Ganondorf: Official Character Discussion

[KishSquared]

Discussion for wielder of the Triforce of Power. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. No changes will be made without three votes.

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:

Default Physics:
SH: 1.025
FH: 1.050
FF: 1.1
DGrav: 1.0
Grav: 1.0

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:
Fair: more KB (The Cape, Kaotical)
Side-B: Faster @ 1.2x (The Cape, LG386, Osi, Kaotical)
Utilt: Faster (The Cape)
Up-B: more KB (LG386)
Jab: Faster (LG386, Osi, Kupo)
Jab: More KB (LG386, Kupo)

Anything else:
Recover jump after up-B (Osi)

 

[The Cape]

Choke to jab combos need to come back.
More knockback on both fair hitboxes.
What about speeding up U tilt? the hitbox wont come out, but we can make it about 5 times faster, so he can use it for the vaccum stuff but not for the attack.

 

[leafgreen386]

Ganon's murder choke (sideB) got nerfed just by the inclusion of buffering making the near if not frame perfect timing required for hitting after it very difficult to hit. Apparently, higher grav values also nerf this. The easy solution to this is to remove some of the lag after he lets a player go, making followups practical again.

I could get behind a stronger fair... it gets the job done when done off the stage, but it doesn't kill from the middle of the stage for a long time... and this is supposed to be a power character, here, meaning his fair should resemble an l-cancelable smash. That said, it's not necessary at all, and if I had to choose, I'd rather have other buffs over this one.

Now for my suggestions.

The last hit of his upB grab needs to deal more knockback. Currently it has very low hitstun even with the hitstun code, allowing people to hit you out of it just like in vB. Increasing its knockback will do two things: 1) send them further away from you so it's harder for them to punish you for landing the hit, and 2) increase the hitstun of the move which also makes it harder for them to punish you for landing the hit. Basically, this move should be safe if you land it.

Sped up jab for both the animation and the hitbox. The current framespeed code will only alter the animation speed - it won't cause the hitbox to come out any sooner. Having an 8 frame jab on a slow character with no other good keep away moves is really just inexcusable, and makes the character way too vulnerable to just being combo bait.

I also wouldn't mind a little more base knockback on the jab... I liked it when it hit opponents down on the higher hitstun values - it gave him a good way to turn from defense to offense. I'd actually rather see this than a stronger fair.

So in summary:

- Less lag after murder choke (this is already doable)
- more knockback on upB
- Faster jab (both animation speed and hitbox speed)
- more jab base knockback
- maybe more fair knockback

 

[Osi]

I would agree with a small cut down on the lag for the side B end animation... maybe just something like 2 frames would be enough to give him a advantage after performing a successful one.

If the hitbox matched the animation speed of the jab we have now it would be just great!

I would be fine with the fair having the ability to KO 10 or 20% earlier, but also he has a lot of KO potential as he is now. I'd like to focus on adding some speed to him. The momentum code may handle this though. The current one makes his air game cover much more ground, so if that stays true at 80% then it's no issue.

I would love to see him get a jump back after down B. I feel it was a useful tool to ganon/falcon in melee that added variety to their easily punished recovery. He is a large sandbag to combo right now, so will be off stage easily. I feel he can use the variety in recovery.


Hella out there idea hehe:
I'd actually like to be able to shield cancel the up tilt if we can do that. I think it would be a nice addition for mind games, and when you accidentally do it rather than an up smash you wont be punished for it as easily.

 

[kupo15]

So in summary:

- Less lag after murder choke (this is already doable)
- more knockback on upB
- Faster jab (both animation speed and hitbox speed)
- more jab base knockback
- maybe more fair knockback

You do realize that hitstun doesn't affect the up b right?

The flame choke is already fixed in the set I posted in the "beta 2" thread. It was the ganon side b fix. Giza already did it

I agree with faster jab

I agree with more jab kb

I think thats all he really needs

 

[KishSquared]

What about global offensive/defensive buffs? Does he need to live longer, or does he need to do more damage?

Personally, I think he's probably fine as is, but I'm curious about what others might think.

 

[The Cape]

Ganon actually tanks pretty hard. Maybe we can buff fair to do more damage instead of knockback? The move looks like it hits like a tank, but it really only is a sneeze.

Also Squared, if we as a backroom decide on a character (like we agree on the changes) should we move on to another char to keep this rolling?

