Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[Ray_Kalm]

I'm not seeing why the fastfall specifically is a problem (remember in this game, fastfalls have to be inputted AFTER the aerial, which is why D-air spiking in this game is much easier). The most tricky part I would imagine is making sure you do a short footstool jump by lightly tapping the jump button.

The footstool took a while to get use to, full hop with the control stick, then footstool with Y.

I don't think you can fastfall after footstool on the 3DS version, which is probably why I'm experiencing problems.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The footstool took a while to get use to, full hop with the control stick, then footstool with Y.

I don't think you can fastfall after footstool on the 3DS version, which is probably why I'm experiencing problems.

Yeah, I can imagine why it's a pain to do on the 3DS without a C stick. When I see Gungnir do it though, it really just looks like he does a short footstool jump and does aerial -> fastfall at the apex.

 

[Jiom]

I find it so much easier the closer you are to the ground when your dair hits, so pretty much anytime I can't lag cancel the dair it's very difficult to land the uair reset.

Also hold down while you are inputting the footstall so you only have to flick c stick since the game will fast fall it for you, granted you are no longer rising with the footstool.

 

[Knux27]

I have a question about what I could have done in a match last night I fought in For Glory.

I was playing as Pit against a Ganondorf, and was playing well, but then I was caught in something no other Ganondorf player has used on me. This guy repeatedly used Flame Choke on me, enough to push me all the way acrossed the Omega NSMB2 stage on 3DS. I tried to roll away, was caught. Shield, caught. Nothing, caught once again. Attack, caught. I was still on the ground, and doubted I could have spot dodged anyway.

I am just wondering if anyone can give me any advice as to how to escape this if someone uses it on me again. I know how to dodge one Flame Choke, but this person kept on doing it before I had any change to get away, shield, anything.

Oh, and for the record, a Rage Ganondorf's Warlock Punch and his vertical charge kick each can destroy Pits Guardian Orbitars in one hit.(I was falling down right in his path, didn't think I fall far enough away, or nail the air dodge, land and shield or land and nail a spotdodge, so I used another shield that I knew would work long enough to ensure a safe landing)

 

[Jiom]

You can react with a spotdodge to avoid it. If you shield, you will always get grabbed because you can get grabbed out of your shield. That's just how the game works.

Also if you space your attacks right you should hit him out of it and will knock him out of grab if timed right or just outright beat it with the right spacing.

 

[Knux27]

@ Jiom Thanks.

 

[Ussi]

Is there a post/thread about the follow ups Ganon has on flame choke?

 

[the king of murder]

Is there a post/thread about the follow ups Ganon has on flame choke?

http://smashboards.com/threads/missed-tech-flame-choke-followups-confirmed-by-japanese.373665/

or

http://i.imgur.com/9LhItgJ.png for more detail, though you can get more creative with your options like choke-->F-smash works most of the time when you predict an inward roll, or stomp ect...

 

[IguanaBeWithYou]

Is it possible to B-Reverse with Ganon wether it be a short or long distance?

 

[Karsticles]

Who should I be watching? Who is the best Dorf out there? Preferably with customs on.

 

[Big O]

Who should I be watching? Who is the best Dorf out there? Preferably with customs on.

The top 3 imo are Gungnir, Pon, and Ray_Kalm. As far as customs matches goes, there aren't that many out there to my knowledge. If you want vids of those three go to the first post in the video thread. I think the Pon vs Pika and Mega Man match in particular is probably the highlight of Ganon's punishment capabilities.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The top 3 imo are Gungnir, Pon, and Ray_Kalm. As far as customs matches goes, there aren't that many out there to my knowledge. If you want vids of those three go the the first post in the video thread. I think the Pon vs Pika and Mega Man match in particular is probably the highlight of Ganon's punishment capabilities.

I feel like Ray_Kalm, even though he gives very good advice on the forums, his actual playstyle is very hard to follow.

Instead, I think it's easier to learn from Z1GMA and Vermanubis.

 

[Blobface]

So having played Adom4 just earlier today (I won some, but he beat me pretty handily most of the time), I noticed that the biggest issue I was having was that once I landed a hit, I getting nearly enough reward. I'd keep getting interrupted by Ganon's big fat nair. I'm used to fighting other characters where they either don't have enough range to beat out Ganon in the air, or they don't have the speed, but I had no clue how to deal with one who had both. How does one get around fast, long ranged moves when chaining?

