need one to beat the game so props for making it so u dont have to use a healer and still win at a reasonable lvl.

FFI: What to say about this game which hasn't already been said. Well its a fun game which lets you chose your own party classes which I liked, it is the blueprint for many RPG's to this day. The story was simple but got its point across. Its the game that made me love the monk class. Also IMO it holds up better then many other NES games such as the legend of zelda on the NES (have at me)

FFII: see above

ok for FFIII and FFV: I played both of them but remember very little about ether, i should one day play them again. Only note is at least one of these two let you switch classes which i liked but gladiator class if i remember correctly was to good

FFIV: It was a good game which had some missteps in it, Forcing the paladin class on you when the shadow knight (I think this is what it was called but you get the idea) one was imo cooler annoyed me. You could often tell when a character who joined you was ether not going to make it or at the minimum was going to leave kinda soon (i'm looking at you guy who didn't have enough MP to use the ultimate magic attack). The dragoon who kept switching sides was pretty cool but how many times can one person flip flop (i am giving him a pass b/c he was pretty cool). Lastly

Spoiler

You end up on the moon WTF

FFVI: The golden child of the SNES FF's. This game was great it gave you a ton of very cool characters to use the only problem being you couldn't use all of the ones you wanted to on one run through without unnecessary grind. This game to this day i dont understand how it fit on the SNES. When i played it i kept expecting it to end but it kept going shocking me with the size of the world. There are a few nit picky problems like i didnt like the main male character the thief guy, and the little girl was kinda random but over all a great game

FFVII: Ah 7 the hardest one to wright about , many will look at what i say about this game and chose to judge the rest of my opinions based on this. So let me start off by saying this is both the most over-hyped and most bashed game ever and both are uncalled for. This is not the best FF game but it is far from the worst. People need to see this game as it is which is a great transition to 3D games. This game honestly had many classic mechanics in it which get over look b/c of the fans or haters of this game, so the argument the mechanics are bad which ive seen people argue is completely lacking in validity. The biggest issue i had in this game was that it kinda forced u to use a limit break to attack but you could get around this so that was not a big deal. The moody characters can get kinda annoying and a guy with two girls going after him who doesn't go for ether of them is just annoying and makes part of the game feel like one of those cartoons made for tweens were the two characters who have a thing for each other never can face the subject which by the time you are in high school you should be able to deal with. But its not fair to point this as a black mark on FFVII b/c so many other games do this its just a thing i dont like and i digress. The real biggest problem with this game is the story is kinda unclear. While a big pluss is the willingness to kill off a major character, this should not be taken lightly since it was daring move. So to sum up its a solid game which gets more love and hate then it deserves

FFVIII: Now this is a game I hate. The story is crap the gameplay is crappy. I will say three positive things about this game, 1:The graphics and cutscene's for the time were amazing, 2: Just like FFII it was willing to deviate from a very popular game which came before it so i give it some respect, and 3: I liked Zell b/c when he is on the train shadow boxing about beating monsters i could see myself acting the same way if i was in his place. Ok now for the hate the draw system was poorly made and i hated having to get good magic from specific areas, I liked the idea of monsters leveling up with you but it did not work in practice. The story i gave up on when

Spoiler

it turns out you were all from the same orphanage and forgot plus the first main enemy of the game was your caretaker come on really. That plus the idea that you were the head of garden and still your salary could go down WTF

. I also did not like having to craft weapons. I will stop b/c i just dont like the game and there is no point going on with this one.

FFX: I liked this game a lot. I found most the characters likable and relatable. I liked that yuna was not some ****ty main female character (hint for FFX-2). Tidus was kinda annoying but at least he was not moody and was more clear about his feeling/emotions which made him a more relatable character then some previous leads. Wakka by name alone was awesome. Honestly the story in X was pretty good if not a little predictable (seymour a villain what a shocker). The grid system was not a bad experiment which i will give some props too. Overall this was a very enjoyable game and made the jump to the PS2 generation very nicely.

