Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[Big O]

So I've been playing around with WF vs WDK for a little bit in training mode to get more of a feel for what @ Ray_Kalm has been talking about regarding not being safe on hit early. My conclusion is that WF and WDK are both unsafe on hit at low %, but overall I think WDK is actually safer on hit earlier.

When I tested Ganon vs Ganon, I was able to punish his WF on hit from about 0-25%. At 0% WF is punishable on hit unless you get hit with the 12% damage hit. When hit by the 12% hit at 0%, if I DI'd up I could still punish it on hit by not being forced to tech. Unless I was hit by the later half of the kick, I could punish WF on hit until about 25%.

The same testing Ganon vs Ganon, I was only able to punish WDK on hit from about 0-11%. At 0% WDK is punishable on hit, but instead of being safer when close like WF (due to hitting with the stronger hit) it is safer from a distance. When hitting at max distance, only grab was fast enough to punish WDK at 0%. Once I got to the point where it induced tumble on the weak hit (11%), I was unable to punish WDK on hit anymore.

WDK having less endlag more than makes up for the fact that it has less knockback/hitstun as far as being safe on hit is concerned. I think in situations where you'd want to scare people with decent startup, straight hitbox, and punish spotdodges/rolls you can just flame choke or dash attack. Both are safer on hit at low%, safer on block, and do/lead to more damage. The only upside WF has on them is edge-canceling and distance, which WDK has too.

The best part about WF is the beast aerial knockback, but I think aerial WDK is also useful, just in different situations. Instead of baiting people below you into eating a truck, it lets you edgeguard from another angle. The mostly horizontal launch angle is nice for gimps, and the spike from WF is mostly outclassed by Dair/tipman.

Personally I would only use WF against short characters with a weak or non-existent projectile game. Otherwise the recovery and anti-projectile properties of WDK are too good to pass up on imo.

TL;DR Don't wizkick at 0%.

 

[Z1GMA]

and the spike from WF is mostly outclassed by Dair/tipman.

WF Diagonal Spike Trajectory too good, tho.

 

[Xinc]

WF Diagonal Spike Trajectory too good, tho.

That spike is godly. People were like wtfhax when they got hit by them.

 

[Burruni]

So, has anyone pieced together what part of Warlock Punch has Super Armor? I know the move isn't exactly competitive but considering I've had it (off of luck) tank a Rest with not so much as flinching and then killing a Puff from 10%, I feel a need to see how this actually works out.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So, has anyone pieced together what part of Warlock Punch has Super Armor? I know the move isn't exactly competitive but considering I've had it (off of luck) tank a Rest with not so much as flinching and then killing a Puff from 10%, I feel a need to see how this actually works out.

Not sure. I want to say the whole thing but it depends on the attack. I believe a reverse WP has no Super Armor at all though.

 

[Big O]

So, has anyone pieced together what part of Warlock Punch has Super Armor? I know the move isn't exactly competitive but considering I've had it (off of luck) tank a Rest with not so much as flinching and then killing a Puff from 10%, I feel a need to see how this actually works out.

It was already answered in this thread one page ago. You lose the super armor in the air and if you turn around during the punch. The super armor also ends just before the punch.

 

[Burruni]

It was already answered in this thread one page ago. You lose the super armor in the air and if you turn around during the punch. The super armor also ends just before the punch.

Thank you, sorry for being redundant.

 

[Xinc]

Alright, here's a really crappy quality video footage of Ganondorf killing with the grounded version of his WizKick on Rosalina. Granted it was close to the edge and she was at a mid-percent, but is she that light that the kick would kill?
(End of video)
Thoughts?

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UtIu-VOkvw&list=UUNwCxT_fwrt3nCAfnxUDZmQ

 

[SaltyKracka]

Alright, here's a really crappy quality video footage of Ganondorf killing with the grounded version of his WizKick on Rosalina. Granted it was close to the edge and she was at a mid-percent, but is she that light that the kick would kill?
(End of video)
Thoughts?

