kupo15
Smash Hero
The speed up is not needed, but at least do the hitbox.
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Ganondorf: Official Character Discussion
- Thread starter KishSquared
- Start date
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
If anyone can think of something to do with the punch, I'm all ears. Hitbox on frame 35 from 70 is about as fast as it be while looking and sounding natural. I can't really think of anything unique to do to it though that isn't an echo of either his f-smash or fair. Bonus points to someone that can make it a tool for dealing with projectiles / zoning.
Also, I was playing against my friend's wolf, testing Giza's non-techable-choke-fix, and we had some mixed results. The d-tilt and jab were doable, although the f-tilt was not. It also appeared slower than I remembered when it was 1.25x. I don't know if this is a function of the speed up not being applied correctly, or if Giza's CAM swapping gives a smaller frame advantage.
Of course, whether we actually want it to set up for f-tilt etc universally is a debate in and of itself, but I though we'd decided on IRC for the moment to make it so.
Also, I was playing against my friend's wolf, testing Giza's non-techable-choke-fix, and we had some mixed results. The d-tilt and jab were doable, although the f-tilt was not. It also appeared slower than I remembered when it was 1.25x. I don't know if this is a function of the speed up not being applied correctly, or if Giza's CAM swapping gives a smaller frame advantage.
Of course, whether we actually want it to set up for f-tilt etc universally is a debate in and of itself, but I though we'd decided on IRC for the moment to make it so.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
I believe setting up for an ftilt universally would be fine. As I mentioned in the public ganon thread, it's not like the choke is that hard to avoid and punish. If you get grabbed by it, you deserve to take some hefty punishment, and that includes death at high percents.
I really don't know what we could do with the punch. If we had the ability to give it momentum, I'd suggest giving it backwards momentum near the start of it and make it autocancel upon landing, because giving it a non-attack utility is about the only way I can think of not making it take the job of another one of his moves >_>
Also, while checking a visitor message today, I saw this further down:
I really don't know what we could do with the punch. If we had the ability to give it momentum, I'd suggest giving it backwards momentum near the start of it and make it autocancel upon landing, because giving it a non-attack utility is about the only way I can think of not making it take the job of another one of his moves >_>
Also, while checking a visitor message today, I saw this further down:
Throw it in a set and test it out?shell said:
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I'm 95% sure Side-b is currently able to be reaction chased. Obviously not good.
F-tilt is only guaranteed on the same people it was in vBrawl. You guys can look up the list if you want but it's around 3/5ths the cast.
It's actually a huge needed buff. It gives Ganon the fear factor. One mistake could lead to a boat load of damage.
Basically we gotta slow the release down so he can get d-tilt guaranteed on the whole cast and no more. Make it require frame perfect timing.
F-tilt is only guaranteed on the same people it was in vBrawl. You guys can look up the list if you want but it's around 3/5ths the cast.
It's actually a huge needed buff. It gives Ganon the fear factor. One mistake could lead to a boat load of damage.
Basically we gotta slow the release down so he can get d-tilt guaranteed on the whole cast and no more. Make it require frame perfect timing.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
I'm actually not sure what the frame data looks like, but do you think it would be worth it to trade a frame of endlag for a frame of opening lag to prevent techchases on reaction and open up new options from the sideB? Like I said, I'm not sure if there's anything that only needs one more frame to work, but if there is, then that would be pretty cool, imo.
Team Giza
Smash Lord
I can't mess around with the speed stuff anytime soon. I would suggest people try messing with the speed value needed for my choke fix and the ending lag for Ganondorf. Just watch out for noises.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
The F-Tilt:
1. Kirby
2. Pikachu
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. Luigi
5. Diddy
6. Meta Knight
7. Ivysuar
8. Charizard
9. Ike
10. Yoshi
11. Ice Climbers
12. King Dedede
13. Toon Link
14. R.O.B.
15. Capt. Olimar
16. Jigglypuff
No one new was added to F-tilt when the choke used to be untechable but had the release speed up. Least to my knowledge
1. Kirby
2. Pikachu
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. Luigi
5. Diddy
6. Meta Knight
7. Ivysuar
8. Charizard
9. Ike
10. Yoshi
11. Ice Climbers
12. King Dedede
13. Toon Link
14. R.O.B.
15. Capt. Olimar
16. Jigglypuff
No one new was added to F-tilt when the choke used to be untechable but had the release speed up. Least to my knowledge
Revven
FrankerZ
Giza I'm hoping you're planning to fix the glitch with Ganon's untechable Side B where you go into your stand animation if you're held over the ledge instead of grabbing the ledge like before...
