Ganondorf....

[oOJaseOo]

against a falcon main i know i have to use my gannondorf to beat him sometimes if im not allowed to use toon

 

[Divilenta]

I agree with most (if not all) of the counter statements. Ganon is really bad, but not the worst. :D

 

[Hyrus]

I agree with most (if not all) of the counter statements. Ganon is really bad, but not the worst. :D

A lot of people seem to say that, but no one's naming a specific character who is worse and offering an explanation as to why they are worse/why Ganon is better than that character.

 

[Divilenta]

Well, I can't really say that anybody else has said already. I have nobody decent to play offline, so I spend most of my time battling Lv. 8 CPUs. :embarrass

So, my judgement is rather skewed. :D

 

[-Mars-]

A lot of people seem to say that, but no one's naming a specific character who is worse and offering an explanation as to why they are worse/why Ganon is better than that character.

Name me how Captain Falcon is better than Ganon?

 

[Frown]

The thing is, Ganondorf only needs to hit six times in order to KO his opponent.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Name me how Captain Falcon is better than Ganon?

- More vertical defense (about the same horizontal).
- His ground speed is about 4 to 5 times faster than ours.
- Air mobility.
- His DSmash, USmash, FAir and NAir kill faster than ours.
- ALL his moves come out faster.
- Has a better grab range.
- Don't tell me that he has a tough time killing his opponent. From what I know, Ganon can barely ever land moves on anyone. Captain Falcon's BAir, for example, comes out almost right away, faster than Ganondorfs, and has about the same power with less lag.
- Better recovery.
- UP-b has hitstun, unlike ours.
- He could actually punish out of shield, unlike Ganon. (Jab comes out at frame 2-3).
- Easier time getting around his opponent.
- Easier time juggly them.
- Doesn't have a blindspot above him. (Utilt.)

There are more but thats all I can think of at the moment.

The thing is, Ganondorf only needs to hit six times in order to KO his opponent.

With what move(s)? USmash, DAir, FSmash, FAir sweetspotted and maybe BAir? Yeah, only 3 of his moves KO successfully that early (excluding UTilt, and Warlord Punch), and above that, he has a tough time landing them on his opponent.

 

[DemonFart]

@marsulas:manliness pwns all.

 

[Swoops]

First Kalm, let's all of us completely ignore that you made yet another "Ganondorf Sucks" thread, the threads that we've been trying to keep out of here since the dawn of time. How this wasn't immediately deleted I don't know. It doesn't matter who made it or if it looks pretty, it is what it is. This out of the way, I'll humor you.

- More vertical defense (about the same horizontal).
How so? Excluding Falcon's, what, 2 frame faster jump, our u-air has more priority and more reach, while our u-smash is only 4 frames slower than Falcon's u-tilt and 1 frame faster than his u-smash. Personally I haven't had any problem with vertical defense, in fact most of my opponents are scared out of their mind to go above me.
- His ground speed is about 4 to 5 times faster than ours.
Yahoo, our power is about 4 to 5 times higher than his.
- Air mobility.
Mostly due to his speed, other than that, not much better than ours.
- His DSmash, USmash, FAir and NAir kill faster than ours.
The 4 frames slower d-smash I'll give you. U-smash, where are your facts to back that up? If anything our u-smash kills at just the same percents if not higher, and has useful IASA to make it safe in most circumstances. The knee is probably the hardest sweetspot to land in this game, and it's kill potential honestly isn't that much higher than a sweetspotted f-air (which is much easier to land by the way,) not to mention that knee is only 2 frames faster than our crush punch. Hell, I don't know about n-air. All I know is the difference isn't that great.
- ALL his moves come out faster.
No, just no. All of his aerials come out at the exact same frame Ganon's do, with the exception of knee which is 2 frames faster. His f-smash comes out faster, but is actually slower on recovery. D-tilt has the same start up, our u-smash is ver slightly faster and has better recovery, our d-smash is faster (yippee,) our f-tilt is slower by one frame and is overall a much better move, oh and our side b is actually 5 frames faster than falcon's.
- Has a better grab range.
- Don't tell me that he has a tough time killing his opponent. From what I know, Ganon can barely ever land moves on anyone. Captain Falcon's BAir, for example, comes out almost right away, faster than Ganondorfs, and has about the same power with less lag.
Falcon has an extremely tough time KOing his opponent. Falcon's b-air comes out on the same frame, and has less killing power. I've killed people with b-air when they were hat 80%, a Ganondorf too so they were heavy. Falcon's KOs are all situational and not until very high percents or off stage.
- Better recovery.
By a fractional margin. If falcon misses the hump on the way up when trying to recover against a ledge hogging opponent, he's usually dead. Ganons has better vertical reach too.
- UP-b has hitstun, unlike ours.
- He could actually punish out of shield, unlike Ganon. (Jab comes out at frame 2-3).
- Easier time getting around his opponent.
This is an extremely abstract argument.
- Easier time juggly them.
How? Ganon does really well at juggling from what I've experienced. Falcon is beat by any airdodge.
- Doesn't have a blindspot above him. (Utilt.)
I've explained this already.