FFX-2: To be honest i almost dont want to talk about this game. The battle system and class changing system were nice but besides that horrible. RPG's often have to stand or fall by their story and in that case FFX-2 falls crashes and burns. It take one of the two main characters from FFX and gives her a brand new personality which is completely unfitting (people can change but not that much). The story was poorly made and did not make good use of the world we got to know from FFX. I will some this up real fast, pure and simple its fan service which upset the fans so go to your target test in melee make sure you fail and wait for the announcer to say it FAILURE.

FF-XII: A decent game which had a pretty nice battle system. Its an odd game to compare to other FF games since it was trying to take a step away from the others in the series. I do like that i never felt so OP that other humans were like guards were jokes to me. That was a good thing. In fact i beat the game but there were still monsters that could beat my part up like they were a joke which was nice. On the other hand leveling started to take to long and the game started to feel like an MMORPG with the time i would have to put in to complete missions for my guild/job thing. It was fun and an interesting FF to play through but i never had the want or need to play it a second time which hurts the game as a whole b/c imo it has real low replay value. So its ok some decent characters Vaan needed a shirt but Balthier was pretty cool. Yea so decent at best

Thats it i never played the online FF's nor have i played 13. I also wont bring in non numbered FF's since they dont fit. Also yea wall of text essay (anything to avoided working/studying for my finals)

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I agree with most if not all of your statements. I would like to argue about VII a little, but I don't like others cutting into my conversations or starting a troll war, but good job!

btw FFIII and FFV both allow you to change classes at any point in the game. As long as you unlock them that is.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I agree with most if not all of your statements. I would like to argue about VII a little, but I don't like others cutting into my coversations or starting a troll war, but good job!

btw FFIII and FFV both allow you to change classes at any point in the game. As long as you unlock them that is.

ah go ahead and cut in i would like to know your thoughts. and as long as we keep it civil it wont be a flame war. I must warn that if its going to be a long conversation i might have to put it off till after Friday when my finals are done. Also if i judge by your name i would assume you are a fan of FF7 but i dont like to assume ether way i am happy to hear what you or others have to say about my wall of text

 

[Gates]

I know this is an old post but i dont understand your hate for FFII. At the very minum its a game you have to respect. Square decided to change up the formula of the series that saved their company and honestly add game play elements that the NES could not do very well but the innovation was there. The LVL up system based on what you used was a good idea just didnt work in practice. Now I atm out of all the single player FF's ive played rate this one above both FFVIII and FFX-2. Also i want to add if you play FFII make sure u dont take breaks b/c the first time i played through i took breaks and couldn't finish it b/c I lost what i was doing but if you stick with the game you get an interesting not half bad gaming experience

That post is SIX MONTHS OLD dude. But whatever, I'll justify what I think about it anyway.

The level up system does in fact seem like a good idea in theory. In fact, it works so well in theory that a similar system is used in Pokemon (EVs, which subtly affect your stats). The problem is that they made leveling up based EXCLUSIVELY on what happened in combat. This is honestly the worst decision they could have made when making the game and it makes it extremely difficult for new players to succeed. Do you need more HP and Defense? Get hit a bunch of times. Seems safe right? Experience points? Nah, **** that. It's as if they wanted people to spend hours and hours grinding before they moved on to the main quest.

Speaking of the main quest, tell me if you've heard this one before: An evil group is bent on taking over the world and it's up to another group to stop it. Sound familiar? If you said that this is the plot to The Wizard of Oz, you'd be correct. This is the dime-a-dozen good versus evil plot that everyone's seen a million times. FFI's plot wasn't that much different but it was made unique by the concept of a time loop. I guess you could say that FFII isn't just a straightforward version of this story since David Bowie The Emperor comes back from Hell, but really, that's not much different from finding out that Darth Vader survived the explosion of the Death Star.

The characters are also pretty one dimensional stock characters - Firion doesn't talk iirc; Guy is the token dumb guy; Maria can't even be called the token girl since she doesn't have a girlish personality (or any personality); you barely ever see Leon so there's not a lot of time to develop him as a character; Minwu is the stock wise man; Josef is pretty forgettable since he's with the party for all of 1 dungeon; Gordon is the stock wimpy character; Leila is a pirate; Ricard is a Dragoon which is significant because he was the first in the series, but as a character he's not that interesting.