 

[kupo15]

Yea ganon's survivability is fine. I'm not sure if buffing the fair is necessary with the combos he can do and the uair edge guarding. He has plenty of killing moves that can be comboed into

 

[KishSquared]

I'm fine with that Cape, but what constitutes agreement? So far you, shanus, Kupo, Osi, and LG386 are the only ones posting. I'd like to see a bit more participation from everyone to say that we all agree. Granted, if people aren't posting in here, it might also mean that they don't play the character or don't care about them.

I also don't want to give it 24 hours, I think at least 3-4 days should be given to each character.

No one has commented on SH/FH/FF/etc... yet. Are they good as is?

 

[kupo15]

I think we should not include the SH FH FFect values because that is kinda a different topic. I think this should be about fixing the moves themselves. I think we need to get the moves fixed first before deciding the weight, sh ect

 

[KishSquared]

These threads are going to contain every change made for each character. A lot of characters have had values assigned to them with little playtesting, which is only natural when you have nearly 40 characters to discuss in a single thread. This is our chance to tweak these values, or even to affirm that the values we have are best. This is a chance to turn the balancing and value-generation into a democratic vote.

That said, the values we currently have will be used by default if no one opposes them, which is totally fine.

 

[kupo15]

More kb on the up b is not needed at all. Leaf thought that is why you can air dodge so soon but the fact is, the hitstun code does not apply to that move. So we shouldn't have that on the list. I don't think fair should have more kb either. His uair is beastly for kb you can just use that instead of the fair. I don't see why its necessary to buff the fair.

 

[KishSquared]

None of these changes will be made without 3 votes anyway. Right now it doesn't look like those tweaks will get to that mark.

 

[kupo15]

you can remove the side b speed one since it is already done.

 

[shanus]

The side B speed seems a little steep now. Being able to boot out of a side B is a guaranteed kill for a lot of chars lol..

 

[KishSquared]

You get a free ftilt? That should be DI'able until pretty high %s.

Just out of curiosity, why do people think he should get a free hit on that? It's a hit-on-block, and even without a free hit you can roll chase. People were raising questions about Bowser getting a free hit after his over-B, and this is even worse than that.

Also, the change needs to stay listed otherwise it'll be removed from the codeset, lol.

 

[leafgreen386]

You get a free ftilt? That should be DI'able until pretty high %s.

Just out of curiosity, why do people think he should get a free hit on that? It's a hit-on-block, and even without a free hit you can roll chase. People were raising questions about Bowser getting a free hit after his over-B, and this is even worse than that.

Also, the change needs to stay listed otherwise it'll be removed from the codeset, lol.

Why do people think ganon should get a free hit on his sideB? Possibly... because of this:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9382/guaranteedfussk1.png (not gonna img tag this because it's huge)

See all that green and blue on there? Taken from the ganon boards, it shows all the situations in which you are guaranteed another hit off of the move if you buffer your action. The move hits before they gain their invincibility (the exception would be the "attack" situation, where you can also hit after their invincibility ends, although you would have to predict the getup attack, of course). As you can see, there are quite a few characters where regardless of the action they perform, they can still be hit by either a jab or dtilt. Although the move is traditionally thought of as a techchase move, against quite a large size of the cast, it could be used as a combo move.

However, in brawl+, a lot of these get removed, or at the least, made (near) frame perfect, essentially making it pointless to even try them at all. Ganon's sideB is the sole reason he is not the worst character in the game in reg brawl; it is probably the single most essential element to his game, and what he could do from it should be preserved. The speedup on the move is only applied when he grabs someone with it. If he misses, he has just as much lag as always, and it's not exactly difficult to spotdodge (and therefore punish).

Also, bowser's sideB is a lot harder to punish. A whiffed murder choke is almost always a guaranteed grab, which in brawl+ means big damage. It's a high-risk high-reward move.

 

[kupo15]

we should definitely keep that tech around. Many ganon's wont like all the work put into that going to waste and as leaf said, it would really hurt ganon.

 

[KishSquared]

Ganon's sideB is the sole reason he is not the worst character in the game in reg brawl; it is probably the single most essential element to his game, and what he could do from it should be preserved.

That's fine, but this chart represents the fact that it DOESN'T always combo. and that you need to predict/mindgame people into things. Giving him a guaranteed hit completely eliminates this chart and just says "Go ahead and ftilt, you win".

I'm a bit scared of some of the repercussions of this too. At the very least, it will need a lot of fine tuning to ensure that he can't get a guaranteed smash off on any of the characters.