 

[WwwWario]

I'm curious, as a Ganon main, I still don't know the answer to this: Can Ganon still smash oponents off stage with his Flame Choke? I mean, the Choke was changed from Brawl when used in the air, where it here grabs them, stops and pushes them straight down (or you can drag them a bit backwards), but in Brawl, you would grab them and keep the momentum. If you hit in the air in Brawl and smashed them in the ground right next to the edge, you would smash them downwards off the stage while Ganon remains, if you understand. Is this still possible in Smash 4? Not sure how I feel about the Choke change, tbh. I liked it when you kept the momentum, but it's cool to just stop and drag them straight down, too. Not to mention that dragging them backwards is really useful when recovering and someone is trying to edgeguard.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'm curious, as a Ganon main, I still don't know the answer to this: Can Ganon still smash oponents off stage with his Flame Choke? I mean, the Choke was changed from Brawl when used in the air, where it here grabs them, stops and pushes them straight down (or you can drag them a bit backwards), but in Brawl, you would grab them and keep the momentum. If you hit in the air in Brawl and smashed them in the ground right next to the edge, you would smash them downwards off the stage while Ganon remains, if you understand. Is this still possible in Smash 4? Not sure how I feel about the Choke change, tbh. I liked it when you kept the momentum, but it's cool to just stop and drag them straight down, too. Not to mention that dragging them backwards is really useful when recovering and someone is trying to edgeguard.

In short, yes. Only specific characters, some fall all the way down, and some grab the ledge.

 

[WwwWario]

In short, yes. Only specific characters, some fall all the way down, and some grab the ledge.

Ah, great. Loved that feature in Brawl, though I haven't been able to pull it off here yet. I guess I have to be very close to the edge.

 

[adom4]

Any tips for the Falcon match up?
It always seems whenever i try to edgeguard him his up B almost always wins.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Any tips for the Falcon match up?
It always seems whenever i try to edgeguard him his up B almost always wins.

Reverse Uair from the ledge is very easy to time if Falcon recovers low. Ledge tech Fair also can reliably end his stock. I just do Nair and Uair edgeguards like I would vs Ganon, just sometimes vs Falcon you need to be ready for a high recovery.

 

[Cypher99]

What are the Ganon's pros and cons
What are his best and worst mus

 

[Blobface]

Pros

• Ridiculous power. He has the highest average damage per-hit of any character by a considerable margin, gets tons of reward of grabs, combos as well as Captain Falcon, has the deadliest edgeguarding in the game, has lots of ways to set up kill reads, and his only move that doesn't kill is his pummel. Nobody can end a stock faster than Ganondorf.
• Fat. Ganondorf clocks in at 112 weight.
• Very long range, plus his attacks have fairly low endlag.
  
• His big fast aerials make him fairly good in disadvantage, and also make it hard to edgeguard him... provided he doesn't need to use his recovery move. More on that later
• U-air (deserves it's own spot)
• Flame Choke (also deserves it's own spot)
• He's friggin' GANONDORF (Completely unrelated, but when looking at these smilies, I noticed a lot of character's stock icon faces the same way between games. Ganondorf faces right, Mario faces left, Captain Falcon faces straight forward etc. Coincidence?)

Cons

• Easily the worst movement stats in the game. Bad walk speed, bad run speed, bad airspeed, bad double jump etc. The only slower character is Robin, and why would Robin need to move around that much anyway?
• Start-up on his attacks leaves a lot to be desired.
• Terrible grab range.
• Crappy recovery move make him fairly vulnerable to edgeguards if and only if he doesn't have time to use his aerials. Ganondorf's aerials are so good that he's basically invincible offstage if he doesn't have to use his recovery move. Partially alleviated by customs.
• One of the most mentally difficult characters. Ganon's design means that even things like approaching require reads on some characters, which is balanced by his insane reward. Basically, a Ganondorf main needs to think several moves ahead of his opponent to win.
• Sheik, ZSS, Villager, and Rosa. In other words, what Ganondorf hates most: Safety. These foul four can just sit around and poke Ganon to death. Thankfully, they're the only four that are really very good at it. Most other characters need to make at least some risks to fight Ganon.

Good matchups
Basically, any matchup where Ganon has a significant range advantage is already in his favor. He may be bad at approaching, but actually approaching Ganondorf when he can just boot you from several miles away is incredibly difficult. Ganondorf also likes matchups against characters that have very low weights. Ganondorf's reward is already insane, but when his tilts are killing characters 40% before the other characters smashes, he has an advantage. Some examples of his good matchups include: Kirby, Little Mac, and G&W.

