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Ganon
- Thread starter Life After Death
- Start date
Dorsey
Banned via Warnings
Any of you ganon mains going to herb 2?
bladeofapollo
Smash Ace
Wait, grab->Uair? What throw do you have to do to get that, cuz I try to combo out of his throws, but I can't get much. Just Utilt after a missed dthrow tech. I guess Uthrow->Uair might work.
I never really thought it was Kirby's worst match-up either, I just thought it was pretty heavily against him. Apparently it's not as bad as I'd thought. Once again, lack of experience. As demonstrated by FL's recent tournie results, Kirby (and amusingly Sheik) aren't the state's best characters.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
Yeah, Kirby can combo uthrow uair with bad DI at low %s... it's a pretty random combo to get, but once in a while, it's possible...
Sheik Kirby is a pretty funny match, actually. With every Kirby match, it's boring as anything... but funny none-the-less.
That's mean to be read as grab OR u.air OR b.air.
As for you thinking it's heavily against him, most people in the community think it is for the same reason I said earlier. It's a general assumption around here that "If I've never seen this matchup, the higher tier completely annhilates the lower tier." You're not crazy or anything, that's just how things work around here. :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te6WkqQfSmc&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div
I just found this. o3o;
Not sure if it has been posted.
I just found this. o3o;
Not sure if it has been posted.
Blatt Blvd
Smash Ace
Are we trying to say Kirby isn't bad because we found a single combo vs shiek with him, LOL?
kirby is still dead last in melee
kirby is still dead last in melee
The Alpha Gundam
Smash Champion
according to assumptions yeah he might as well be lol
Kirby vs Sheik sounds better than Samus vs Sheik LOL and I'm not even kidding >_>
Kirby vs Sheik sounds better than Samus vs Sheik LOL and I'm not even kidding >_>
bladeofapollo
Smash Ace
Well, actually, it's a decent trend to follow. Generally the higher tier characters will beat the lower tiers. Perhaps not "annihilate the lower tier," but it's generally against him.
It wasn't my only reasoning tho. I did try to use my (somewhat limited) knowledge of both characters to figure how they could each counter-act each other's approaches/strategies/etc and came to the conclusion that Sheik would win.
Also the fact that I remember hearing a long time ago that "Sheik destroys the low tiers" probably helped me create that idea.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
If sexiness meant a **** thing Ganon would be top tier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBkQzueWrMk
lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBkQzueWrMk
lol
Well you beat me too it Sleepy. = 3=
exarch
doot doot doot
Mmm, disagree. Samus is Kirby's worst matchup. WD back -> tilt is too much for kirby to handle.
And the point is not that Kirby goes even or beats sheik, but that all top tiers have slightly more difficult lower tier matchups. Thus, saying Ganon shouldn't be moved up because the lower tiers do better against him is ridiculous. He deserves a bump.
Also: Renth is amazing
<3 Mark
*waves at Darrel*
bladeofapollo
Smash Ace
I guess what people are getting at is that Ganon has MORE bad low tier matchups and they're generally WORSE than others. A good Link can stand up to Marth, but Marth still generally wins. Sheik doesn't annihilate Kirby, but she wrecks the rest of the low tiers pretty bad. Peach has "trouble" against Y.Link, but it's (at worst) 60-40 in Y.Link's favor.
Ganon has many more people below him (DK, Link, Kirby, etc) that give him more trouble than they should, so his position shouldn't really improve.
On the OTHER hand, Ganon's have been placing pretty high recently, so it is worth the time to reconsider his placement.
Ganon has many more people below him (DK, Link, Kirby, etc) that give him more trouble than they should, so his position shouldn't really improve.
On the OTHER hand, Ganon's have been placing pretty high recently, so it is worth the time to reconsider his placement.
What.
If she tilts, she doesnt have one that beats all of his options.
Marth, on the other hand can just do retreating fairs and do the same thing.
Not to mention kirby can actualy shield approach against samus because he has ALOT more time to react to her grab. Hell, if he calls it, he can just duck it.
Kirby cant do that vs marth. I mean, yes kirby can duck marth's grabs (at specific ranges, I actually need to go back to see if kirby can DoR marth's grab), but regardless, marth's grab is relatively safe vs kirby. Not to mention marth actually has other options that beat shield.
___
But for what this thread is about: I dont see how a character's matchups vs the entire cast DOESNT matter. With that statement, no matchup should really matter to fox or marth, inspite of the fact that some people argue they have disadvantage vs falco and sheik respecitvely.
The Alpha Gundam
Smash Champion
Samus is no one's worst matchup lol
exarch
doot doot doot
Hang on, hear me out.
Samus has projectiles. Taking advantage of Kirby's poor speed in the air and on the ground, she can make it a nightmare for him to even get close enough to hitting her.
ANY aerial approach by kirby is countered by WD back utilt. Also, approaching with shield is useless against this too, Samus recovers to quickly from the utilt. If kirby stays on the ground, WD back ftilt is too fast for Kirby to get inside of to punish the WD back, and if he shields the wind down is too fast for kirby to punish either.
Above and beyond Kirby's ability to hit Samus, he'll never get more than one hit in at a time; Samus stun time is too low for him to get two utilts in a row. Plus, Samus exacerbates Kirby's inability to kill, living easily to +220%, and has no risk of ever getting hit by Kirby while recovering.
