Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[Z1GMA]

I keep losing to ZSS's. Is her Dthrow -> Uair -> Uair -> up B guaranteed on us? It kills at like 60% and it's absolutely ****ing obnoxious. All she has to do is shoot an uncharged paralyzer at us and she can either grab us for shielding it, grab us for rolling after shielding it, grab us for spot dodging, or watch us jump and combo us with Uair into Up B anyways.

And her down B is ridiculous too; it's invincible, it spikes, it ground pounds, it's safe on Ganon's shield, and it's a kill move. We can't juggle her because instead of landing, she can instantly, invincibly hop 30 feet across the stage where we can't reach her landing.

Anyone have advice for dealing with these two horrible game design decisions?

I feel you, DLA. She can kill us earlier than we can kill her, and it's ridiculous.
Have a friend help you practice DI'ing her up+b. It's possible to SDI behind her during the multi-hits of her up+b, but it's pretty hard. And even if you do SDI behind her and avoid the strong hit, it's pretty hard to punish her afterwards.

As for her down+b, well it's just bull**** and should be nerfed hard.

 

[the king of murder]

I keep losing to ZSS's. Is her Dthrow -> Uair -> Uair -> up B guaranteed on us? It kills at like 60% and it's absolutely ****ing obnoxious. All she has to do is shoot an uncharged paralyzer at us and she can either grab us for shielding it, grab us for rolling after shielding it, grab us for spot dodging, or watch us jump and combo us with Uair into Up B anyways.

And her down B is ridiculous too; it's invincible, it spikes, it ground pounds, it's safe on Ganon's shield, and it's a kill move. We can't juggle her because instead of landing, she can instantly, invincibly hop 30 feet across the stage where we can't reach her landing.

Anyone have advice for dealing with these two horrible game design decisions?

ZSS is a secondary to my mains Ike, Robin and Ganon and I have studied her quite a lot so I think I can help.

Firstly her Uair->Uair->Up B works until certain percent. Usually they work till the 70-80s(for Ganon), past that you should be able to get out with AD(be careful good ZSS can bait the AD). Try to DI away from her as far as possible if she Dthrows you as she can just straight up Up-b you otherwise.

Her paralyzer is actually quite laggy. Once you are in mid range, para becomes pretty unsafe. If you powershield it, you can murder her with DA. If you normal shield it, you can anticipate the grab and either spot dodge or do an inward roll and punish hard. Remember, her grab is a commitment because of it's unforgivable end lag. It's possible that she may mix it up with DA.

Alternatively, you can approach by jumping over her paralyzer and FF Nair her or do some empty hops.

Her Down-B is only invincible during like the first 1/3 jump. The 2/3 of the jump(at almost around the apex of the jump) can be challenged. I have always managed to beat her Up-B with Ikes Fair and Bair. I think Ganon has almost the same reach with his Fair, so if you feel ballsy you can try to catch her with your well timed aerials that isn't Dair.

Of course you can just Airdodge into her Down-B and she is forced to Flipkick(ground pound) into you with you being unharmed and ZSS is helpless afterwards until she touches the ground. Her hard hitting kick should be more punishable on shield btw.

Honestly, ZSS who spam paras, down-b out of everything and go aggressively for grabs are really bad ZSS in my opinion and quite easy to deal with once you get the hang of it. All it takes is practice. Don't get frustrated . Once you are out of her desired percentage she has quite a lot of trouble killing. She has Up-B OoS, FSmash and Bair plus medicore edgeguarding but everything requires commitment or baiting.

In my opinion, well spaced Dtilts + FF Nairs are our bread and butter here. Try to move around a lot.

Also yeah, Z1g already told you you can DI out of her Up-b though it's really hard for someone as big as Ganon.

 

[DLA]

Both of your posts are very helpful, thank you.

 

[adom4]

Both of your posts are very helpful, thank you.

Also in your second match against Day you had a great opportunity to Ganoncide him but you steered toward the stage, in smash 4 you can control Ganondorf's movement in air chokes & he always dies second when Ganonciding

 

[DLA]

Oh really? That explains a lot LOL. I thought I had that Ganoncide.

 

[Z1GMA]

It's possible to steer the Ganoncide in Brawl as well, but nowhere near as much as in smash 4.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon is one of the better characters at challenging ZSS DownB directly with his huge Nair and Uair. It is always vulnerable before the hitbox.

As king of murder said, her death combo only works at a certain range, and DIing to get behind her often can save you.

At the end of the day ZSS is just another Captain Falcon. She has a great combo game, mobility, and close range, but once you learn her tricks, she can be picked apart and Ganon can actually kill her pretty easily once he catches on. I believe competitively she is one of Ganon's better top tier matchups because we actually have relatively safe juggles on her and rarely will die offstage vs her.