My vote is to make the hit techable. Is that possible? Give him a guaranteed hit if the opponent doesn't tech it, and allow him to tech chase otherwise. Seems like the best option to me.

 

[shanus]

That's fine, but this chart represents the fact that it DOESN'T always combo. and that you need to predict/mindgame people into things. Giving him a guaranteed hit completely eliminates this chart and just says "Go ahead and ftilt, you win".

I'm a bit scared of some of the repercussions of this too. At the very least, it will need a lot of fine tuning to ensure that he can't get a guaranteed smash off on any of the characters.

My vote is to make the hit techable. Is that possible? Give him a guaranteed hit if the opponent doesn't tech it, and allow him to tech chase otherwise. Seems like the best option to me.

The ftilt hit actually doesn't always connect now that i lowered the speed from 1.3x to 1.2x. At 1.3, it was guaranteed, and now it requires a bit better timing, etc. Feels very nice at 1.2

 

[The Cape]

Did we fix Samus bombs?

Oops, wrong thread.

As for Ganon, that murder choke speed seems appropriate.

 

[shanus]

Did we fix Samus bombs?

Oops, wrong thread.

As for Ganon, that murder choke speed seems appropriate.

Removed the samus bomb fix, it didnt really seem all that necessary. Missiles are still epic though

 

[KishSquared]

The other thing that people want is a faster jab. Has that been increased? Or can that not be sped up because of the hitbox?

 

[shanus]

The other thing that people want is a faster jab. Has that been increased? Or can that not be sped up because of the hitbox?

its been done for a while

 

[Kaotical]

Sped up side-B would help him a good deal I believe, and I like the idea of trying and making the hit techable. If it's possible, that should go in.

I'm with Cape when he says "more KB for f-air". That move should be feared. U-air good for edge-guarding and anti-air, b-air good for spacing, d-air good for tech ****, f-air good for power. That's how I've always viewed him. Right now, f-air is kinda lacking IMO. Plus the range on it got nerfed from Melee to Brawl, so make it slightly more rewarding to hit with it. Keep in mind also that all the characters may be faster, but Ganon is not as fast as most. Make f-air have more KB.

 

[kupo15]

but Uair has the power fair should have then. You want to have both uair and fair be devastating attacks? I think 1 is enough and he really doesn't need it. We should save the lines for moves more deserving atm.

 

[leafgreen386]

but Uair has the power fair should have then. You want to have both uair and fair be devastating attacks? I think 1 is enough and he really doesn't need it. We should save the lines for moves more deserving atm.

You can't approach with uair, though. Also, all buffs and nerfs atm should be considered as if we have infinite lines, as with the patch file we will soon have, they really won't be much of an issue anymore at all.

Note: I'm not saying he needs a better fair, but I figured I'd throw this out there.

My vote is to make the hit techable. Is that possible? Give him a guaranteed hit if the opponent doesn't tech it, and allow him to tech chase otherwise. Seems like the best option to me.

With a knockback code, this would be very easy. We would just tweak it so that it had higher knockback and thus would send into the tumble. However, I don't really like this... at all. It completely changes the move. So what if you had a guaranteed hit if they didn't tech it? Besides the fact you'd have to give ganon much reduced lag after releasing the foe so he could actually follow up on a foe teching away... you're relegating it to a techchase-only move, as opposed to a techchase and combo move. He had a guaranteed hit on half the cast in reg brawl, and against a lot of those that weren't guaranteed, he covered 3/4 of their options. I agree that he shouldn't just be given a free everything off of it against everyone (I highly doubt he can guaranteed fsmash anyone even with the speed increase, though - that move has way too much startup), but he should still have guaranteed setups, at least against the characters that he already had them on.

The other thing that people want is a faster jab. Has that been increased? Or can that not be sped up because of the hitbox?

The animation is sped up atm, but not the actual jab, so in its final (ideal) form, the move would have less startup and would have slightly more end lag than it does with the current code.

 

[leafgreen386]

I did not think I would come up with something else I wanted to see changed, but I'm sure this change could be employed on quite a few other character's specials with ridiculous landlag. One thing that I thoroughly hate about brawl is that you get punished for landing your moves. Well, it seems that there are still some moves in this game that have that problem, even after the inclusion of hitstun. Ganon is unlucky enough to have two such moves. The first of which is his upB, which I've already mentioned earlier in this thread. The second... is his aerial downB. I was playing tonight, and every time I hit with the landing hitbox of the move, I got hit back before I could shield. The knockback of the landing hitbox is too small to make the huge land lag you suffer reasonable. I think the landlag should be reduced to a more tolerable level. It should still be easy enough to punish if shielded or whiffed, but allow you to actually act by the time they're out of hitstun, instead of being punished for you know... hitting them.

