• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Ganondorf: Official Character Discussion

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsGm3XsBFmI

Sword Ganon. I'll test the code here sooner or later and give my thoughts, but in my eyes if and and when we go about buffing Ganondorf we should take this route and make it work. Make it activated by the taunt (and maybe include holding shield so those that just like the down taunt can keep it). It could take some work, but it would be a really big WOW code for Brawl+.
 

Yeroc

Theory Coder
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 28, 2004
Messages
3,273
Location
In a world of my own devising
Right now it permanently changes the usual item moves to the sword counterparts, even without the sword in hand. But the hitboxes are still there, which is kinda goofy.

I agree that something like this needs to be switchable, and I'd be in favor of just being swappable with the taunt, because simpler is better. Not too much move tweaking will be necessary I think, he gets a pretty good new jab, a crappy ftilt, a so-so fsmash and a decent dash attack. Just minor changes, and an awesome effect on the visuals of the game.

Edit: We should just make his taunts faster if we do it this way, that way people can still use the dtaunt if the want to without risking getting stuck with the wrong moveset.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Right now it permanently changes the usual item moves to the sword counterparts, even without the sword in hand. But the hitboxes are still there, which is kinda goofy.

I agree that something like this needs to be switchable, and I'd be in favor of just being swappable with the taunt, because simpler is better. Not too much move tweaking will be necessary I think, he gets a pretty good new jab, a crappy ftilt, a so-so fsmash and a decent dash attack. Just minor changes, and an awesome effect on the visuals of the game.

Edit: We should just make his taunts faster if we do it this way, that way people can still use the dtaunt if the want to without risking getting stuck with the wrong moveset.
I disagree. After messing around with this for a while I realize that Ganondorf loses more then he gains. The jab is slow and has no stun or knockback. His tilt is quick but the knockback is garbage. He also loses his dash attack, which is actually a pretty reliable killer. I'd argue the F-smash is the only thing he gains from this set. Here are my ideas if we want to go about this as the way to buff Ganondorf.

1. Swap his sword moveset with someone else. The Star Fox characters all have good sword movements. Snake is a similiar height and body style, the sword usage is just 'sloppy' so to say.

2. We need to rework all the angles, knockback, etc. on the sword moves.

Truthfully, if we can fix the teching Side-B and give Ganon this sword moveset he would be good. We have nothing to lose from going through with this.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
Alright, time to list out buff ideas that we've mentioned but haven't implemented yet.

First, the changes that have been made:
- Increased jab speed
- Fair has maximum extension for three additional frames
- Fair has 40% ALR
- Fixed upB
- Murder choke sped up to 1.25x after grab

Now, for the changes people have mentioned in this thread but have not been implemented (all of them):
- Higher fair kb
- Reduce ALR of all moves (not just fair), mainly for better comboing with nair
- More kb on grounded wizkick
- Grounded wizkick reflects projectiles
- Reduced landlag on aerial wizkick
- Increase wizkick speed (was suggested for both air and ground)
- Get second jump back after aerial wizkick
- Super armour on sideB
- Speed up rolls
- Change the utilt in some way
- FIX MURDER CHOKE'S TECHABILITY
- If not possible, speed up the whole MC
- Higher momentum
- Sword ganon

Now, to go over these.

To elaborate on the fair buff, I think that a very slight increase in its scaling could be nice. Unnecessary. But nice. Currently, he can pull off fair -> dtilt at low percents on some characters (DI pending), which is something I'd like to see preserved.

The ALR reduction is something that I support in full. His nair is obviously meant to be a combo move, and although it sorta works, it could work better if it had less lag, allowing easier transition into the next move. Also, his other three aerials all finish before landing, so reducing the lag on them would be a very minor bonus.

More KB on the grounded wizkick would help him out quite a bit, I think. The move hit like a truck in melee. In brawl, it's just a gentle shove. It would help get the foe off the level and help set up ganon's **** edgeguards. I came up with this idea when we were talking about the idea of a reflecting wizkick, but the more I think about it, the more this sounds like a really good idea.

The grounded wizkick reflecting projectiles, however, I do not go for. Read my previous posts for my reasoning.

