Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[A2ZOMG]

Pardon the double post.

What situations would you use Wizkick over Dash Attack? It seems to me to only be useful punishing rolls/spotdodges.

Wizkick is a slightly better anti-air, gives more stage control than DA both in area controlled and pushing people offstage which at moderate high percents is preferable, has ledge cancel shenanigans, and also goes over certain low hitboxes. Then there's obviously the Gungnir combo offstage, Wizkick into F-air.

It actually has quite a few practical situations to be used over DA.

 

[Naroghin]

Also can punish certain arching projectiles if your timing is good and their ending lag is bad.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Are Ganon's grab and wizkick nerfed from brawl? Wizkick seems to travel significantly slower than in brawl, and his grab feels much faster in that game as well.

Also, have the changes to Ganon's fall speed make autocanceling his aerials more difficult?

 

[Naroghin]

I can't answer about the grab or wizkick speed, but I do know wizkick still cancels at the ledge but can no longer be used for "Flight of Ganon." I am uncertain about the actual frame data/difference, and I would worry more about how that data stacks up against the rest of the Sm4sh cast, rather than how it differs from Brawl.

For aerials: I do think there is a much smaller window to autocancel Uair and Bair (Nair only autocancels on full hop and fair can only buffer into a special after a full hop rising fair, iirc). Also, short hop Dair no longer autocancels, so you either have to full hop Dair, or DJ from somewhere just below a ledge/platform and DI back on to autocancel with the same range as a short hop Dair, but it's much more situational and should only be used for certain punishes, which you still will probably have to read.

And all of this is not considering the possibilities of frame canceling certain moves. Only Dair and Nair have any use with this (as far as I know) and only Nair can be performed in a semi-reliable way using full hop>air dodge and fast-falling the Nair once it can come out.

Just offering my humble knowledge on the subject; anyone please feel free to correct me on any details above.

 

[Z1GMA]

Are Ganon's grab and wizkick nerfed from brawl? Wizkick seems to travel significantly slower than in brawl, and his grab feels much faster in that game as well.

Also, have the changes to Ganon's fall speed make autocanceling his aerials more difficult?

Wizkick is much better in this game. It's a bit faster, but most of all, it has a much better hitbox(es) now.

 

[Blobface]

Ok, I just want to make sure, but it seems it's impossible to tech Ganon's D-air on the ground. I tested it myself and it seems to be true, but I really want to make sure this isn't a false alarm. Can someone else test if Ganon's D-air is untechable on the ground?

 

[krazyzyko]

Is it possible to tech chase with flame choke every option on reaction?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ok, I just want to make sure, but it seems it's impossible to tech Ganon's D-air on the ground. I tested it myself and it seems to be true, but I really want to make sure this isn't a false alarm. Can someone else test if Ganon's D-air is untechable on the ground?

I'm guessing there's something funny about Ganon's D-air having the electric element which causes his D-air to be untechable on the ground. That's about the only explanation I have.

Is it possible to tech chase with flame choke every option on reaction?

Very character dependent and obviously you would have to be really good at recognizing animations. Some characters notably have really long techrolls that you have to predict and effectively buffer Flame Choke ahead of time in order to properly techchase them.

This isn't to say that you can't adjust your techchasing dynamically on reaction efficiently. For instance, you have more than enough time to react to a tech in place with a grab safely. Walking away slowly lets you cover neutral and inward getups reactively if you know what you're doing. Generally speaking you have to commit completely differently to cover rolling away.

 

[mgleed]

Question about Dair. I've found I've had mixed success following up a footstool, missed tech, etc. when attempting to Dair an opponent laying on the ground. Is it character dependent, whether or not Ganondorf has a guaranteed Dair, or am I just timing/placing it wrong?

 

[Blobface]

Question about Dair. I've found I've had mixed success following up a footstool, missed tech, etc. when attempting to Dair an opponent laying on the ground. Is it character dependent, whether or not Ganondorf has a guaranteed Dair, or am I just timing/placing it wrong?

It sounds like you're referring to D-airing someone that's missed a tech. Try to fast fall the D-air a bit so the hitbox extends all the way to the ground.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So this is a thing that happened.

Since I'm dumb and trying to comprehend this myself, can someone explain to me what happened here with the Up air?

