Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[jahkzheng]

On flat ground it seems.
However, there's a chance we'll be able to thunderstorm on stages with slight slopes.

That's too bad to hear, but I guess Ganon's got a lot more options this time around already. I will miss that though.

So I take it that this means the landing lag on a single hop dair can't be cancelled by anything? Just wondering since it seemed like cancelling landing lag after an aerial was a thing that was going well for a lot of characters in this game. Can Ganon just not jump high enough to cancel his landing lag or is it that you just can't cancel the landing with a jump and instead it must be a ground move like I've seen other characters do?

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

Didn't it already have a name?

The Thunderstomp.

I like Curb Stomp better, Ganon Rollins ftw!

 

[Biinii]

@ jahkzheng short hopping dair has landing lag, which cannot be cancelled. You can only fullhop dair and land with no lag. Ganon has two shorthopped autocancel moves in bair and uair. Also the only way to prevent fair from having landing lag is fullhopping and attacking as soon as you double jump, any second after double jumping and the move won't finish in time.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ jahkzheng short hopping dair has landing lag, which cannot be cancelled. You can only fullhop dair and land with no lag. Ganon has two shorthopped autocancel moves in bair and uair. Also the only way to prevent fair from having landing lag is fullhopping and attacking as soon as you double jump, any second after double jumping and the move won't finish in time.

They really seriously didn't fix the F-air glitch. F-air was supposed to autocancel during fullhop...like in Melee.

**** man, that's just annoying. Right when I was about to trust the balance from Namco/Nintendo, looks like they were lazy and rushed it.

I'll just cry in a corner until I hear word that this game legitimately will get balance patches.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah, I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed in that. Most of all for the DAir. Not because I worry about how good he'll be, but... DAir was just REALLY fun.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

I thought the move was fine I Brawl.

In fact I don't think there was anything wrong with it, he just lands faster because of his weight, remember he was made heavier than he used to be in Melee, there is nothing wrong with the move, I think if you'd get a good sense of how fast Ganon will land when performing the move, you can time it right, but otherwise I think you guys are just botching the move altogether.

 

[Vermanubis]

Not sure I'm following you.

 

[Z1GMA]

@ jahkzheng You can only fullhop dair and land with no lag.

Can a fullhop Dair hit tall characters like Bowser?

 

[Vermanubis]

Hey, guys, write down all your questions so I can know what to test for specifically this weekend.

 

[A2ZOMG]

*Flame Choke followups on techrolls (especially techroll away). Also confirm that you can tilt people on neutral tech.
*Are you able to not grab the edge by holding down while you Up-B to it? So you can potentially punish those who stay too long.
*Whatever frame data estimates you can figure out for changed moves.
*Grab range estimates, especially compared to other characters
*Wizkick anti-projectile properties?
*When do moves feel like they can KO in general?

Can't think of anything else. Ganon at any rate is mostly the same character as before.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

Does Ganondorf still have his left/right Air attack, or as I call it The Superman Punch?

 

[Biinii]

@ Z1GMA I've tested on the taller ones and it only hits Ganondorf and Rosalina, and it is a very specific spot right in the middle of the character.

Edit: Disregard this, it happens only if you buffer your DAir to come out in the first frame possible. There is a window in which you can DAir, hit most characters and land without lag.

@ A2ZOMG Wizkick clanks with projectiles(most of them at least, can't think of a counterexample right now).
For an idea of killing power, sweetspot BAir kills Mario at the edge of FD by around 80%. You can get earlier kills with out of stage BAirs for example. DAir on grounded opponents won't kill until 120% on most cases, Bowser for example dies at around 140%. A surprisingly strong kill move is custom UpB 2(Thunder God Fist is a rough translation), which can be used OOS and kills super early, like before 100% on most characters.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

^ Wizkick given priority is a BIG thing. In Brawl it was probably one of the moves with the worst priority. I've noticed that FTilt clanks with a lot of attacks now because of it's faster speed (as you can see in the Marth game of the latest video).

Good to see that many of Ganon moves were given more priority.

 

[jahkzheng]

@ jahkzheng short hopping dair has landing lag, which cannot be cancelled. You can only fullhop dair and land with no lag. Ganon has two shorthopped autocancel moves in bair and uair. Also the only way to prevent fair from having landing lag is fullhopping and attacking as soon as you double jump, any second after double jumping and the move won't finish in time.

