Q&A Ganon's Cauldron of Questions (Ganon Q/A Thread)

[djk7877]

In the case of that video you cannot tech any of it.

Okay

 

[LifeMushroom]

How do you cancel Ganon's aerials lag or something? I've heard of it but never done it.

Also, is that DACUS still possible and how do I do it? It looks sick.

 

[Direspect only!]

Bair and up air can be short hop canceled. Fair can be autocanceled into a side b move through really strict timing. I think dair can be auto canceled at a very very specific height

 

[LifeMushroom]

Is it me or is Ganon's D-Smash kinda weird now? The hits don't really connect for me.

 

[Theosmeo]

If they're real close(bodies inside each other close) the Dsmash will launch them forward. Otherwise it should connect perfectly.

 

[Direspect only!]

I've actually found it to be more comsistent

 

[LifeMushroom]

I've seen if the opponent is too far, it launches them a tiny bit forward, making you vulnerable.

 

[Theosmeo]

Really, I use Dsmash at its longest range to punish sometimes and it always works, one time I was at like 215% and all the rage made it launch too far behind me but it should be perfect.

The angles it launches people are: 160/140/154/50 and the only one that would launch anyone the wrong way would be 50, which is only active on the closest part of the hitbox. It's not a normal multihit that can be escaped(Samus Usmash, ROB Dsmash, DHD literally everything) so it can't be SDIed out of, it's just one hit with set KB into the other hit.

 

[Koskinator]

Thats not true, if you di down you can tech the first hit of dsmash. Hard to do and you'd need super good reaction time to do it successfully. Ive only done it maybe twice, its pretty situational

 

[Theosmeo]

Thats not true, if you di down you can tech the first hit of dsmash. Hard to do and you'd need super good reaction time to do it successfully. Ive only done it maybe twice, its pretty situational

Really? That's interesting, I'll have to keep that in mind.

 

[twistacles]

Hey everyone!

Been lurking for a while, absorbing all your knowledge. Figured I'd dip my feet into the discussion!

What are the best stages for Ganondorf, after Battlefield/Dreamland/Lylat? I find Town and City isn't too bad, but everything else feels awful.

For context, I have a group of friends that runs regular smash nights, and we have a pretty liberal stage list.

Starter: DL,FD,BF,T&C,Smashville
Counter:Delfino,Halberd,Lylat,Castle Siege,Umbra,Duck Hunt (2 bans)

What should be my ban strategy? The ness matchup is pretty rough when he can bring me to either Castle Siege/Halberd/Final Destination depending on which I don't ban

 

[LifeMushroom]

How do I space d-air better? I always get the Flame Chokes but I fail at stomping them from the ground. Any tips?

 

[Astrofallz]

Hey everyone!

Been lurking for a while, absorbing all your knowledge. Figured I'd dip my feet into the discussion!

What are the best stages for Ganondorf, after Battlefield/Dreamland/Lylat? I find Town and City isn't too bad, but everything else feels awful.

For context, I have a group of friends that runs regular smash nights, and we have a pretty liberal stage list.

Starter: DL,FD,BF,T&C,Smashville
Counter:Delfino,Halberd,Lylat,Castle Siege,Umbra,Duck Hunt (2 bans)

What should be my ban strategy? The ness matchup is pretty rough when he can bring me to either Castle Siege/Halberd/Final Destination depending on which I don't ban

It really depends on what you're okay with. If you don't want to deal with jank stages then ban Castle and Halberd. If that doesn't matter to you then you have a decision to make. I personally do not like going to FD as Ganon because it forces my approach to be very honest and straightforward. I also have nowhere to retreat to either which I need since I like to play a somewhat offensive Ganon. Against a character with a projectile I don't want to be put in that situation so FD and DH would get an immediate ban for me. If you are the defensive type you might not see this as much if a problem. Hopefully this helps.

 

[Astrofallz]

How do I space d-air better? I always get the Flame Chokes but I fail at stomping them from the ground. Any tips?

Do you mean d-air follow-up on the missed tech or in general?

 

[free33]

Hey guys, is ledge canceled WIzkick to flame choke a true combo at some percents or can it be di'd out of? Looking to implement it as a kill confirm, as I'm already using the ledge cancel itself

 

[LifeMushroom]

Do you mean d-air follow-up on the missed tech or in general?

Missed tech

 

[Twoyears]

How do you guys use the new jab now? I keep forgetting the move exists and I feel like I should use it more.

 

[Theosmeo]

How do you guys use the new jab now? I keep forgetting the move exists and I feel like I should use it more.

Spam that **** like no tomorrow. Good at defense if you don´t need to approach.