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I haven't played in a while, but what makes this so bad? It's in instant kill or looks funny?
Revven
FrankerZ
Pretty sure it's like death... because they're standing in the air and falling down...
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
lol yeah but if ganon misses he dies so it's fair. ganon deserves more broken-ness :D
fix that plz -.-
fix that plz -.-
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
If you hold back while going over the edge with a side-b Ganondorf can save himself by grabbing on backwards. Doesn't work with Falcon.
Without seeing this bug I think it sounds ok. If it really is an instant kill when right next to the ledge then don't put yourself in that situation. Someone has to be literally teetering over the ledge for them to be choked and then grab the edge, it's not like this is something that's going to be spammable. What's Ganondorf gonna do? Camp to set it up? haha
Revven
FrankerZ
It's still a bug, it doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it just because it's situational... people will claim we're stupid for not fixing something like this...
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
We can also claim that Silven's find about Falco...:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyD9ySEmxas&feature=channel_page
...is a situational bug, being that it has to be in a Falco ditto when back throw is done. Does that mean we should leave it alone? ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyD9ySEmxas&feature=channel_page
...is a situational bug, being that it has to be in a Falco ditto when back throw is done. Does that mean we should leave it alone? ...
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
No, cause it happens all the time on every back throw from every location in the stage. Even if it doesn't happen all the time it can happen randomly then with no rhyme or reason. EVERYONE now knows that getting flame choked next to the edge means death against Ganon, regardless. FYI the choke can be DI'd so you might be able to DI it back onto the stage. We claim it's a bug and needs to be fixed, then what about the momentum side effects?We can also claim that Silven's find about Falco...:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyD9ySEmxas&feature=channel_page
...is a situational bug, being that it has to be in a Falco ditto when back throw is done. Does that mean we should leave it alone? ...
Once again, I haven't seen this bug, I've been busy in WoW and playing Okami, but if what I'm gathering from information it doesn't actually sound that bad. Sounds to me like Ganondorf has a devastating new trick in his bag, so watch out. I'll look into it and see what's going on with this, but I don't see what's so wrong with giving Ganon this little Ace in the hole.
Revven
FrankerZ
No of course not, we can't DO anything to that yet though legitimately because it has to deal with the throw, which we can't modify yet until the throw mod is ported to NTSC-U... hell, I don't even think we KNOW what the real problem is (other than the fact that it's probably due to the Bthrow's angle or something).We can also claim that Silven's find about Falco...:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyD9ySEmxas&feature=channel_page
...is a situational bug, being that it has to be in a Falco ditto when back throw is done. Does that mean we should leave it alone? ...
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
So until then...no falco dittos allowed...got it. lmao i'm obviously joking. just saying that things that weren't meant to be there should be looked at more closely, and be determined if it's needing removal or not.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
I'm fine with characters not grabbing the ledge, but it should be a mild meteor until mid-high percents, not an insta-kill.
I'd rather flesh him out with a couple more interesting things rather than one situational ace in the hole. For example, I'd like to moderately improve his grab/throw game (no longer has reliable throws to kills without the 100% momentum) and I'd like to play around with the wind-damaging-u-tilt and probably call that **** gold.
Just for the lulz, I was looking at most character's standing grab range to size ratio. DDD's is around .9, DK's was high .8 something, Zard's was mid .8, Bowser's was .6 something, and Ganon's was 0.49. He does have a fast standing grab, but it's only marginally faster than DDD and DK's, I believe. >.<
I'm working on a solution to test upon release of the next engine...
I'd rather flesh him out with a couple more interesting things rather than one situational ace in the hole. For example, I'd like to moderately improve his grab/throw game (no longer has reliable throws to kills without the 100% momentum) and I'd like to play around with the wind-damaging-u-tilt and probably call that **** gold.
Just for the lulz, I was looking at most character's standing grab range to size ratio. DDD's is around .9, DK's was high .8 something, Zard's was mid .8, Bowser's was .6 something, and Ganon's was 0.49. He does have a fast standing grab, but it's only marginally faster than DDD and DK's, I believe. >.<
I'm working on a solution to test upon release of the next engine...