Bad matchups
As mentioned above, ZSS, Sheik, Villager, and Rosa are absolutely terrible for Ganon, maybe as bad as 30:70. To be honest, none of Ganon's matchups are bad besides these four abominations, a slight disadvantage (45:55) at most. With that said, Ganon is very volatile. He'll either pound the poor sap into paste or die a death of a thousand cuts. It's important not to get discouraged. No matter how hard the mosquitoes try to pester the Dark Lord, he will always rise again to break their spirits and drag their souls to oblivion.

 

[Illusions4]

If you do sideB to send yourself off the stage, will Ganondorf snap to the ledge, or just plummet and SD?

Depends o the distance. If you hold back you'll catch the ledge. If you don't you'll fall. Also, if you start-up too close to the ledge you won't be able to grab it

 

[jahkzheng]

Pros

• Ridiculous power. He has the highest average damage per-hit of any character by a considerable margin, gets tons of reward of grabs, combos as well as Captain Falcon, has the deadliest edgeguarding in the game, has lots of ways to set up kill reads, and his only move that doesn't kill is his pummel. Nobody can end a stock faster than Ganondorf.
• Fat. Ganondorf clocks in at 112 weight.
• Very long range, plus his attacks have fairly low endlag.
  
• His big fast aerials make him fairly good in disadvantage, and also make it hard to edgeguard him... provided he doesn't need to use his recovery move. More on that later
• U-air (deserves it's own spot)
• Flame Choke (also deserves it's own spot)
• He's friggin' GANONDORF (Completely unrelated, but when looking at these smilies, I noticed a lot of character's stock icon faces the same way between games. Ganondorf faces right, Mario faces left, Captain Falcon faces straight forward etc. Coincidence?)

Cons

• Easily the worst movement stats in the game. Bad walk speed, bad run speed, bad airspeed, bad double jump etc. The only slower character is Robin, and why would Robin need to move around that much anyway?
• Start-up on his attacks leaves a lot to be desired.
• Terrible grab range.
• Crappy recovery move make him fairly vulnerable to edgeguards if and only if he doesn't have time to use his aerials. Ganondorf's aerials are so good that he's basically invincible offstage if he doesn't have to use his recovery move. Partially alleviated by customs.
• One of the most mentally difficult characters. Ganon's design means that even things like approaching require reads on some characters, which is balanced by his insane reward. Basically, a Ganondorf main needs to think several moves ahead of his opponent to win.
• Sheik, ZSS, Villager, and Rosa. In other words, what Ganondorf hates most: Safety. These foul four can just sit around and poke Ganon to death. Thankfully, they're the only four that are really very good at it. Most other characters need to make at least some risks to fight Ganon.

Good matchups
Basically, any matchup where Ganon has a significant range advantage is already in his favor. He may be bad at approaching, but actually approaching Ganondorf when he can just boot you from several miles away is incredibly difficult. Ganondorf also likes matchups against characters that have very low weights. Ganondorf's reward is already insane, but when his tilts are killing characters 40% before the other characters smashes, he has an advantage. Some examples of his good matchups include: Kirby, Little Mac, and G&W.

Bad matchups
As mentioned above, ZSS, Sheik, Villager, and Rosa are absolutely terrible for Ganon, maybe as bad as 30:70. To be honest, none of Ganon's matchups are bad besides these four abominations, a slight disadvantage (45:55) at most. With that said, Ganon is very volatile. He'll either pound the poor sap into paste or die a death of a thousand cuts. It's important not to get discouraged. No matter how hard the mosquitoes try to pester the Dark Lord, he will always rise again to break their spirits and drag their souls to oblivion.

Sonic may be nearly as bad as those other matchups. Same with Pika. Probably 40:60 at best. That's just my assessment based on what they're capable of and how hard they can be to punish. Also just what I've heard on this board.

 

[Blobface]

Those matchups may be bad, but they're certainly not as bad as those four. What Ganon really hates is safety. It doesn't matter what your character can do, you give Ganon an inch, you're in for world of hurt. Ganon will do anything from dealing 50% to taking an entire stock. Ganon less/more reward or has an easier/harder time getting in depending on the character. But these four basically go "nope" and pester Ganon to death with their safety. Sheik attacks stupid fast and has needles, ZSS has Paralyzer and Flip Kick, Rosa has Luma, and Villager... is Villager.

Sonic needs to actually approach Ganon since he has less range, and even though Sonic is a pain to react to, it doesn't change the fact that Sonic is the one approaching and Ganon is the one defending.