Okay, so is the animation of dair too slow to input immediately after a full hop input and hit something shorter, or does inputting a dair right after inputting a hop shorten the hop? Regardless of an answer, even if full hop dair on all characters could be connected, it would be followed by a full hop. Wouldn't have the beautiful and simple rhythm of thunderstorming, but it would be better than nothing.

Also, I'm curious if leaping from a hanging position on the edge of a stage into dair can be cancelled upon landing on the stage. Doesn't seem like the best option really if someone's camped at the edge of the stage, but I'm more just curious if the extra air time you get from leaping from a hanging position allows for an autocancel.

 

[Biinii]

Okay, so I did some more investigative testing and here's it.
If you buffer your DAir to come out as soon as you can after fullhopping, you'll only hit Ganon and Rosalina, standing and on a particular spot in the middle. There is a tight window after you jump in which you can DAir, hit most characters and land without lag. I'll upload a video later showing this in detail.

Bottom line is, buffering it(the easy way) won't hit most characters, so you have to get the timing right.

 

[Kamiko]

Hey, guys, write down all your questions so I can know what to test for specifically this weekend.

Armor. I want to know what other moves have it, if any. And thanks in advance for doing all this.

By the way, I'm suspecting that the power of the opponent's move may determine whether or not the armor takes effect. Just something to think about when testing.

 

[Biinii]

http://youtu.be/m9CAYRrM8Tc
Here is an unedited example.

Edit: Fixed.

 

[Riskman]

http://youtu.be/m9CAYRrM8Tc
Here is an unedited example.

Video is in Private mode, can't watch it.

 

[jahkzheng]

http://youtu.be/m9CAYRrM8Tc
Here is an unedited example.

Edit: Fixed.

Thanks for the research. So I guess buffering a dair out of a full hop makes the dair come out too high for most characters, but if you time the dair input just right you'll hit lower characters and land lagless. Wait a fraction of a second too long though and you get a laggy landing.

Nothing but the correct timing can cancel that landing animation? I noticed you jabbed a couple times after you landed lagless. I guess you can't do that immediately if you landed with lag, huh.

Would be awesome if we discovered a trick to make lagless dairs viable as a "ground" game. Thunderstorming is no longer a thing, but even some "thunderstorming light" AT would be fun, heh. I'm really anxious to see if there's any trick at all that could come close in this game.

I heard that dair may be his only aerial that can't be canceled after the short hop. Is that true? Can even fair be short hop cancelled? Doesn't seem likely. I think I'm just getting confused because it's just their land lag animation that's shorter in this game and no cancel is actually happening. Either way, it would be fun to see what moves can be cancelled that way. I'd think a few of them could be used in a full hop and double jumped out of. I can just imagine a full hop uair at low damage comboing into a fair or dair if you double jumped to follow up before landing.

 

[Biinii]

@ jahkzheng
Short hop cancelled:
*BAir
*UAir

Full hop cancelled
*NAir
*DAir

Full hop + Double Jump cancelled
*FAir

 

[jahkzheng]

With that in mind, I look forward to trying different combinations of those aerials out. See if any of them can follow up into each other or something.

Would be awesome if you discovered something cool just fooling around with these moves.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Hey, guys, write down all your questions so I can know what to test for specifically this weekend.

If you do sideB to send yourself off the stage, will Ganondorf snap to the ledge, or just plummet and SD?

 

[Oort]

How's the sourspot on Bair? Can it still be followed up?

 

[Sykkamorre]

@ jahkzheng
Short hop cancelled:
*BAir
*UAir

Full hop cancelled
*NAir
*DAir

Full hop + Double Jump cancelled
*FAir

We can actually land fair lagless? Well damn!
Woohoo!

 

[Z1GMA]

Hey, guys, write down all your questions so I can know what to test for specifically this weekend.

Combos at low%. Maybe Usmash/Dtilt as the starter.
Maybe Usmash > fullhop reversed sourspot Bair > Uair

Efficiency of RAWP when recovering.

 

[ecaflip]

Has anyone found use for ganon's nair as a pressure tool?
From what I've been playing it can cause the opponent to roll to avoid and allow me to get back on stage after a recovery, but smarter players just dash shield and grab me out of it.
Has anyone had luck with ledge dropped aerials? Has anyone been able to chase off stage and still have enough time to recover? Will ganon ever get the triforce?

 

[Z1GMA]

@ Biinii , can you test if SH Dair autocancels when performed down a slight slope?

Has anyone been able to chase off stage and still have enough time to recover?

