Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[adom4]

Hey, I can't land f tilt on anyone after a side b when they don't tech. It seems rather simple, but I can't hit it. Is there a secret I'm missing?

Different characters have different follow ups, check the guide thread for the follow up chart.

 

[UzakiuzuG]

It works for some characters others it doesn't.

 

[Direspect only!]

I can't do it on anyone. That's my problem

 

[Blobface]

I can't do it on anyone. That's my problem

Are you immediately buffering it? If it comes out even a few frames late it'll whiff on anyone.

 

[Direspect only!]

No. I was doing it on reaction. Thanks, and happy holidays.

 

[Cahalan]

What's the most preferred set of specials when taking in to account customs? I'm aiming to eventually establish a list for the "best" set of specials per character in the default roster as DLC characters have no alternate specials to choose from.

Right now the set of 2212 seems a good fit for me, but I want to hear from other Ganondorf mains as well.

 

[adom4]

What's the most preferred set of specials when taking in to account customs? I'm aiming to eventually establish a list for the "best" set of specials per character in the default roster as DLC characters have no alternate specials to choose from.

Right now the set of 2212 seems a good fit for me, but I want to hear from other Ganondorf mains as well.

either regular punch or warlock blade for Neutral B (they both kinda suck anyway).
regular choke for side B.
Dark fists for up-B.
and either default wizkick or wizard dropkick depending on the match up.

 

[Makzutheamazing]

I applied to a little tourney on a forum and I heard my challenger plays Little Mac and Ryu. Any tips against these dudes?

 

[Vermanubis]

I applied to a little tourney on a forum and I heard my challenger plays Little Mac and Ryu. Any tips against these dudes?

Be careful of what you try to punish against Mac. He has a lot of IASA frames (interruptible before the animation ends), like FSmash, which he usually follows up with an FTilt if he whiffs or hits shield. Be patient, and don't do really commital moves like FSmash or FAir unless you're positive it'll hit.

Against Ryu, just don't fall for falling focus attacks. Ryus love to cover their lands with focus attacks, so watch out for that. If only we had a choke follow-up against Ryu, he'd be much more disinclined to land with focus attack.

 

[Blobface]

I applied to a little tourney on a forum and I heard my challenger plays Little Mac and Ryu. Any tips against these dudes?

• Against Mac, try not to use U-smash and F-smash too much to directly attack him (U-smash can be used for baits). Using these really risks eating a nasty 30%+ counter. They're not useless, but use them carefully. D-smash doesn't risk that much against a counter since the first hit is pretty weak, so that can be really helpful.
• Abuse your range on D-tilt and the like as much as possible, make it hard for him to get in.
• Flame Choke also trashes Mac hard. D-tilt is guaranteed and both his getup and tech rolls are godawful.
• Most importantly though, Mac should die at least 50% of the time he's offstage. The only real viable option he has recovering against Ganon is to hope he gets a counter, anything else is pretty easy to edgeguard.

• Ryu is much harder. Above all else you need to play very carefully. Ryu will totally wreck you if he gets a good hit, so you need to play as safe as possible.
• Hadouken really isn't a good projectile. It's there, but don't base our play around it. Try to make him approach you.
• Really try to focus on safe moves like B-air, U-smash, D-tilt, etc.
• His recovery is pretty hard to edgeguard. Just remember that N-air can beat Focus Attack and Tipman is your friend. Be ready to tech stage spikes.

Hope this helps. Good Luck!

 

[adom4]

Against Ryu it's hard but it'd kinda doable.
In this MU you need to imagine you're Dhalsim and poke like mad with everything you got, NEVER get too close to him, focus at maintaining your space with D-tilt, Nair & most of our long ranged moves.
Also one thing Ryus like to do is to tech in place after a choke & then use TRSK, F-tilt out of a choke is a good option at kill % after a choke since it always comes before TRSK.

 

[Z1GMA]

I applied to a little tourney on a forum and I heard my challenger plays Little Mac and Ryu. Any tips against these dudes?

When you Flame Choke Mac, he gets to choose if he wants to be hit by your Dtilt, or Fsmash.
Dtilt covers all options and techs except when he techs towards/through you - when he does, a buffered Fsmash is garantueed.

The 2'nd hit of Mac's Ftils wiffs a lot Vs Ganon when spaced in a certain way. You can easily Ftilt/Dtilt him when this happens.

If you get stuck in his jabs, you can DI up and away and buffer an Uair in his face sometimes.

In close range, SH Dair OoS beats pretty much all of Mac's attacks, except Utilt (I don't Think you should worry about his Usmash here).
A great Low/Mid Crush in this MU.

 

[Blobface]

Vermanubis , You've mentioned before how you tend to separate players into certain archetypes to get a feel of their habits faster. If possible, could you describe the kinds of archetypes you use?

 

[adom4]

Any tips vs ZSS?
I feel like it's the only top tier MU i don't know how to fight.

 

[Vermanubis]

Vermanubis , You've mentioned before how you tend to separate players into certain archetypes to get a feel of their habits faster. If possible, could you describe the kinds of archetypes you use?

Sure thing.