Now, the reduced landing lag on aerial wizkick is one I've been talking about for a while, now. I think it would greatly help in a variety of situations. First off, it would increase the effectiveness of his OOS game by enabling him to perform a murder quake which he can actually combo off of. It would also enable him to more safely use the aerial wizkick while above the stage.

With the buffs I have lined up right now for both the grounded and aerial wizkicks, it would make speeding them up very much unnecessary. In fact, the grounded version could be borderline broken if it was given better kb and sped up. Reduced landing lag on the aerial version would make having a faster one less important, although making it faster would also help with recovery. I've already been using it mix up my recovery when coming in from up high as it is, to varying degrees of effectiveness. It might be nice, but it wouldn't be necessary. It would make the wizkick useful for recovery lower, though.

Tying into my last comment, I also think that getting your second jump back from downB is unnecessary, although nice. Choosing which aerial wizkick buffs to implement will be important, as currently, there are three different ones being suggested. lol It's amazing how many different wizkick suggestions are being made.

I've stated this before, but I really wanna try to avoid putting SA frames on new moves in brawl+, and that includes the MC.

Speeding up his rolls would help him deal with projectiles better, but it should not be too fast. Right now they're pretty slow, but ganon isn't really meant to be a character that has a good roll.

Although giving the utilt a makeover could be really cool, I think that it's unnecessary, and could potentially result in being broken due to its amazing hitbox, especially when we have so many other options for buffing ganon.

The current state of the murder choke is one that really saddens me. Being techable has never been worse for the move. If it cannot be fixed, however, I do have an idea which could help mitigate the problem, and still make the move a force to be feared.

If we keep the MC techable, I'd like to see the entire animation sped up, not just after the grab. This way, the move actually becomes viable as an approach, and he has valid techchasing afterward, possibly even into another MC (as long as this couldn't be done on reaction).

Now, momentum. I think that the higher momentum gave quite a benefit to ganon, something that I believe has contributed to him feeling lacking after updating the codes. I think we should look into increasing his momentum as a specific character buff even if we do not look at raising it for all characters.

And... sword ganon. Ok? This would be very cool, indeed (it's almost like a first step to the adding characters thing lol). However, I don't think it should be a primary factor in balancing him. It shouldn't be clearly superior to his normal moveset. Right now, I feel like the sword set is obsolete in comparison to his regular moveset, which is kinda how it should be. The sword set could use some modifications to give people reason to use it over a coolness factor, but... just whatever you do, do not break his sword fsmash, which has a huge hitbox. We're supposed to fix the moves characters already have to balance them. Not change them into completely different ones.

Oh, and to clarify in case I was misleading... I don't actually expect all of these changes to make it in. Only some of them. This is just what I thought about each individual change.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
A very well thought out and written post Leaf, as always. I still want to put my eggs into the Sword Ganon basket, and I think it's something we should seriously discuss, but even if it doesn't happen we can still make the King of Evil something to be reckoned with. Above all else the Murder Choke can't be techable or needs those guaranteed follow-ups though.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
Although fixing the murder choke's techability is the ideal solution, if it isn't possible, we may have to go with my solution of speeding up the move. It would still be beastly, but in a very different way.

I really think that sword ganon shouldn't even be touched as a balancing point. It's an extra. Something that only exists to be cool, really. If we implement it, it should have some functionality, but the base ganon set should be what he is balanced around, and should be where his strengths truly come out. The most important thing to do with this is to not make the fsmash kill (or any of his sword moves, for that matter). It has much bigger range than it looks like (because the beam sword is ******** in brawl), and could easily become OP. Also, if it is implemented, it would obviously need to be able to switch between the sets, but should be done by holding shield as you exit the taunt, so that people who just plain like the taunt can still use it.

I may actually end up arguing that the sword ganon set should not be included at all. Right now, I still think it can be included and comfortably made inferior to the standard ganon set while still offering enough reason to use it besides just being a gimmick, but if it turns out that making the sword set plausible to use makes the standard set obsolete, you can bet that I will be the first person to argue that it should not be included (or at least in that state, until it no longer obsoletes the standard set).