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
My main fear is that it is someone how unfixable without a throw mod. If with a throw mod it becomes a mild meteor that is cool, but I don't see a problem with Ganondorf having a stupid rare one-shot on a slow and predictable move. It's not like he can even combo into it. This whole thing has a striking similarity to Fox's Melee D-throw. It had that bizarre ability to one shot people and no one complained about it cause you saw it like once every two months. I forsee this being the same thing.
The Cape
Smash Master
Ganon upB hitboxes:
140B641E 13041114 (I think this is the problem one)
14016432 0316911C (sparks)
140B641E 13041114 (I think this is the problem one)
14016432 0316911C (sparks)
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
That was actually a meteor <_<. It could be meteor canceled.
Though I do agree with the rest of your argument.
The Cape
Smash Master
Difference between a technique (Fox D throw with bad DI on the ledge) and this thing which is a huge bug with ugly results.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
Did some experimenting with the standing grab a while back. First I wanted to just increase the size of the hitbox, but that proved impossible. Then, I tried swapping the standing grab with the pivot grab ala CAM, but the turn-around is hard-codded into the animation, so that didn't work. Finally, I sped up the dash attack and did some CAMery.
CAM -- if previous action is shield and current action grab, replace with dash grab
1400001B 00340036
Frame Speed:
140B0036 3F8CCCCD
14000036 3FB00000
Dash Grab: 135% startup (hits frame 8-9 from 11-12), then 110% speed (ends 31 from 37).
The end result is grab 8-9, end 31. Compare this to the standing grab of grab 7-8, end 29. There's still an incentive to use the standing grab if possible, but the dash grab has really become the grab of choice. I only replaced the shield (standing) grab with shield (dash) grab because in every other situation you can just input a dash grab. I need some more time testing this, but I like it so far.
CAM -- if previous action is shield and current action grab, replace with dash grab
1400001B 00340036
Frame Speed:
140B0036 3F8CCCCD
14000036 3FB00000
Dash Grab: 135% startup (hits frame 8-9 from 11-12), then 110% speed (ends 31 from 37).
The end result is grab 8-9, end 31. Compare this to the standing grab of grab 7-8, end 29. There's still an incentive to use the standing grab if possible, but the dash grab has really become the grab of choice. I only replaced the shield (standing) grab with shield (dash) grab because in every other situation you can just input a dash grab. I need some more time testing this, but I like it so far.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
blah blah blah
Techable side-b
blah blah blah
I disagree
blah blah blah
You know I don't want techable side-b but that's not the point of this post. Point is it seems I'm outnumbered here so looks like I gotta help come up with something. Try these:
Speed up the start and a little bit of the release to help him have any chance of a tech chase. Leave damage alone. Speed up should be enough of a buff if it's techable and you'd honestly see it a lot more helping keep him diverse.
Go with Shanus's idea
Find a way to give an option at getting people into the air after a side-b.
Techable side-b
blah blah blah
I disagree
blah blah blah
You know I don't want techable side-b but that's not the point of this post. Point is it seems I'm outnumbered here so looks like I gotta help come up with something. Try these:
Speed up the start and a little bit of the release to help him have any chance of a tech chase. Leave damage alone. Speed up should be enough of a buff if it's techable and you'd honestly see it a lot more helping keep him diverse.
Go with Shanus's idea
Find a way to give an option at getting people into the air after a side-b.
Revven
FrankerZ
Well, GoG, I dunno if you realize it but Ganon can actually techchase you from Side B with Dash Attack and Dair depending on the character. For example, against Zeon, I was Wario who doesn't have a really good techroll. I'm pretty sure that a few times he hit me with Dair after Side B (techchase of course) and I was brought into the air... with which he could Uair me or something. Dash attack is actually kind of weird, if I DI up and in, I go behind Ganon but I still am in the air... so two moves work ...
Thinking about Dtilt, isn't Ganon fast enough (against SOME character's techrolls) to DC a Dtilt from Side B? What I mean is, techchase, DC, Dtilt and there you go, they're in the air! I dunno about it though as I don't use Ganon but, I think it could work against people who have poor techrolls (poor as in short ranged or not that fast). But see, there's already depth created by the Side B being techable >.>
Thinking about Dtilt, isn't Ganon fast enough (against SOME character's techrolls) to DC a Dtilt from Side B? What I mean is, techchase, DC, Dtilt and there you go, they're in the air! I dunno about it though as I don't use Ganon but, I think it could work against people who have poor techrolls (poor as in short ranged or not that fast). But see, there's already depth created by the Side B being techable >.>
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Maybe if he could DC during the initial dash animation...