In essence, I try to break down a given player into a list of fundamental tendencies; universal aspects of any given person's playstyle. Things like:

-How they react after doing a punishable move/cooldown habits -- some people throw out attacks (usually characters with good jabs like Ike) and some spotdodge/roll
-Ledge options
-Landing habits -- try to attack, jump away, reset to the ledge, etc.
-Reaction to being launched -- airdodge, attacks, etc.
-Recovery habits
-Approach habits -- do they wait for you to make the first move (cough Captain Falcon), do they go in hard?
-Set-ups -- just knowing common follow-ups, like Lucario's FH FAir > wavebounce aura

Broader generalizations can be made, too, like those who are generally aggressive, passive and so forth, but I've gotten the most mileage and felt my understanding of any given player most complete out of the list up above.

When you play without being able to explicitly recognize these unique facets of a player, you're basically playing on the fly, which is asking for inconsistency. I've mentioned before that some people excel versus some kinds of players and suffer versus others. That's 'cause you develop an intuition for certain behaviors, and others, when you haven't really studied them, confuse you when you come up against them and that manifests in the form of not catching onto things in time. I dunno how many of you guys are computer fans, but like RAM versus static memory, if you play too intuitively without understanding these patterns, that's like RAM, and you're collecting information in a small storage space, so when new information comes and changes occur, adaptation is slow, since you're constantly in a state of rotating that limited supply of dynamic memory.

On the other hand, however, if you've seen those patterns before and can recognize them as they happen (someone always going to the ledge after being launched, rolling backwards after whiff), you need only recognize that it's happening, instead of having to both recognize it and simultaneously formulate a counter-strategy among the boatload of other avenues of information you have to process in the match. I've gotten into the habit of asking myself during each match, like a checklist: "what's ___ doing in ____ situation?" and 99% of the time they align with the things I mentioned before, and I can adapt quickly.

 

[Direspect only!]

That's really smart, and that really aligns with how I play ganon as well, although, as you said I only take it to the lowest level of what kind of player are they, and how is the MU supposed to be played. By doing that you can limit at least 2 options. But by the way you do it, it sounds like you almost always have an idea of what they are going to do. I'll start looking more in depth, not just MU wise.

 

[mgleed]

Could someone explain what the weird ledge tech is performed by P1 at 1:08?

 

[Xinc]

Could someone explain what the weird ledge tech is performed by P1 at 1:08?

I'm not sure, but it could be either a buffered jump get up up air, fast fall back down.

Not gonna double post, but lately I don't know if this has happened to anyone, but when I go on Anther's and I play Ganon for too long (I'm running a solo Ganon for the season), I get a real big headache afterwards. Has this happened to you guys before? Advice?

 

[Darkshadovv]

How is this possible? The ledge grab miss is probably due to ledge mechanic changes, but didn't Flame Choke had weak set knockback that couldn't send so far down?

 

[verbatim]

I'm tempted to say that he was holding down so he didn't' grab the ledge, but I've done this to Luigi before as well, maybe it's something weird w/ his traction?

 

[Theosmeo]

So landing a Dair on someone at 0-10% while they're on the ground is unsafe on hit, it puts them in a strange stun animation for while though, which always confused me. With Dairs range buff though I've been using it more in neutral, and I found that landing the 0% Dair while the opponent is in the air puts them in the weird standing stun animation while lowering them to the ground. They don't land on their back though, unlike most hitstun. This means it's untechable, and it forces them at a mostly straight down trajectory. I've found that if someone's going for and aerial against you they won't expect you to jump. If you predict a full hop aerial approach with an attack with low range you can double jump Dair > fastfall Bair OR (this one's a mixup) fastfall Nair 1(while behind them) > Gerudo/pivot grab/SH Bair

It's pretty situational, but good for Peach, Falco, and I've even found Villager can succumb to this(if they don't see it coming)

 

[Opana]

Can I make a topic about Aerudo->dsmash? I got a complete list for who it works on if they roll away, and I plan to make one for get ups and inward rolls we can turnaround dsmash too.

Aerudo->Dsmash

Outward Rolls:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Bowser Jr
Donkey Kong
Mr. Game and Watch
Robin
Duck Hunt
Kirby
Falco
Charizard(Can't roll through you, can hit with nearly anything.)
Greninja
ROB
Villager
Olimar
Dr. Mario
Mega Man
Sonic
Ryu

May need help with inward rolls though

 

[PEACE7]

Mewtwo vs Ganon what's that MU like? Who wins it? Pros and Cons?

 

[adom4]

Mewtwo vs Ganon what's that MU like? Who wins it? Pros and Cons?

It's even imo, i'd explain in detail but i'm on mobile right now.

 

[PEACE7]

It's even imo, i'd explain in detail but i'm on mobile right now.

Alright dude whenever you get a chance i would love to hear the input! I can also see it as even tho

 

[Koskinator]

I have a very serious inquiry for Vermanubis

When will you become a man
And procure a Wii U?









Like a man....

 

[Theosmeo]

Does anyone know the landing lag of dark dive?

 

[Vermanubis]

Mewtwo vs Ganon what's that MU like? Who wins it? Pros and Cons?