The only character I like is David Bowie Emperor Bowie and that's largely because of Under Pressure how he was written in Dissidia. In FFII, Ziggy Stardust Emperor Bowie is just a bland, generic evil villain as opposed to the conceited, aristocratic mastermind that he is portrayed to be in Dissidia. If David Bowie were half as good on his singles albums as he is on his collaborations, I'd be a lot more inclined to listen to his music.

If you look at the game from 1988 standards, then yes, you could consider it good, but still not as good as the original. If you look at it from 2010 standards, it's one of the biggest blemishes on a series that is otherwise known for high quality.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

That post is SIX MONTHS OLD dude. But whatever, I'll justify what I think about it anyway.

The level up system does in fact seem like a good idea in theory. In fact, it works so well in theory that a similar system is used in Pokemon (EVs, which subtly affect your stats). The problem is that they made leveling up based EXCLUSIVELY on what happened in combat. This is honestly the worst decision they could have made when making the game and it makes it extremely difficult for new players to succeed. Do you need more HP and Defense? Get hit a bunch of times. Seems safe right? Experience points? Nah, **** that. It's as if they wanted people to spend hours and hours grinding before they moved on to the main quest.

Speaking of the main quest, tell me if you've heard this one before: An evil group is bent on taking over the world and it's up to another group to stop it. Sound familiar? If you said that this is the plot to The Wizard of Oz, you'd be correct. This is the dime-a-dozen good versus evil plot that everyone's seen a million times. FFI's plot wasn't that much different but it was made unique by the concept of a time loop. I guess you could say that FFII isn't just a straightforward version of this story since David Bowie The Emperor comes back from Hell, but really, that's not much different from finding out that Darth Vader survived the explosion of the Death Star.

The characters are also pretty one dimensional stock characters - Firion doesn't talk iirc; Guy is the token dumb guy; Maria can't even be called the token girl since she doesn't have a girlish personality (or any personality); you barely ever see Leon so there's not a lot of time to develop him as a character; Minwu is the stock wise man; Josef is pretty forgettable since he's with the party for all of 1 dungeon; Gordon is the stock wimpy character; Leila is a pirate; Ricard is a Dragoon which is significant because he was the first in the series, but as a character he's not that interesting.

The only character I like is David Bowie Emperor Bowie and that's largely because of Under Pressure how he was written in Dissidia. In FFII, Ziggy Stardust Emperor Bowie is just a bland, generic evil villain as opposed to the conceited, aristocratic mastermind that he is portrayed to be in Dissidia. If David Bowie were half as good on his singles albums as he is on his collaborations, I'd be a lot more inclined to listen to his music.

If you look at the game from 1988 standards, then yes, you could consider it good, but still not as good as the original. If you look at it from 2010 standards, it's one of the biggest blemishes on a series that is otherwise known for high quality.

yes i know it is a 6 month old post, the first sentence of my post was "I know this is an old post" but i figured your opinion has not changed and i was proven correct.

Ok so now on to what seems ike your biggest problem with the game a one dimensional story and one dimensional characters. What to say besides you said it yourself "If you look at the game from 1988 standards, then yes, you could consider it good" the characters are more flushed out then most NES games of the same era and you cant compare character development from a NES game to a modern game. Now about the story its fair to argue it is one dimensional but i feel that is fine because the game is more of a test of new mechanics such as the lvl up system and the key word system, plus most NES storys come in the form of a booklet with the game.

Now on to the LVL up system, i like the idea but the technology was not there yet. Also i agree to lvl up correctly can be tough luckily there is a glitch i the game were everytime you chose to attack you can then hit back and chose attack again, each time you do this you will get points to leveling up your attack stat. This makes it a pretty easy game to get through but does add some tedium.

Now for the story (once more) tell me if you heard this one before a princess is captured and a hero goes to save her. That cover almost half the NES games and the evil people taking over the world covers most of the others.

When i judge an old game i try to look at different things. Such as innovation when it came out. Fun factor + replay value compared to other games around the same time, and how it holds up through time: Now as innovation goes this game hits it big but as fun factor and replay value go it is a bit lacking, but to call it an "abomination" and the worst game of the series i feel is an overstatement. I out of the FF games ive played rate it bottom 3 and most should rate it bottom two, but saying it is worst then FFX-2 i dont get. X-2 was a slap in the face to FF fans while this was a decent but lacking experiment.