With what move(s)? USmash, DAir, FSmash, FAir sweetspotted and maybe BAir? Yeah, only 3 of his moves KO successfully that early (excluding UTilt, and Warlord Punch), and above that, he has a tough time landing them on his opponent.

F-tilt too. If you're playing defense right it shouldn't be that hard to land these.

Kalm, you've made a lot of threads to help the Ganon boards, so I respect you and I really don't want to attack you too hard, but this is just another Ganondorf sucks thread plain and simple. I've held off on quite a bit of my argument because I don't want this to continue, and I'm tired of typing out huge paragraphs over and over again on the same thing. Please ask someone to take this down.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon can't put a constant pressure on his opponents.. They'll counter/punish most of his moves with ease. Reverse Uair is like to only move which can put at least A LITTE pressure on his foes; but it fails Vs short opponents.

It's too bad Ganon doesn't have any Jab cancel-game, due to his lack of a "one two"-jab ;/

A "one two" or a "one two three"-jab would help him so, so much in putting pressure on his opponents, and keep him from getting punished as much as he does.

 

[stRIP]

I've killed people with b-air when they were hat 80%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uknLHEsO8Ss
1.12 x)

A bit more than 80%, but it would kill at 80% too.

 

[Hyrus]

The red! It burns!

while our (ganon) u-smash is only 4 frames slower than Falcon's u-tilt and 1 frame faster than his u-smash

Ganon's and Falcon's Uair are both pretty great.

Falcon's Utilt and Usmash have lasting hitboxes, which is where I feel they are both superior to Ganon's Usmash. Utilt also moves Falcon forward a bit, while Falcon can get a nice slide out of his Usmash.

(Falcon's air mobility) Mostly due to his speed, other than that, not much better than ours.

I can't agree. Falcon's very fast and flexible in the air. His jumps are nice, his aerials are relatively quick/don't have severe landing lag.

- His DSmash, USmash, FAir and NAir kill faster than ours.

U-smash, where are your facts to back that up? The knee is probably the hardest sweetspot to land in this game, and it's kill potential honestly isn't that much higher than a sweetspotted f-air (which is much easier to land by the way,) not to mention that knee is only 2 frames faster than our crush punch.

Firstly, Ray Kalm. Usmash isn't that great of a kill move, and Nair doesn't kill often either (since it's a frequent approach).

Secondly, Swoops. The Knee of Justice is probably one of the easiest sweetspoters to land in Brawl once you feel it out (though it isn't a typical approach). It's significantly harder to reliably hit with Zelda's, Mario/Dk's Fair, several Dairs, etc. The Knee also has a persistent hitbox that "flubs", which makes for a potential gimping tool and can trip a grounded opponent into an easy combo.

D-tilt has the same start up, our u-smash is ver slightly faster and has better recovery, our d-smash is faster (yippee,)

While i'm not defending Ray Kalm's exaggerated, claim, you should acknowledge that Falcon's Dsmash doesn't hit an opponent into the second kick. One hit sends an opponent away, where as Ganon's Clumsy Kicks sometimes only hits once with the low knockback hit, putting Ganon in a bad place. I'd say Falcon's Dsmash is far more useful than Ganon's.

Falcon has an extremely tough time KOing his opponent. Falcon's KOs are all situational and not until very high percents or off stage.

This is the truth. Although I will point out that because Falcon isn't nearly as tall as Ganon, his Bair has less trouble hitting people.

(Falcon has better recovery) By a fractional margin. If falcon misses the hump on the way up when trying to recover against a ledge hogging opponent, he's usually dead. Ganons has better vertical reach too.