 

[redcometchar]

Here is a question.
What in ganon's name is the deal with the evo custom sets for ganon. They are actually trash.
Why is warlock punch 2 even a consideration. Its actually useless. Dark vault 1 isnt on a single set.
I sware.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Here is a question.
What in ganon's name is the deal with the evo custom sets for ganon. They are actually trash.
Why is warlock punch 2 even a consideration. Its actually useless. Dark vault 1 isnt on a single set.
I sware.

Warlock Blade actually can sometimes hit people by virtue of being faster than Warlock Punch, still having the armor frames, and having gigantic range. It also threatens shields. Either way all the Neutral B customs are pretty bad for the most part.

Dark Vault is reeeealy bad when you realize two things. It actually makes your horizontal recovery worse (which limits some of your edgeguard options, in fact), and also is extremely easy to simply hit Ganon out of.

 

[redcometchar]

Warlock Blade actually can sometimes hit people by virtue of being faster than Warlock Punch, still having the armor frames, and having gigantic range. It also threatens shields. Either way all the Neutral B customs are pretty bad for the most part.

Dark Vault is reeeealy bad when you realize two things. It actually makes your horizontal recovery worse (which limits some of your edgeguard options, in fact), and also is extremely easy to simply hit Ganon out of.

I was referring to the fast warlock punch, I thought it was 2.
And Dark Vault dosent go as far as the double grab hitbox one?

 

[Blobface]

Are you referring to Dark Dive? Dark Dive is the default, Dark Fists is the one that doesn't grab, and Dark Vault is the one with two grabs. Dark Fists is almost strictly the better option except maybe against a Little Mac with Guard Breaker. In that case you may use Dark Dive to get through his super armor. Dark Fists is a pseudo-CQC option on a character with none.

As far as I know, every Ganon custom is on the EVO sets except Wizard's Assault (lol)

Warlock Punch and Warlock Blade would honestly be a lot more useful if they didn't have such bad endlag. This is why U-tilt is actually practical in this game*, it has such low endlag that there's no way to punish it if it actually goes off. WP and WB have such horrendous end lag that all you need to do to beat them is get out if the way and punish once it's safe to go in. Though I suppose that's for FFA's.

We really need to have Ganon FFA's sometime...

*though there's almost always better options, hence why it doesn't see much use at high level play. Has anyone been able to use it on Shulks or Meta Knights?

 

[jmanup85]

Someone brought this up so I'll ask it here. Does dark fists go higher than dark dive by a big margin or even at all? @ Blobface

 

[Blobface]

Someone brought this up so I'll ask it here. Does dark fists go higher than dark dive by a big margin or even at all? @ Blobface

It has the same vertical distance as Dark Dive. It goes a little further horizontally due to the 1-2 extra frames added into the animation, but that's it.

 

[redcometchar]

Are you referring to Dark Dive? Dark Dive is the default, Dark Fists is the one that doesn't grab, and Dark Vault is the one with two grabs. Dark Fists is almost strictly the better option except maybe against a Little Mac with Guard Breaker. In that case you may use Dark Dive to get through his super armor. Dark Fists is a pseudo-CQC option on a character with none.

As far as I know, every Ganon custom is on the EVO sets except Wizard's Assault (lol)

oops yes I was whining about why the default isnt in a set.
I am also aware of the utility of dark fists, but i miss the grab hitbox in some situations.

2121, 2122, 2321, 2322, 2132, 2332, 2222, 3122, 3121, 3112

The normal warlock punch is not present, nor is wizards assault (agree lol). I do now see the original up b is present but i still think we should re evaluate these sets.

 

[mgleed]

I've got a friend I play with regularly who plays quite well with Link. I'm trying play more aggressive off stage, but I struggle against him when he's recovering from below because his up-B has a lot of priority and weird hitboxes throughout the move. Does anyone have any good tips for gimping his up-B recovery as Ganon?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've got a friend I play with regularly who plays quite well with Link. I'm trying play more aggressive off stage, but I struggle against him when he's recovering from below because his up-B has a lot of priority and weird hitboxes throughout the move. Does anyone have any good tips for gimping his up-B recovery as Ganon?

N-air usually beats/trades even if he recovers low. Spaced correctly you can also beat his Up-B with F-air. Try to chase him aggressively before he Up-Bs too.

 

[Blobface]

what about D-air?

 

[A2ZOMG]

what about D-air?

Really position dependent. Or dependent on tricking him into not Up-Bing at all. Link's Up-B is one I'd recommend against challenging with D-air specifically.

 

[mgleed]

N-air usually beats/trades even if he recovers low. Spaced correctly you can also beat his Up-B with F-air. Try to chase him aggressively before he Up-Bs too.