O and Guy dumb i think not the man can talk to animals.

edit: those are not the only thing i judge old games by but its a good nice quick sum up and covers most of the important points

 

[finalark]

I thought we were talking about FFXI/XIV last time I checked this thread.

Anyway, I just want to say that FFII is one of the worst JRPGs I've ever played in my life.

 

[Minato]

I'm sad that people don't like VIII. It's not by absolute favorite, but I liked it.
The only thing I hated that people mentioned was the orphanage/GF thing and how the game encouraged you to not use spells.

Drawing was not a problem since that was one of the worst ways to get spells in that game.

 

[finalark]

I'm sad that people don't like VIII. It's not by absolute favorite, but I liked it.
The only thing I hated that people mentioned was the orphanage/GF thing and how the game encouraged you to not use spells.

Drawing was not a problem since that was one of the worst ways to get spells in that game.

I just kind of found 8 to be a pretty un-entertaining game over all. Didn't care for the junction system, the GF thing, the magic system or the story. Oh well, at least it had some interesting little dungeons and other bits and pieces.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Despite IX's sluggish battle system, and trance...god trance...

It's <3.

 

[finalark]

Despite IX's sluggish battle system, and trance...god trance...

It's <3.

Those were pretty much my two biggest issues with IX.

Ugh, Trance. Took forever to get a full bar and once you got it it went away right after battle.

I still think it's a fantastic game, though. Especially if you're a fan of the pre-3D Final Fantasies.

 

[Black Waltz]

Despite IX's sluggish battle system, and trance...god trance...

It's <3.

This. So much love for IX, but the battles were so slow. There would be at least a 10 second pause between actions, so AP grinding took forever.

 

[Gates]

Ok so now on to what seems ike your biggest problem with the game a one dimensional story and one dimensional characters.

No, my biggest problem was with the combat system, but obviously I didn't spend enough time on it.

Now on to the LVL up system, i like the idea but the technology was not there yet. Also i agree to lvl up correctly can be tough luckily there is a glitch i the game were everytime you chose to attack you can then hit back and chose attack again, each time you do this you will get points to leveling up your attack stat. This makes it a pretty easy game to get through but does add some tedium.

1. WHY THE **** DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME THIS WHEN I WAS PLAYING THROUGH THE GAME.
2. Then just falls into the same problem FFV and FFXII had where you need to spend hours grinding to make any progress. It's ok to have some grind in a game, but when there's an overbearing amount that takes time away from doing anything else you wanted in the game, it just gets tedious and frustrating. Sakaguchi's 9-year-old son with Down's Syndrome obviously worked very hard on the story, and I'd like to get back to it instead of grinding more than I should ever need to.
3. If you have to glitch the game to make it fun then it's not a good thing. If ET for the Atari 2600 had a glitch that turned it into Pitfall, it would be a good game (or at least a better game), but then why would you play ET in the first place when you can just play Pitfall? I've seen plenty of glitches in good games, but having to abuse glitches in the game to make it good is extremely poor design.

innovation when it came out

**** innovation. FFII innovates the same way Tony Hawk Ride innovates - it doesn't. It tried experimenting with a different leveling system, which failed, and with a story based around characters, which failed to an extent.

There's a big difference between innovating and experimenting. Experimenting is trying something out that you might think will work but want to see how it does in practice. Innovating is when not only does that thing work, but it's adopted by thousands of other games to come for decades. Super Mario 64 experimented with a camera system and ended up innovating the genre of all 3D games. FFII experimented with a new way to level up your skills and ended up doing a terrible job at it, to the point where glitching was the only way you could enjoy the game.

Fun factor

It has none, other than looking at the pretty graphics and hearing the pretty music.

And I will say that this game does have good graphics and music for its time.

+ replay value compared to other games around the same time

I never want to play this again in my entire life.

and how it holds up through time

It's held up my coffee table quite well actually, so I'll give you that much.

If you're looking at this as a game though, then it holds up about as well as a 3rd grader holds up a truck full of lead pipes.

