Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[A2ZOMG]

It would be kind of good if he got super armor even while reversing and/or punching though. It'd be a safe move if he was getting juggled.

SA on aerial reverse WB especially would be pretty impressive, because the move's massive range and shield damage actually gives it unique spacing applications.

In contrast, I can't think of as many good uses for armored aerial reverse WP.

In a perfect world though, I would want B reverse aerial Wizkick and Dropkick to be an option. It might actually be potentially OP though especially in the case of Dropkick.

 

[Godman]

As a new(er ish kinda) player I have a few questions about the king of evil...

1. What are his best OoS options? I know grab out of shield is generally go to for everyone in the game but given the king's poor grab range... i would like to know his other good options..

2. While I play against other players I find myself using Ftilt. A lot. Specially or punishing and Edgeguarding but I never approach with it. I realized it doesn't have fantastic range and it could kill if it isn't staled, should I be using Dtilt and Jab more often or is Ftilt fine to use fairly often?

3. I apologize if this one has been asked already but does ganon have any good approach options other than Bair? For when he is forced to approach against thinks like falco lasers?

Thanks for any answers in advance

 

[the king of murder]

As a new(er ish kinda) player I have a few questions about the king of evil...

1. What are his best OoS options? I know grab out of shield is generally go to for everyone in the game but given the king's poor grab range... i would like to know his other good options..

2. While I play against other players I find myself using Ftilt. A lot. Specially or punishing and Edgeguarding but I never approach with it. I realized it doesn't have fantastic range and it could kill if it isn't staled, should I be using Dtilt and Jab more often or is Ftilt fine to use fairly often?

3. I apologize if this one has been asked already but does ganon have any good approach options other than Bair? For when he is forced to approach against thinks like falco lasers?

Thanks for any answers in advance

Welcome man. Your soul belongs to us now.

1. If your opponent is attacking in the air, try Nair or Uair OoS. Both are his fastest options, is relatively safe and it can give you momentum if it hits. For ground, try Dash Attack OoS and his D/F-tilt. If your opponent has a fast jab(anything that is under frame 6) and you are in range of it, you should just get out because the jab will come out faster than anything else we do.

2. That is up to you. F-tilt has many uses. It can be used as a good spacing tool, good punishment tool for rolls(pivot ftilt), spotdodges, it is still a fast kill option even if it is stale at high percent. Of course his other moves can cover the job just as well, smash attacks can punish rolls, d-tilt can be used for spacing and everything else in Ganons moveset can be used as a kill option. F-tilt is one of his fastest options and its also good for edgeguarding high recovering lil macs.

Personally, I use d-tilt a lot as a damage racking move because it does a lot of things what f-tilt does plus it can set up juggle potential for Ganon.

3. Gotta be patient when approaching. Don't get frustrated with projectiles, space a lot with your safe moves and powershield all the time until you find an opening. Also, with what moves we approach is up to the MU sometimes. I've been told FF Nair is good for approaching against anyone who isn't a tether grabber. Dash Attack OoS is also decent against projectile users.

 

[Big O]

Is the super armor effected by how much damage Ganon has taken?
Also can you get super armor if you start it from a short hop but land on the ground before its finished?

You only get SA on the punch if you are on the ground and don't B-Reverse it by frame 11. This means you can start it in the air then land and get SA, but you have to start it pretty low to the ground to get it to work. For WB, you have to be on the ground by frame 8.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You only get SA on the punch if you are on the ground and don't B-Reverse it by frame 11. This means you can start it in the air then land and get SA, but you have to start it pretty low to the ground to get it to work. For WB, you have to be on the ground by frame 8.

Thanks for clarifying this. I thought it was just the grounded version alone.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Is it possible to B-Reverse fast enough to get SA?

 

[Xinc]

I don't think so.

 

[WorstSSBPlayerInTheWorld]

how do you deal with rosalina??

 

[A2ZOMG]

how do you deal with rosalina??

You have to play very aggressively in this matchup. The one thing you don't want her to do in this matchup is get away with Luma zoning for free. She will pick you apart if you don't play proactively.