 

[free33]

In footsies, i like to throw it out once or twice, then surprise them as they close space with the longer range of dtilt. it's a good mindgame.

 

[THE 6r]

How do you guys use the new jab now? I keep forgetting the move exists and I feel like I should use it more.

I throw it in as a somewhat quick interupt to kind of stop what the opponent is doing and either retreat to a safer spot or follow up with dash attack to maybe get a combo.

 

[Litany]

How safe is 1.1.5 Ganondorf's jab on shield? I know that the electricity effect adds a little extra shieldstun, and I haven't been punished for using it on shield yet, although that doesn't necessarily guarantee that it's safe.

 

[Theosmeo]

Space it right and I think you're good, don't be too close though.

 

[LifeMushroom]

Hey I'm having some trouble with the Ganon vs. Ness matchup. I don't really know how to dodge his PK Fire. Even if I shield, it leads to a grab for him and decent damage

 

[Litany]

Hey I'm having some trouble with the Ganon vs. Ness matchup. I don't really know how to dodge his PK Fire. Even if I shield, it leads to a grab for him and decent damage

For the Ness match-up, I recommend staying grounded in neutral. Ness has poor approach options from the ground, and his disjoints on his aerials make it difficult to challenge. In terms of PK Fire, you can use Wizard's Foot to go right over it (I believe). Crossover Dash Attack is also very useful, as Ness has a hard time punishing it out-of-shield. Ness has a pretty easily edge-guarded recovery, but always be ready to tech if you miss.

 

[adom4]

Hey I'm having some trouble with the Ganon vs. Ness matchup. I don't really know how to dodge his PK Fire. Even if I shield, it leads to a grab for him and decent damage

PK fire is pretty slow & wizkick can go right over it.
In general you want to abuse your superior range, focus a lot on neutral and pokes and i know it's super obvious BUT RESPECT HIS GRAB HARD.
When trying to juggle Ness be careful of over commiting since his U-air is stupid.
Offstage he's vulnerable but you still have to be super careful because of PKT2, that **** hurts like a ************.
If you're good at teching you can get hit by it on purpose to shorten it & then tech the stage spike.
Oh, and offstage he will harass you with PK thunder a lot and tbh that's one of the hardest things about this MU, but you can try to cancel it with Nair or Uair, you need good positioning for that but it can help a ton.

 

[TM 023]

Hey! Do we have some kind of combo guide for Wizard's Foot Ledge Cancel? If not, maybe I'll make it. I was at the lab trying and discovering new things.

 

[Litany]

Hey! Do we have some kind of combo guide for Wizard's Foot Ledge Cancel? If not, maybe I'll make it. I was at the lab trying and discovering new things.

Not yet, at least as far as I know. You could make it if you wanted.

 

[free33]

Hey I'm having some trouble with the Ganon vs. Ness matchup. I don't really know how to dodge his PK Fire. Even if I shield, it leads to a grab for him and decent damage

aight my sparring partner mains ness so here's what i got. 1. wizard's foot completely goes over pk fire (the bolt not the flame it it is already going.) 2. we destroy him offstage. just run off falling fair, nair or dair. 3. watch for their ledge game. ness's want to avoid using their up B for recovery at all costs, and will often try to land on stage with their second jump and challenge with a fair, or air dodge. standing right at the ledge with shield is very powerful against that, as it can lead to a punish or force him to recover low where we can get the gimp. 4. can can ftilt him off the side b, so remember that. it's amazing. 5. spacing fair on shield makes it very hard for him to punish it with his slower speed. they will usually try to run in and attack/ grab or PK fire after that, but you can avoid most of that with down B or jab. 6. DI away and down on his fair strings. it will prevent the drag offstage. 7. remember that we win all challenges. try stuffing his nair with a fair or his other aerials. If i think of anything else i'll let you know.

 

[Litany]

I've been thinking a bit about Dark Dive (Up-Special) out-of-shield. Obviously it's not a great option from the front, but is it at all useful when trying to punish opponents attacking from behind?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How can ganondorf be such a limited character and be able to foster two opposing play styles (verm and Kalm)?

 

[Theosmeo]

How can ganondorf be such a limited character and be able to foster two opposing play styles (verm and Kalm)?

Because he's not limited, because none of his neutral options are very effective he requires real creativity and being able to hold onto momentum well. His punish game is also very expressive because it allows for many options that one would chose based on how they like to play. If you manage to get someone in the air you can Uair them for the safest damage, Bair for stage control, or Dair for style and damage, risking reading their tech wrong and letting them get away. This is an example but this kind of problem pops up many times for Ganon and it requires thinking outside a box and heavy knowledge of the character.