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UtIu-VOkvw&list=UUNwCxT_fwrt3nCAfnxUDZmQ

Rosa is one of the lightest characters in the game, but the obvious explanation for that death is bad vectoring, bad aerial movement after hitstun recovery, or both.

 

[Xinc]

Rosa is one of the lightest characters in the game, but the obvious explanation for that death is bad vectoring, bad aerial movement after hitstun recovery, or both.

Interesting. I'll look back into my 1.03 replays before I download the new one to determine anything else to see if we could use in 1.04

 

[JmacAttack]

I've found that Wizard's Foot is a very good approach option against Ness, because it eats PK thunder and PK fire, rendering those projectiles useless. I might even say we have a very favorable matchup against Ness as a whole, because our standard attacks all outrange his, his floatiness and up-B leave him vulnerable to Ganon's vicious air game, his dair can't reach us through Ganon's uair disjoint, and his projectiles straight up don't work in the face of our down-B.

This is great news for us, since Ness is looking like an otherwise high tier character, and having a favorable matchup against a high tier will put us on the map.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I like your optimism, but...the idea that our tilts and smashes outranging his matters is kind of ridiculous, seeing as he has literally no reason to use them instead of his aerials and projectiles which do beat us. Hard.

I mean, Wizard's Foot going though fire and (sometimes) thunder is useful, yes, but we get punished far harder for whiffing or getting blocked with WF than Ness does for getting hit by it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, not sure I believe Ness's aerials are as much of a problem as PKT juggles for Ganon. A few well placed B-airs and U-airs aren't something Ness wants to risk trading with. But once he starts juggling you, things get lame if he does it right. And then he doesn't need to work hard for KOs against Ganon, while Ganondorf sorta has to guess his way into successfully KOing Ness.

 

[Xinc]

Eh, not sure I believe Ness's aerials are as much of a problem as PKT juggles for Ganon. A few well placed B-airs and U-airs aren't something Ness wants to risk trading with. But once he starts juggling you, things get lame if he does it right. And then he doesn't need to work hard for KOs against Ganon, while Ganondorf sorta has to guess his way into successfully KOing Ness.

It is a bit of a guessing game, which is a bit difficult if you don't know your opponent. I'm a bit concerned about intercepting rising fair recoveries from Ness. How does one cope with it? Outside defensive measures.

 

[Z1GMA]

It is a bit of a guessing game, which is a bit difficult if you don't know your opponent. I'm a bit concerned about intercepting rising fair recoveries from Ness. How does one cope with it? Outside defensive measures.

A well-timed Fair goes around the hitboxes of his Fair, hitting him in the back from above, sorta, and knocks him out.
You can also jump over him, fall down, and reverse Uair him in the back.
When you feel confident, go for a Dair.

 

[Xinc]

A well-timed Fair goes around the hitboxes of his Fair, hitting him in the back from above, sorta, and knocks him out.
You can also jump over him, fall down, and reverse Uair him in the back.
When you feel confident, go for a Dair.

Thanks. That makes perfect sense.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Just gonna say that wizkick is probably the move to use in the sheik matchup.

Might not be, but ending those midrange footsies is a lifesaver.

 

[_Magus_]

So, was reading up on vectoring being removed and vertical kill moves being buffed, and then remembered:
Our U smash is by far our best smash.

Don't know if this is too significant, but hopefully it helps. We need any buff we can get.

Edit: On the Ness issue, it's not an MU that I enjoy too much, but I do find our side b followups to be more reliable against him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So, was reading up on vectoring being removed and vertical kill moves being buffed, and then remembered:
Our U smash is by far our best smash.

Don't know if this is too significant, but hopefully it helps. We need any buff we can get.

Edit: On the Ness issue, it's not an MU that I enjoy too much, but I do find our side b followups to be more reliable against him.