Try your best to space in a way that is able to hit her and Luma simultaneously. Rosalina's punishes are much less brutal without Luma. Furthermore, F-throw is a godsend in this matchup. It will damage Luma simultaneously, which keeps you safe from retaliation.

You shouldn't be afraid to occasionally take really big risks in this matchup. She is one of the lightest characters in the game, and she's also fairly tall making her easy to connect aerials against. Throwing out a random F-smash here and there isn't a bad idea when chances are, you'll kill Luma at the bare minimum, and of course in a best case scenario you won't be complaining if she actually gets hit by it.

 

[_Magus_]

how do you deal with rosalina??

I love this MU. It's where we get to cut loose and play aggressively.

While Rosa is faster, she doesn't have very good range without Luma. As A2ZOMG said, play aggressively, get in her face, and also try to get that Luma out of there to give yourself even more room to pressure. I would avoid Flame Choke in this MU as well. Since Luma is able to attack while Rosa is down, you're almost guaranteed to be punished every time you choke her. If customs are on, go with flame chain for your side b. The great damage and insane amount of hits (10 hits!) are great for pressuring either Rosalina or luma, and you'll actually get some mileage out of your side b, as Luma completely negates Flame Choke.

 

[Xinc]

how do you deal with rosalina??

I can't wait till we get to Rosa on the guide.

Basically both @ A2ZOMG and @ _Magus_ have good points. Luma is the main crux of Rosalina's advantage, but without it or if separated, Ganondorf has a far easier time giving her trouble. Wizkick is a punishable move but good to get both of them as well.

 

[_Magus_]

I can't wait till we get to Rosa on the guide.

Basically both @ A2ZOMG and @ _Magus_ have good points. Luma is the main crux of Rosalina's advantage, but without it or if separated, Ganondorf has a far easier time giving her trouble. Wizkick is a punishable move but good to get both of them as well.

Just to clarify, you mean wizkick is a good punish, right? Cuz punishable would mean Rosa can punish it. XD

Edit: Nvm, read that wrong. Sorry.

 

[jmanup85]

I think that the wizkick against Rosa is too punishable and shouldn't be relied upon at all. Honestly I just hate fighting her. Ganon needs a better grab and jab asap.

 

[Xinc]

Just to clarify, you mean wizkick is a good punish, right? Cuz punishable would mean Rosa can punish it. XD

Edit: Nvm, read that wrong. Sorry.

no, I meant as an out of the blue move, or for wizkick ledge cancel shenanigans. I personally like Wizkick, and then cancel to back air.

Overall, in this matchup, it's inferior to WDK, but the raw power it has, especially if fresh, allows for killing Rosalina near the edge around 60-70 if DI'ed wrong.

 

[adom4]

Any tips against DDD?
He's probably my personal toughest matchup, i barely win against them.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Any tips against DDD?
He's probably my personal toughest matchup, i barely win against them.

I usually N-air vs the Gordo in neutral and try my best to space F-air and D-tilt and whiff punish with Flame Choke. I don't think it's a very complicated matchup...just it can be really boring given you're going to end up waiting a lot against his zoning and walls and he can be deceptively hard to juggle outside of very specific percent ranges due to his multiple jumps. Plus probably won't get edgeguarded very easily which means you need to rely on generic ledge pressure reads to kill him.

Gungnir has some matches against a DDD if you want to check them on nicovideo. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25439090

 

[_Magus_]

I used nair to deal with Gordo before the patch, and the decrease in ending lag only increased nair as a good anti-gordo option.

We also have a lot more Flame Choke followups against DDD. For stages, I would go battlefield. It limits the usefulness of his Gordo, and makes it easier for Ganondorf to get up close and personal vs. DDD. Plus, grounded FC pops DDD up on the lower platform, creating even more followups for us. See my guide for more info about Battlefield and its platform tech:
http://smashboards.com/guides/the-k...ndorfs-best-stage-new-stuff-added-1-9-15.168/

 

[Naroghin]

I use fair when coming back to stage from higher up to reflect Gordos. Always seems to shoot it straight back no matter the original angle. I "sweap" the vertical area just off the edge and then recover low. Relies on timing, but sends the gordo back super fast. If spaced right you can often hit D3 with fair and then watch as the gordo nails him shortly after. First time I did this I SD'd cause I was gawking at D3 biting it hard.