------
Marth, at least, has to be close to Kirby to hurt him. And one of Marth's biggest strengths is taken away by Kirby: his edgeguarding game. Samus doesn't rely on hers, so it doesn't hurt her. Marth will take more than 10% at any one time because his stun is a little more, he's also only going to live till 180%ish unless he freakishly gets edgeguarded (2% is more than 0% chance.) And he's going to have a harder time killing Kirby, not getting guarenteed KOs until much after Samus.
--------
TL;DR
Compared to Marth:
Samus kills Kirby earlier, and zones him much better with projectiles. She lives longer and falls into less combos.
Kirby plays into Samus' strengths. Thus, Samus is a worse matchup for Kirby than Marth, and Kirby's worst.
------------------------------------------------
More on topic:
Ganon really doesn't do that bad except against maybe 3 low tiers, which I found equal amounts for the rest of the top tiers. So move him up.
Samus has projectiles. Taking advantage of Kirby's poor speed in the air and on the ground, she can make it a nightmare for him to even get close enough to hitting her.
ANY aerial approach by kirby is countered by WD back utilt. Also, approaching with shield is useless against this too, Samus recovers to quickly from the utilt. If kirby stays on the ground, WD back ftilt is too fast for Kirby to get inside of to punish the WD back, and if he shields the wind down is too fast for kirby to punish either.
Above and beyond Kirby's ability to hit Samus, he'll never get more than one hit in at a time; Samus stun time is too low for him to get two utilts in a row. Plus, Samus exacerbates Kirby's inability to kill, living easily to +220%, and has no risk of ever getting hit by Kirby while recovering.
------
Marth, at least, has to be close to Kirby to hurt him. And one of Marth's biggest strengths is taken away by Kirby: his edgeguarding game. Samus doesn't rely on hers, so it doesn't hurt her. Marth will take more than 10% at any one time because his stun is a little more, he's also only going to live till 180%ish unless he freakishly gets edgeguarded (2% is more than 0% chance.) And he's going to have a harder time killing Kirby, not getting guarenteed KOs until much after Samus.
--------
TL;DR
Compared to Marth:
Samus kills Kirby earlier, and zones him much better with projectiles. She lives longer and falls into less combos.
Kirby plays into Samus' strengths. Thus, Samus is a worse matchup for Kirby than Marth, and Kirby's worst.
------------------------------------------------
More on topic:
Ganon really doesn't do that bad except against maybe 3 low tiers, which I found equal amounts for the rest of the top tiers. So move him up.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
Just as a personal thing, Marth is harder for Kirby.
tbh, Kirby's opponent's stun time doesn't matter a whole heck of a lot because Kirby can't really combo... and can't realy hit with anything that he CAN combo with...
While WD back is stupid against Kirby... I found I was able to get inside it sometimes anyway... of course with perfect Samus play, that match is ridiculous too... but just to clarify something...
Marth can never... ever... ever be hit by Kirby with proper play. Nothing Kirby has is faster or has more range than anything marth has... in the air or on the ground... Samus is similabr, but without disjointed stuff, so Kirby can at least trade sometimes...
Kirby's duck means nothing to marth. Kirby's bair means nothing to marth... Marth has dtilt, fair, and fsmash (which is mostly unpunishable since kirby is so slow..)...
And since Fair > kirby, edgeguarding is simple...not sure why you would think it's hard... jump and fair (or bair, if the fair tipper is a concern, and you want more horizontal knockback), and kirby gets hit. repeat 2x, and fsmash the upB... or just be evil and go for a spike... a bit riskier, but yeah.
The only real advantage here that Samus has over marth are the projectiles... that makes enough sense... but I don't think it makes it that much worse, and given the unhittable nature of Marth (who can WD back anything just as easily).. Marth's harder.
Kirby is such a bad character.... x.x
About Ganon,
a 0-death cg does not mean an autowin... or really even an advantage. Ganon can cg the living crap out of Link, but Link doesn't have to get grabbed... so it doesn't matter. just for example... I mean, for that matter, Ganon has a 0-death cg on both Falco and Fox (albeit almost impossible to actually do), but even if it were a bit easier, he wouldn't be at an advantage against them
A player's spot on the tier list has to be a gauge of how well that character will do against the entire cast (at least, it really should be), compare to other characters...
Fox is top spot because he doesn't really have a disadvantageous matchup against anybody. Marth is a similar deal. To be honest, I don't know how most of the lower tiers do against Ganon... I'm a bit out of my element here... I just know the mechanics of a tier list, at least...
tbh, Kirby's opponent's stun time doesn't matter a whole heck of a lot because Kirby can't really combo... and can't realy hit with anything that he CAN combo with...
While WD back is stupid against Kirby... I found I was able to get inside it sometimes anyway... of course with perfect Samus play, that match is ridiculous too... but just to clarify something...
Marth can never... ever... ever be hit by Kirby with proper play. Nothing Kirby has is faster or has more range than anything marth has... in the air or on the ground... Samus is similabr, but without disjointed stuff, so Kirby can at least trade sometimes...