I out of the FF games ive played rate it bottom 3 and most should rate it bottom two, but saying it is worst then FFX-2 i dont get. X-2 was a slap in the face to FF fans while this was a decent but lacking experiment.

See, I'm only counting the games in the main series, not the spinoffs. That's why I didn't put, say, FFIV:The After Years or FFT on my list. I also haven't played X-2, so there's that.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Those were pretty much my two biggest issues with IX.

Ugh, Trance. Took forever to get a full bar and once you got it it went away right after battle.

I still think it's a fantastic game, though. Especially if you're a fan of the pre-3D Final Fantasies.

Trance was just a bad idea, but I liked not relying on finishing combos to win easy.

This. So much love for IX, but the battles were so slow. There would be at least a 10 second pause between actions, so AP grinding took forever.

Yeah, IX has one of my favorite stories, simple but amazing. It also has my least favorite battle system. (Having to do a LLG to get max stats bothers me, and the battle system is toooooo slowwwww. That bothers me more than Trance) What a contrast, eh?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

No, my biggest problem was with the combat system, but obviously I didn't spend enough time on it.

1. WHY THE **** DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME THIS WHEN I WAS PLAYING THROUGH THE GAME.
2. Then just falls into the same problem FFV and FFXII had where you need to spend hours grinding to make any progress. It's ok to have some grind in a game, but when there's an overbearing amount that takes time away from doing anything else you wanted in the game, it just gets tedious and frustrating. Sakaguchi's 9-year-old son with Down's Syndrome obviously worked very hard on the story, and I'd like to get back to it instead of grinding more than I should ever need to.
3. If you have to glitch the game to make it fun then it's not a good thing. If ET for the Atari 2600 had a glitch that turned it into Pitfall, it would be a good game (or at least a better game), but then why would you play ET in the first place when you can just play Pitfall? I've seen plenty of glitches in good games, but having to abuse glitches in the game to make it good is extremely poor design.

**** innovation. FFII innovates the same way Tony Hawk Ride innovates - it doesn't. It tried experimenting with a different leveling system, which failed, and with a story based around characters, which failed to an extent.

There's a big difference between innovating and experimenting. Experimenting is trying something out that you might think will work but want to see how it does in practice. Innovating is when not only does that thing work, but it's adopted by thousands of other games to come for decades. Super Mario 64 experimented with a camera system and ended up innovating the genre of all 3D games. FFII experimented with a new way to level up your skills and ended up doing a terrible job at it, to the point where glitching was the only way you could enjoy the game.

It has none, other than looking at the pretty graphics and hearing the pretty music.

And I will say that this game does have good graphics and music for its time.

I never want to play this again in my entire life.

It's held up my coffee table quite well actually, so I'll give you that much.

If you're looking at this as a game though, then it holds up about as well as a 3rd grader holds up a truck full of lead pipes.

See, I'm only counting the games in the main series, not the spinoffs. That's why I didn't put, say, FFIV:The After Years or FFT on my list. I also haven't played X-2, so there's that.

So first off dont bash the innovation. you yourself said pokemon has a similar thing with ev's in pokemon (it does have key differences as ev's depend on who you fight not what you do in the fight but i could see these ideas having similar ancestry) and its innovation attempt like ffII that can lead to better mechanics. This experiment might not of taken off and become the norm for RPG's but i am happy they tried it and honestly i would like to see this idea brought back and implemented better, i feel the idea has potential.

Now for the glitch well for the most part i agree that a glitch is a bad thing if its needed to make a game better but then i think about wavedashing (i know some dont call it a glitch but it was not a intended thing so i am putting it in glitch category). So the glitch might be needed but at least imo it only adds to the game. Maybe without it i would of hated the game but b/c i could always become strong enough and have enough HP i was able not to worry about i was able to enjoy what the game offered. The first time i tried to play this game i did not enjoy it but after giving it a second chance i found a decent unique game experience which i was happy to off played

I would also like to point out i forgot to mention the real worst thing about FF2 which a friend of mine reminded me of: There is no buffer zone between super powerful enemy's and low lvl enemy's this meant from almost the very start of the game if you wonder off to far left you will die, and die horribly.