EDIT: @ A2ZOMG said it best, though, considering the general MU. The biggest thing is to just be patient.

 

[Supersheikbros]

So I've not won against a ganon in a long time and I see him being used a lot more in for glory which is really annoying! I main sheik and fox so can anyone give me tips on how to beat ganon thanks

 

[CannonGanon]

I got really mad at this Robin player from Japan that spams literally everything. Any tips for fighting Robin?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I got really mad at this Robin player from Japan that spams literally everything. Any tips for fighting Robin?

Be ready to punish Arc fire with aerials. Rolling forwards as a read can be sometimes viable for punishing his commitments. Just roll away if he does Arc fire or Arcthunder on your shield. Focus on playing safely and seeing where he commits. Be more aggressive when Arc fire is used up but be careful about the book toss.

 

[jahkzheng]

Was talking in the Fox board recently since I've been playing some Fox. They were talking about Fox's offstage game and how it isn't very good. I mentioned ledge trump as something that's pretty nice in Ganon's game since he can follow up with bair in a lot of cases and wondered if Fox could do something similar. Fox's bair isn't so great for this though, according to many Fox players, because it's too slow and Fox falls so fast. It has nice knockback, but the startup is enough that it can be dodged on reaction apparently and when Fox misses, due to his fast fall speed, he's forced to upB to the ledge, which is a bad spot asking for a gimp. And not only can it be dodged, it can be beat. Specifically, Sheik's fair was mentioned as something that could frame beat Fox's bair after a ledge trump.

Now, to the point of mentioning this here. That last part had me wondering. I don't know the frames on Ganon's bair, but I guess it must be a bit faster than Fox's. More than that, I know it's something that wins trades. But, could someone airdodge our trump to bair setup, or even frame beat it? Can Sheik's fair neutralize our trump to bair by hitting us before it even came out? Or does the reach and power of it mean that it'll always trade favorably with Sheik's fair?

...

Btw, if anyone is curious. The Foxes said that after a ledge trump, Fox's best option is dsmash. The idea being that once you push an opponent off the edge, their second ledge grab is vulnerable and Fox's dsmash is pretty good for capitalizing on this vulnerability.

 

[Naroghin]

So I've not won against a ganon in a long time and I see him being used a lot more in for glory which is really annoying! I main sheik and fox so can anyone give me tips on how to beat ganon thanks

Just remember that Ganon's game is based mostly around punishes and reads. If you are continually losing to Ganons it's probably due to one or both of the following: a)Over-committing to punishable attacks/options; b) using the same options without mixing it up so Ganon can "read" what you will do and act in preparation for what he thinks you'll do. Sheik and Fox tend to be rush-down characters, so if you play too aggressively and rely on speed alone, Ganon will make you pay dearly for it. Keep in mind: one solid hit from Ganon can equal 2-3 of your own hits and he kills much earlier.

Here is the core information you need; it is up to you to transmute it into victory.

 

[Supersheikbros]

Just remember that Ganon's game is based mostly around punishes and reads. If you are continually losing to Ganons it's probably due to one or both of the following: a)Over-committing to punishable attacks/options; b) using the same options without mixing it up so Ganon can "read" what you will do and act in preparation for what he thinks you'll do. Sheik and Fox tend to be rush-down characters, so if you play too aggressively and rely on speed alone, Ganon will make you pay dearly for it. Keep in mind: one solid hit from Ganon can equal 2-3 of your own hits and he kills much earlier.

Here is the core information you need; it is up to you to transmute it into victory.

Thanks alot

 

[Shogger]

Was talking in the Fox board recently since I've been playing some Fox. They were talking about Fox's offstage game and how it isn't very good. I mentioned ledge trump as something that's pretty nice in Ganon's game since he can follow up with bair in a lot of cases and wondered if Fox could do something similar. Fox's bair isn't so great for this though, according to many Fox players, because it's too slow and Fox falls so fast. It has nice knockback, but the startup is enough that it can be dodged on reaction apparently and when Fox misses, due to his fast fall speed, he's forced to upB to the ledge, which is a bad spot asking for a gimp. And not only can it be dodged, it can be beat. Specifically, Sheik's fair was mentioned as something that could frame beat Fox's bair after a ledge trump.

