Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[Kendude]

Anyone know how Warlock Punch's super armour works? I suspect it's like Yoshi's double jump where he can only take so much damage before it gets interrupted, but occasionally I get hit out of it by a single jab.

 

[Big O]

@ Kendude The super armor is only on grounded warlock punches. If you do it in the air or b-reversal it you won't get any super armor. There is also a small window of time where you run out of super armor before it hits, so it can still be interrupted with good timing. Hopefully this helps.

 

[Kendude]

That absolutely does. Thanks for that.

 

[Twoyears]

How do I fight DDD? His hammer seems like it outranges everything I do.

 

[Thinkaman]

How do I fight DDD? His hammer seems like it outranges everything I do.

When I can't figure out how to beat a move, I draw a random piece of paper out of a hat and do the move on it.

Somehow it always wins! But I suspect that is just because all the pieces of paper in the hat say "Wizard's Dropkick."

 

[_Magus_]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szd9f7i1Qo8
We probs don't have any guaranteed followups, but couldn't we bait the airdodge, then hit em with dash attack, wizkick, or side b when Wario hits the ground?

 

[LIQUID12A]

This is probably a stupidly generic question, but how improved is Ganon compared to Brawl?

I ask this because I have zero exp versus Ganon and got flattened by one a few days ago.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is probably a stupidly generic question, but how improved is Ganon compared to Brawl?

I ask this because I have zero exp versus Ganon and got flattened by one a few days ago.

Ganon himself barely changed, outside of F-air having 7 frames less landing lag, Flame Choke being techable, D-air not autocanceling, and Jab apparently having slightly faster startup. He more benefits from not getting edgehogged and everyone else doing like 7% a hit while Ganondorf's damage is literally untouched minus very small exceptions (mostly damage BUFFS in fact).

He generally still doesn't have a very easy answer to shields, as long as you are spotdodging Flame Choke in neutral. But Ganondorf is viable this game simply because absolutely nobody can kill faster than he can on a read. You might hit Ganondorf 6 times in this game, and then he hits you twice and suddenly is even. And once he gets you offstage, if he guesses right, you're probably dead. That hasn't changed from Brawl, just everyone else is much tamer in comparison.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

This is probably a stupidly generic question, but how improved is Ganon compared to Brawl?

I ask this because I have zero exp versus Ganon and got flattened by one a few days ago.

Was his name Kalm by any chance? Just kidding.

Ganondorf has improved greatly. He has some very great pros, but also a few horrible cons.

Pros:
- He has more reliable ways to get KOs now
- He lives longer not just because of the new edge mechanics, but he is also generally heavier.
- He feels more like Brawl Donkey Kong with heavy weight and early surprise kills.
- BAir resets his stance in the air to facing forward relatively well and quick, much like Marth's FAir in Brawl
- FTilt resets his spacing in the ground relatively fast and quick, and can actually give him situational advantages over the opponent
- His damage input is much higher per move, most of his moves can equal up to 2-3 opponent's moves
- His FTilt can automatically put some characters in positions in which they will not recover
- Wizard Kick is relatively quicker and does not get punished on lower percentages like it would in Brawl. It can also be used to punish rolls.
- You can control whether you want to Ganoncide or not if you grab your opponent on the ledge, and Ganoncide will always result in your victory now
- Has a wide variety of moves, all but a few kill. (B-Throw grab is the only kill potential grab)
- Can DACUS 1/3rd of FD now
- NAir comes out quicker and can surprise opponents and help get out of combos
- Aerial Wizkick can kill quite early
- Good against characters who can not apply heavy safe shield pressure (For example Lucario has a harder time shield pressuring as compared to Yoshi's amazing shield pressure)

That said, he has a few very horrible cons and these cons can be taken advantage of quite easily.

Cons:
- Very vulnerable to good projectile camping tools
- Shielding at spot and guessing what Ganon will do - you do not need to approach him, but at times he can force you to approach
- Horrible at face length as he has no quick out of shield option, quick jabbers and grabbers can attack him before his he time to react
- Gimpable recovery - if he is put off stage by a throw or a move, he can have a hard time recovering
- Combo easy, probably one of the easiest characters to combo at lower
percentages due to heavy build.

 

[Xinc]

Was his name Kalm by any chance? Just kidding.

Ganondorf has improved greatly. He has some very great pros, but also a few horrible cons.