Eh, not sure I agree with that. F-smash is pretty ridiculous. Good for baiting, kills people at like 70% uncharged.

U-smash though is pretty great, covers a lot of the options we normally did with autocancel D-air.

 

[_Magus_]

Eh, not sure I agree with that. F-smash is pretty ridiculous. Good for baiting, kills people at like 70% uncharged.

U-smash though is pretty great, covers a lot of the options we normally did with autocancel D-air.

My main thing about U smash is that the IASA frames make it MUCH safer than our other smashes. You can use the U smash to bait an unsuspecting foe into trying to punish, then catching them with a quick sparta kick or jab to the face.

 

[jahkzheng]

Just going to add here that I seem to get most of my kills with aerial wizkick or fsmash, followed by uair gimps and off the top kills. Aerial Wizkick seems like something people should learn to handle but I've met lots of people online that just haven't adapted to it. There's situations where I think it'll almost always be a good option. Aggressive Sheiks and Zamis that try to uair or upB you dead pay dearly with Wizkick. But they have plenty of options on the ground so a wise one may fake an aerial approach to bait a wizkick to punish you out of. My experience so far has been good though. I just try not to abuse the weakness people have for it in hopes that I can make the utility and surprise of it last. I've beaten Fox's upsmash with aerial wizkick too but that might've been fortunate timing for me and coming down on him from the back.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just going to add here that I seem to get most of my kills with aerial wizkick or fsmash, followed by uair gimps and off the top kills. Aerial Wizkick seems like something people should learn to handle but I've met lots of people online that just haven't adapted to it. There's situations where I think it'll almost always be a good option. Aggressive Sheiks and Zamis that try to uair or upB you dead pay dearly with Wizkick. But they have plenty of options on the ground so a wise one may fake an aerial approach to bait a wizkick to punish you out of. My experience so far has been good though. I just try not to abuse the weakness people have for it in hopes that I can make the utility and surprise of it last. I've beaten Fox's upsmash with aerial wizkick too but that might've been fortunate timing for me and coming down on him from the back.

Aerial wizkick is a lifesaver no doubt. Has to be used with care, but the fact it exists forces your opponent to be careful when they juggle you. It's one of those things where if your opponent is afraid of it, they are more likely to just let you land safely, but if they don't respect it, then feel free to show them the penalty of ignorance. Just in general, that's the recurring theme with Ganondorf. You want your opponent to be afraid of you, and Ganondorf's moveset is very good at reinforcing this when you show them that they can only delay the inevitable, that your onslaught will not be stopped.

The main things you just have to be mindful of are projectiles and things like that pesky Master's Sword that you so dearly abhor. Also remember that D-air and N-air also serve their own purposes for landing as well.

 

[jahkzheng]

Aerial wizkick is a lifesaver no doubt. Has to be used with care, but the fact it exists forces your opponent to be careful when they juggle you. It's one of those things where if your opponent is afraid of it, they are more likely to just let you land safely, but if they don't respect it, then feel free to show them the penalty of ignorance. Just in general, that's the recurring theme with Ganondorf. You want your opponent to be afraid of you, and Ganondorf's moveset is very good at reinforcing this when you show them that they can only delay the inevitable, that your onslaught will not be stopped.

The main things you just have to be mindful of are projectiles and things like that pesky Master's Sword that you so dearly abhor. Also remember that D-air and N-air also serve their own purposes for landing as well.