Kirby's duck means nothing to marth. Kirby's bair means nothing to marth... Marth has dtilt, fair, and fsmash (which is mostly unpunishable since kirby is so slow..)...
And since Fair > kirby, edgeguarding is simple...not sure why you would think it's hard... jump and fair (or bair, if the fair tipper is a concern, and you want more horizontal knockback), and kirby gets hit. repeat 2x, and fsmash the upB... or just be evil and go for a spike... a bit riskier, but yeah.
The only real advantage here that Samus has over marth are the projectiles... that makes enough sense... but I don't think it makes it that much worse, and given the unhittable nature of Marth (who can WD back anything just as easily).. Marth's harder.
Kirby is such a bad character.... x.x
About Ganon,
a 0-death cg does not mean an autowin... or really even an advantage. Ganon can cg the living crap out of Link, but Link doesn't have to get grabbed... so it doesn't matter. just for example... I mean, for that matter, Ganon has a 0-death cg on both Falco and Fox (albeit almost impossible to actually do), but even if it were a bit easier, he wouldn't be at an advantage against them
A player's spot on the tier list has to be a gauge of how well that character will do against the entire cast (at least, it really should be), compare to other characters...
Fox is top spot because he doesn't really have a disadvantageous matchup against anybody. Marth is a similar deal. To be honest, I don't know how most of the lower tiers do against Ganon... I'm a bit out of my element here... I just know the mechanics of a tier list, at least...
bladeofapollo
Smash Ace
How about Link? She's just like him except w/ a better recovery AND better Nair!
/sarcasm
Samus v Link is fun
The Alpha Gundam
Smash Champion
Credit to Dogy:
In the case of WD back 2 Uptilt with Samus, Kirby can just Swallow *which is disjointed by the way* and will beat out Samus uptilt. In other words if Kirby calls a WD back to Uptilt all he needs to do is SH to swallow and *poof* Kirby becomes a bounty hunter XD
and Kirby can duck missiles and run away from homing ones >_>
Fenir is right though the tier list should be gauge by how everyone fairs vs everyone *at least that's how every other fighting game community does it*
Of course if were going strictly off of tourney results then i think CF should be over Sheik due to the lack of Sheik players vs CF <_<
lol I play this matchup a good bit over here lol
and **** link's Nair -_-
NES n00b
Smash Master
Link has the advantage.
bladeofapollo
Smash Ace
Haha, Link's Nair eat Samus's *insert move here*
#HBC | Gorf
toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
I say that Ganon should be a bit higher, not TOO much, but a bit.
Top:
Fox
Marth
Sheik/Jiggz
Sheik/Jiggz
Falco
High:
IC
Peach
CF
Samus
Mid:
Ganon
Doc
Mario
Luigi
Link
Low:
Pika
DK
Zelda
Roy
GaW
Y Link
Bottom:
Mewtwo (I play with ADHD, don't blame me XD)
Ness
Kirby
Yoshi
Bowser
Pichu
This is through personal experience and matchups, and it's imo. Sex kicks are the s*it!
Top:
Fox
Marth
Sheik/Jiggz
Sheik/Jiggz
Falco
High:
IC
Peach
CF
Samus
Mid:
Ganon
Doc
Mario
Luigi
Link
Low:
Pika
DK
Zelda
Roy
GaW
Y Link
Bottom:
Mewtwo (I play with ADHD, don't blame me XD)
Ness
Kirby
Yoshi
Bowser
Pichu
This is through personal experience and matchups, and it's imo. Sex kicks are the s*it!
Gerbil
Smash Champion
I'm biding my time for when the moment is right to throw in some actual "real" opinion and conjectures, but it's still not quite at that point.
However, I feel it is needed to state the following, and please, I have no bias toward anyone or any particular side of any argument here. Nor do I hold any animosity to anyone in this or any other thread.
If you are going to post "your tier list" you need to provide more than just "here's what I think." Please provide valid reasons as to why you think the changes you made should be, and don't give half-***** answers like "well according to my experience" and "fox ***** lawl lawl lawl."
This is a fighting game community. Like it or not, that's what we are. We shouldn't have to conform to general fighting games, we CAN be unique, but if we're going to be unique we need to be sensible.
In fact, I plan on breaking down some walls on almost every character in this game eventually through logic and reasoning based off of, and no I'm not being hypocritical with this statement, my experience in OTHER games of competitive play, and my observations of THINKING.
Simply put, people's conjectures (noones in particular at the moment) have no grounds other than "I think it's this so it HAS to be and this amount of people agree with me." I see few people in this topic actually looking at things from OTHER VIEWPOINTS.
Too many people here are blinded by what they think they already know. If Melee is going to continue, we need to evolve around the fact that "well a lot of people see it as this, so that must be it."
A lot of people thought the world was flat, but that didn't turn out to be the case.
In late 2004 Chillindude829 lost a tournament to Ken. It was claimed that Fox would never be able to outplay Marth at any level within any manner of time. The community was quick to close that door.
Early 2005 (I might have the 2004/2005 mixed up and it could be 2005/2006; Help me out Wes). A fox player by the name of Tetsuya stands out in the community. Wavedashing is young, and L-Cancel was only a fragment of competitive play. However, in a brief 4-5 month span, Tetsuya completely changfed the metagame of how Fox was played (along with some other players, Tetsuya is the only one that I know of by namesake). With that said, Tetsuya almost singlehandedly created the Fox we know today (and by what we know today, I mean the speed demon, tech heavy character).