Pika's edgeguarding is excellent and QA is a pain, but his projectile is rather slow, meaning that Ganon won't have to work that hard to approach, certainly not as bad as the Foul Four. And Pikachu is light, which is an exponential advantage for Ganondorf. Pika will usually be dying to F-tilt below 90% and Smashes will kill much lower.

 

[jahkzheng]

True enough. My experience is limited but my impression is they're up there on the "annoying matchups" list. Like I said, perhaps not as bad as the other characters you mentioned, but still bad. Villager is an odd matchup because it doesn't feel so bad at times, but can feel nearly unwinnable at others. Basically, getting caught offstage against a good Villager is pretty much an auto death, especially if you don't have room to move around before going for the ledge. When you're in close to him though on stage, he can be fairly predictable and quite manageable. Then again, I've not run into a truly scary one, so, again, limited knowledge here. Of those 4 though, Villager is the one I'm most inclined to think might be slightly better. It's pretty dependent on us not getting caught offstage though, so maybe not.

I'd like to know what the Sonic strategy is though. I especially have a hard time reacting online I think, but it seems like it would be really tough regardless.

 

[Ffamran]

You guys and gals were aware of this, right?

@ Ffamran
Randomly remembered you asking about Dark Fists' disjoint forever ago. Here, have this:

And this is why Pon loves abusing the uppercut.

 

[Blobface]

You guys and gals were aware of this, right?


And this is why Pon loves abusing the uppercut.

The sheer presence of Ganondorf scares the opponent so hard they jump upwards at a fatal velocity.

Don't ask how it scares a Gooey Bomb. It just does.

On a side note, F-air IIRC has very low Base Knockback. Has anyone found any sort of combo potential from this? Also, could U-air's horizontal knockback also be useful for tech reads onstage at lower %'s? it knocks you very close to the ground, and even when not autocancelled it's landing lag is fairly low.

 

[jahkzheng]

The sheer presence of Ganondorf scares the opponent so hard they jump upwards at a fatal velocity.

Don't ask how it scares a Gooey Bomb. It just does.

On a side note, F-air IIRC has very low Base Knockback. Has anyone found any sort of combo potential from this? Also, could U-air's horizontal knockback also be useful for tech reads onstage at lower %'s? it knocks you very close to the ground, and even when not autocancelled it's landing lag is fairly low.

Tipman to choke at low and mid percents is something I do as often as I can pretty much. It's not so much a tech read as it is a follow up. The opponent goes into hitstun and slides and at low percents it's pretty safe to go straight into choke upon landing.

I've also managed to tech read an opponent after a fair a couple times. Both times, it was the back end of fair that comes out behind Ganon and launches the opponent horizontally behind you. At low percents they can go into trip state and you can try to immediately tilt or choke punish them, or just read their roll or get up attack.

The very tail end of tipman can put opponents into trip state too, but I've only managed it on tall characters and it doesn't always seem to work. Every time I've done it in match, it was by accident. I can't pull it off consistently in training either. It works at a wide range of percents though.

Although, I should say that my fair trips weren't really on purpose either, but it's something I've been able to repeat in training at low percents fairly consistently. Like tipman though, it doesn't seem to want to work on short characters so well. It's best used when your back is turned to your opponent, or rather a read of when your opponent will be right behind you. You just short hop and fair while jumping backwards. It's utility is all in the trip at low percents though since a move like dair or bair, even though bair hits higher, are usually safer and easier to pull off options in similar positions. Fair can surprise though and the knockback of the back end of the move is as good as the front end knockback, so at high percents it's a good option outside of the tripping it can cause at low percents.

For as inconsistent as the tipman trip is, I land it much more often, (several times so far as opposed to just twice in a match), simply because uair is something I zone and approach with. It's a safer move in general and you can use it in much the same way as you would for the trip and still get something out of it even if you don't pull off the trip. Plus, having the ability to work at a wide range or percents is pretty great too and further increases your chances at pulling it off.

 

[WorstSSBPlayerInTheWorld]

Does Dark Fists have super armour for the whole move or just the start

 

[Blobface]

Does Dark Fists have super armour for the whole move or just the start

It has Super Armor from frames 5-14, and the first hit is on frame 15. So yeah, it only has super armor for the first part, which is hilariously abusable against aerials.