 

[GerudoKong]

I need matchup advice. Whenever I play against Shulk, Marth, or Lucina, I have a really hard time dealing with the Fair. I can't find any good options to deal with it-the Fair is much faster and outspaces most of Ganon's attacks. I get hit out of sideB and downB if I try using those. They tend to just spam that move and there is little I can do to approach or punish.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I need matchup advice. Whenever I play against Shulk, Marth, or Lucina, I have a really hard time dealing with the Fair. I can't find any good options to deal with it-the Fair is much faster and outspaces most of Ganon's attacks. I get hit out of sideB and downB if I try using those. They tend to just spam that move and there is little I can do to approach or punish.

Mostly shield works best. Run/walk up into shield can screw with their spaacing and you can punish their endlag. Wizkick can sometimes also break through when timed properly, which is to say either right as they SH or right after they Fair if they just spam it. If they're more patient this isn't as good. Really shield should work most of the time against the swords.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I need matchup advice. Whenever I play against Shulk, Marth, or Lucina, I have a really hard time dealing with the Fair. I can't find any good options to deal with it-the Fair is much faster and outspaces most of Ganon's attacks. I get hit out of sideB and downB if I try using those. They tend to just spam that move and there is little I can do to approach or punish.

It's good to learn to space N-airs against them, which are pretty fast, and have really good range.

 

[krazyzyko]

Can someone please toss me some good ganon mains I can look up?

 

[Blobface]

Can someone please toss me some good ganon mains I can look up?

Ray_Kalm, Vermanubis, and Gungnir, are definitely the 3 best Ganon's right now. Verm has his own youtube channel and Kalm has appeared at a lot of tournaments, but I'm not sure where you'd find footage of Gungnir.

 

[adom4]

Question to all of you guys, what do you use for your control scheme?
Do you use tilt stick or smash stick?
I've been using smash stick since release but i've been thinking of switching to tilt stick because of repeated misinputs & i would like to hear what do you prefer.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd prefer Smash Stick due to years of experience since Melee, but I have to concede that tilt stick is superior. Tilt stick is important for ledgehop aerials, buffered fastfall aerials, turnaround tilts, yeah.

Plus the A+B Smash input more or less can replace the C-stick in 85% of situations once you get used to it.

 

[Blobface]

Question to all of you guys, what do you use for your control scheme?
Do you use tilt stick or smash stick?
I've been using smash stick since release but i've been thinking of switching to tilt stick because of repeated misinputs & i would like to hear what do you prefer.

...

...

I use a Wiimote and Nunchuk with up on the D-pad set to Up-Smash for quick U-airs.

I'm Pro like that.

 

[Direspect only!]

So I've been swallowed by Kirby and then footstooled while trying to not die..... also I got the off stage wall of pain from jiggly with no hope of return, what do you do against mid air combos seeing as ganon has no fast aerials yo combat say jiggly or mario? Also how does ganon over come these gimps^^^^?

 

[Blobface]

So I've been swallowed by Kirby and then footstooled while trying to not die..... also I got the off stage wall of pain from jiggly with no hope of return, what do you do against mid air combos seeing as ganon has no fast aerials yo combat say jiggly or mario? Also how does ganon over come these gimps^^^^?

Against most of those things your best option is to just airdodge and try to get to a better position. If they try to go on for too long you can sneak in a N-air or U-air, but airdodge is your fastest option.

Ganon's best way to deal with gimping is to always save his double jump. You should never buffer a jump when you're launched offstage since not only will it take your double jump but due to it actually increasing your launch speed the extra height is pointless.

As long as Ganon has his DJ, you can DJ airdodge through most gimp attempts.

 

[Gearitz]

I want to learn Ganon any tips and tricks would be greatly appreciate it. Secondly since I believe very few characters in smash 4 are tournament viable at higher levels while being a solo main who do you all suggest I use?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I don't think anyone but Sheik is a 100% safe solo main in Smash 4.

You may as well also rip your soul out and throw it in the garbage, since it seems you won't be needing it anymore.

 

[Gearitz]

I don't think anyone but Sheik is a 100% safe solo main in Smash 4.

You may as well also rip your soul out and throw it in the garbage, since it seems you won't be needing it anymore.