Anyway, I'd like to try out some of the buffs I talked about in my last post and see how he plays after that.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
The thing about sword Ganon though leaf, is that he loses his powerful moves in exchange for range (although the range would have to be modified, make it so the sword doesn't have that invisible stretch out range it has). And, the beam sword took a really long time to kill in vBrawl, I'm not sure how long it takes now in Brawl+. I was thinking that the jab sword would act a little stronger so it'd be like his normal jab (but not as powerful KB wise), his tilt would be the KO sword move (not until 140% though), and his Fsmash would be used as a finishing move to a combo but, not necessarily kill until 150%.

We would have to force Ganondorf to switch to his normal move set to KO, even though he could KO just fine with thunderstorming, Fairing, or Usmashing, switching back to his normal move set would guarantee a KO move. Furthermore, he would have to taunt to deactivate the sword, thus he would have to make time to do that and would have to shove the opponent offstage and then taunt.

In any case, I'd like to see it included if it can be tweaked a ****ton but not have any affect on Ganon's normal moves.
 

spunit262

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
421
About the murder choke techabilty. We should go with the one line teching code and then add some start up on the AD of anyone who's AD starts before 15 (or what ever number we use).
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Ok this thread seems to have run it's course. It seems most of us agree Ganon doesn't need that much help, but he does need a few tweaks to bring himself up to par. These are the major suggestions I'm seeing in this thread:

1. Do things to the aerial and grounded Wizard Kick. More knockback, faster start and winddown, always spikes, Super Armor, etc.

2. Give Ganondorf a form of armor. Be it like the 'Bowser Don't Care' code or some forms of heavy armor.

3. Fix teching on the Murder Choke. Possibly speed it up too.

There were plenty of other good suggestions, but these seemed to be brought up the most. We can probably close this topic soon and do our next character tomorrow.

From the public thread.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
A lot of people also seemed in favour of fixing up the utilt.

I'm gonna link to a few of the posts that really go over ganon's stuff, as well, which is something I think we should do from now on with these threads, instead of just getting general opinion. Just because one idea may be popular, does not mean that it was considered in depth by a person who plays the character (however, if it was, then it may have some actual backing to it). Most of these posts are going to mostly by me, flying dutchman, or shell, although there's one of giza in there, too.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7091331&postcount=9
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7091346&postcount=10
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7091635&postcount=15
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7091739&postcount=18
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7093964&postcount=38
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7095271&postcount=40
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7096876&postcount=57
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7099880&postcount=94

I pretty much agree entirely with shell (the last post I listed). The only thing I would do differently is apply the ALR with the rest of the changes.
 

Foxy

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
3,900
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
I agree with Warlock Kick needing to always spike in the air. I used it the other day off stage for a spike and I ended up getting a star-KO, which was just silly.

No reason not to change it.
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
I agree with Warlock Kick needing to always spike in the air. I used it the other day off stage for a spike and I ended up getting a star-KO, which was just silly.

No reason not to change it.
Am I the only one who likes that it sends upward? Seriously, its trajectory is the last thing I would change about the downB right now.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Am I the only one who likes that it sends upward? Seriously, its trajectory is the last thing I would change about the downB right now.
Agreed. I won't argue with the changes if it's put in, it just makes it situational in a new way. What I will argue is if people say a down-b that sends people down is the fix he needs. It really won't help or hurt him.

EDIT: Always sending down would probably hurt Murder Quake combos which is something we want to add.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
vex says that ganon needs a bigger grab box if its possible, stating that his is terrible as of now.

do we have a code that can do that?
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Code:
Ganondorf/C.Falcon U/D-b Fixes: (Phantom wings)
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
30000000 00000009
66000001 00000000
30000001 00000014
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
90010002 00000000
48001002 0000007C
30000038 00000114
48001002 00000018
92210003 00000040
48001002 00000088
58010000 0000002C
94210003 0000004C
48001002 0000007C
30000039 00000115
48001002 00000070
58010000 00000020
58010000 0000000C
14000004 00000001
E2000001 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

-Fixes Up-B so that it maintains momentum regardless of direction.
-Fixes Down-B so that it returns the second jump after use.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I'd love that, it'd let you know you got the sweetspot, it's so hard to tell since it doesn't have a different SFX. :(
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
I would like to add one last thing to ganon then I would say he is a solid character. Fix the second hit of his dsmash so it sends towards him and up.