I also did not count any out of the main series, my 2nd east fav is FF8 which in many ways is like FF2 but imo less likable.

I still dont understand how you can bash a NES game that has a story in it instead of in a booklet expesaclly since most NES games have and equal or worst story unless you just dont like almost any NES games stories.

Ok now FFIX yea i forgot to mention the trance system is flawed and the battle screen can take awhile to load but its still my Fav and the positives in it out weigh the negatives by a large large amount

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Amarant of the Flame was epic.

The guy does have a point Gates, NES games did not have good stories. Most of them were in the manuals, and that's it.

Does II's story compare to X or XIII? Lol no, of course not. But for it's time, it was better than I.

 

[Pikaville]

I though 4 had one of the best storylines of the series.

So many twists.

 

[Gates]

So first off dont bash the innovation. you yourself said pokemon has a similar thing with ev's in pokemon (it does have key differences as ev's depend on who you fight not what you do in the fight but i could see these ideas having similar ancestry) and its innovation attempt like ffII that can lead to better mechanics. This experiment might not of taken off and become the norm for RPG's but i am happy they tried it and honestly i would like to see this idea brought back and implemented better, i feel the idea has potential.

Again, I really don't think you realize what innovation is. If I try putting poison on a sandwich and someone eats it and dies, most people would call it a travesty but it seems like you would think I was trying to innovate my cooking style and would like to see poison used in other recipes. This is why you would be my defense attorney in court, but it's also why you would make a poor game critic (that and your punctuation is really bad too). My point is that you're throwing this buzzword around too much without fully understanding what it means, like a little kid who just learned the word "gay", and like that kid you're only misusing the term because you've heard other people misuse the term. You can't listen to a press conference of a video game console manufacturer without hearing the word innovation (especially around the time of E3). What they mean isn't that the Wii Vitality Sensor innovates, it's that they're experimenting with it and that they hope it will be successful so that other people will try to emulate it. That is essentially what innovation is in video games - experimentation that results in success. FFII, however, was not a success. If it was, it would have made it to America before 2003 and it also wouldn't be critically panned to this day.

As for pokemon having a similar thing, there's a good chance that they just thought of it on their own. DVs and IVs have been around since the first pokemon games to modify and differentiate the stats of individual pokemon of the same species and EVs are just an extension of that. If it weren't for hacking, we wouldn't know about anything of the sort. Most people don't know about EVs and get through the game just fine. Satoshi Tajiri is an intelligent, thorough, and mildly autistic person, and it's very likely that he wanted a way for pokemon to develop subtly and differently throughout their experiences with the player. This is all speculation, but it's certainly not unlikely.

but then i think about wavedashing

That is completely different. People can enjoy Melee fine without being able to wavedash. It's not needed for playing single player, it's not needed if you only play the game casually, it's only needed if you play the game on a competitive level (and even then, a lot of characters like Jiggs and Peach have terrible wavedashes and you can play them fine without learning how). I feel like fighting game communities often think that they're the only group of people who buys the games they play, but that's really not the case at all. It's especially true of Smash. Most people don't buy Smash because they loved the competitive aspects of it, like the fighting system compared to other fighting games, or want to do well in the tournament scene, they buy it because U CN BEET UP PIKCHU WITH MARIO HERP DERP.

Also, Sakurai stated that he found out that wavedashing existed during the development process. Regardless of whether it was a glitch or not, the developers knew about it and kept it in the game. Take that as you will.

So the glitch might be needed but at least imo it only adds to the game.

It adds to the game in the sense that it's the only way for you to play it. If I can't walk without crutches, the crutches aren't adding to my walking experience, they're enabling it. There's a big difference between something enhancing the game and something enabling it.

The glitch doesn't fully make sense either. What if I want to level up my magic? What would I do then?

The first time i tried to play this game i did not enjoy it

See, this is reasonable.

but after giving it a second chance i found a decent unique game experience which i was happy to off played

...but this isn't. Why would you go back to something you didn't like? Did you develop Stockholm Syndrome towards the game or something? Did you just have nothing better to do? Was somebody holding a gun to your head? Were you that desperate to know then ending of the story that anyone could figure out within like 2 hours of gameplay (not including grinding).