Falcon has significantly better recovery than Ganon. Falcon's upB has a tremendous amount of mobility and can change directions on the fly. He seems to slide around a ledge easily with it, making it easy to warp onto the stage if he's being ledgehogged. Plus, his jump's are nicer too. With an air jump, i'd wager Falcon's vertical recovery rivals Ganon's, but I have no hard data.

===

The real argument in Ganon Vs Falcon comes down to this.

Falcon has a few approach options, decent recovery and even gets use out of his Neutral B, but ultimately lacks priority and has lackluster pressure on opponents. Ganon has great damage and KO power, some ridiculous punishing moves, but his crippled mobility, lackluster recovery and absent pressure/approach game hold him back. Both characters are punished easily, through Ganon's lag and Falcon's low priority.

The major reason i'd say Falcon might have anything over Ganon is his speed. Where Ganon doesn't deal well with foes in his personal space, Falcon has a few options and can mindgame a bit better with his mobility.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

"Ganon sucks" threads make me sad. Me and Smurfydorf will be lurking at the Lucas Boards for awhile lol

 

[TP]

While i'm not defending Ray Kalm's exaggerated, claim, you should acknowledge that Falcon's Dsmash doesn't hit an opponent into the second kick. One hit sends an opponent away, where as Ganon's Clumsy Kicks sometimes only hits once with the low knockback hit, putting Ganon in a bad place. I'd say Falcon's Dsmash is far more useful than Ganon's.

Hyrus, you will never hear a Ganon main call our Dsmash good. It is an awful move, pure and simple. Swoops was joking the second he even mentioned our Dsmash.

Other than that, good points. I think CF has better vertical recovery. Have you guys actually tested it? At the end, he can snap to the stage from far below. It's like an invisible tether.

 

[Divilenta]

"Ganon sucks" threads make me sad. Me and Smurfydorf will be lurking at the Lucas Boards for awhile lol

Aye. Meself and Bloodydorf shall lurk the Zelda boards.

Bai. :D

 

[Swoops]

The red! It burns!

Ganon's and Falcon's Uair are both pretty great.

Falcon's Utilt and Usmash have lasting hitboxes, which is where I feel they are both superior to Ganon's Usmash. Utilt also moves Falcon forward a bit, while Falcon can get a nice slide out of his Usmash.

I can't agree. Falcon's very fast and flexible in the air. His jumps are nice, his aerials are relatively quick/don't have severe landing lag.

Firstly, Ray Kalm. Usmash isn't that great of a kill move, and Nair doesn't kill often either (since it's a frequent approach).

Secondly, Swoops. The Knee of Justice is probably one of the easiest sweetspoters to land in Brawl once you feel it out (though it isn't a typical approach). It's significantly harder to reliably hit with Zelda's, Mario/Dk's Fair, several Dairs, etc. The Knee also has a persistent hitbox that "flubs", which makes for a potential gimping tool and can trip a grounded opponent into an easy combo.


While i'm not defending Ray Kalm's exaggerated, claim, you should acknowledge that Falcon's Dsmash doesn't hit an opponent into the second kick. One hit sends an opponent away, where as Ganon's Clumsy Kicks sometimes only hits once with the low knockback hit, putting Ganon in a bad place. I'd say Falcon's Dsmash is far more useful than Ganon's.


This is the truth. Although I will point out that because Falcon isn't nearly as tall as Ganon, his Bair has less trouble hitting people.

Falcon has significantly better recovery than Ganon. Falcon's upB has a tremendous amount of mobility and can change directions on the fly. He seems to slide around a ledge easily with it, making it easy to warp onto the stage if he's being ledgehogged. Plus, his jump's are nicer too. With an air jump, i'd wager Falcon's vertical recovery rivals Ganon's, but I have no hard data.

===

The real argument in Ganon Vs Falcon comes down to this.

Falcon has a few approach options, decent recovery and even gets use out of his Neutral B, but ultimately lacks priority and has lackluster pressure on opponents. Ganon has great damage and KO power, some ridiculous punishing moves, but his crippled mobility, lackluster recovery and absent pressure/approach game hold him back. Both characters are punished easily, through Ganon's lag and Falcon's low priority.

The major reason i'd say Falcon might have anything over Ganon is his speed. Where Ganon doesn't deal well with foes in his personal space, Falcon has a few options and can mindgame a bit better with his mobility.

I use red to intimidate :O...and when I'm slightly irritated lol.

I still see a lot of usefulness in the fact that our u-smash is safe in more circumstances that falcon's u-smash is. Personally I think they both have things that keep them close to even.

...you've bested me on that one.