Like, with what? Walk off aerials? Plunging aerials? Wizkicking off stage?
In Brawl, he had no problems at all recovering after stuff like that - I find it hard to believe he would now.

 

[jahkzheng]

We can actually land fair lagless? Well damn!
Woohoo!

I'd have taken "landing lag" on fair if they added a hitbox upon landing and punching the ground. A move with potentially two hitboxes if you were close enough to the ground. Would make it much less punishable and scary. But alas, they didn't do this. Fun to imagine though.

Combos at low%. Maybe Usmash/Dtilt as the starter.
Maybe Usmash > fullhop reversed sourspot Bair > Uair

Efficiency of RAWP when recovering.

I'd like to know if Choke into dtilt is still a thing on some characters. I heard choke is techable now or something... or maybe it was. I can't remember the specifics. Only that choke to dtilt was a thing a few characters I think in Brawl, but not all for some reason. Just curious if it's still at all a thing.

You're talking reminded me of this because I remember usually getting a good "pseudo-combo" out of choke > dtilt > uair. At least most people and computers I played didn't escape unless I screwed it up, but I never tested how true it was. Been too long since I've played Brawl, heh.

 

[Z1GMA]

@ Vermanubis , also, Try to figure out Ganon's weight.
I almost forgot that.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@ Vermanubis , also, Try to figure out Ganon's weight.
I almost forgot that.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

I heard that Ganondorf's unlock criteria is complete Classic Mode as Link or play 80 matches, is this true?

If so, then I'd like to make him my first unlock by going straight to Classic Mode and beating it with Link.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

I heard that Ganondorf's unlock criteria is complete Classic Mode as Link or play 80 matches, is this true?

I believe it is, yes. Although I think I remember someone saying they unlocked him by clearing Classic with Zelda, so it might just be that any Legend of Zelda character works.

 

[Morbi]

I heard that Ganondorf's unlock criteria is complete Classic Mode as Link or play 80 matches, is this true?

If so, then I'd like to make him my first unlock by going straight to Classic Mode and beating it with Link.

Indeed. I was checking the unlock requirements, and apparently it is not known whether or not Link is the only way to unlock Ganondorf. Some other characters require a difficulty of 7.0 or higher, so perhaps that is the safe method to get Ganondorf first; however, the 80 matches portion is certainly true.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

Indeed. I was checking the unlock requirements, and apparently it is not known whether or not Link is the only way to unlock Ganondorf. Some other characters require a difficulty of 7.0 or higher, so perhaps that is the safe method to get Ganondorf first; however, the 80 matches portion is certainly true.

It seems that Jigglypuff, Bowser Jr and Game and Watch are the characters that require some sort of bs difficulty to unlock, according to what I'm seeing, it just says beat Classic Mode as Link, nothing more, so I'm going to make this as easy as possible because I want Ganondorf first, not stupid Falco, I hate birds.

Btw I'm going to use Fierce Deity Link to unlock Ganondorf!

 

[SLEEPING MAN]

Can someone give me some advice on fighting Little Mac? It seems he's just too fast for Ganondorf.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Can someone give me some advice on fighting Little Mac? It seems he's just too fast for Ganondorf.

Simply relax and bait him. Not even kidding.

 

[D-idara]

Indeed. I was checking the unlock requirements, and apparently it is not known whether or not Link is the only way to unlock Ganondorf. Some other characters require a difficulty of 7.0 or higher, so perhaps that is the safe method to get Ganondorf first; however, the 80 matches portion is certainly true.

From personal experience, Toon Link also unlocks Ganondorf.

 

[Shogger]

Can someone give me some advice on fighting Little Mac? It seems he's just too fast for Ganondorf.

Shield grabs are quite useful on Little Mac since players like to throw out his dash attack a lot. If you stand near the edge and throw him off the stage with a shieldgrab, it's over for him since his recovery is garbage. Ganon's offstage is pretty deadly.

 

[Kamiko]

For those still wondering, you do NOT need intensity 7 to unlock Ganondorf. I don't know how low you can go, but I'm certain 6 is enough.

EDIT: Didn't notice there was a thread for this. Whoops.

 

[rahsosprout]

Should I be angling ganon's f-smash? I just realized it can be angled up or down. It looks like they kind of affect trajectory but I'm not sure.

Edit: Not sure if this is common knowledge, but it doesn't matter the initial input, only which direction control stick is facing when you release so you can start with upwards tilted and charge to release as downward tilted. Windup animation looks the same.