Pros:
- He has more reliable ways to get KOs now
- He lives longer not just because of the new edge mechanics, but he is also generally heavier.
- He feels more like Brawl Donkey Kong with heavy weight and early surprise kills.
- BAir resets his stance in the air to facing forward relatively well and quick, much like Marth's FAir in Brawl
- FTilt resets his spacing in the ground relatively fast and quick, and can actually give him situational advantages over the opponent
- His damage input is much higher per move, most of his moves can equal up to 2-3 opponent's moves
- His FTilt can automatically put some characters in positions in which they will not recover
- Wizard Kick is relatively quicker and does not get punished on lower percentages like it would in Brawl. It can also be used to punish rolls.
- You can control whether you want to Ganoncide or not if you grab your opponent on the ledge, and Ganoncide will always result in your victory now
- Has a wide variety of moves, all but a few kill. (B-Throw grab is the only kill potential grab)
- Can DACUS 1/3rd of FD now
- NAir comes out quicker and can surprise opponents and help get out of combos
- Aerial Wizkick can kill quite early
- Good against characters who can not apply heavy safe shield pressure (For example Lucario has a harder time shield pressuring as compared to Yoshi's amazing shield pressure)

That said, he has a few very horrible cons and these cons can be taken advantage of quite easily.

Cons:
- Very vulnerable to good projectile camping tools
- Shielding at spot and guessing what Ganon will do - you do not need to approach him, but at times he can force you to approach
- Horrible at face length as he has no quick out of shield option, quick jabbers and grabbers can attack him before his he time to react
- Gimpable recovery - if he is put off stage by a throw or a move, he can have a hard time recovering
- Combo easy, probably one of the easiest characters to combo at lower
percentages due to heavy build.

That's pretty comprehensive. I feel that the meteor hitbox of the WizKick is extended a bit.

I'm also fairly certain that the Up B uppercut deals a bit more knockback and looks prettier. Up air can also kill.

Generally the game physics really helped Ganondorf out a lot more. Pretty much all his moves sans jab, nair, and throws can kill. Yes, even up air.

QUICK QUESTION: Who here has successfully done a DACUS WITHOUT the Gamecube adaptor. It's remarkably difficult, imo. And painful. Very painful. The things I do for our Lord... of evil.

 

[Twoyears]

Also assuming customs will be allowed wizard's dropkick is one of the greatest things that has ever happened to ganondorf.

 

[_Magus_]

So, need help with approaching. Sometime (especially against a good Rosaluma) it can be very hard to get in, let alone land a hit. Any advice?

Also, my offstage game needs help. I get a lot of kills from a surprise grounded wizkick offstage, but i need to know when and how to use Ganon's aerials.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So, need help with approaching. Sometime (especially against a good Rosaluma) it can be very hard to get in, let alone land a hit. Any advice?

Also, my offstage game needs help. I get a lot of kills from a surprise grounded wizkick offstage, but i need to know when and how to use Ganon's aerials.

You have to play hyper aggressively against Rosalina. You will lose that matchup trying to play it carefully in the conventional sense.

Specifically, you want to play aggressively in a way where when you attack Rosalina, you are swatting away Luma at minimum. Rosalina's punishes are primarily scary when she has Luma to give her extra damage, knockback, and combo opportunities. So by all means, if they're grouped and your best option to space against her is F-smash, just go for it. What's the worst Rosalina herself is going to do if she blocks it? At least if Luma isn't hitting you, you are less likely to get hurt badly.

And if you're in doubt offstage, both U-air and N-air cover a LOT of options offstage.

 

[_Magus_]

You have to play hyper aggressively against Rosalina. You will lose that matchup trying to play it carefully in the conventional sense.

Specifically, you want to play aggressively in a way where when you attack Rosalina, you are swatting away Luma at minimum. Rosalina's punishes are primarily scary when she has Luma to give her extra damage, knockback, and combo opportunities. So by all means, if they're grouped and your best option to space against her is F-smash, just go for it. What's the worst Rosalina herself is going to do if she blocks it? At least if Luma isn't hitting you, you are less likely to get hurt badly.

And if you're in doubt offstage, both U-air and N-air cover a LOT of options offstage.

Yeah, I play super aggro against Rosaluma. Bad example. Say Toon Link or Mega Man? Someone who's projectile camping pretty hard.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah those matchups, it's really always going to be a test of how patient you are with powershielding, fullhop airdodging, and slowly getting past their comfort zone. Not much else to be said other than really knowing your ranges on the ground. It's the old story of being a grappler.

Try to catch items when applicable too.