And can we make the second half of the down b meteor and the first half spike? The second half is easier to hit with

We also need to speed up the air choke animation since that is techable as well
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
is there a way we can make aerial overB not have as much as momentum? the skyride combo is a lil too ridiculous lol. some momentum is cool, but with the amount of momentum it has now, you can be pretty far from the ledge and take a skyride. a lot of ppl who have seen my video think it should be toned down quite a bit.
dont get rid of all aerial momentum, make it like half of what it is now
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
"Skyride combo" looks ridiculous if you are watching someone who doesn't properly DI and/or hitstun being too high.

I would like to add this to ganon to compensate for the murder choke. Teching away is fixed with the faster and stronger wizkick and this will hit the person on the back

Dsmash fix


Hitbox data
14056400
* 0008C02F 057D0000
* 009D0000 83A00000
* 14056400 0008D02F
* 057D0000 009E0000
* 83A00000 14056400
* 0003202F 057D0000
* 009E0000 83A00000
* 140E4B3C 0008202F
* 0E4B3C00 00460000
* 83A00000 140C4B3C
* 0008202F 0E4B3C00
* 00460000 83A00000

Frame speed data
1424002F 3FBCA1AF
* 1423002F 3F800000
* 1410002F 40071C72
* 140F002F 3F800000
* 1400002F 3F6EEEEF
* 1600002F 3F59999A

Credit for frame speed goes to alopex for helping
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I'm gonna bump this bad boy up so here goes...

Quoting Leaf here:
Which brings me to my second point: although a character may play "fine" without changes, if the character can be edited to be deeper and more enjoyable for those who main the character while still retaining balance, it should not be rejected. For example, falco's shine buff: Falco mains were willing to trade a nerf to his laser for this buff, in order to retain balance, and were in fact very enthusiastic about it. The shine change adds so much more depth to falco's game, making him a more interesting and fun character. Subjective? Of course. But seeing as the falco mains obviously agree with that statement, it can't really be argued. If the shine change broke falco, then we would not be able to implement it (or at least in its current form). You may not like seeing the way a character's moves work being completely altered, but unless it threatens game balance or if you main said character, you really shouldn't be complaining. I reiterate, falco's lasers were nerfed to facilitate the shine buff. We all have characters we hate to fight, but we shouldn't let that get in the way of making this game deeper or to cloud our judgments of balance.
2 words

Sword Ganon

Let's fix it up. Maybe we can use CAM to do it or maybe we can leave Ganon as our last character to tweak in Brawl+ but I strongly believe we can make this work for Brawl+ and make Ganondorf's sword moveset something great. It doesn't need that many fine tweaks, but 1 or 2 for the moveset would be nice. Then speed up Ganon's taunts so he can switch between the movesets in a quick fashion?

So basically I'd like to see SHeLL's B-air buff (slight increase in size) and Sword Ganon and we could give a character THE BIGGEST AND COOLEST buff and tweak in Brawl+.

Thoughts?

I already gave mine and I really don't think anyone thinks Ganondorf is TOO good right now. And I don't think the ability to switch between the sword and regular Ganon moveset would be too good. Going sword Ganon would give him range and a little speed on his attacks but trade kill power.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I SO want Sword Ganon, I don't care if I don't play as him, just adding him as an optional character to use like Sheik is to Zelda or ZSS is to Samus but, midmatch would be so coooolllll.... All that needs to be done to it to fix it and make Ganon viable with the sword are:

1. The range of the sword (since now we can edit hitboxes! ^_^)
2. The glitches
3. Not being able to switch back to regular Ganon by pressing the Down Taunt
4. How much damage the sword swings do and making his Dash Attack + sword better.