Yeah, I've found nair is a pretty good option to break out of combos at lower percents. Wizkick is great for those that chase you too high at higher percents or try to stop a high recovery. I wish I used Dair more but aerial wizkick does better and is more forgiving with its timing in the air against aerial attacks with big or long lasting hitboxes. And when trying to land back on the stage against someone hanging out below you, Dair takes just a single shield input to avoid whereas the shockwave of wizkick often catches shielders - (I prefer to avoid trying to attack on my way down against someone waiting under me if I can help it though.) I need to find a way to mix Dair in more regardless. Right now I use it most to punish rolls or around the edge obviously like after a ledge cancel. Yes, I miss AC Dair lots~

Projectiles are still an issue for me. I mostly try aerial approaching, mixing in bairs and uairs and air dodges to close in with success mostly determined by how proficient a character is at actually hitting me when I'm vulnerable. Faced a Pac-man a while ago now that really had me against the ropes with his varied projectiles. I really had a hard time figuring what and when he'd throw his crap at me. I've had limited success with dashing into shield and dashing again as an approach. It's more direct in the eyes of the opponent and I'm poor at the inputs anyways.

 

[Zatchiel]

What is the window for teching Ganon's flame choke? I get them pretty inconsistently and it's annoying to be left exposed afterwards for no reason. I input for the tech as soon as the dark burst happens each and every time, and I doubt the connection is a deciding factor in every case.

 

[Shogger]

I've got two questions:

1) If I flame choke and my opponent just stands up (when in a MU without guaranteed tilts on unteched choke), how do I punish this reliably? I was thinking grab but haven't actually had the opportunity to try it yet.

2) Similarly, if my opponent is at the ledge and they just climb up in place, what do I do?

 

[MagiusNecros]

You could try to set up a opponent by using WP after a choke and make them get used to rolling behind you and then you can choke and Reverse WP them if they do what you expect them to do.

I probably need to do more testing against other players with Ganon myself.

 

[Shogger]

You could try to set up a opponent by using WP after a choke and make them get used to rolling behind you and then you can choke and Reverse WP them if they do what you expect them to do.

I probably need to do more testing against other players with Ganon myself.

While WP can sometimes work as a punish on getup attacks, the situation I'm referring to is when your opponent straight up rises from the ground by pressing up and then is able to act. Warlock Punch simply cannot punish that, there is no character with a standup animation that slow.

 

[jahkzheng]

Okay, wasn't sure where to put this but I didn't want to make a new thread and looking through the thread about how to deal with specific moves reminded me of this... but seeing as this isn't about a move so much as it's about a situation, I moved this here.

Anyways, dealt with a pretty good Dedede with a nasty Gordo edgeguard a few days ago. Gordo's on stage aren't too bad, but once you're recovering, sheesh... I just never really figured it out. He just would set up a short Gordo that would bounce around near the edge....

- Edge attack back on usually meant meeting the Gordo with my face and if not, then I was usually punished by the Dedede before I could hit it back.

- Roll back onto the edge was always punished by a nicely spaced and perfectly timed down smash by Dedede. I foolishly got caught in this a few times, but at low percents it was one of my better options at regaining some stage control oddly enough.

-Jumping up from the edge was hindered by the Gordo a lot of times and I couldn't get behind Dedede in the air due to him rolling back a lot in these situations. My only options here was wizkick down to hit the Gordo and hope not to get punished since my timing at hitting it with other aerials was poor, or to eat the Gordo and hope the Dedede rolled out of range of a punish assuming I'd try to get behind him. He liked to charge up an fsmash sometimes when I tried the jump, just to challenge me to get over his Gordo and behind him without letting myself get too low.

- And last, just hanging there or trying to knock it back with uair from off the edge was a dangerous game. Firstly, bad timing and you get gimped hard off the edge during your jump if you choose to aerial it this way... and even when I did hit it with a uair, it just harmlessly flew up not pressuring the Dedede at all. And if I hung there too long, another Gordo could be deployed or the first could just bouce towards the edge until it fell on my head and knocked me off my ledgegrab. I did try fair onto stage a couple times but mostly got a Gordo dropping on my head, due to poor timing perhaps, before getting punished there as well.