I think rosa and ZSS could be solo mains

 

[Vermanubis]

I think rosa and ZSS could be solo mains

One thing that'll set a person up for failure nine times outta ten is going for top tiers as an auto-win option. 99% of people I've known who've just switched to a top tier because they were sick of losing discovered that their character wasn't their problem, rather, they themselves were. They did slightly better, but as Scarlet Jile said, in exchange for their dignity, they moved up to top 8 instead of top 10. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but integrity's worth a bit more than a slight upgrade in tournament performance, especially if it's still not making money.

As for Ganon tips, use lots of aerial movement. The single most common part of any Ganon's game which suffers as far as I'm concerned is their air game. They'll throw out loads of smashes and stay mostly groundly, only going into the air once a blatant opportunity presents itself. In upper levels of play, Ganon needs a lot of empty movement (short hops, weaving in and out of opponent's range, etc.) and lots of patience, usually in the form of learning people's movement patterns and pushing them into bad situations with your own movement/big hitboxes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Against most of those things your best option is to just airdodge and try to get to a better position. If they try to go on for too long you can sneak in a N-air or U-air, but airdodge is your fastest option.

Ganon's best way to deal with gimping is to always save his double jump. You should never buffer a jump when you're launched offstage since not only will it take your double jump but due to it actually increasing your launch speed the extra height is pointless.

As long as Ganon has his DJ, you can DJ airdodge through most gimp attempts.

buffering your double jump out of knockback is actually important to survive certain would-be KOs, but yeah. As a rule of thumb saving your double jump is top priority.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I think rosa and ZSS could be solo mains

Rosa is supposedly hard-countered by metaknight. ZSS is just a good character that's not as good as Sheik.

 

[Gearitz]

How important is reading for a Ganon main?

 

[_Magus_]

How important is reading for a Ganon main?

Reading is essentially everything. The way you play Ganon, summed up in one sentence, is this: Read where your opponent will be, and put an insanely strong hitbox there.

 

[Shmeckie]

Also, it's important to learn the ins and outs of every other character, their movesets in particular. You need to know which moves to block, or which to interrupt with an attack of your own.

 

[Yoshister]

I recently picked up Ganon because I have a ton of fun playing as him. Also, is down special a safe way of approaching your opponent on-stage?

 

[jmanup85]

I recently picked up Ganon because I have a ton of fun playing as him. Also, is down special a safe way of approaching your opponent on-stage?

The short answer to your question is no. The long answer is nooooooooooooooooo. Down special and all it's customs are not safe ways to approach.

 

[Blobface]

What Jman said, but I'd also like to add that Down-B is mainly used as an anti-air, a roll punisher, and a spotdodge punisher.

 

[Direspect only!]

I use down b as a spike. It's a lot more flexible hitbox wise due to its extended active frames. It's also a great mix up for dair. Once you teach them being below you is a no no, you can start using uair.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Can Ganon land on the stage after dropping off the ledge and doing a rising up Air? I've seen several videos in brawl where he could do this.
Example of what I'm taking about:
https://youtu.be/KZavr0fC-co?t=15

 

[_Magus_]

Can Ganon land on the stage after dropping off the ledge and doing a rising up Air? I've seen several videos in brawl where he could do this.
Example of what I'm taking about:
https://youtu.be/KZavr0fC-co?t=15

I've seen it done before in this game, but the input windows are really strict.

 

[krazyzyko]

Does special fall give ganon more aerial mobility?

 

[Showyoucan]

I was wondering what is the best stage selection for Ganon. I would like to use The Big House 5 stages since it was the most recent big tourney that happened.
Starter

• Battlefield/Miiverse *
• Dream Land 64
• Final Destination
• Smashville
• Town & City

Counterpick

• Castle Siege
• Delfino Plaza
• Duck Hunt
• Halberd
• Lylat Cruise

IMO so far:
1. Battlefield: Platforms to avoid camping and start shield pressure
2. Smashville: Very small stage, so getting close to your opponent is much easier than other stages
3. Dreamland: Like Battlefield, going against camping foes will be easier but Ganon doesn't benefit killing on the top ceiling. Ganon has 3 moves that kill on top; Up-Smash, Down tilt and D-Air (on grounded opponents or they bounce on stage when getting hit in the air)

These 3 are what I'm familiar with.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Does salmon smashing our fsmash still give us extra range?

 

[Showyoucan]

I seem to struggle a lot from Greninja's neutral B. When should I do when I see it charged? Do I block it, get away from it, or jump away from it?