Sounds like soooooooooooo much fun.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Well, as Leaf pointed out, the code needs a lot of work. The ability to have the beam sword in hand but not the actual Sage Sword gives him huge invisible hitboxes. Also how we can't switch in combat yet... Either way, I should ask PK if it's even possible for CAM to do something like this, otherwise someone has to fix up the code and PW is on hiatus...
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I can write seperate codes for this if we need it, sword ganon would be so cool to have.

on a short edit note, I need to find out how to deactivate this thing when you up/side taunt.
the invisi hitbox thing can be done with size, translation mods.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I can write seperate codes for this if we need it, sword ganon would be so cool to have.

on a short edit note, I need to find out how to deactivate this thing when you up/side taunt.
the invisi hitbox thing can be done with size, translation mods.
It's up the the BR and other Ganon mains I guess. I mean it would be a sweet code to have just in general, but I'm unsure if others want it in B+. Id hold off on adjusting the sword Ganon code.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I'm adding the positives, negatives, and general facts of sword Ganon.

Ganon's jab, f-tilt, f-smash, and dash are all changed by having a beam sword.

JAB
+ Range
-KB
-Speed

F-tilt
+Range
+Speed
-Power

F-smash
+Range
+Speed
-Power

Dash attack
-Combos off of and into it
-KB
-Size of the hitbox and it's priority.

The jab is his signature, get off me move and his dash attack is one of his best moves and the best dash attacks in the game. F-smash is nice to have since F-smash isn't too useful on regular Ganon. F-tilt would be nice for keeping people away and he could, in theory, keep people away from him with well placed F-tilts.

It's a tough line really. 4 attack changes can really alter the characters. Some will prefer the sword, some the fists. I think he'll use the sword against other sword users and some of the slower cast members. But he'll have to use his fists against fast characters like Fox and Falcon since dash attack and jab are too clutch to lose, even with Quake OoS.

Either way, I'm done with this discussion. The code needs fixed and PK needs to be working on far more important things at this time. We can dig it up later. For now, here are SHeLL's f-air and b-air size increase, darkness on sweetspot f-air, and a KB buff on the shadow shoryuken.

Code:
Uppercut
14075A46 13046114
075A6713 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000


Fair 1
140F501E 00169033
0F501E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000


Fair 2 (Daaahkness)
14115330 00169033
11533013 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000


Bair 1
1410551C 00169033
105D1C00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000


Bair 2
1410550A 00169033
105D0A00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
K, a few things.

First, this has no reliable setup, which is a good thing. This would be useful for nothing more then a mixup, being badass, and the ability to have a highly mobile, albeit still predictable kill move.

Second, the damage may still be to high on the grounded one. Testing on a standing computer might not be the best judge though.

Third, and this is the big one, the aerial hitbox was unedited. It's still the hugely powerful 36 damage fist of ****. It's lulz worthy, but the aerial punch has a different hitbox then the grounded one. You gotta address that.

Fourth, the sound syncs up pretty well I was suprised.

Fifth, Reverse Warlock Punch is still the same speed and power. That's good cause it saves homerun contests.

Overall, I'm not totally in love with the change. It's cool and I enjoy messing around with it. It needs tweaks to be balanced, but it's still pretty awesome. Ganon has gotten a lot of attention recently, so the QQ will be epic if we ever release this. Especially since a lot of our guys think he is ok. But w/e. It deepens his meta game without breaking him. Fix the damage and aerial hitbox and I say give it a shot. That's what Nightlies are for.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
If you wanted to give ganon another buff, you could reinstate the dsmash. Remember that one? Just saying...
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
If you wanted to give ganon another buff, you could reinstate the dsmash. Remember that one? Just saying...
I will admit... melee ganon's dsmash was pretty sexy, although I don't think I ever actually tried out your change. I remember you used a lot of frame speed mods, though, so we wouldn't be able to incorporate it for a while if we wanted to.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
I feel this punch speed up is a change just because we can and kind of instills no new "value added" to ganon gameplay.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I feel this punch speed up is a change just because we can and kind of instills no new "value added" to ganon gameplay.
Agreed. It's just a cool, mobile killer. I'd love to take the change, but I just don't think it's the type of change we should be adding. Unlike Lucario's up-b or something, this doesn't really offer any depth. Still, let the community decide?
 
Top Bottom