I really don't see knee as an easy sweetspot when it's widely considered one of the most awkward in the game, especially by Falcon mains. They may land knees well, but they still regard it as an extremely awkward sweetspot. Factor out large characters which every sweet spot is easy to hit them with, and you still get a hard to land sweetspot that is very crucial to falcon KOing. The trip does help, but we're talking about KO potential.

Yea, I wasn't defending Ganon's d-smash at all...d-smash is horrible. I was just trying to dismiss all of kalm's simplified claims about Falcon's speed>Ganon's.

Double jump does help, but I've tested it out and Ganon's upB does indeed go higher than falcon's. I definitely agree that falcon's upB has much more maneuverability when it comes to ledges, but it also has some weird properties when it reaches it's peak and it can go haywire. Not saying that it will happen often or much at all but I don't think that Falcon's recovery is significantly better than falcon's.

That's actually a pretty good sum up >.>. Most of the reason I would hold Ganon above Falcon is his much better KO potential (don't say that he can never hit is KO moves when he has an opportunity with most moves starting at like 90%,) much better priority, greater reach, better damage racking, and much more reliable traps. Ganon has the ability to put on some nasty pressure with correct spacing, and his defense is superb. His approach game is close to nonexistent (if not that,) but the pressure he can put on with certain moves and pace control with side b. The fact that ganon cant get many attacks in is extremely helped out by his amazing damage dealing potential with few moves, and his KO potential combined with his amazing edgeguarding ability.

I think speed is mostly the only thing helping out Falcon. It creates a decent approach, but that can be moot when you're playing such a defensive game. The speed helps with punishing and getting more attacks in, but with Falcon's lack of KO potential he's in trouble. The lack of KO moves would be okay if he were given decent priority and more duration in his aerials (f-air helps,) but the crappy priority means he's constantly trying to use his speed to hopefully get inside when almost every character is keeping him out with much higher priority and a defense that Brawl supports.

 

[-Mars-]

I can't agree. Falcon's very fast and flexible in the air. His jumps are nice, his aerials are relatively quick/don't have severe landing lag.

Secondly, Swoops. The Knee of Justice is probably one of the easiest sweetspoters to land in Brawl once you feel it out (though it isn't a typical approach). It's significantly harder to reliably hit with Zelda's, Mario/Dk's Fair, several Dairs, etc. The Knee also has a persistent hitbox that "flubs", which makes for a potential gimping tool and can trip a grounded opponent into an easy combo.


The real argument in Ganon Vs Falcon comes down to this.

Falcon has a few approach options, decent recovery and even gets use out of his Neutral B, but ultimately lacks priority and has lackluster pressure on opponents. Ganon has great damage and KO power, some ridiculous punishing moves, but his crippled mobility, lackluster recovery and absent pressure/approach game hold him back. Both characters are punished easily, through Ganon's lag and Falcon's low priority.

The major reason i'd say Falcon might have anything over Ganon is his speed. Where Ganon doesn't deal well with foes in his personal space, Falcon has a few options and can mindgame a bit better with his mobility.

Ganon has three auto cancelled aerials, his nair has minimal lag, and his fair is safe on block a fair amount of the time whereas CF's fair is not.

Lol at you claiming that Zelda's sweetspots are hard to land.....that **** is easy to land and she has guaranteed setups into her bair and fair. Her bair is one of the better OoS options in the whole game.

I would say that Ganon has a little more mindgame potential with his tech chase game and with his AC aerials.

 

[Z1GMA]

Lol at you claiming that Zelda's sweetspots are hard to land

I too, found that pretty funny..

------------------------

Falcon's Knee is hard to just throw out and sweetspot at any time..
It's easiest to land if you can predict a laggy manouver, such as a get up attack or a climb up attack.

 

[fonzi21]

Speed although a big factor isn't everything. Sonic for instance builds serious damage, but isn't as good as he could be due to lack of finishing moves (don't get me wrong he is a good character, but could be so much better in my opinion with KO ability). Ganon is always in the match against any character if played defensive, and spaced correctly. He only needs to land like 3-5 hits compared to most others 10 or more to rack serious damage. Ganon can't go in throwing out Bairs or Fairs or spam a projectile, or anything of the sort to pressure his opponent. I believe he is all about bait, and punishment.
You can get Combo'ed by Kirby to about 40%, Diddy kong can rack up huge damage from banana game, Metaknight deals serious damage, 3D chain grab does close to 40% or more across a stage. Ganon lands a Dair followed by an Usmash and he deals 56% roughly? He can be Instantly back in the game from two hits. Sure it is tough to land moves, but when you do it hurts your opponent big time.