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Theres always pivoting into it. Though pivoting into Dtilt would probably be pretty tricky.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
See above.
If we want ganon to have guaranteed followups while making him still have to work for the kill moves off it, I think this would be the way to go.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
+1 to Leaf's idea.
D
Deleted member
Guest
a cinceling engine is one of the things on my list already (for supahbarlw, but I already saw some cases B+ could use it).
it will be based of the dash cancel with crouch/shield ofcourse.
it will be based of the dash cancel with crouch/shield ofcourse.
The Cape
Smash Master
Yes, no, maybe so?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAdyr4sEOkI
Kaiser made this:
Ganon Neutral B does 12 damage and does 3/4 of the sheild in damage, KOs around 130. Add a frame speed mod in and it should be excellent. The turn around punch is unchanged.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c8d125abced84dd0d1014a7a667fa2b4eb1597f0ffb4cf845be6ba49b5870170
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAdyr4sEOkI
Kaiser made this:
Ganon Neutral B does 12 damage and does 3/4 of the sheild in damage, KOs around 130. Add a frame speed mod in and it should be excellent. The turn around punch is unchanged.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c8d125abced84dd0d1014a7a667fa2b4eb1597f0ffb4cf845be6ba49b5870170
Veril
Frame Savant
I actually liked Ganon's nair before. That s*** looks pretty sick though.
The up-tilt is definitely worth trying out.
Both need tweeking, like increasing the bkb very slightly on the nair and adding more kbg to the end. Comboing off that move would be... scary stuff with ganon
The up-tilt is definitely worth trying out.
Both need tweeking, like increasing the bkb very slightly on the nair and adding more kbg to the end. Comboing off that move would be... scary stuff with ganon
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
I think the U-tilt has possibilities, but it looks a little too robotic for my tastes. I would like to try adding early IASA frames to take advantage of wind and add some SA frames ~10 frames before and including when he swings his foot down. This simultaneously gives a mild perk to slightly encourage the old usage, as well as opens interesting new doors.
The most you can speed up WP and have it still look good is hitting on ~35 from 70, if you're interested:
14460112 3F800000
14000112 40000000
I'll test the Nair tomorrow, but my first impression is that it could use GFX to show it's hitboxes, as it looks like they are (or should be..?) much larger than his tightly-curled body. I'm kinda picturing a Mewtwo-ish-nair.
I've been doing a bit of work on Ganon's gravity -- mainly raising his F-Grav slightly and then very slightly upping his aerial mobility (.3->.4) so his recovery isn't nerfed. His SHFFLs feel so much better. I like where it's going and I'll post it when I'm done.
Also, I added IASA frames to the Bair and Uair so that you can SH-Bair/Uair-DJ and made the grab range match the animation. Lastly, I polished up the Jab animation.
The most you can speed up WP and have it still look good is hitting on ~35 from 70, if you're interested:
14460112 3F800000
14000112 40000000
I'll test the Nair tomorrow, but my first impression is that it could use GFX to show it's hitboxes, as it looks like they are (or should be..?) much larger than his tightly-curled body. I'm kinda picturing a Mewtwo-ish-nair.
I've been doing a bit of work on Ganon's gravity -- mainly raising his F-Grav slightly and then very slightly upping his aerial mobility (.3->.4) so his recovery isn't nerfed. His SHFFLs feel so much better. I like where it's going and I'll post it when I'm done.
Also, I added IASA frames to the Bair and Uair so that you can SH-Bair/Uair-DJ and made the grab range match the animation. Lastly, I polished up the Jab animation.
The Cape
Smash Master
Excellent work as always Shell and thanks for the Warlock Punch stuff.
Would love to see the nair prettied up as its just a demonstration of the idea.
Would love to see the nair prettied up as its just a demonstration of the idea.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Creating new moves for characters will open up a WORLD of criticism and hate for a project that hasn't gained a lot of ground over the summer here. The n-air is cool but will be Wolf's Shine all over again. A blow to our credibility we can't afford.
I agree with everything else SHeLL said about U-tilt and am interested to see his gravity changes, though I think his current setting is perfect.
I agree with everything else SHeLL said about U-tilt and am interested to see his gravity changes, though I think his current setting is perfect.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
After a bit of experimenting, I'm back. Here are modified .pac / txt files with what I was working on:
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/883519/FitGanon.pac
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/883519/Plusery_Beta4_2_8-8.txt
Changes:
Polished up the jab so it that it has a 3 frame hit-duration and looks less mechanical:
14230024 3F800000
141D0024 3F000000
14150024 40000000
14090024 41400000
14070024 3F800000
14000024 40600000
In .pac, lengthened hitframes to 3 from 2, moved IASA to 35 from 34, ultimately resulting in:
Hit (3-5), IASA 21, end 22.
