Ganon

[bladeofapollo]

lol, did i offend you only on that point, lol?

No, I was just adding on to your joke. Notice how I didn't disagree w/ the REST of the list.

Yeah.

Sheik doesnt annhilate either one of those 2.

Frickin Iori goes usually goes to every tourney with the goal of beating every sheik main in atleast a mm. Unless im mistaken, he beat tope at TO4.

As for kirby, sheik is actually one of kirby's better matchups (as in, kirby doesnt get annhilated as bad by sheik).

Hm, I figured most of the grab/duck stuff was useful, but I didn't think he'd be able to attack her back. I figured a turtling Sheik would just shut Kirby down. Again, I don't have much experience w/ either character, I'm just thinking about it.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[RockCrock]

Combos are the name of the game, and every character in the middle tier and above combos better than Ganondorf. And I feel that the tier list should reflect exactly that. Sure, he is strong, and his hit-boxes are larger than life, but the inability to guarantee consecutive hits restricts Ganondorf to the middle tier.

High:
Jiggs
Falcon
Ice Climbers
Peach (currently overrated imo)

Mid:
Luigi
Dr. Mario
Mr. Mario
DK

Low:
Ganon
Samus (for the same reasons as Ganon, her combo ability is poor, and the combos she does have suck.)

 

[dashdancedan]

ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Yeah, after seeing Jiggs in action yesterday, I'm most likely gonna be jumping on the "Jiggs in top tier" band wagon.

 

[Zoro]

lost to two ganons at zp lol

i love ganon though hes so fun

 

[RockCrock]

DK for top tier?


Combos are the name of the game, and every character in the middle tier and above combos better than Ganondorf. And I feel that the tier list should reflect exactly that. Sure, he is strong, and his hit-boxes are larger than life, but the inability to guarantee consecutive hits restricts Ganondorf to the middle tier.

High:
Jiggs
Falcon
Ice Climbers
Peach (currently overrated imo)

Mid:
Luigi
Dr. Mario
Mr. Mario
DK

Low:
Ganon
Samus (for the same reasons as Ganon, her combo ability is poor, and the combos she does have suck.)

 

[Dorsey]

you would honestly put ganon below the plumbers and monkey?..... Combos aren't the name of the game to that extent, imo! Match-ups(_opportunities_ for combos according to the match up as well) hold just as much weight.

 

[Finch]

Yeah I feel like the marios have a much harder time getting hits in than ganon and samus.

 

[RockCrock]

I would probably agree with that statement, but when they do score hits, they have a much greater chance of continuing to score hits.

Look at the way Colin plays. When he hits you, he starts a combo, you take massive damage, and are either knocked off the stage, or left high in the air. It takes just a SINGLE attack to initiate a fatal chain-reaction. Fox not only has more opportunities to starts combos, but the combos are more effective too. Compare the combo rate of Colin's Fox to any Ganon/Samus player of comparable skill. They aren't the same, and it makes a huge difference.


Now replace the words Colin and Fox with the words Kyle and Mario. The paragraph remains

Spoiler

mostly

true. Combos make this game what it is.

 

[Finch]

Mario's upair does like what? 9 damage? Just look at rom crews and you doing 4 hits with ganon for like 80 percent, plus ganon and samus being some of the best at edgeguarding in the game. You can't just look at combos. They're really important, and the best characters in the game are definitely the best at comboing, but they aren't everything.

 

[RockCrock]

Mario's upair does like what? 9 damage? Just look at rom crews and you doing 4 hits with ganon for like 80 percent, plus ganon and samus being some of the best at edgeguarding in the game. You can't just look at combos. They're really important, and the best characters in the game are definitely the best at comboing, but they aren't everything.

Yeah so a four hit combo does 80 dmg. How often do you think those happen? I'm lucky to get those once a set.


And where do you get off claiming "some of the best edgeguarding in the game?" I hear that a lot, and I think its a load of crap. Your telling me that ganon/samus compare to the shine spiking, falco's dair, Marth's poke/fwrd smash, and Sheik's ledgehoped bairs? Mario's Cape? Peach's dair to nair combo and dsmash? I would not be surprised if Hungry could edgeguard five players at once. And you are telling ME that Ganon has some of the best edgeguarding in the game? It's good, but its far from "some of the best." And Samus? What the hell does Samus have?


Ganon should move down, not up.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

When I start seeing mario's and docs placing higher than gannon ill agree, til then, we'll have to watch emilio and that fvcking homo kage keep gannon where he's at(or higher?)

 

[Sandtru27]

lol get owned finch ur byad

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon's edgeguarding is pretty nasty.

 

[harriettheguy]

Recent studies have shown that cancelling Ganon's Thunderdrop may save stocks.

 

[-ACE-]

Recent studies have shown that cancelling Ganon's Thunderdrop may save stocks.

lol it's true! me and my boys have used this in quad falcon matches quite a bit

 

[exarch]

Yeah so a four hit combo does 80 dmg. How often do you think those happen? I'm lucky to get those once a set.


And where do you get off claiming "some of the best edgeguarding in the game?" I hear that a lot, and I think its a load of crap. Your telling me that ganon/samus compare to the shine spiking, falco's dair, Marth's poke/fwrd smash, and Sheik's ledgehoped bairs? Mario's Cape? Peach's dair to nair combo and dsmash? I would not be surprised if Hungry could edgeguard five players at once. And you are telling ME that Ganon has some of the best edgeguarding in the game? It's good, but its far from "some of the best." And Samus? What the hell does Samus have?


Ganon should move down, not up.