As far as ledge game goes. I think Ganon has a pretty good one. Tipman is a great gimper move on almost any character you just have to know when, and who to actually ledge guard. His Spike is just incredible. His Wizkick ledge cancel is great for edge guard. He has a few options. They just aren't usable in every situation. Nor are they always the safest things to do. He has great options you just have to be more careful then other characters on when to use them.

Ganon has a terrible time with everyone in the cast I agree, but he isn't out cold on every fight. As far as falcon goes. Not sure it is a matchup I don't have tons of experience with. Falcon according to the Tier list has a worse time with all the other characters then Ganon. That is why he is last I thought.

This is just my opinion.

 

[ZeonStar]

I tell you what, Ganon is really good against all of the low tiers and alot of the mid tiers. But when it comes to the top/high tier characters, its basically impossible if the person using them is at a certain skill level.

Speaking of which, if there were more low tier tournaments, I would ****ing be at every ****ing one and I would **** everyone.

 

[Collective of Bears]

You traitor. Trying to put Ganon at the bottom... I should Warlock Punch you for that.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You traitor. Trying to put Ganon at the bottom... I should Warlock Punch you for that.

I'm not betraying anyone. I'm just stating the truth.

 

[Squirrely]

Ganon is at the bottom. I don't know why people are trying to cloud that. You shouldn't be picking him to win tournaments. Fun games btw, Kalm. Also what was with that :-/ in your message, I feel like I offended you or something.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I'm not betraying anyone. I'm just stating the truth.

As far as I can tell, the main purpose of this thread was to convince everyone that Ganondorf should be lower than he already is. And it's even coming from a Ganon main. Ergo, betrayal.

*Warlock Punch*

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon is at the bottom. I don't know why people are trying to cloud that. You shouldn't be picking him to win tournaments. Fun games btw, Kalm. Also what was with that :-/ in your message, I feel like I offended you or something.

Well, I had basically just awoke after being sick all day, and when I saw my visitors message, I wasn't going to deny a promised challenge.

I was have asleep while fighting you, still am. :-/

 

[Divilenta]

If you main Meta Knight or Snake, your voice is lost in the multitude. You're not really unique.

If you main Ganon, your voice carries farther. You are one of the few, the proud...the Ganons. :D

 

[OfTheEarth]

If you main Meta Knight or Snake, your voice is lost in the multitude. You're not really unique.

If you main Ganon, your voice carries farther. You are one of the few, the proud...the Ganons. :D

That's got to be the greatest statement i've ever heard
like I love link
people give me **** because but i jus twant to be original
i honestly think snake can take a little more skill
if you don't camp and throw grenades and when they get in close just use your tilts.
and if you'd pla y alittle more tactical

but not many people do
My sensei plays with ganon dorf
he got second place at otronicon in orlando florida in january only using him and Cfalcon

it really doesn't matter as long as you play with who you want to play

 

[Collective of Bears]

That's got to be the greatest statement i've ever heard
like I love link
people give me **** because but i jus twant to be original
i honestly think snake can take a little more skill
if you don't camp and throw grenades and when they get in close just use your tilts.
and if you'd pla y alittle more tactical

but not many people do
My sensei plays with ganon dorf
he got second place at otronicon in orlando florida in january only using him and Cfalcon

it really doesn't matter as long as you play with who you want to play

And this is coming from a guy with 3 posts. SWF is really starting to look up nowadays.

 

[choknater]

If you main Meta Knight or Snake, your voice is lost in the multitude. You're not really unique.

If you main Ganon, your voice carries farther. You are one of the few, the proud, the weak...the Ganons. :D

Fixed. hahahah!

I really liked Li's videos hahaha

(Gah, I know everyone's gonna yell at me saying "oh, he sucks, japanese players are not smart, american so-and-so is better! i think he's fun to watch )

 

[fromundaman]

That's got to be the greatest statement i've ever heard
like I love link
people give me **** because but i jus twant to be original
i honestly think snake can take a little more skill
if you don't camp and throw grenades and when they get in close just use your tilts.
and if you'd pla y alittle more tactical

but not many people do
My sensei plays with ganon dorf
he got second place at otronicon in orlando florida in january only using him and Cfalcon

it really doesn't matter as long as you play with who you want to play

Provided you know your characters' limitations, sure. For example, getting second in a tourny with just those two is really impressive, but if you go in there thinking "Ganon **** no matter what!" it just won't work unless you're MUCH better at the game than everyone else and/or they are clueless about the matchups.