------
In .pac, moved IASA frame for Bair to 28 from 35 to enable SH-B-DJ within 4 frame window (ala Melee)
In .pac, moved IASA frame for Uair to 27 from 33 to enable SH-U-DJ within 5 frame window (Melee +2)
------
In .pac, raised size of Grab Collision Box 1 to 8.8 from 4.8 to match the animation. This isn't as large as it sounds.
------
In .pac, moved IASA frame for U-tilt to 30 from 114. This is really experimental, I started out with 15, but it was spammable and looks funny (u-tilt 4x / second o_O). Frame 30 forces you to make a commitment to being vulnerable, and looks alright, yet opens some possibilities. I'd like to keep it rather situational, but less so than before.
------
In text modified gravity to 14687560 from 14568440, and in the .pac I set his Aerial mobility to 0.04 from 0.03. This speeds up his aerial game without sacrificing much if any recovery-power. It's subtle, but enjoyable.
Subsequently, this shortens his SH duration to 31 frames from 32, so I moved the AC frame on Dair to 30 from 31 so that thunderstorming's difficulty is unchanged.
------
I'll take a peek at those WP/Nair/U-tilt changes now, Cape. I can taste the Gold.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/883519/FitGanon.pac
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/883519/Plusery_Beta4_2_8-8.txt
Changes:
Polished up the jab so it that it has a 3 frame hit-duration and looks less mechanical:
14230024 3F800000
141D0024 3F000000
14150024 40000000
14090024 41400000
14070024 3F800000
14000024 40600000
In .pac, lengthened hitframes to 3 from 2, moved IASA to 35 from 34, ultimately resulting in:
Hit (3-5), IASA 21, end 22.
------
In .pac, moved IASA frame for Bair to 28 from 35 to enable SH-B-DJ within 4 frame window (ala Melee)
In .pac, moved IASA frame for Uair to 27 from 33 to enable SH-U-DJ within 5 frame window (Melee +2)
------
In .pac, raised size of Grab Collision Box 1 to 8.8 from 4.8 to match the animation. This isn't as large as it sounds.
------
In .pac, moved IASA frame for U-tilt to 30 from 114. This is really experimental, I started out with 15, but it was spammable and looks funny (u-tilt 4x / second o_O). Frame 30 forces you to make a commitment to being vulnerable, and looks alright, yet opens some possibilities. I'd like to keep it rather situational, but less so than before.
------
In text modified gravity to 14687560 from 14568440, and in the .pac I set his Aerial mobility to 0.04 from 0.03. This speeds up his aerial game without sacrificing much if any recovery-power. It's subtle, but enjoyable.
Subsequently, this shortens his SH duration to 31 frames from 32, so I moved the AC frame on Dair to 30 from 31 so that thunderstorming's difficulty is unchanged.
------
I'll take a peek at those WP/Nair/U-tilt changes now, Cape. I can taste the Gold.
The Cape
Smash Master
Another nair idea. Its the last part of U taunt where he thrusts his body open from the cannonball. Frame speed and pac:
Ganon nair:
.Pac: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c8d125abced84dd0d1014a7a667fa2b4cdade9bade5abcd7c95965eaa7bc68bc
Frame Speed:
140B8062 3F800000
14078062 40000000
14008062 41000000
Ganon nair:
.Pac: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c8d125abced84dd0d1014a7a667fa2b4cdade9bade5abcd7c95965eaa7bc68bc
Frame Speed:
140B8062 3F800000
14078062 40000000
14008062 41000000
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
I re-worked the Fair animation to stop it from transporting around (look at the old version in PSA, it jumps around erratically) and extended the arm properly during the swing. I also limited the rotation of his whole body during frames 17-19, which previously moved the fist more out of the central axis and off to a side. Overall this means a more consistent move.
This means that the animation modifier in the .gct is no longer necessary. The last hurdle is figuring out how to make the landing occur later (i.e. when his feet are further into the ground), as this cuts off the most important part of the move when SHFFLing, sadly.