 

[jmanup85]

I have a question on Gerudo follow ups. So I know that if a character doesn't tech that we have to read what the next move is and so on and so forth. When I Gerudo someone and they hold either left or right and land without teching, would dtilt work in that situation? Is it character specific? Teching is a whole other issue since I'm not used it playing people who tech alot but A2ZOMG was teching alot and that threw me off a bit but I can figure that out. The dtilt question is something I've been wondering for awhile though

 

[Z1GMA]

I have a question on Gerudo follow ups. So I know that if a character doesn't tech that we have to read what the next move is and so on and so forth. When I Gerudo someone and they hold either left or right and land without teching, would dtilt work in that situation? Is it character specific? Teching is a whole other issue since I'm not used it playing people who tech alot but A2ZOMG was teching alot and that threw me off a bit but I can figure that out. The dtilt question is something I've been wondering for awhile though

Yes, it's character specific. Some characters can always be hit by Dtilt if they don't tech, while a handful can always move before your Dtilt hits. You should look at the Gerudo Follow-up Chart. Don't remember exactly where it's located, though.

 

[Kyogokudo]

Yes, it's character specific. Some characters can always be hit by Dtilt if they don't tech, while a handful can always move before your Dtilt hits. You should look at the Gerudo Follow-up Chart. Don't remember exactly where it's located, though.

This one ? http://i.imgur.com/9LhItgJ.png
I also have one question regarding dtilt follow-up. Using this chart, dtilt should work on DK, right? But sometimes it will just miss even if the player didn't tech it. Jab will always works in that case though. One DK player told me that I couldn't hit him with dtilt because he mashed a. How does that thing work? Does it work with every characters or only some of them?

 

[adom4]

This one ? http://i.imgur.com/9LhItgJ.png
I also have one question regarding dtilt follow-up. Using this chart, dtilt should work on DK, right? But sometimes it will just miss even if the player didn't tech it. Jab will always works in that case though. One DK player told me that I couldn't hit him with dtilt because he mashed a. How does that thing work? Does it work with every characters or only some of them?

D-tilt doesn't work on DK, only jab.

 

[Kyogokudo]

D-tilt doesn't work on DK, only jab.

My bad, I checked the "do nothing" column and was just confused by what that guy said. I thought dtilt could hit DK just because he's big.

 

[Blobface]

What Down-B would you recommend for ZSS? Dropkick is excellent against Paralyzer, but having both Dark Fists and Wizkick makes pursuing Ganon for more damage incredibly risky.

 

[Z1GMA]

What Down-B would you recommend for ZSS? Dropkick is excellent against Paralyzer, but having both Dark Fists and Wizkick makes pursuing Ganon for more damage incredibly risky.

I see where you're comming from - I'd still use WDK, though, since she can normally gimp you pretty easily.
And like you said, WDK is better for approaching/punishing.

 

[Glennwood]

Sonic may be nearly as bad as those other matchups. Same with Pika. Probably 40:60 at best. That's just my assessment based on what they're capable of and how hard they can be to punish. Also just what I've heard on this board.

Pika maybe, I don't think sonic is too bad if you plan accordingly. Sonic is the type of character that makes you make mistakes but isn't as dangerous as he seems. 9/10 in my experiences sonic is predictable, and easy to bait into getting hit by Ganon's Dair. Now it all depends on how smart a sonic plays but I often see them abuse the same moves which is often their downfall. The key to sonic is don't get flustered by the speed he has, and just analyze how he is being played, if you notice a pattern in what they do, start punishing, hard.

 

[Godman]

popping back up on here again for another question..

I have been playing ganondorf now and I have noticed his bad MUs are really bad so my question is this:

Who is a good secondary to make up for some of ganondorf's super abysmal MUs like the ones that were mentioned a few posts ago? I assume it is going to be someone that can avoid projectiles or at least deal with them...

 

[Blobface]

popping back up on here again for another question..

I have been playing ganondorf now and I have noticed his bad MUs are really bad so my question is this:

Who is a good secondary to make up for some of ganondorf's super abysmal MUs like the ones that were mentioned a few posts ago? I assume it is going to be someone that can avoid projectiles or at least deal with them...

Ganon's only secondary-worthy matchups are Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, and Villager, so any character who does well against those four should be good.

A few suggestions are: The wielder of the triforce of power, the only male of the gerudo, and the King of Evil.

In other words I don't actually know who that is

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think ZSS is a fair matchup for Ganon, personally. She's really light and Ganon does decently hitting her out of her Down-B in juggle and edgeguard situations. While her midrange options are very good, she has to fundamentally make a punishable guess to get momentum. Read the grab or DA, avoid getting gimped, and DI towards her if you sense an Up-B juggle.