 

[_Magus_]

Yeah those matchups, it's really always going to be a test of how patient you are with powershielding, fullhop airdodging, and slowly getting past their comfort zone. Not much else to be said other than really knowing your ranges on the ground. It's the old story of being a grappler.

Try to catch items when applicable too.

Back to the trenches then. Thanks A2Z.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think the Rosalina matchup is a blast because of how full-ham you have to play--with reward.

That moment when you finally backhand Luma off the stage.

Look at Rosalina.

And grin.

 

[Xinc]

I think the Rosalina matchup is a blast because of how full-ham you have to play--with reward.

That moment when you finally backhand Luma off the stage.

Look at Rosalina.

And grin.

I really don't like playing Rosa v Ganon. It's a whole game of patience (and in my case, looking for an opportunity to get that down throw to get the combo started). Not to say it isn't fun, but it's extremely mind boggling, knowing your choke follow ups are very limited with Rosa, more than normal.

 

[Thinkaman]

I really don't like playing Rosa v Ganon. It's a whole game of patience (and in my case, looking for an opportunity to get that down throw to get the combo started). Not to say it isn't fun, but it's extremely mind boggling, knowing your choke follow ups are very limited with Rosa, more than normal.

Flame Choke might be better than Flame Chain in certain matchups.

This is not one of them.

 

[Xinc]

Flame Choke might be better than Flame Chain in certain matchups.

This is not one of them.

Too true. Flame Chain's multihit properties force Rosalina to shield. I believe that if she attempts shield grabbing, the hit would force her away and give you more safety. Also, stunning the Luma with this move is a large plus.

I'd say that, even if we rarely use Warlock Punch, the Warlock Blade is a better alternative due to the safety of the range.

Wizard's Dropkick is also the better move for his customs because it can avoid any Luma shenanigans.

Thoughts?

 

[Thinkaman]

Too true. Flame Chain's multihit properties force Rosalina to shield. I believe that if she attempts shield grabbing, the hit would force her away and give you more safety. Also, stunning the Luma with this move is a large plus.

Grabs in general are just way worse against Rosaluma. Flame Chain may be easy to block, but in this matchup it still kills Luma on block, so that's a pretty nice worst case scenario for Ganon.

I'd say that, even if we rarely use Warlock Punch, the Warlock Blade is a better alternative due to the safety of the range.

There are often situations where you can force someone to block or dodge Warlock Blade; in these cases, Luma still dies. Once again a nice worst case outcome.

Wizard's Dropkick is also the better move for his customs because it can avoid any Luma shenanigans.

I'm highly skeptical of any 1v1 matchup in which Ganon should not take Wizard's Dropkick. But yeah, it does wreck Rosaluma because it beats Speedy Star Bit.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'm highly skeptical of any 1v1 matchup in which Ganon should not take Wizard's Dropkick. But yeah, it does wreck Rosaluma because it beats Speedy Star Bit.

I could think of half a dozen scenarios why WDK may not be the right choice for certain matchups and situations.

WDK isn't the to go to move all the time.

 

[Thinkaman]

I could think of half a dozen scenarios why WDK may not be the right choice for certain matchups and situations.

WDK isn't the to go to move all the time.

Examples?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Examples?

Wizard Foot:

In the air: Provides a safezone below, this coupled with the massive killing power it has benefits Ganon greatly. If you had WDK in this position (in the air), you would simply have the option to retreat behind the opponent - and that can get predictable. Your opponent may be able to bait that out, and knows that he can play under you more often.

On the ground during early percentages: Coupled with flame choke, can limit the what your opponent can do. Your can't simply stand in shield or roll away unpunished. WDK is less effective in this situation because, not only can it get you punished during early percentages, but it can only really punish rolls if they are at a particular distance, while Wizard Foot can punish rolls near normal flame choke distance (much closer to Ganon).

On the ground: Can get you some very good follow up with cancels, or with the jump you get off air. WDK can get cancelled as well, but requires precise position, the two directions of the stages every time. Wizard Foot can hit, and still get a cancel - which is the bulk of Ganon's combo game.

Momentum stoppage: The existence of the stoppage of Ganon's momentum in the air helps Ganon. Although good players shouldn't be getting hit, just being able to stop Ganon's momentum with knockback below you limits what the opponent can do.

This is just a few examples of why Wizard Foot may be better in many scenarios. I can actually go on about particular match-ups, and more examples.

 

[Thinkaman]

In the air: Provides a safezone below, this coupled with the massive killing power it has benefits Ganon greatly. If you had WDK in this position (in the air), you would simply have the option to retreat behind the opponent - and that can get predictable. Your opponent may be able to bait that out, and knows that he can play under you more often.