My point of this post? Don't be so quick to close options. If we remain open minded about EVERY possible viewpoint, we will only expand our knowledge.
A prodigy of why low tier is important in discussion of any character placement...
If Iori goes and beats foxes, falcos, ganons, and others with Mewtwo (top players at that) why shouldn't we have another look?
If Reflex made M2K work a little to beat a Bowser, I think there is a viable reason to delve into the subject of doing a complete review of ALL characters.
We can't continue to base our knowledge on what the general acceptance is. There will be no progress that way. We have to progress by trying out different things, even if they seem unlikely.
Don't forget, it was unlikely the Romans and Greeks could discover the approximate circumference of the globe (which, as we know from basic history, at the time was commonly thought of as being "flat") but they did it.
I've said my 2 cents. If you've taken the time to read it, kudos. Because I plan on comming back with a big asswooping of a post(s) sometime down the line if this stuff doesn't fix.
With posts like the ones I'm seeing, the community will rip itself apart faster than evolve and become bigger.
However, I feel it is needed to state the following, and please, I have no bias toward anyone or any particular side of any argument here. Nor do I hold any animosity to anyone in this or any other thread.
If you are going to post "your tier list" you need to provide more than just "here's what I think." Please provide valid reasons as to why you think the changes you made should be, and don't give half-***** answers like "well according to my experience" and "fox ***** lawl lawl lawl."
This is a fighting game community. Like it or not, that's what we are. We shouldn't have to conform to general fighting games, we CAN be unique, but if we're going to be unique we need to be sensible.
In fact, I plan on breaking down some walls on almost every character in this game eventually through logic and reasoning based off of, and no I'm not being hypocritical with this statement, my experience in OTHER games of competitive play, and my observations of THINKING.
Simply put, people's conjectures (noones in particular at the moment) have no grounds other than "I think it's this so it HAS to be and this amount of people agree with me." I see few people in this topic actually looking at things from OTHER VIEWPOINTS.
Too many people here are blinded by what they think they already know. If Melee is going to continue, we need to evolve around the fact that "well a lot of people see it as this, so that must be it."
A lot of people thought the world was flat, but that didn't turn out to be the case.
In late 2004 Chillindude829 lost a tournament to Ken. It was claimed that Fox would never be able to outplay Marth at any level within any manner of time. The community was quick to close that door.
Early 2005 (I might have the 2004/2005 mixed up and it could be 2005/2006; Help me out Wes). A fox player by the name of Tetsuya stands out in the community. Wavedashing is young, and L-Cancel was only a fragment of competitive play. However, in a brief 4-5 month span, Tetsuya completely changfed the metagame of how Fox was played (along with some other players, Tetsuya is the only one that I know of by namesake). With that said, Tetsuya almost singlehandedly created the Fox we know today (and by what we know today, I mean the speed demon, tech heavy character).
My point of this post? Don't be so quick to close options. If we remain open minded about EVERY possible viewpoint, we will only expand our knowledge.
A prodigy of why low tier is important in discussion of any character placement...
If Iori goes and beats foxes, falcos, ganons, and others with Mewtwo (top players at that) why shouldn't we have another look?
If Reflex made M2K work a little to beat a Bowser, I think there is a viable reason to delve into the subject of doing a complete review of ALL characters.
We can't continue to base our knowledge on what the general acceptance is. There will be no progress that way. We have to progress by trying out different things, even if they seem unlikely.
Don't forget, it was unlikely the Romans and Greeks could discover the approximate circumference of the globe (which, as we know from basic history, at the time was commonly thought of as being "flat") but they did it.
I've said my 2 cents. If you've taken the time to read it, kudos. Because I plan on comming back with a big asswooping of a post(s) sometime down the line if this stuff doesn't fix.
With posts like the ones I'm seeing, the community will rip itself apart faster than evolve and become bigger.
Blatt Blvd
Smash Ace
The "final" tier list is made and not even a year later Jiggs is winning tourneys and master hand has been discovered as a playable character(kinda).
it happened with the previous tier list that had fox and falco on top, marth and shiek were owning a month after it was made.
8 years
it happened with the previous tier list that had fox and falco on top, marth and shiek were owning a month after it was made.
8 years
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
As long as melee is being played.
It will evolve.
There will never be a "final" tier list.
It will evolve.
There will never be a "final" tier list.
#HBC | Gorf
toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
This.
But if you want backup for my explanations Gerbil, here it is:
Top
Fox- No bad matchups, just incredible overall.
Marth- Watch Ken..
Sheik- no expl./Jiggz- She has an incredible air game and can kill at 20% and up. Need I say more?
Falco- A nerfed Fox, but still amazing.
High
ICs- Wobbling and incredible grab game make ICs imo top of high.
Peach- Icredible air game, but not that to surpass ICs.
CF- no expl.
Samus- Her unbelievible recovery, priority and combo ability putsz him bottom of high.
Middle
Ganon- Chops' first post on thread.
Doc- Mario with a bit more power.
Mario- Doc with a bit less power.