Thanks Blobface and A2ZOMG. I've tried to punish with D-air, but more often than not I end up getting hit. I find the most luck if I can get him before he uses up-B, as you suggested. Nair sounds promising, I need to use that more in my off-stage game anyway.

 

[jmanup85]

does anyone know where I can find the data to compare hitstun values between melee, brawl and sm4sh?

 

[A2ZOMG]

does anyone know where I can find the data to compare hitstun values between melee, brawl and sm4sh?

No easy answer to that exists.

Smash 4 hit stun however from what I heard is basically a combination of the other two. Hit stun scales linearly with knockback, to a certain point and then at high values you can interrupt it at a static point with airdodge(like frame 40ish compared to frame 13 from Brawl) @Trifroze

 

[Blobface]

No easy answer to that exists.

Smash 4 hit stun however from what I heard is basically a combination of the other two. Hit stun scales linearly with knockback, to a certain point and then at high values you can interrupt it at a static point with airdodge(like frame 40ish compared to frame 13 from Brawl) @Trifroze

Supposedly, that point varies from attack to attack, generally getting higher as an attack does more damage. This stuff is a bit unconfirmed though.

 

[Zodiacx10]

i was able to deal 36% to Mario with ganon's upsmash..but in training mode i can only get it to do 29 when fully charged

i know i had a bit of rage but...i did 36% and killed him super early
does ganon's upsmash have stronger hitbox at the tip of ganon's boot or something?

 

[adom4]

i was able to deal 36% to Mario with ganon's upsmash..but in training mode i can only get it to do 29 when fully charged

i know i had a bit of rage but...i did 36% and killed him super early
does ganon's upsmash have stronger hitbox at the tip of ganon's boot or something?

Yes, it's stronger on the tip of the foot.

 

[Zodiacx10]

Yes, it's stronger on the tip of the foot.

so i was testing it out in training mode and i can kill mario at 37% by hitting him with a fully charged upsmash with the tip of ganon's boot...but that only does 33%...do how did i do 36% in the video?

 

[Blobface]

so i was testing it out in training mode and i can kill mario at 37% by hitting him with a fully charged upsmash with the tip of ganon's boot...but that only does 33%...do how did i do 36% in the video?

Fresh moves bonus + decimal shenanigans, most likely. A fresh, fully charged Ganon U-smash does 35% with some additional decimal left over.

Also, it seems that a fully charged U-smash still has a decimal without fresh moves. 33 * 1.05 = 34.65, so it must be slightly higher.

 

[Zodiacx10]

Fresh moves bonus + decimal shenanigans, most likely. A fresh, fully charged Ganon U-smash does 35% with some additional decimal left over.

Also, it seems that a fully charged U-smash still has a decimal without fresh moves. 33 * 1.05 = 34.65, so it must be slightly higher.

Oh alright that makes sense. Thank you!

 

[TheMiSP]

Minor questions, but I guess I might as well ask here.

Man I'm digging Ganon, relieves my depression of G&W's lack of kill power

In a situation where your spike is pretty much guaranteed (like you read an air dodge), would you go for the dair or top it off with an extreme down b (default) meteor? This is against a player equal or less than your skill, so you're not too desperate. How about in any situation?

Is short hop aerial down b meteor attempt good to try when opponents are about to grab ledges from the side? Ex. Cap Falcon side b. Keep in mind that I position it where I still land on the stage if I do miss. Or, is there anything better I can do?

 

[Blobface]

Minor questions, but I guess I might as well ask here.

Man I'm digging Ganon, relieves my depression of G&W's lack of kill power

In a situation where your spike is pretty much guaranteed (like you read an air dodge), would you go for the dair or top it off with an extreme down b (default) meteor? This is against a player equal or less than your skill, so you're not too desperate. How about in any situation?

Is short hop aerial down b meteor attempt good to try when opponents are about to grab ledges from the side? Ex. Cap Falcon side b. Keep in mind that I position it where I still land on the stage if I do miss. Or, is there anything better I can do?

From a purely practical standpoint, Wizard's foot's spike has higher base knockback (50) than Dair (20 but more damage), so if you happen to get someone offstage at below 10% (somehow) go for it.

But generally, you only want to use Wizkick as a spike if you feel like styling on your opponent. There will almost never be a situation where someone can survive a Dair.

Also, Ganon indeed can shove his boot through the stage with Wizkick without going offstage, though it doesn't hit far enough to hit the 1 frame of ledge vulnerability. If they don't have ledge invincibility, they can be hit by it during their ledge hang.

 

[The Gallows]

I've got a friend I play with regularly who plays quite well with Link. I'm trying play more aggressive off stage, but I struggle against him when he's recovering from below because his up-B has a lot of priority and weird hitboxes throughout the move. Does anyone have any good tips for gimping his up-B recovery as Ganon?

Sour spot up air boys. I understand what you mean by the hitbox but it is generally pretty easy to hit him out of it with more practice and timing.