Didn't realize how dirty this tactic was until I actually met a Dedede that was obviously well practiced with it and didn't miss an opportunity to use it. My conclusion after much failure from the edge was to just not get on the edge or hope he failed to set a Gordo up on me. Easier said than done, heh. It was much more back and forth on stage and I at least I felt I had some control although he was still very good on stage center with me. But once I was on the edge, I just had to try and pick my poison more often than not and hope he didn't punish with something that would send me back to a "hanging off the edge again" position... or just plain killed me.

Was curious what experience and thoughts anyone had on this.

 

[jahkzheng]

I've got two questions:

1) If I flame choke and my opponent just stands up (when in a MU without guaranteed tilts on unteched choke), how do I punish this reliably? I was thinking grab but haven't actually had the opportunity to try it yet.

2) Similarly, if my opponent is at the ledge and they just climb up in place, what do I do?

If an opponent does this regularly after being choked, I'd think dtilt would still be a good option since your opponent would just be standing in front of you after choke. If they stand up in this way and go for jab or a quick attack, then you could treat it like it was a getup attack I suppose. Either shield and grab/attack, or space and attack them with something with range like another choke, ftilt, or fsmash if they give you just a bit of time. Dtilit is still an option here either from shield or space since it's got nice range as well as long as you can turn and deploy it quickly from spacing. I'm not sure why an opponent would just stand up after a choke but I like the sound of treating it like a getup attack with a sheild or a space. If they standup to grab you immediately, then the spacing option is the choice over the shielding option... and I do believe you'd have time to step away and attack punish quickly.

Usually it's good to space the edge unless you're going for a gimp or spike or edge trump. If you're going to let the opponent on the stage though, it's good to be standing near where a roll on would end for them so you can punish behind you if they try that. If you otherwise think they'll just getup from the edge or getup attack back on, you'll still be in a good position to set up a utilt perhaps. I like wizkick on getup attackers too since I can cut in on them from a safe distance. Someone just pulling themselves up without an attack I guess could try a shield grab on wizkick, but I'm not sure if the pressure would push them off. Either way, think your options on a character pulling themselves up without an attack would be similar to your options on a getup attacker... just a smaller window to punish.


Edit: Sorry for the double post. Figured someone else would sneak a post in between mine since I'm so slow, heh. And they're pretty separate thoughts that are long enough on their own.

 

[Z1GMA]

I've got two questions:

1) If I flame choke and my opponent just stands up (when in a MU without guaranteed tilts on unteched choke), how do I punish this reliably? I was thinking grab but haven't actually had the opportunity to try it yet.

2) Similarly, if my opponent is at the ledge and they just climb up in place, what do I do?

It depends on if your talking about acting on reaction or by presumption.

1) On reaction, Grab is great. By presumption, re-Gerudo, Fmash, Usmash, or even Dair. Kinda depends on their %.

2) On reaction, Grab or Ftilt. By presumption, Fsmash, Ftilt, etc... Whatever you feel will kill.

pro-tip: On some characters, especially tall ones, you can perform a buffered Rising SH Uair at ppl climbing up.
(Also OoS if hey GUA)
This sends them out with Ganon tight behind them, ready to throw out an additional buffered aerial.

 

[RAzul]

I think the Rosalina matchup is a blast because of how full-ham you have to play--with reward.

That moment when you finally backhand Luma off the stage.

Look at Rosalina.

And grin.

LOOOL!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I think the Rosalina matchup is a blast because of how full-ham you have to play--with reward.

That moment when you finally backhand Luma off the stage.

Look at Rosalina.

And grin.

Ganon only outright loses to one character in this game. And that is Rosalina. Everyone one else he beats, has a fair match-up, or loses slightly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganon only outright loses to one character in this game. And that is Rosalina. Everyone one else he beats, has a fair match-up, or loses slightly.

How do customs play into these matchups? From what I've seen of the Ganon vs. Rosalina Matchup, Ganon's biggest issue in default play is how Rosalina gimps him for free, and I'm curious if Ganon's custom options could help to fix this problem.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'd also like to say ROB has a good advantage over Ganon.
It's not as bad as Rosalina, but it's definitely bad.