Not sure I agree with Snake taking more skill than Link or Ganon though... He has a somewhat high learning curve, but still...

 

[PK-ow!]

Provided you know your characters' limitations, sure. For example, getting second in a tourny with just those two is really impressive, but if you go in there thinking "Ganon **** no matter what!" it just won't work unless you're MUCH better at the game than everyone else and/or they are clueless about the matchups.


Not sure I agree with Snake taking more skill than Link or Ganon though... He has a somewhat high learning curve, but still...

There are fluctuations that are hard to pin down at low low level play, for sure.

I think though Snake is harder to get to high enough level, and he is at a disadvantage at mid level. Because, sure, you have tilts. You have a rocket launcher for super mistakes that get read. And Mortar Slide is like the fricking easiest thing to do and fairly easy to apply decnetly. But a Snake who doesn't practice with those Nades, or his explosives at all, really - including Usmash/Dsmash - just won't be able to use them to his advantage against another guy who is at a mid level of play / knows wtf he's doing.

It's somewhat an uninteresting question. Snake is top tier, that's pretty much for certain. Snake's highest level play does have one of the richest, if not the richest, (and likewise toughest) learning curves. That's true now.

. . . where am I even going with this? See? I don't even know. Snake is high learning curve. Ganon is ***** by just about everyone. Both have their work cut out for them. There's not much analysis to do here.

Oh btw I'm picking up Snake secondary. To deal with ICs and stuff like that. Not Meta though. By thorn and by stone, I'll stick out the matchup with that ****er for as long as he's legal.

 

[Z1GMA]

Snake is easy to learn but hard to master.
Ganon is hard to learn and hard to master.

 

[@HomE]

Snake is easy to learn but hard to master.
Ganon is hard to learn and hard to master.

And playing Ganon makes your balls get HUGE!

 

[Z1GMA]

And playing Ganon makes your balls get HUGE!

Yea, if you fight IC or Falco, that is.

 

[Divilenta]

Fixed. hahahah!

Watch as you get hit for 50% straight combo.

But, yeah, I kinda lol'd. I was going off of the Marines commercial. :D

And playing Ganon makes your balls get HUGE!

I almost Sig'd this. :D

 

[:034:]

Snake is easy to learn but hard to master.
Ganon is hard to learn and hard to master.

Snake is only hard to master if you wanna be flashy. :/

Seriously, camping with grenades and spacing with tilts =/= a hard character

 

[p8nted]

This thread is full of win. The more I play Ganon, the more I realize that he really is the worst.

Japanese tier list has it right: Ganon in his own tier at the very bottom.

Also, a lot Snake's set-ups are hard to learn. Learning how to spam tilts is not hard but that's not enough.

 

[Clai]

Japanese tier list has it right: Ganon in his own tier at the very bottom.

I want to see this alleged tier list. There's no way he's a tier behind Captain Falcon, who I believe is a worse character than Ganondorf. Bah, people are just not giving the old man enough credit (and yes, I do see that rooting for a character to be the second worst in the game to be a bit sad, but really, Captain Falcon is just terrible).

Choknater, don't count out the Japanese just because they play differently than us. They play a few characters far better than we can, and that includes Li's Ganondorf. The reason you think we'd insult the Japanese is that they don't do well with the characters that can beat everyone, but only if they commit to be completely gay. I'm talking about Metaknight, Dedede, and Falco. We own Japan with those characters.

 

[p8nted]

The list was actually posted in a thread by Rihuganon that's like 10 down from this one (right now anyway).

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203264

It's on the middle of the second page.

S:MetaKnight,Snake,Falco
A:R.O.B,Diddy,Marth,Pit,Fox
B:Mr. Game & Watch,Wolf,Toon Link
C:Ice Climbers,Olimar,Sheik,Zero Suit Samus,Pikachu,Lucario
D:Kirby,King Dedede,Mario,Lucas,Wario,Charizard
E:Zelda,Ike,Donkey Kong,Ness,Link,Luigi,Yoshi,Pokemon Trainer,Squirtle,Ivysaur
F:Sonic,Bowser,Samus,Captain Falcon,Jigglypuff,Peach
G:Ganondolf(GOD RANK)