 

[Godman]

So I have been told to actually use Usmash... As of currently I probably use Dsmash more than Usmash (so basically never since I know how bad Dsmash is) yet everyone seems enamored with the move. Sure it seems to attack kind of fast but it still doesn't seem safe on shield, it seems highly punishable still and it looks to have abysmal horizontal range... The only use I can think of is maybe when someone is above you on a platform...

So why exactly is everyone convinced this is ganondorf's best smash move?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So I have been told to actually use Usmash... As of currently I probably use Dsmash more than Usmash (so basically never since I know how bad Dsmash is) yet everyone seems enamored with the move. Sure it seems to attack kind of fast but it still doesn't seem safe on shield, it seems highly punishable still and it looks to have abysmal horizontal range... The only use I can think of is maybe when someone is above you on a platform...

So why exactly is everyone convinced this is ganondorf's best smash move?

Ganon's U-smash is extremely safe on shield, actually. Pushes back really far, I forget if it's only like -9 on block on something. It's really really safe on block.

Ganon's best Smash is F-smash actually due to its range, leanback, and power. However U-smash is good when you need to pressure shield/spotdodge, to preemtively anti-air (people CANNOT disrespect the hitbox when approaching you from the air). When you play Ganondorf, often your goal is to condition someone into a rhythm that you can catch onto. If your opponent starts playing really defensively because they're afraid of your other moves, throwing out a U-smash either as they roll inward or shield or dodge is safe and can really punish them hard for getting predictable, especially since at low percents Ganondorf can combo into aerials after U-smash (making it technically his best punish on shield break at 0%).

 

[Naroghin]

Usmash has "Interruptible As Soon As" frames as well, so when it's employed without immediately following up with something else, your opponent can see the ending frames and assume it's rather punishable, further conditioning this. If I can, I try not to go directly into other moves when I first use Usmash, sometimes allowing a raw bait-and-bash later on.

 

[adom4]

Any tips for the Ike matchup?
It feels hard getting in sometimes because of his range & eruption is an easy edgeguard.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I never seem to get caught with eruption when I hug the stage and sweet spot the ledge, but maybe I'm just lucky. Conversely, we have volcano kick if they try any up-B through the stage nonsense and you're uneasy about going deep. Their recovery is a lot harder to mess around with if they are using customs. The diagonal aether is a real equalizer.

All the sword characters got a lot harder to deal with in the last patch, man. Ganondorf really needs that little bit more love.

 

[jmanup85]

Against Ike you're mostly gonna have to be careful of the reduced landing lag on his aerials now, you can still punish but you need to be just a bit faster in your reactions. If they are coming in high usually they go for the side b recovery so you can try to airdodge into it and make them go into free fall. Conversey you can uair him or nair him. Eruption shouldn't be too much of an issue if you recover low but watch out for fair

 

[Naroghin]

Also, in some cases you may need to look out for counter. If you're getting too many striking followups/strings your opponent might try to break them with a counter, which can be your demise if you're at a medium-high percent. I'll usually reward one or two counters, then feint a followup to bait the counter and punish with an Fsmash. Since SH Uair is a common followup I'll usually do an empty jump out of DA or Dthrow to bait the counter. If they don't counter, I lose an Uair and reset; if they do counter, I get a free charged smash (depending on spacing and timing and such).

 

[Eonn]

How do I play the neutral in general,and against ranged characters like Link ? What can I do OoS against characters that are too low to hit with nair? Are there any guaranteed grab follow ups at low percentages?

 

[Blobface]

How do I play the neutral in general,and against ranged characters like Link ? What can I do OoS against characters that are too low to hit with nair? Are there any guaranteed grab follow ups at low percentages?

Ganondorf's best tools in neutral are U-smash, D-tilt, Dash Attack, and N-air, along with Flame Choke and Wizkick for punishes and shield reads. Ganondorf's primary goal in neutral is to get an idea of how his opponent will react to things so he can "guarantee" for a commitment like Dash Attack or Flame Choke to pay off. If you'd like to watch someone else for reference, there are plenty of videos of Vermanubis and Ray_Kalm online.

Ganondorf's main grab followups at low percentages: D-throw --> Dash Attack, D-Throw --> U-air, D-throw --> F-air (DI in only!). Your main grab followups will be Dash Attack and U-air though, since both are easy to hit and put the opponent in a bad position afterward.

Ganondorf unfortunately has very bad OoS options. Grab is generally the best one if they mis-space, but other than that, you're pretty much limited to Jab and Wizkick. Sometimes you're best off just picking another defensive option and waiting for a mistake.

 

[Blobface]

Pardon the double post.

What situations would you use Wizkick over Dash Attack? It seems to me to only be useful punishing rolls/spotdodges.