Here's the file for those that want to test:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/883519/FitGanonMotionEtc.pac
This .gct is taken from a m2.0 set, so grab a Brawl+ gct and remove the fair change if you like (1400063 XXXXXX, two lines): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/883519/RSBE01.gct
As for jab, it does have dramatically more range than melee due to the way he leans into the attack. In fact, it outranged the f-tilt (!) before I moved the tip hitbox in by a unit, and it still might be about even.
This creates an internal imbalance between his moves, with the jab overshadowing the f-tilt in the vast majority of situations. What I'd like to propose is that I rework the jab animation from scratch via BrawlBox to more mirror the old Melee jab, including the old timings. This is roughly a 30-40% range nerf.
Then, I'd like to propose making the F-tilt slightly safer -- he just holds his hurtbox (leg) out for ~12 (!) frames after the hitbox ends. I'd like to shave that number down by 6 frames or so. His d-tilt is also a mediocre poke, staying extending for ~15 frames after the hitbox ends. This might warrant similar treatment to the f-tilt.
This would better define the roles of the jab as a closer range GTFO (as it should be) and the f-tilt (& d-tilt?) as a longer range kill move / occasional poke. I haven't begun coding any of this and I'd like to hear ideas before I start.
edit: I also plan on adjusting the angle on his waist and bust bones for his run to be slightly more menacing and slightly less "I have a baby up my ***."
This means that the animation modifier in the .gct is no longer necessary. The last hurdle is figuring out how to make the landing occur later (i.e. when his feet are further into the ground), as this cuts off the most important part of the move when SHFFLing, sadly.
Here's the file for those that want to test:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/883519/FitGanonMotionEtc.pac
This .gct is taken from a m2.0 set, so grab a Brawl+ gct and remove the fair change if you like (1400063 XXXXXX, two lines): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/883519/RSBE01.gct
--------------------------------------
As for jab, it does have dramatically more range than melee due to the way he leans into the attack. In fact, it outranged the f-tilt (!) before I moved the tip hitbox in by a unit, and it still might be about even.
This creates an internal imbalance between his moves, with the jab overshadowing the f-tilt in the vast majority of situations. What I'd like to propose is that I rework the jab animation from scratch via BrawlBox to more mirror the old Melee jab, including the old timings. This is roughly a 30-40% range nerf.
Then, I'd like to propose making the F-tilt slightly safer -- he just holds his hurtbox (leg) out for ~12 (!) frames after the hitbox ends. I'd like to shave that number down by 6 frames or so. His d-tilt is also a mediocre poke, staying extending for ~15 frames after the hitbox ends. This might warrant similar treatment to the f-tilt.
This would better define the roles of the jab as a closer range GTFO (as it should be) and the f-tilt (& d-tilt?) as a longer range kill move / occasional poke. I haven't begun coding any of this and I'd like to hear ideas before I start.
edit: I also plan on adjusting the angle on his waist and bust bones for his run to be slightly more menacing and slightly less "I have a baby up my ***."
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I'm all down for cosmetic changing of the Ganon-man. Especially anything to make his run less ridiculous. If I'm reading it right all the F-air change will do is make the move look smoother, but the data will remain the same. If so that's good.
Jab outranges F-tilt? That's hysterical. F-tilt had uses when Side-b was untechable but without the move certainly isn't all that helpful. Sure it KO's well and sends at a silly good angle, it's just really slow and way easy to punish. Either way, I think Ganondorf is a fine character, he really doesn't need changes but I wouldn't argue with a change that made jab less, you know, all encompassing.
But I'll bite and give my two cents. I like the idea for jab and f-tilt. Nerf some of F-tilt's power and make the jab less of a 'best option when I'm on the ground' move. For D-tilt I think it would be cool if you gave the move IASA with jump but only when the move connects. If you do land a d-tilt it's basically a guaranteed Up-air/F-air so I really don't think it needs much of anything, even if it is a little slow on the recoil.
Jab outranges F-tilt? That's hysterical. F-tilt had uses when Side-b was untechable but without the move certainly isn't all that helpful. Sure it KO's well and sends at a silly good angle, it's just really slow and way easy to punish. Either way, I think Ganondorf is a fine character, he really doesn't need changes but I wouldn't argue with a change that made jab less, you know, all encompassing.
But I'll bite and give my two cents. I like the idea for jab and f-tilt. Nerf some of F-tilt's power and make the jab less of a 'best option when I'm on the ground' move. For D-tilt I think it would be cool if you gave the move IASA with jump but only when the move connects. If you do land a d-tilt it's basically a guaranteed Up-air/F-air so I really don't think it needs much of anything, even if it is a little slow on the recoil.