I would also like to point out i forgot to mention the real worst thing about FF2 which a friend of mine reminded me of: There is no buffer zone between super powerful enemy's and low lvl enemy's this meant from almost the very start of the game if you wonder off to far left you will die, and die horribly.

This is another problem with the game that I forgot to mention. However, considering the popularity of open world games these days and the fact that if you wander far enough in Fallout 3 after getting out of the vault you'll find Super Mutants, I guess this is one of the few instances that you could say this is intentional. It still doesn't make any sense though. Why do enemies get stronger the further away I am from water? Are they pissed because they're dehydrated?

There's also the opening scripted battle where you get ***** by four black knights. I'm guessing that was one of the first scripted battles in a video game, so that must have been pretty confusing for players at the time.

Frankly, the whole impression that I get from you on this is that you're looking through FFII with nostalgia goggles or something. That's unlikely because it means you would have grown up in Japan, and given that you're posting on an American message board with relatively good English skills that seems unlikely. What seems more likely is that you're just someone who likes things because they're different, regardless of how good they actually are. There's nothing that I can really do to change your entire life's philosophy, but regardless of other factors, when something is bad it's still bad. You can walk outside in your underwear in the winter in Canada to be different but that doesn't mean it's a good idea or that people should respect or like you for it.



Before I go on to the next part, I want to say that the main thing I hate the most about FFII is the GAMEPLAY, not the story. I don't know why the story has even become the main focus of this. It's not really even that bad, it's just bland and forgettable, which honestly isn't a bad thing when it comes to games. One of my favorite games of all time is Super Mario Galaxy and that has the same plot as all the other Mario games - you're in a plane that crashes in the Atlantic Ocean and you find a lighthouse with an elevator inside that takes you down to an underwater city ruled by a Randian objectivist who has turned into a totalitarian recluse in the now-dystopic city that you must wrest from his control by fighting genetically altered scuba divers with drill arms and harvesting precious MacGuffin fluid from the small girls they protect.

When I look at the Final Fantasy series (or any series), I judge each entry in the series based off of the standards I would jusge the most recent game in the series I have played (in this case FFXIII). I'm not looking at this as an NES game, I'm looking at it as a modern game, period. When judging an old FF game, I hold the story, battle system, leveling system, characters, etc. to the same standard as I would a current-gen game. The only aspects of the game that I do not use modern standards for are graphics and sound, for obvious reasons.

I honestly regret even mentioning the story now. I feel like the only reason I did is because it was an easy target and that everybody already knew how bad the gameplay was. Clearly the opposite was true.

I still dont understand how you can bash a NES game that has a story in it instead of in a booklet expesaclly since most NES games have and equal or worst story unless you just dont like almost any NES games stories.

The guy does have a point Gates, NES games did not have good stories. Most of them were in the manuals, and that's it.

Most NES games were licensed or sports games. Plus, an NES cartridge has less storage capacity than a phone from 2006. Of course the stories were simplistic and trite, they barely had enough room for the code in there. If you're saying that the fact that it has a story at all is impressive, then yeah I guess you're right, but again, I'm not judging it by those standards.

Does II's story compare to X or XIII? Lol no, of course not. But for it's time, it was better than I.

I honestly can't tell if you're referencing this in a good or bad way. I think it's mostly the setting of FFX and the history of Spira that people don't like about the story. For FFXIII it's mostly that they never really explained much about the story or setting in-game and instead decided to just put a database with everything you'd want to know about the plot as one of the menu options. FFII doesn't have the problem of an overly-complex story because it's boiled down to its simplest components - Good versus Evil, Darkness versus Light, Are you a bad enough dude to save the president, etc. But again, I'm not judging it by those standards.

And no, I don't think it was better than FFI. FFI had a huge surprise when you found out that Garland was the one who sent the Fiends into the future. It's something that nobody would have suspected. FFII's big plot twists were that Leon was working for the empire after you were separated from him and then that David Bowie came back from hell to reclaim his crown, neither of which is terribly surprising.

I though 4 had one of the best storylines of the series.

So many twists.

Yeah, but half the time the plot twist is always that it's mind control. Still a good story and a good game though.

And riding a whale to the moon is awesome btw.