Now, to the point of mentioning this here. That last part had me wondering. I don't know the frames on Ganon's bair, but I guess it must be a bit faster than Fox's. More than that, I know it's something that wins trades. But, could someone airdodge our trump to bair setup, or even frame beat it? Can Sheik's fair neutralize our trump to bair by hitting us before it even came out? Or does the reach and power of it mean that it'll always trade favorably with Sheik's fair?

...

Btw, if anyone is curious. The Foxes said that after a ledge trump, Fox's best option is dsmash. The idea being that once you push an opponent off the edge, their second ledge grab is vulnerable and Fox's dsmash is pretty good for capitalizing on this vulnerability.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that a properly executed ledge trump (one where you grab the ledge JUST after your opponent) will not leave them time to react to Bair. The only way to avoid it is to buffer any ledge getup option (jump, roll, attack, climb up).

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I got really mad at this Robin player from Japan that spams literally everything. Any tips for fighting Robin?

Robin is actually a fairly fun match-up, and dead even on both sides. Both characters rely heavily on reads.

Robin uses projectiles, Ganon uses fists but kills earlier. Don't worry about getting hit too often, try predicting the arch fires with a full hop towards Robin and then punish accordingly. I have killed many Robins with fair and bair this way. Other than that, be ready to shield on reaction a lot. Do not spotdodge, as Ganon's spotdodge is horrible and characters like Robin can exploit it with ease. Just reset the spacing with back roll, or try rolling behind him. Remember to use rolls as more of a movement tool than an avoidance tool.

 

[CannonGanon]

Robin is actually a fairly fun match-up, and dead even on both sides. Both characters rely heavily on reads.

Robin uses projectiles, Ganon uses fists but kills earlier. Don't worry about getting hit to often, try predicting the arch fires with a full hop towards Robin and then punish accordingly. I have killed many Robins with fair and bair this way. Other than that, be ready to shield on reaction a lot. Do not spotdodge, as Ganon's spotdodge is horrible and characters like Robin can exploit it with ease. Just reset the spacing with back roll, or try rolling behind him. Remember to use rolls as more of a movement tool then an avoidance tool.

Wow. Thanks for the advice. The guy was really smart so I got my butt whooped. I've been off-learning Shulk so my Ganon was rusty. I didn't know Ganon's spot dodge was that bad, I'll try and not use it more :3

As well, I have one or two more questions regarding Ganondorf. One, I had some really fun matches with a Fox and Sonic, but, I bet you get where I'm going, I sucked at fighting both of them. The guy switched to Ike and I anally devastated him but otherwise I lost to those two combo characters. Any tips for dealing with the fast, combo kind? I know Ganon gets trapped really easily.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Wow. Thanks for the advice. The guy was really smart so I got my butt whooped. I've been off-learning Shulk so my Ganon was rusty. I didn't know Ganon's spot dodge was that bad, I'll try and not use it more :3

As well, I have one or two more questions regarding Ganondorf. One, I had some really fun matches with a Fox and Sonic, but, I bet you get where I'm going, I sucked at fighting both of them. The guy switched to Ike and I anally devastated him but otherwise I lost to those two combo characters. Any tips for dealing with the fast, combo kind? I know Ganon gets trapped really easily.

Fox requires you to have more of an aggressive play. He has some very quick moves, so you'll always have to be on your tiptoes against him. Through out the game, play him as if he has no projectile. His projectile doesn't stun you, so totally ignore it, and you won't have to worry about shielding from afar.

Sonic on the other hand is to be played a lot like Diddy Kong. Very campy, do not approach them, let them do their thing and defend their quick shield pokes moves appropriately. Approach with a committed read, and do not go too heavy with combos. It's more of a pick the right moment and attack, then retreat. Don't let them guess where you will roll, when you're in the air for example, land then roll away to force them to attack, and then punish with a read.