Momentum stoppage: The existence of the stoppage of Ganon's momentum in the air helps Ganon. Although good players shouldn't be getting hit, just being able to stop Ganon's momentum with knockback below you limits what the opponent can do.

I agree absolutely on the value of this, but I haven't really found many situations where WF would hit and WDK wouldn't, with appropriate aerial control. WF is of course stronger, which is the main trade-off of WDK.

Meanwhile, there is a modest aerial zone where WDK can hit but WF can't. (Natural due to the geometry involved--a diagonal stripe can intercept any part of a circle, oval, or rectangle from more starting points.) This means that the opponent's options are limited in more situations. (At the cost of doing less damage.)

This is all compounded by WDK's superior recovery utility--it is less likely for Ganon to end up in some unfavorable positions. (This applies more to off-stage horizontal threat, but it does affect many cases where Ganon is stuck above someone too.)

On the ground during early percentages: Coupled with flame choke, can limit the what your opponent can do. Your can't simply stand in shield or roll away unpunished. WDK is less effective in this situation because, not only can it get you punished during early percentages, but it can only really punish rolls if they are at a particular distance, while Wizard Foot can punish rolls near normal flame choke distance (much closer to Ganon).

I have not found that WDK missed anyone but the very shortest characters at Flame Choke range.

It can't hit people standing up out of Flame Choke, but then again neither can WF.

I'm not sure what you mean about getting punished at early percents; I've never found WDK to be unsafe on-hit.

On the ground: Can get you some very good follow up with cancels, or with the jump you get off air. WDK can get cancelled as well, but requires precise position, the two directions of the stages every time. Wizard Foot can hit, and still get a cancel - which is the bulk of Ganon's combo game.

Now this is the part that really confused me.

I always considered the second biggest advantage of WSK (after beating grounded linear projectiles) was easier edge-cancels.

WF slows down when it hits a target, including shield. This means that WF edge-cancels at two different distances based on whether or not it hits an opponent. Against multiple possible targets, it gets even messier.

WDK, meanwhile, edge-cancels at consistent, fixed distance. I can do it at the same part of the stage with the full confidence that I get a cancel every time--hit or no hit.

And naturally, it combos just like standard WF cancels on hit. It combos a tad better, at slightly higher %s; a silver lining for doing less damage and knockback.

I agree that if WDK couldn't edge cancel, it would lose a lot of value relative to WF. But I've always found it to cancel way better; it did take a little time to get used to the slightly different spacing.

This is just a few examples of why Wizard Foot may be better in many scenarios. I can actually go on about particular match-ups, and more examples.

Sure, this is a good conversation.

To summarize, I see the relative pros of WDK as:

• Hops over grounded linear projectiles.
• Cancels at a consistent distance, independent of targets hit.
• Major recovery aid, particularly when sent high off-stage.
• Hits opponents close to Ganon out of SHs.
• Wider aerial threat zone.
• Slightly longer range.
• Aerial sweetspot cannot be tech'd on-stage, and kills sooner. (118% vs. 136%; training mode default position Mario.)

Relative disadvantages:

• Kills later on everything else. (181% vs 148% on ground sweetspot, 176% vs. 99% on aerial sourspot; training mode default position Mario.)
• Does less damage. (9/7% vs. 12/10% on ground, 11/9% vs. 15/14% in air, 6% vs. 8% on landing.)
• Does not hit short characters (or certain ducking ones) standing close to Ganondorf.
• Aerial sweetspot cannot spike off-stage.

While I do miss having aerial sourspot as a potent kill move, I think the first 3 listed pros of WDK are enough to easily outweigh this in every matchup.

I'm interested to hear what matchups you see as the vertical KO power having more value. I still loyally have a copy of every custom set with WF instead of WDK, and would be happy to have a reason to use them.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Regular Wizard's Foot I believe I would primarily use against Little Mac, because Little Mac generally changes the point of the game. Superior recovery is not nearly as important against him due to his limited edgeguard options, while the extra power for KOing him or getting him offstage in contrast is clearly a big deal.

 

[Thinkaman]

Regular Wizard's Foot I believe I would primarily use against Little Mac, because Little Mac generally changes the point of the game. Superior recovery is not nearly as important against him due to his limited edgeguard options, while the extra power for KOing him or getting him offstage in contrast is clearly a big deal.

I can possibly buy this. I might give up better cancels for more damage and kill power in this matchup. I agree on the recovery aspect. What's Mac gonna do, punish Ganon for recovering low???