Luigi- Although not a clone of Mario and Doc, I main Luigi, and understand that he has a pretty powerful air game, recovery and wavedash.
Link- although slow and hwavy, he's also very powerful. And moves like his u tilt, nair, fair and bair, quick and easy, help him use those kill moves faster. Plus his great grappling hook.
Low
Pika- Although weaker, Pika has the ability to go way off stage and recover better than DK. Plus he has projectiles, great edgeguarding.
DK- Powerful, great horizantal recovery, but not much else.
Zelda- Hard to use but powerful fair and bair, and decent edgeguarding. I use Zelda/Shiek often, and definitely think that if you have the fair and bair down, you can switch to Zelda when they're 100%? and kick em.
Roy- no expl.
GaW- He's okay, but slow smashes and mediocre air game stop him from going higher.
Y Link- DAM! HE IS BAD! Honestly though, I say this because he is Link with no good aspects. So we're supposed to play him for his fire arrows?
Bottom
Mewtwo- DAM! HE IS GOOD! #3 Mewtwo in the country ADHD proved that ADHD his ability. His nair is pretty sweet, his wavedashing is good, but from that, I don't know how he does it.
Ness- no expl.
Kirby- He's better than alot of the bottom, but not good. The only things going for him is his b throw and his recovery.
Yoshi- B air and eggs. That's it.
Bowser- He's garbage, until you see someone like Gimpyfish play.
Pichu- Really? Need I say more?
Gerbil
Smash Champion
To counter, I'll start off with one character... and by counter, I mean a FULL explanation, and this is what I intend to do with the whole cast over time.
Fox.
I think Fox should NOT be the first on the tier list.
Fox's Pros:
Fox has an extremely fast moveset, that has effectiveness in variable ways. Let's break it down to his air game, is ground game, his grab game, and his edgeguard game.
Air game: Virtually all 5 aerials are useful in some way. The least of which would be a forward air attack. The bair has good knockback and comboeability, and the frames at which it comes out is quite fast. The same can be said with the neutral air. His down air is a weak spike and could potentially be used as part of his edge game. His up air is easily considered a top choice for a kill move. Overall, his air game is quite effective on the offense if he should successfully hit and combo. Not to mention Fox's Shine can be added in this as a mixup, and you have a potential one hit stock should the opponent misread (a lot) and finds themselves off the stage in a manner of seconds.
Grab game: Fox has several chaingrabs, some of which include, but are not limited to: Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon. When I say "chaingrab" I mean that Fox can grab the opponent at LEAST 3 times in a row. I do not include "twice" because sometimes it's due to DI that people pull off second grabs. For example, Fox COULD grab/uthrow Ganon 3 times, but more often than not, Ganon is going to jump/move away/something else to avoid the third grab. Fox's dthrow is a potential tech read to usmash: not the most effective kill, but it works if a person gets the right read (and if we go by pure numbers and not the overall player's ability to read, the chances of reading a tech properly after a downthrow is 20%, as a downthrown person has 5 "realistic" options: roll left, roll right, get up with an attack, get up stationary, or sit there and wait to make an appropriate choice out of the above) Fthrow and Bthrow arn't as effective for doing too much with. Fthrow's range isn't really anything, thow it could be a surprise to the opponent if Fox throws them off the stage. Same can be said with the Bthrow.
Ground game: I'll be the first to admit that Fox's ground game is good. All 3 directional smash attacks are powerful and useful in some way. His fully charged upsmash is the most powerful in the game, allowing for kills easily in the 90%s (some less/more). It is a quick attack, and is usually the decisive kill of an opponent when they are on the ground/air (not off the edge normally). The dsmash is more often seen used as an edgeguard technique. I'll go more on that later. The fsmash, though used, is not practical to set up. However a fsmash could be setup, most commonly a usmash can be in there as well. Fox's dash attack is exceptional WHEN it connects (more on this later) because it can set up into utilts and then uairs from there (or usmashes, whatever you like). Fox's tilts, utilt, dtilt, ftilt (angled/nonangled) are useful in some manner (not so much the ftilt). Utilt is a surprisingly easy use for setting up comboes and kill moves such as uair/usmash. The dtilt causes the opponent to "pop" into the air. Another good setup into kill moves.
Edge game: Well let's face it. Fox has an option for almost every edge approach. If someone is coming from above, Fox simply needs to watch their point of approach and get in one good usmash, or, if the % is too low, hit them with a bair. If the opponent is going for a sweetspot, a simple ledgehog/shinespike works easily. If the opponent is coming from below but not looking for the sweetspot, fox can dair/dsmash/dtilt into a set other move (or the dsmash might just kill them at that point). All in all, Fox has an "answer" to most approaches......... if he can pull it off.
Sounds pretty good so far right? I mean, I think I just made it seem like Fox was by far, a top choice. And for years he really has become a top choice.
Time to rip Fox a new one.
Fox's Cons:
Here we go.
Character mathup. Everyone here would agree that Fox, on a high level of play, has no bad matchups. So where do we define high level of play? Do we put Fox as Silent Wolf? Mew2King? Hell, myself, since I have a technical management of him? What about Soft, who just went to a NFL tournament and butt ****ed almost half the players with Fox, and he plays Jiggs?
We don't. We don't judge Fox based on who controls the character. We NEED to judge Fox based off of what he is.... just a character.