I wanna hear adom4 's input, too, but I think it's slightly in Mewtwo's favor. Not terribly, but Mewtwo can outspace us really easily and it's tough to land solid hits. Plus, the fact that he can kill us really easily off of grabs is cause to be nervous.

Also, Peace, my boy.

I have a very serious inquiry for Vermanubis

When will you become a man
And procure a Wii U?









Like a man....

Ahhh, Kosk asking the <tough> questions. Playing hardball with old Verm. Soon as one of two (maybe both) things happens: my money stops flying out the window or I make more. I'm damn good at managing money, but life always finds cute ways to surprise me with expenses.

I'm just so used to emergencies that I like to never spend more than half of what I have to my name in one go if I can help it.

 

[djk7877]

Do you know if it is possible to counter the cyclone spike of Luigi with Ganondorf ?

 

[Theosmeo]

Do you know if it is possible to counter the cyclone spike of Luigi with Ganondorf ?

You'tr talking about the Dair right? a well timed Uair should beat it

 

[djk7877]

No, his down B

 

[jmanup85]

You can tech the Cyclone stage spike

 

[Direspect only!]

Cloud vs. Ganon? I played a good cloud last night for a couple hours, and didn't realize how good clouds nair was. I got gimp combo'd by it like 6 times. Also I see the MU as 5.5 ganons favor. They both hit equally hard. But ganons strength invalidates a majority of clouds keep out game.

 

[adom4]

Cloud vs. Ganon? I played a good cloud last night for a couple hours, and didn't realize how good clouds nair was. I got gimp combo'd by it like 6 times. Also I see the MU as 5.5 ganons favor. They both hit equally hard. But ganons strength invalidates a majority of clouds keep out game.

There is absolutely no way we beat cloud, not even 50/50.

 

[PEACE7]

I wanna hear adom4 's input, too, but I think it's slightly in Mewtwo's favor. Not terribly, but Mewtwo can outspace us really easily and it's tough to land solid hits. Plus, the fact that he can kill us really easily off of grabs is cause to be nervous.

Also, Peace, my boy.



Ahhh, Kosk asking the <tough> questions. Playing hardball with old Verm. Soon as one of two (maybe both) things happens: my money stops flying out the window or I make more. I'm damn good at managing money, but life always finds cute ways to surprise me with expenses.

I'm just so used to emergencies that I like to never spend more than half of what I have to my name in one go if I can help it.

Hey what's up bro! Hope everything is well man we miss you here! And as for the mu as far as my experience on the mu is concerned the only time where i feel Mewtwo truly is beating Ganon is offstage since ganon is so limited out there. Onstage Mewtwo can struggle if the spacing is not on point, Mewtwo been the second lightest character in the roster is huge since ganon hits so hard so a couple of good reads and M2 is on his way to using up his next stock if any. Ganons sideB techchase is beautiful against him as well specially if the opponent is not teching them not to mention the shieldbreaks can be super real. Now if the M2 makes good use of his tilts and SB to space ganon out the MU becomes a lot easier. Mewtwo beats him in the air and can juggle pretty decently, on the ground it can go either way they both have great tools against each other and offstage i feel like M2 has the upper hand as well but as I said before M2 is super light whereas Ganon isn't, the M2 has to work a bit harder to rack up that damage as well and get a good read to finish the stock up but its the same for both characters i guess. It feels sort of like Marth vs D3 back in the brawl days where it can be even based on the players knowledge and playstyle but overall i believe the MU to be even or slightly in Mewtwos favor. Can go either way.

 

[Z1GMA]

Mewtwo vs Ganon what's that MU like? Who wins it? Pros and Cons?

I say it's even or slightly in Ganon's favour.

 

[Koskinator]

I wanna hear adom4 's input, too, but I think it's slightly in Mewtwo's favor. Not terribly, but Mewtwo can outspace us really easily and it's tough to land solid hits. Plus, the fact that he can kill us really easily off of grabs is cause to be nervous.

Also, Peace, my boy.



Ahhh, Kosk asking the <tough> questions. Playing hardball with old Verm. Soon as one of two (maybe both) things happens: my money stops flying out the window or I make more. I'm damn good at managing money, but life always finds cute ways to surprise me with expenses.

I'm just so used to emergencies that I like to never spend more than half of what I have to my name in one go if I can help it.

This is such an unsatisfying answer lol. Get a damn wii u so i can slap you around in dittos

 

[djk7877]

You can tech the Cyclone stage spike

Thanks for answering jmanup85
However, I do not know how I can tech in this case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etrNmdGGTmU

 

[Theosmeo]

Yeah, he's hell. He can force you to approach by charging limit, then spam you out with his sword beams. Once he's got limit he can just run at you and SH Nair all day. The key to beating him is shields, because after 35% or so his throw combos stop working on us. But be careful, because limit Cross slash is really good at poking AND breaking shields, limit cloud is also quite fast.

 

[jmanup85]

Thanks for answering jmanup85
However, I do not know how I can tech in this case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etrNmdGGTmU

In the case of that video you cannot tech any of it.