 

[Xinc]

In particular, I find that WDK isn't as effective in punishing Wizard's foot tech punishes. The lack of kill power also bugs me, but the safety it grants and the position you're in after a ledge cancelled Kick can lead to something chaotic for your opponent. Both have their uses, and whether or not you should use it depends on the matchup.

Speaking of customs, I still haven't unlocked Gerudo Dragon. *miffed*

 

[Davregis]

Uh, how is the Greninja matchup going to be approached? I've played rounds against people who simply walled me out by varying charged and uncharged Shurikens -- I couldn't get in for the several matches we played, and didn't have the option of waiting, as he had a life lead. Water Shurikens stop Ganondorf completely, what are the strats?

 

[Xinc]

Wizkick cancels out the shuriken, I think. Jump over uncharged, or shield and advance. Ganon's move clash with shuriken.

 

[adom4]

Any tips against ZSS?
It feels really hard to punish her down-B & paralyzer.

 

[Z1GMA]

It feels really hard to punish her down-B

Are we talking about her step or her kick here? Both?

The step is easily countered with a retreating aerial. Namely Fair.
The kick can be punished on block or if you Spotdodge.

 

[Xinc]

Unfortunately got bopped in a pretty few good matches in this guy's Greninja. I feel my Ganon's defensive skills are extremely predictable and obvious. So I'm going to work on my defensive game. How would you recommend I do so?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Unfortunately got bopped in a pretty few good matches in this guy's Greninja. I feel my Ganon's defensive skills are extremely predictable and obvious. So I'm going to work on my defensive game. How would you recommend I do so?

In my honest opinion, I believe that it's less about you, but more about your opponent. The real question is, what can you do that will help you figure out your opponent?

You want to get your opponent into a rhythm that you can play around, try your best to hold your ground for long enough until you catch them with their pants down.

I know this isn't very specific, but watching this match from Gungnir really gave me that impression, that especially when playing against someone like Greninja whose offensive options require noticeably different responses to counter, you have to find the mental fortitude within yourself to get in their head, and then proceed to violently take it apart.

The times Gungnir whiffs pokes in that match are not pointless. They cover specific options and encourage his opponent to play a specific way, helping to reduce a small amount of the guessing he needs to do to play his opponent.

 

[Xinc]

In my honest opinion, I believe that it's less about you, but more about your opponent. The real question is, what can you do that will help you figure out your opponent?

You want to get your opponent into a rhythm that you can play around, try your best to hold your ground for long enough until you catch them with their pants down.

I know this isn't very specific, but watching this match from Gungnir really gave me that impression, that especially when playing against someone like Greninja whose offensive options require noticeably different responses to counter, you have to find the mental fortitude within yourself to get in their head, and then proceed to violently take it apart.

The times Gungnir whiffs pokes in that match are not pointless. They cover specific options and encourage his opponent to play a specific way, helping to reduce a small amount of the guessing he needs to do to play his opponent.

Thanks for the wonderful advice. It was very invaluable. I also have an issue with my recovery. I understand double jump from ledge, roll, ledge attack, ledge drop fair/up air and ledge jump choke are viable, but I somehow manage to get all my options covered by the guy who's too far for me to attempt a up air.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Don't forget that ledge stand -> shield is much safer in this game because you won't get pushed of the ledge by shieldstun anymore. That alone helps characters like Ganondorf and Bowser very significantly on the ledge.

 

[Xinc]

Don't forget that ledge stand -> shield is much safer in this game because you won't get pushed of the ledge by shieldstun anymore. That alone helps characters like Ganondorf and Bowser very significantly on the ledge.

Alright, thank you. That definitely adds a new life saving event for my Ganon.

I found the guy's name. It's Ksaii.

 

[Poxnixles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=noAQvTdONC8#t=29s

Do think this may mean something for Ganoncide when the patch/Wii U hit?

 

[Xinc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=noAQvTdONC8#t=29s

Do think this may mean something for Ganoncide when the patch/Wii U hit?

Hopefully not. Don't you dare jinx it. We need this buff. I mean, For Glory wise.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@ Thinkaman Before I go on, remember, you're talking with someone who knows Ganondorf better than probably anyone else in the game right now.

I agree absolutely on the value of this, but I haven't really found many situations where WF would hit and WDK wouldn't, with appropriate aerial control. WF is of course stronger, which is the main trade-off of WDK.