"Don't Get Hit." "If the opponent is smarter, they will win." "I just beat Chaddd with Mewtwo LOL"
Those are quotes we see pretty often. The reason they even exist now is because SOMEONE out there, denied the current acceptable ideals. It is because noone manages to master a character to the point where they will always win. Quite frankly, it will never happen. Don't you dare say it IS happening, because I will shut you down so hard. In fact, let me shut that point down real quick:
Side story: Halo 3 MLG, STK (Shoot To Kill) was reigning champions for 8 years. They became Team 3D, and eventually Final Boss. Everyone thought they were unbeatable. Then a new generation of gamers flocked in (younger people, who have learned everything they needed to and more) and wiped them out. Case closed.
Back to Fox.
So far the tier list has been based heavily on tournament results and overall potential. However, when that potential crap came into discussion, people only looked at how well a character matched up against other characters that people thought were good. I can give you a list of characters that Fox actually has a little bit of trouble with. If you want explanations why, I'll give them. Just ask me to. This is also not a completed list of characters, because I'm a bit lazy right now (especially after typing all this ****)
Fox has some trouble with:
Samus
ICs
Young Link
Bowser of all things
Mewtwo of all things
Pikachu of all things
Marth is a given
Peach
Fox
Falco
Luigi
Pretty big list huh? If I wanted to, I could probably throw in a few more characters and give extremely good reasons as to why there is difficulty. But I will only do that apon request.
Does anyone see a trend in the characters I selected, and why I would suppose Fox has trouble with them?
Each character has the potential to beat Fox easily, if done right. This is where the argument is going to get a bit sketchy, and I am going to do my best to not be hypocrtical in my viewpoint.
If we look at all those characters, we can see that each one has a ton of things that Fox would run into trouble with. For example, Samus's amazing edgegame, Marth is a gimme, and if you don't know, you should stop reading this whole thread, Pikachu has comboeability on Fox whereas Fox doesn't get a luxury "that" easily on pikachu, Peach has chainthrows, stunning projectiles, a dsmash that can deal 50% and gives huge knockback depending on the setup, an easy edgegame against Fox's specific recovery due to how linear it is; Bowser actually has a MID ****ING AIR CHAINGRAB on Fox, as well as an easy tech chase game on him, and hard hitting moves.
Oh and a big point.
Fox's recovery is so linear, almost ANY character has a decisive way for dealing with it, if done properly. Seriously, if Fox is off that stage, there should be no problem destroying him, even if it would take a bit of time. As long as Fox isn't allowed a sweetspot, he can be stopped. Play and simple. If I have to explain it for a certain character, I will (but do note: I said ALMOST any of them, not ALL of them).
Now this is the point where someone might say "Well, if used properly, Fox won't get into that stuff."
I'll counter with "Well, if the OTHER characters were used properly, Fox COULD get into that stuff."
This is where you can't judge based on how well a top played character fairs against each other. We've been doing that for years, and it worked for a while, but it's time for a bit of change.
A character on top of the tier list, by definition, should be the best. When determining the best, ALL factors must be looked at, and not just how good one character does against another.It is true, Fox has a lot going for him. I never denied that, but Fox also has SO MUCH going against him, it is hard to say that the balance should tip in the favor of him being the best.
That's kind of like saying Chip should be top in Guilty Gear because he is fast, even though he takes a **** ton of damage.
It's time we weigh the odds. Fox's pros vs his cons balance out almost to an even point, but there are other characters in this game that have a more favorable balance toward the pros.
Marth.
/discussion for the time being
Fox.
I think Fox should NOT be the first on the tier list.
Fox's Pros:
Fox has an extremely fast moveset, that has effectiveness in variable ways. Let's break it down to his air game, is ground game, his grab game, and his edgeguard game.
Air game: Virtually all 5 aerials are useful in some way. The least of which would be a forward air attack. The bair has good knockback and comboeability, and the frames at which it comes out is quite fast. The same can be said with the neutral air. His down air is a weak spike and could potentially be used as part of his edge game. His up air is easily considered a top choice for a kill move. Overall, his air game is quite effective on the offense if he should successfully hit and combo. Not to mention Fox's Shine can be added in this as a mixup, and you have a potential one hit stock should the opponent misread (a lot) and finds themselves off the stage in a manner of seconds.
Grab game: Fox has several chaingrabs, some of which include, but are not limited to: Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon. When I say "chaingrab" I mean that Fox can grab the opponent at LEAST 3 times in a row. I do not include "twice" because sometimes it's due to DI that people pull off second grabs. For example, Fox COULD grab/uthrow Ganon 3 times, but more often than not, Ganon is going to jump/move away/something else to avoid the third grab. Fox's dthrow is a potential tech read to usmash: not the most effective kill, but it works if a person gets the right read (and if we go by pure numbers and not the overall player's ability to read, the chances of reading a tech properly after a downthrow is 20%, as a downthrown person has 5 "realistic" options: roll left, roll right, get up with an attack, get up stationary, or sit there and wait to make an appropriate choice out of the above) Fthrow and Bthrow arn't as effective for doing too much with. Fthrow's range isn't really anything, thow it could be a surprise to the opponent if Fox throws them off the stage. Same can be said with the Bthrow.