But you're not a combo oriented player. Your Fox and DK don't combo nearly as well as either character can. You focus far more on spacing which is one of Ganon's strong points, so you still place well (plus you're smart so that helps,) but don't tell me Ganon's combos aren't good when...

Grabs go for ~20% against most of the cast from 0-kill percents, with the grabbed character typically being left high in the air/off the stage for some edgeguarding. That's better than Falco, Puff, Peach, Samus, Doc, Mario, Luigi, etc. etc.

A single dair leads to another which does 44% if it's the first dair, into a tech chase. 44% is CCing most of peach's dsmash (one of peach's best combos.) If ganon goes for a dsmash or overb instead, he can pretty easily lengthen combos to 3-4 hits which is about 60% or more than half a stock when you're playing against Ganon.

Ganon's edgeguarding is verrry good, because IF it hits, the opponent is DEAD. Peach dair->nair? It's good against Ganon, but even then it must be done right 4 times in a row before Ganon dies. Against the other characters? It's really not that good.


Point being: OK Ganon isn't the best comboer, but he kills in less hits. Doing 18% with a fair is like a 40% combo for Marth in some matchups (thankfully they are also equivalently easy to do for both characters.) Doing a 60+% combo? that's a little more difficult, but so is doing a 100+% combo with marth, neither happen very often.

Just because he can't guarantee consecutive hits doesn't stop him from being a good character. His ability to KILL is a big strength not enjoyed by (Peach) Doc, Mario, Luigi or Samus.

 

[Finch]

Wow gmoney you are ********.

And Dennis I'm surprised, you should know better how much better Ganon is at edgeguarding than mario, peach, ICs, falcon, etc. Obviously he's not as good as falco, fox, marth, sheik and jiggs, but that's why they're the best and way higher tier than ganon.

I don't know anything about samus except for esam's **** combo video in which he edgeguards the **** out of everything.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Yeah I really can't tell if Rock is serious.

I think he's just tired of losing as gannon

And where is gmoney in this thread finch?

 

[SleepyK]

i haven't read any of this thread but

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te6WkqQfSmc

please tell me this hasn't been posted already

but without reading any arguments, kage has been performing very well with ganon. perhaps he deserves a bump.

 

[Dorsey]

I think you are downplaying his edge guarding skills a little, rockcrock. Ganon can 0-death from the first attack just as fast as an awesome fox given the right circumstances. There are just so many opportunities and avenues to get someone off the edge and have them stay off when using ganon. All of these are basically avoidable, but it's easy to mindgame your opponent to do otherwise....being that you have so many ways to edge guard. Even if it's as simple as letting your opponent think they are avoiding the edge guard when you're just luring them to drop zone dair range.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Ganon definitely needs to move up.

and lol at that vid sleepyk.

some kid posted(basically verbatim) exactly what that video said.

 

[SleepyK]

yeah, that was where the vid came from

but the new kage ganon playstyle really changes the ganon landscape.

ganonscape.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

LOL, kage.

Cananda is trash

 

[Dorsey]

Ganon shouldn't move up or down, imo.. also, kage is decent but i have never understood the insane hype about his ganon. Doesn't make sense...

 

[SleepyK]

just look at his placings and who he has beaten.

 

[Dorsey]

Look at his match-ups, bad and good. Look at his placings, bad and good. Look at who he's lost too, good wins in addition to bad losses. Kage owns, I'm just saying he's not as special as some tend to believe.

 

[Life After Death]

kage is decent. he just the lil wayne of ganon he is more expsoe to toruneys so he's more mainstream. chaddd tipman and linguini are wayy above him. but they cant prove it they too underground at least tipman and linguni is. so kage is just officially the best for now

 

[Dorsey]

If kage is the lil wayne of ganon than i'm big pun.

 

[SleepyK]

well no, lil wayne isn't even decent, lol.

but i do think tipman is best ganon.

 

[PolMex23]

exactly Lil wayne is decent.

He has his moments...

Elam that was a good analogy.

Tipman was Big Pun. Or lets just say, he was Naz...a founder of the revolutionized metagame for ganon...

Emillio spits hot fire, an im glad hes comin back.

Chaddd spits fairs...Im glad hes coming back? Chaddd u playin still? (idk any better dont beat me down)

But I love Kage...The man is a lovable canadian...Lol he questioned my "Inner Warrior"...i respect that =D

 

[SleepyK]

chaddd still plays!
still ***** faces.

 

[PolMex23]

lol why is wes being a fairy? =-[

 

[SleepyK]

oh, he's all going to europe and being rusty.

like a fairy.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

*waiting for homo kage to search his name and make a useless post in this thread*

kage
kage
kage
kage
gayge

 

[Finch]

Sandtru is gmoney

 

[harriettheguy]

Gmoney what are you you doing in this thread get back in the water.

Kage is Canadian.

 

[Dogysamich]

Hm, I figured most of the grab/duck stuff was useful, but I didn't think he'd be able to attack her back. I figured a turtling Sheik would just shut Kirby down. Again, I don't have much experience w/ either character, I'm just thinking about it.

Im a day late, a dollar short, and I know nobody really cares; but you realize that kirby's d.tilt is still low as hell (not to mention kirby's d.tilt is as long as sheik's moveset, save backair)

And it's not like kirby cant duck -> u.tilt (once or more di depending), -> grab/u.air/b.air.

Sheik's gunna turtle and what? Throw needles? Only needles that hit kirby are jumping needles.

_

It winds up being a ridiculously long match (which in smash terms means that somebody HAS to dominate the matchup, lol), but it's by no means kirby's worst matchup.

Oh no, that honor is saved for marth. XD

 

[Renth]

no loves

also, don't care about tier lists or whos better than who. Just play the **** game.