I didn't say that WF should hit to be better in this position. You misread what I stated here. Here's what I said:

The existence of the stoppage of Ganon's momentum in the air helps Ganon. Although good players shouldn't be getting hit, just being able to stop Ganon's momentum with knockback below you limits what the opponent can do.

Meanwhile, there is a modest aerial zone where WDK can hit but WF can't. (Natural due to the geometry involved--a diagonal stripe can intercept any part of a circle, oval, or rectangle from more starting points.) This means that the opponent's options are limited in more situations. (At the cost of doing less damage.)

This is all compounded by WDK's superior recovery utility--it is less likely for Ganon to end up in some unfavorable positions. (This applies more to off-stage horizontal threat, but it does affect many cases where Ganon is stuck above someone too.)

This is not true. A good player will understand the trajectory and hitbox of an aerial WDK. He/She will be under Ganon and if his/her character is fast enough, will chase Ganon if Ganon decides to use WDK. The opponent should never be that far away from Ganon to begin with to get hit by WDK, unless the character the opponent's using likes to play at a distance. WDK will generally be used to recover better, or retreat away, but often leaving Ganon vunlerable.

I have not found that WDK missed anyone but the very shortest characters at Flame Choke range.

If the character is just idle then it shouldn't, but we're not talking about missing characters here. I stated that rolls & spotdodges are punishable at flame choke distance as compared to WDK, where either Ganon or the character has to be a flame choke plus another half flame choke distance away.

I'm not sure what you mean about getting punished at early percents; I've never found WDK to be unsafe on-hit.

Earlier on the match (0-25ish%) and especially against heavier characters & quick punishers, Ganon needs a good 'scare' option. Wizard Foot does just that because of it's decent speed, straight hitbox, capability to punish rolls and spotdodges, and being safe on hit. WDK is not safe on hit during very early percentages, giving the opponent to work infront of Ganon much more efficiently. To know what I mean here, you actually have to be playing Ganon at a very high level.

Now this is the part that really confused me. I always considered the second biggest advantage of WSK (after beating grounded linear projectiles) was easier edge-cancels.

WF slows down when it hits a target, including shield. This means that WF edge-cancels at two different distances based on whether or not it hits an opponent. Against multiple possible targets, it gets even messier.

WDK, meanwhile, edge-cancels at consistent, fixed distance. I can do it at the same part of the stage with the full confidence that I get a cancel every time--hit or no hit.

And naturally, it combos just like standard WF cancels on hit. It combos a tad better, at slightly higher %s; a silver lining for doing less damage and knockback.

I agree that if WDK couldn't edge cancel, it would lose a lot of value relative to WF. But I've always found it to cancel way better; it did take a little time to get used to the slightly different spacing.

Yes, if by easier edge cancels you mean that the move itself is faster and you can get to edge quickly, then of course! But that's not what I stated. WDK does get you to places quicker, but to actually make use of edge cancels efficiently, the move itself much have sufficient knockback power for a follow up. When hit by the normal wizard foot from many different corners of the stage, it has a good knockback and much more follow up potential, and along with that it's much easier and reliable to get the cancel upon hit to make a follow up. Whereas WDK only has enough knockback for a nair or uair upon hit, and is much less reliable in general. Remember, it's not just that 'it could cancel too, it is better'. There's much more to it.

Sure, this is a good conversation.

To summarize, I see the relative pros of WDK and relative disadvantages as..

While I do miss having aerial sourspot as a potent kill move, I think the first 3 listed pros of WDK are enough to easily outweigh this in every matchup.

I'm interested to hear what matchups you see as the vertical KO power having more value. I still loyally have a copy of every custom set with WF instead of WDK, and would be happy to have a reason to use them.

Yeah, it is good to get this out there now than having this brought up later.

Those three listed pros you've mentioned:

[*]Hops over grounded linear projectiles.
[*]Cancels at a consistent distance, independent of targets hit.
[*]Major recovery aid, particularly when sent high off-stage.

I've answered above (or I should say stated my opinion) on why this doesn't really mean that WDK is automatically better.

I'm interested to hear what matchups you see as the vertical KO power having more value. I still loyally have a copy of every custom set with WF instead of WDK, and would be happy to have a reason to use them.

Don't get me wrong. WDK is indeed a move that I, too, will use. Switching between it and WF. WA is probably not just the least usable down special for Ganon, but the least usable move overall in Ganon's customs. WDK will be better against certain characters who are using certain customs, and WF will be better against certain characters who are using certain customs. The heavy power of WF in the air isn't the only positive factor that makes it more usable than WDK, it's just a part of it.