Ground game: I'll be the first to admit that Fox's ground game is good. All 3 directional smash attacks are powerful and useful in some way. His fully charged upsmash is the most powerful in the game, allowing for kills easily in the 90%s (some less/more). It is a quick attack, and is usually the decisive kill of an opponent when they are on the ground/air (not off the edge normally). The dsmash is more often seen used as an edgeguard technique. I'll go more on that later. The fsmash, though used, is not practical to set up. However a fsmash could be setup, most commonly a usmash can be in there as well. Fox's dash attack is exceptional WHEN it connects (more on this later) because it can set up into utilts and then uairs from there (or usmashes, whatever you like). Fox's tilts, utilt, dtilt, ftilt (angled/nonangled) are useful in some manner (not so much the ftilt). Utilt is a surprisingly easy use for setting up comboes and kill moves such as uair/usmash. The dtilt causes the opponent to "pop" into the air. Another good setup into kill moves.
Edge game: Well let's face it. Fox has an option for almost every edge approach. If someone is coming from above, Fox simply needs to watch their point of approach and get in one good usmash, or, if the % is too low, hit them with a bair. If the opponent is going for a sweetspot, a simple ledgehog/shinespike works easily. If the opponent is coming from below but not looking for the sweetspot, fox can dair/dsmash/dtilt into a set other move (or the dsmash might just kill them at that point). All in all, Fox has an "answer" to most approaches......... if he can pull it off.
Sounds pretty good so far right? I mean, I think I just made it seem like Fox was by far, a top choice. And for years he really has become a top choice.
Time to rip Fox a new one.
Fox's Cons:
Here we go.
Character mathup. Everyone here would agree that Fox, on a high level of play, has no bad matchups. So where do we define high level of play? Do we put Fox as Silent Wolf? Mew2King? Hell, myself, since I have a technical management of him? What about Soft, who just went to a NFL tournament and butt ****ed almost half the players with Fox, and he plays Jiggs?
We don't. We don't judge Fox based on who controls the character. We NEED to judge Fox based off of what he is.... just a character.
"Don't Get Hit." "If the opponent is smarter, they will win." "I just beat Chaddd with Mewtwo LOL"
Those are quotes we see pretty often. The reason they even exist now is because SOMEONE out there, denied the current acceptable ideals. It is because noone manages to master a character to the point where they will always win. Quite frankly, it will never happen. Don't you dare say it IS happening, because I will shut you down so hard. In fact, let me shut that point down real quick:
Side story: Halo 3 MLG, STK (Shoot To Kill) was reigning champions for 8 years. They became Team 3D, and eventually Final Boss. Everyone thought they were unbeatable. Then a new generation of gamers flocked in (younger people, who have learned everything they needed to and more) and wiped them out. Case closed.
Back to Fox.
So far the tier list has been based heavily on tournament results and overall potential. However, when that potential crap came into discussion, people only looked at how well a character matched up against other characters that people thought were good. I can give you a list of characters that Fox actually has a little bit of trouble with. If you want explanations why, I'll give them. Just ask me to. This is also not a completed list of characters, because I'm a bit lazy right now (especially after typing all this ****)
Fox has some trouble with:
Samus
ICs
Young Link
Bowser of all things
Mewtwo of all things
Pikachu of all things
Marth is a given
Peach
Fox
Falco
Luigi
Pretty big list huh? If I wanted to, I could probably throw in a few more characters and give extremely good reasons as to why there is difficulty. But I will only do that apon request.
Does anyone see a trend in the characters I selected, and why I would suppose Fox has trouble with them?
Each character has the potential to beat Fox easily, if done right. This is where the argument is going to get a bit sketchy, and I am going to do my best to not be hypocrtical in my viewpoint.
If we look at all those characters, we can see that each one has a ton of things that Fox would run into trouble with. For example, Samus's amazing edgegame, Marth is a gimme, and if you don't know, you should stop reading this whole thread, Pikachu has comboeability on Fox whereas Fox doesn't get a luxury "that" easily on pikachu, Peach has chainthrows, stunning projectiles, a dsmash that can deal 50% and gives huge knockback depending on the setup, an easy edgegame against Fox's specific recovery due to how linear it is; Bowser actually has a MID ****ING AIR CHAINGRAB on Fox, as well as an easy tech chase game on him, and hard hitting moves.
Oh and a big point.
Fox's recovery is so linear, almost ANY character has a decisive way for dealing with it, if done properly. Seriously, if Fox is off that stage, there should be no problem destroying him, even if it would take a bit of time. As long as Fox isn't allowed a sweetspot, he can be stopped. Play and simple. If I have to explain it for a certain character, I will (but do note: I said ALMOST any of them, not ALL of them).
Now this is the point where someone might say "Well, if used properly, Fox won't get into that stuff."
I'll counter with "Well, if the OTHER characters were used properly, Fox COULD get into that stuff."
This is where you can't judge based on how well a top played character fairs against each other. We've been doing that for years, and it worked for a while, but it's time for a bit of change.
A character on top of the tier list, by definition, should be the best. When determining the best, ALL factors must be looked at, and not just how good one character does against another.It is true, Fox has a lot going for him. I never denied that, but Fox also has SO MUCH going against him, it is hard to say that the balance should tip in the favor of him being the best.