@ HeavyLobster Flame Chain and WDK both help Ganon in the Recovery Department.
Especially WDK.

Sad thing about Flame Chain is that you lose Gerudo.
Note that Luma can sabotage your Gerudo Follow-ups, though, so Gerudo isn't really that great Vs her a lot of the times.

 

[Smog Frog]

hello, budding ganon main here. 2 questions:

what do i do to punish a getup attack from flame choke,

and how do i deal with juggles

 

[adom4]

hello, budding ganon main here. 2 questions:

what do i do to punish a getup attack from flame choke,

and how do i deal with juggles

Either shield or run & go for another choke (Though be careful, get up attacks do a lot of shield damage) or jump & wizkick, F-air or D-air.

 

[MagiusNecros]

hello, budding ganon main here. 2 questions:

what do i do to punish a getup attack from flame choke,

and how do i deal with juggles

If your opponent is dumb then surprise them with a Warlock Punch and see if they eat it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd also like to say ROB has a good advantage over Ganon.
It's not as bad as Rosalina, but it's definitely bad.

@ HeavyLobster Flame Chain and WDK both help Ganon in the Recovery Department.
Especially WDK.

Sad thing about Flame Chain is that you lose Gerudo.
Note that Luma can sabotage your Gerudo Follow-ups, though, so Gerudo isn't really that great Vs her a lot of the times.

I'm not sure I agree ROB is that difficult for Ganondorf. ROB has two shortcomings that Ganondorf really likes. For one, he's bad at edgeguarding low recoveries because his options for hitting below him are pretty bad. The second being he has a bad shield, which on top of him being a tall character makes him fairly easy for Ganondorf to challenge in midrange.

On top of ROB's nerfs to his best pokes and his generally low damage and KO power, I feel like Ganondorf does very well in this matchup. His throw combos are a bit annoying, and his laser is great for juggles, but mostly Ganondorf kills ROB way easier than the other way around. You just have to hold your ground until you are in midrange, and then your superior damage on moves that have similar or sometimes better range than ROB's will put you ahead.

I mean, Rosalina is primarily really annoying for Ganondorf because when she has Luma and throws you, she just walks offstage and D-airs, and you're kinda screwed without WDK to boost your recovery. ROB doesn't really have that. He can F-air you if you recover high, but his other options for reaching you if you recover low are either super difficult to land or aren't very threatening.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm not sure I agree ROB is that difficult for Ganondorf. ROB has two shortcomings that Ganondorf really likes. For one, he's bad at edgeguarding low recoveries because his options for hitting below him are pretty bad. The second being he has a bad shield, which on top of him being a tall character makes him fairly easy for Ganondorf to challenge in midrange.

On top of ROB's nerfs to his best pokes and his generally low damage and KO power, I feel like Ganondorf does very well in this matchup. His throw combos are a bit annoying, and his laser is great for juggles, but mostly Ganondorf kills ROB way easier than the other way around. You just have to hold your ground until you are in midrange, and then your superior damage on moves that have similar or sometimes better range than ROB's will put you ahead.

I mean, Rosalina is primarily really annoying for Ganondorf because when she has Luma and throws you, she just walks offstage and D-airs, and you're kinda screwed without WDK to boost your recovery. ROB doesn't really have that. He can F-air you if you recover high, but his other options for reaching you if you recover low are either super difficult to land or aren't very threatening.

Rob's Dair is disgustingly good at spiking ppl right before they sweetspot the ledge, recovering low. its vertical range is crazy and it stays out for hours - with the strong hitbox. His KO Power isn't that low. Usmash kills you at around 110, And Uthrow at around 130.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Pikachu has gotta be one of our toughest MU's.

We shield a shock, we get grabbed. We hop over, we eat a string of aerials. We get Uthrow'd, we get hit by thunder.

Ugh, Pikachu. -_-