In melee when Jigglypuff and Fox fight people often root for Fox, this is because Fox has many options that are all less optimal than Puffs Bair. Even if Fox is at an advantage in that matchup no one ever roots for puff the underdog, and that's because puff is constantly Bairing and Fox is using the many creative options he has. That's not to say Puff is brainless but you get the point. Ganon's kit allows for gorgeous and devastating punishes, Sheiks allows for Fair strings.

 

[Vermanubis]

How can ganondorf be such a limited character and be able to foster two opposing play styles (verm and Kalm)?

This isn't directed at Kalm, but if Kalm's playstyle fits under the "aggressive" umbrella, then it applies across the board. I would argue that aggressive Ganon isn't successful. At least not against people who know how to fight Ganon. If Ganon's going in hard against someone in neutral -- and succeeding -- it's safe to say the person isn't a fit point of reference for what's successful as Ganon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

This isn't directed at Kalm, but if Kalm's playstyle fits under the "aggressive" umbrella, then it applies across the board. I would argue that aggressive Ganon isn't successful. At least not against people who know how to fight Ganon. If Ganon's going in hard against someone in neutral -- and succeeding -- it's safe to say the person isn't a fit point of reference for what's successful as Ganon.

I disagree entirely. Ganon can be played both aggressively and passively, and my aggressive playstyle does translate in to what is currently amongst the better placings of any Dorf. I'd argue that being passive is equally as good as being aggressive, the outcome is achieved in different ways.

 

[Vermanubis]

I disagree entirely. Ganon can be played both aggressively and passively, and my aggressive playstyle does translate in to what is currently amongst the better placings of any Dorf. I'd argue that being passive is equally as good as being aggressive, the outcome is achieved in different ways.

The most relevant thing to ask though is if, in an ideal setting, Ganon has the tools to apply aggressive pressure in neutral. Characters like Cloud do -- they have fast, low-commitment options. Ganon's options in neutral -- ones that're assertive and not defensive (e.g. not just trying to space, but actively hit with each movement) -- can't really be said to be conducive to aggression.

Ganon just doesn't have the properties to encourage being proactive in neutral, and if he somehow succeeds by being aggro in neutral, I'd argue it was A) a fluke to not count on, or B) playing someone who's not playing ideally. Again, the distinction here isn't between good players and bad, rather, those who have a clear idea of how to exploit Ganon's weaknesses, and it's in the ignorance of that knowledge that we're at liberty to go ham.

I think the best counterexample to aggro play is a guy by the name of Speclar who hangs out in the Ganon discord. Tag him sometime and play him. His knowledge of the MU is A+, and I feel he'll keep any Ganon who plays him honest.

 

[free33]

hey guys i got a question about ganon's footstool combos. I have heard that it is impossible to tech ganon's ( and falco's) dairs specifically when you (the opponent getting down aired) are standing on the stage. Is this true? or can it be teched like other dairs? furthermore, is it possible in general to tech while in a missed tech position(i.e. after being footstooled)?

 

[HeavyLobster]

hey guys i got a question about ganon's footstool combos. I have heard that it is impossible to tech ganon's ( and falco's) dairs specifically when you (the opponent getting down aired) are standing on the stage. Is this true? or can it be teched like other dairs? furthermore, is it possible in general to tech while in a missed tech position(i.e. after being footstooled)?

Can't tech dair while on the ground. Can't tech footstools in general.

 

[free33]

Can't tech dair while on the ground. Can't tech footstools in general.

Thanks bro. I know you can't tech footstools. just for clarification. i meant to ask if you can tech a spike while in a missed tech position (getting up, able to be jab locked) not specifically a footstool.

 

[Theosmeo]

Thanks bro. I know you can't tech footstools. just for clarification. i meant to ask if you can tech a spike while in a missed tech position (getting up, able to be jab locked) not specifically a footstool.

No, optimal footstool followup is often Dair(untechable) to footstool to dair ect. until dair knocks them too high

Looks cool and does a ton of %, but hard to do on yoshi/wario or others who are fast side to side in the air

 

[TxB | Ramsaur]

Hello fellow evil doers. North LA PR smash 4 player and cross game Ganon secondary/main here. Was wondering if we had a discord? Where most of the Ganon talk is, is it here or on discord or reddit etc.? who the Ganon Senpai are? And does DLA still play Ganon?

 

[adom4]

Hello fellow evil doers. North LA PR smash 4 player and cross game Ganon secondary/main here. Was wondering if we had a discord? Where most of the Ganon talk is, is it here or on discord or reddit etc.? who the Ganon Senpai are? And does DLA still play Ganon?

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-ganondorf-discord-group.429818/