That, and murder quake -> uair would be hot.

 

[Kaotical]

murder quake -> uair would be hot.

*dreams of being able to pull off that combo*

 

[The Cape]

So I was reading through this guy's post that was trashing the project and I actually found something interesting.

Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot should have projectile reflecting properties or make him immune to projectiles

That is what he had posted, that would help Ganon's approach game against spammy characters alot.

And Leaf's murder quake having less landing lag is a great idea too.

 

[Ulevo]

So I was reading through this guy's post that was trashing the project and I actually found something interesting.

Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot should have projectile reflecting properties or make him immune to projectiles

That is what he had posted, that would help Ganon's approach game against spammy characters alot.

And Leaf's murder quake having less landing lag is a great idea too.

Giving it Super Armor in this instance would be the way to fix the problem.

On another note, I say the biggest change for Ganondorf (obviously) is to fix the tech on his Murder Choke.

 

[The Cape]

Well yea, thats definetly neccesary.

I like the idea of giving it reflector more than super armor as super armor does two things:
1. Makes a safer approach
2. Makes the community want super armor on everything.

 

[Revven]

@Ulevo: The new one liner tech code fixes this issue but, it doesn't work on floors for some reason, spunit still has to fix the tech code but, he said Ganon's murder choke is untechable again (as in, it uses the same teching properties Brawl has but it is just easier to do).

 

[Ulevo]

Well yea, thats definetly neccesary.

I like the idea of giving it reflector more than super armor as super armor does two things:
1. Makes a safer approach
2. Makes the community want super armor on everything.

Let the community want SA on everything. And it would make approaches safer, something that isn't one of Ganondorfs strong points. But it has commitment on the move, so it can still be easily punished. I'm not suggesting SA on the whole move, only on the start up and where the hit box is present.

 

[The Cape]

I love the idea of having the reflector on the hitbox in the front. Magic wall of Ganon foot that deflects ****.

Either would work well and facilitate his approach game.

 

[leafgreen386]

If I was going to buff the grounded downB, it would be with more knockback, actually, so that when the opponent gets hit, they are off the level, instead of just getting pushed a little unless they're already all the way at like 100%. I think this would also compliment his playstyle more, since it would work more into his punishment game, and he would be able to combo into it, which would then lead into his fantastic edgeguarding.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of adding super armor frames to moves in general. However, a reflector as part of his downB almost seems broken. He'd be able to reverse a projectile being thrown at him to approach while under cover from the reflected projectile, basically guaranteeing the attack to connect, especially given that they could even still be in lag from firing the projectile when it comes back at them. I don't think this is necessary for ganon, and it just feels... wrong, to be turning projectile matchups from his worst to some of his best by completely neutralizing the projectiles.

If you really want to buff his approach game, it would be better done by reducing his landing lag, making the fair and the nair safe on block. I think that right now the fair is punishable if it hits a shield (even if spaced properly). Momentum has already done a lot for his approach game, though, and I would actually prefer to see a global reduction in ALR over a specific buff to ganon, as I think it's too high in general. Try almost any uair in the game to see what I mean, even on characters that typically are known for having relatively low lag.

 

[goodoldganon]

Faster rolls and a better Wizard's Foot would help Ganon. Currently, even with the jab fixes, Ganon has a lot of problem dealing with pressure to the point where it can become next to impossible to get breathing room. Projectiles are an inherent weakness to size and weight so that should stay and his recovery will still be mediocre.

I'm borrowing my roommates computer atm and he's bothering me to get off but if need be I'll post a writeup on how we could buff Ganon out of the mid tier bracket.

 

[goodoldganon]

Sorry for the double post but I got an idea, probably too good but it's late so I'm tired. Anyway, what about giving the over-B Heavy Armor. (Yoshi's second jump has heavy armor). The move would still be predictable it just would REQUIRE you to dodge or roll away. Not A-jab and laugh.

 

[The Cape]

I was thinking it could be faster.

Or Heavy armor works >.>

 

[Ulevo]

That was what I suggested above GoG.