Diddy Kong and Sonic are actually do-able for Ganon, but you have to be very campy and have lengthy game plays. If your games are coming out short against characters like those, then you aren't playing right.

Sheik, Rosalina, and Fox are characters where you have to play more aggressive.

 

[Enrel]

HEy guys, I really enjoy being a powerhouse that is Ganon from time to time, but doing things like For Glory makes for a frustrating time especially when someone plays a keepaway Sheik. While I know keep away is very much a weakness to this lord of darkness, but what exactly is it that one can do against keep away?

 

[jahkzheng]

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that a properly executed ledge trump (one where you grab the ledge JUST after your opponent) will not leave them time to react to Bair. The only way to avoid it is to buffer any ledge getup option (jump, roll, attack, climb up).

If this is true, I wonder if it has to do with the mechanics of trumping itself or bair's speed. The Fox board saying that Fox's bair isn't fast enough to protect against all reactions got me thinking obviously. If it's as much to do with the speed of the move, then I guess Ganon's bair is faster than Fox's? Not sure. If it's the mechanics of trumping, then maybe the Fox's are mistaken and they might be able to beat a Sheik fair after a trump because trumping would leave Sheik unable to react immediately or fast enough.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@ A2ZOMG Do you remember how to cancel the lag on Ganon's dair? I've constantly been told there's a method to reduce the lag, but can't seem to find out how this is done.

 

[Vermanubis]

Land a hit on the last frame before you touch the ground, I think.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2ZOMG Do you remember how to cancel the lag on Ganon's dair? I've constantly been told there's a method to reduce the lag, but can't seem to find out how this is done.

You have to land frame perfect. I am not sure it works on shields. The lag cancel is a glitch where if you land frame perfect, you enter your landing animation while your opponent is in hitlag. This works for all aerials but depends on your hitlag modifiers. Ganon's Dair is a move with a lot of hitlag and thus benefits noticeably.

Practice on Charizard's tail to understand the timing.

 

[DasPoof]

Can anyone give me some advice on who to practice the Ganon footstool combo on?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

You have to land frame perfect. I am not sure it works on shields. The lag cancel is a glitch where if you land frame perfect, you enter your landing animation while your opponent is in hitlag. This works for all aerials but depends on your hitlag modifiers. Ganon's Dair is a move with a lot of hitlag and thus benefits noticeably.

Practice on Charizard's tail to understand the timing.

It doesn't work on shields. Depending on the height of the opponent, you might not be able to do it with a full hop. Maybe I'm crazy, but I can only do it with DJ on taller characters.

 

[Jiom]

Can anyone give me some advice on who to practice the Ganon footstool combo on?

Sheik, diddy, or any of the characters that you will without a doubt see often in tournament.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Can anyone give me some advice on who to practice the Ganon footstool combo on?

I prefer Little Mac, but I'm not quite sure how to get a fast fall instead of a jump after footstool, @ A2ZOMG

 

[A2ZOMG]

I prefer Little Mac, but I'm not quite sure how to get a fast fall instead of a jump after footstool, @ A2ZOMG

Ganondorf himself is actually a great character to practice the footstool combo on imo when you're trying to learn it. He's very tall, which makes him cover a lot of space on the ground when he's lying down so you don't worry too much about your horizontal spacing, however he's not fat either like Bowser, meaning you still have to learn the proper timing to do tipman U-air close to the ground as you would with most characters.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganondorf himself is actually a great character to practice the footstool combo on imo when you're trying to learn it. He's very tall, which makes him cover a lot of space on the ground when he's lying down so you don't worry too much about your horizontal spacing, however he's not fat either like Bowser, meaning you still have to learn the proper timing to do tipman U-air close to the ground as you would with most characters.

I see. How is the fast fall done?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I see. How is the fast fall done?

I'm not seeing why the fastfall specifically is a problem (remember in this game, fastfalls have to be inputted AFTER the aerial, which is why D-air spiking in this game is much easier). The most tricky part I would imagine is making sure you do a short footstool jump by lightly tapping the jump button.