That's kind of like saying Chip should be top in Guilty Gear because he is fast, even though he takes a **** ton of damage.
It's time we weigh the odds. Fox's pros vs his cons balance out almost to an even point, but there are other characters in this game that have a more favorable balance toward the pros.
Marth.
/discussion for the time being
Oh yeah, i was talkin to alpha about this after you posted and forgot to come back at this.
First off, Samus's projectiles dont really mean anything to kirby. Unless She plans on doing alot of missle cancelling with homing missles, or unless she's magically going to have a chargeshot the whole time. I could be horribly wrong about this (which it really doesnt matter), but unless Samus has a Perfect MC Power Missle, she's not hitting kirby with a power missle. I tried myself when I was making my list of duckable moves, and I couldnt do it. (Not saying it's not possible, I just flat out could never get one THAT low).
Any aerial approach gets shut down by wavedash back. What makes you think Kirby is going to always approach with an aerial, more specifically always going to look to go into samus with an aerial? That's cookie cutter logic. Just because fox can nair rush doesnt mean kirby wants to even jump. You know this. If kirby really wants to jump in, SH Swallow is actually ridiculously good against wavedash u.tilt. Kirby's going to beat it every time unless he's retardedly late. WD is too big of a commitment by itself.
And then you say kirby can only get one hit on samus at a time like that's new. Doc can really only get 1 hit at a time on samus. Realistically, there are a few ways to chain a few hits (a very very few, mind you) on samus, it's just ridiculously situational. You can have that point.
__
Marth has to be close? Again, samus realistically has to be close. The real difference comes that once marth comes in to range, he literally shuts everything down kirby can do with a disjointed hitbox. As long as marth stays safe (f.air n.air dtilt), it doenst matter if kirby guesses right to get in, marth is just at disadvantage, not punishable.
Kirby HAS to resort to rolling in or CCing just to have a chance.
___
Im not trying to shut you down in saying "Samus isnt hard for Kirby." Oh hell na, it's not like that. It's just that Marth is more ridiculous for Kirby than Samus.
Samus's projectiles hold no real weight as long as kirby isnt ******** enough to stay in his least threatening and least mobile position.
#HBC | Gorf
toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
Gerbil, it feels like you're assuming that it takes no skill to play as Fox. He's not the MK of Melee. Just because I think he is the best, the only reason he'd lose in tournaments is because his opponent is better. Fox, even though he does have some difficulty with some characters, has in total no really bad matchups, where you'll need to switch to another character. The only reason that you think Fox isn't the best is because of Ken, and Chu, and Mango. Honestly, the only good Foxes I think are M2K and SilentWolf, and I'm a bit iffy on Wolf. But that being said, M2K or SilentWolf could've played as anyone and whooped ***.
What I'm trying to say is, if you get some kid who knows every advanced tech for each player, but has never played Melee and he sat down and played every character, he'd be the best with Fox, because Fox has the best metagame. In the end, Fox. And don't try to defend Marth, the only reason people can win with him is Ken.
What I'm trying to say is, if you get some kid who knows every advanced tech for each player, but has never played Melee and he sat down and played every character, he'd be the best with Fox, because Fox has the best metagame. In the end, Fox. And don't try to defend Marth, the only reason people can win with him is Ken.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
There are so many good foxes lol. Imo PC's fox at one point was the best.
The only reason people can win with marth is Ken? LOL
The only reason people can win with marth is Ken? LOL
Ummm, Gordito...this^^^^^ just made any credibility you have go out the window...
The Alpha Gundam
Smash Champion
Chillin
KDJ
PC
Tink
Keepspeedn
ColBol
Shiz
Eggz
those are a few of the successful Fox players you miss XD
KDJ
PC
Tink
Keepspeedn
ColBol
Shiz
Eggz
those are a few of the successful Fox players you miss XD
RockCrock
Smash Champion
*clears throat*
Blatt Blvd
Smash Ace
successful dk players:
rockcrock
rockcrock
#HBC | Gorf
toastin walrus since 4/20 maaaan
M2K and Wolf are the only people who I liked to watch. Anyone else made me go t(-_-). It was fun watching them. And what I mean is without Ken, noone would know how to play Marth...
The Alpha Gundam
Smash Champion
and how could i forget RockCrock XD
harriettheguy
Smash Lord
ohh yeaaa heaven is a place on earth
Finch
Smash Lord
@ Gerbil's really long post: I'm not sure there's any real credibility in saying that fox isn't the best character in the game or that he has trouble with any of those characters. ICs? Peach? Luigi??? I suppose a fox player who is not as good as their opponent can certainly get into trouble with and of those characters because he is easily comboed but he's got a pretty clear advantage against all of them. Can't he waveshine bowser off the stage and double shinespike him at any percent just by connecting once with a move that comes out in 1 frame?
Also he has a lot of options off stage. Not every character can just jump down and hit him while he's about to firefox like marth or sheik can. Covering all the options is just not possible for a lot of characters, and that's why they're lower on the tier list.
Also he has a lot of options off stage. Not every character can just jump down and hit him while he's about to firefox like marth or sheik can. Covering all the options is just not possible for a lot of characters, and that's why they're lower on the tier list.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz