Ganon

[actionblackbird]

my oppininon?

Top:
Fox
Marth
falco
shiek

high

Peach
Falcon
jigs

and...someone explain why IC should be on high tier? and on top of that, why after C. Falcon =P. I am pretty sure that falcon ***** IC...OH and yea I am staying with the tier list that we have now...because is legit <=P.

 

[Dorsey]

jiggs, ICs, peach, and falcon all have a near 60/40 advantage in their match-up vs ganon. why would he be included in this tier? Just because ganon's moves **** people that walk into them does not mean that he is top tier, imo. Although he's definitely better than doc and little bit better than samus.

 

[spider_sense]

jiggs, ICs, peach, and falcon all have a near 60/40 advantage in their match-up vs ganon. why would he be included in this tier? Just because ganon's moves **** people that walk into them does not mean that he is top tier, imo. Although he's definitely better than doc and little bit better than samus.

I actually agree that Ganon's EVEN matchups if not better ones are Samus and Doc.

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

I talked to dogy about this last night and he brought up a good point:
If were talking about Ganon's position on the tier list we need to look not just who's above him, but characters below him as well.

 

[Dorsey]

Yeah SS, I agree. I used samus and doc as a comparison because I think that they are his most comparable match-ups... although I do think it's in this order: ganon, samus, doc.

 

[exarch]

Ganon CGs the majority of the cast below him 0-death.

Ok, we looked at the characters below him... next?

 

[Dogysamich]

Ganon CGs the majority of the cast below him 0-death.

Ok, we looked at the characters below him... next?

Cant he chaingrab sheik 0-death?

I mean if you ask kage, he's gunna tell you sheik ganon is 50/50. You wanna believe him on that?

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

Ganon CGs the majority of the cast below him 0-death.

Ok, we looked at the characters below him... next?

ummm Ganon can also CG Sheik 0-death
I guess that means we should forget about sheik while were at it huh

 

[Dogysamich]

*looks up* f'ning shadows.

 

[Dorsey]

Getting 0-deathed or owned by ganon is usually do to ****ty di or mistakes by your opponent. Idk how many times I've caught someone by surprise by doing fair fair off-stage dair, or a fair uair off-stage wizard foot spike, taking a stock when the match only started 3 seconds earlier. That's obviously very avoidable though, lol. As far his 0-death cg-ing goes.... compare it to other characters cgs/o-d's... ganon's are harder to do..imo.

And i would love to get whatever kage is smoking if he thinks sheik/ganon is 50/50.

 

[exarch]

Except that Sheik can also CG Ganon 0-death... And has an easier time getting grabs and better combos than the other low tiers Ganon does it to.

HugS doesn't like using Samus against low tiers; instead he uses Ganon, because Ganon rocks the low tiers.

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

Except that Sheik can also CG Ganon 0-death... And has an easier time getting grabs and better combos than the other low tiers Ganon does it to.

HugS doesn't like using Samus against low tiers; instead he uses Ganon, because Ganon rocks the low tiers.

so ganon rocks the low tier.

Taken from the pikachu match up thread

Ganondorf: Biggish target. Generally easy to combo. The problem is getting around his aerials enough to start a combo. Easy to edge-guard. Also, can kill you in 3 hits. This fight is pretty much speed vs. power. NEVER trade hits in this fight if you can avoid it. 2-3 of pika's normal hits do about as much damage as one aerial from ganon. He's also got a bit of range on you, so watch out for that, and his aerials are bound to get through your shield if you rely on it. Learn the range and speed of his uair and bair, they can make some aerial approaches difficult. Comboing to uair, or hitting him off with nair and then edgeguarding are probably your best kill options, as it's moderately difficult to get in range for a usmash (which takes a decent % to kill him anyways). Dsmash is a viable edgeguard if they miss the sweetspot, as it'll pull them down and towards the stage, and at low percents it's untechable (to my knowledge). Annoy him with jolts if you're on a largeish stage. The name of the game is to not get hit.

I also seen enough Chad vs Ch@ddd to know this is close to even

I asked Iori on M2 vs Ganon and he feels that its 6:4 Ganon favor which is far from ****
Iori has played both Ch@ddd and Kage with M2 and beat both of them.

G&W vs Ganon is not **** either
according to Reflex you have a lot of things going for you:
The Lunch Rush (9:40:50 AM): Doable either way, really.
The Lunch Rush (9:40:58 AM): In a way, it's like Kirby vs. Ganon.
The Lunch Rush (9:41:20 AM): You can avoid Ganon as G&W, mostly because of your good movement (wavedash, etc.).
The Lunch Rush (9:41:25 AM): You're also short as hell.
The Lunch Rush (9:41:42 AM): You can edgeguard Ganon stupidly easy, and it's easy to juggle him.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:02 AM): Honestly, if the G&W was really good, probably 55-45 G&W.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:11 AM): Ganon can hit you HARD, obviously.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:26 AM): But you hit pretty hard too, and you can outmaneuver him.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:31 AM): Plus, you can actually recover.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:56 AM): He outranges you, but not by much.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:59 AM): Ganon eats B-Air, too

course this is just a sample but I'm sure Link and Kirby don't get slapped around by ganon either.

 

[SynikaL]

Thanks for the link, Exarch.

I was sort of kidding about the Sheik thing. I understand she's still solid, but honestly, I believe people only place her at the Top due to ancient stigmas that have followed her as a character.

I can't make any specific points; Xif actually makes a good point about me not being around, but...

Who's really been developing her as a character? Does anyone outside Drephen even main her anymore?

I've seen M2K's Sheik and it largely looks like Sheik circa 2006. I don't think anyone doesn't know how to fight Sheik. Not to say that doesn't make her potent, still, but I think people are pretty comfy fighting her today.

Meh, whatev.

-Kimo

 

[bladeofapollo]

G&W vs Ganon is not **** either
according to Reflex you have a lot of things going for you:
The Lunch Rush (9:40:50 AM): Doable either way, really.
The Lunch Rush (9:40:58 AM): In a way, it's like Kirby vs. Ganon.
The Lunch Rush (9:41:20 AM): You can avoid Ganon as G&W, mostly because of your good movement (wavedash, etc.).
The Lunch Rush (9:41:25 AM): You're also short as hell.
The Lunch Rush (9:41:42 AM): You can edgeguard Ganon stupidly easy, and it's easy to juggle him.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:02 AM): Honestly, if the G&W was really good, probably 55-45 G&W.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:11 AM): Ganon can hit you HARD, obviously.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:26 AM): But you hit pretty hard too, and you can outmaneuver him.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:31 AM): Plus, you can actually recover.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:56 AM): He outranges you, but not by much.
The Lunch Rush (9:46:59 AM): Ganon eats B-Air, too

The problem with most of this argument is that the same can be said about Ganon. Ganon's edge-guards are ridiculous, I don't think G&W's recovery is better than Ganon's at ALL, and G&W "eats B-air, too." Except on top of that, Ganon isn't the second lightest character in the game, has a REAL shield, and does tons more damage.

 

[Dogysamich]

Now you say you THINK G&W's recovery isnt as good or do you actually KNOW because you've played good g&w's in tourney? Because that's pretty much the main reason why any real tierlist/matchup discussion melee beyond the "elite 4 and friends" is bulls**t.

People straight up dont know about what they dont see, so they just assume what they know is straight trash. That's how it's ALWAYS been in this community and I dont know why. I mean really, look at all the "thinking" that's going around.

The ONLY reason people are giving characters like doc a chance now is people are seeing what HMW, 18s, and even me are doing. In the gap between bob$ switching to marth and now (literally now), doc has been "a s**tty character with absolutely no chance to ever win any matchup above him what so ever." Now people are seeing docs actually do stuff and it's like "oh wait, they're not trying to cookie cut a fox style like everybody tries with every character."

Same thing goes into the low tiers. Nobody really see a lowtier, so people just try to push off that "Everything I see flat out beats everything I dont see. Even if players on both sides (who know this matchup) agree that it is something like 6-4, i've never seen it myself so it's abysmally bad for the low tier." If you've noticed, every arguement for any low tier having a chance is "they get chaingrabbed to death." That's kinda what happens when you see scrubby low tiers. That's what happens when you see a scrubby fox. That's what happens when you see a good low tier. That's what happens when you see a good fox. That's how this game works.

___

I honestly cant figure out what everybody's big deal is with trying to partially revamp a tierlist and create 1/4th of a matchup chart.

Are we trying to actually keep MORE people from wanting to even give this 8 year old game a shot? Because that's all that's happening.

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

The problem with most of this argument is that the same can be said about Ganon. Ganon's edge-guards are ridiculous, I don't think G&W's recovery is better than Ganon's at ALL, and G&W "eats B-air, too." Except on top of that, Ganon isn't the second lightest character in the game, has a REAL shield, and does tons more damage.

G&W is small and mobile enough to get in and out of ganon's range
G&W's choice of defense would to move vs using normal shield plus he sill can lightshield which protects his whole body. I mean if he fully shields and gets **** for it why would you use it?
Ganon off map is silly as GW just has to pick the spot were his down B ends and Nair Fair or Bair to keep him out/kill him.
Not saying its in his favor, but he has more than enough options to contest with him

 

[exarch]

Actually I was more interested in the discussion.
Ganon does wreck most of the low tiers, but the majority of low tier players say it's a close-ish matchup.

"Well once you're inside *insert low tier character here* combos Ganon very well, and once he's off the stage you can edgeguard him very well too at pretty much any percent."

Ok great, but that can be said for EVERYONE IN THE GAME. ALL characters do that to ganon, regardless of tier. This is no specific advantage brought to the matchup by your one low tier. And you've glossed over a huge portion of Ganon's metagame: Don't let them inside, stay on the stage.

Foxes have been beaten by Ness and Roy and DK.
Derf beat M2K's Marth with Luigi several years ago, Ka-Master beat Forward's Sheik with Luigi at FCD. Marth and Sheik should never lose to Luigi.
Good Ganons have lost to low tiers, but that doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't.

If the Ganon knows how to exploit the matchup (and sometimes that takes a long time--Rockcrock's Ganon has only pretty recently begun exploiting the Ganon-Luigi matchup when he's been next to Derf and SheikSSBM for years) the Ganon has a HUGE advantage.

When I said "Ganon CGs the low tiers 0-death," I was trying to use the same excuse sheik players have to never address any of their low tier matchups; it's not where the metagame is focused. We don't agree (or even have close to a consensus) on the higher tiers right now, so why bring the low tiers into it at this point?

 

[Dogysamich]

We don't agree (or even have close to a consensus) on the higher tiers right now, so why bring the low tiers into it at this point?

2 reasons.

1) Because the game's been out for 8 years, if we cant figure out how to REALLY tier like, 8 or 9 characters at this time, something's wrong.

-SF4's been out for how long? And they've **** and all their matchups squared away. Same with SC4, where stages make a difference.

2) Some of the characters that people are arguing should be better (i.e. ganon and jiggs) have harder/difficult matchups against low tiers than the ones you're trying to replace.
-Like I've already said, the smash community has a bunch of weird notions. One being that the only factors that matter in a characters placement on the tierlist is the characters above them.
-My point is that if you ask people who actually know the matchups (and yes, not the ones who give you the general "low tier" answer), you're still going to find alot of matchups being close or even. More than you think. If you want to move a character up the tierlist, should he be doing stuff to make his matchups better?

___

And by saying they shouldnt win, you're saying that the matchup is 10-0. There's absolutely no way that the lower tier character, even if they do everything THEY need to right, can win a match against a higher tier (ganon)?

As wack as I know melee is, I have a hard time believing the game is THAT bad.

 

[SynikaL]

Why is it that people are so quick to call the Smash community "queer" if its methods or benchmarks don't conform to the GFC?

You do realize how unconventional this game is in comparison, right?

-Syn

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

I just pointed out their good points and what they have going for them, and I'm aware of what ganon is suppose to do in most of his matchups. I even said that while those matchups are in Dorf's favor they still can contend and beat him. I don't think Dorf has a HUGE advantage over the ones i mention so far unless you think 6:4 and 7:3 matchups are unwinnable.
what does this have to do with the current topic

TOP
Falco


Then you have Falco.

Falco competes with the top 3 but loses to characters a tier lower than him(Peach,Jiggs,ICs)

doodah makes a good point in that its not so much that Falco cant compete with who's above him but it's whats below him that gives him problems and why *in his argument* falco should not be with the other 3 on the ranking list.
why is this any different then what i been stressing?

 

[NES n00b]

Is it just me or is Ganon becoming a little overrated now a days? What has changed about his game to make more matchups in his favor that actually warrant him being higher on the tier list?

Edit: Let's be honest Synikal, some of the smash community's mindset is queer.

 

[SynikaL]

I agree, but it's the nature of the game that attracts those minds. That's my point.

-Kimo

 

[Dogysamich]

Why is it that people are so quick to call the Smash community "queer" if its methods or benchmarks don't conform to the GFC?

You do realize how unconventional this game is in comparison, right?

-Syn

Edit: Let's be honest Synikal, some of the smash community's mindset is queer.

This

But if you really want to look at it like that; again, what's the point of doing all this? For people in the future? Nobody wants to get into this with that logic.

1) "We're too different from every other fighting game."
2) "our game is so advanced and technical that you'll be playing catchup for the rest of the time."
3) "The character you want to play is so bad there's no point in even trying."

Now seriously, why would ANYBODY want to get into a game with those 3 "facts" lingering around?

__

And beyond that, I have to ask you syn; do you actually know how similar smash is to other fighting games?

I mean the onlY REAL difference is platforms, and that difference only stands if we're talking about actual tourney viable games. (Because I could compare platforms to the nonsense of GGIsuka)

But really, smash has this notion that "hey, because we turn around 'whenever we want', we have edgeguarding, and we move really fast; we're sooo different than everybody else."

Turning around = back turn stance in any 3-d fighter. Realistically all turning around in smash is is a stance in ANY fighter, period. Gives you access to new moves, takes away some. Movement included (because nobody can RUN backwards in melee)

Edgeguarding? I mean I could take the easy route and compare that to ringouts in other games (not just 3d, cause there are some 2-d fighters with ringouts, lol), but how bout we think of it like this.
-A lifebar in smash = stocks, NOT %. It doesnt matter what your % is, you cant lose until you lose all 4 stocks.
-Since you can lose a stock with 1 hit (literally), that means that bare minimum, you need 4 good reads.
-For that to "realistically" happen, you'd have to just catch somebody by the edge 4 times. (... just go with me on this, I know you have to be a new level of ******** for this to happen).

So if you get to do a ****ton of damage to somebody's life for making a good read, what's that called? THE OKIZEME/WAKEUP PHASE! -applause- Yes, realistically, edgeguarding is just a variation of the age old okizeme/wakeup stage of a fight, where one character is at a significant advantage, and one's at a significant disadvantage.

If you think "well 4 is still a relatively low number compared to other games"

a: Makoto only needs 3 good reads to win a round in 3s -command grab- (followed by combos)
b: a MSP only needs 3 good reads to win a round -guard break- (MvC2)
c: In Tekken, (stage/position dependant) you only need 1 good read to win a round -launcher combo- (i've seen this live myself at FRXII)
d: You only need to land your IK once to win a round in GGAC -move dependant-
e: C3B only has to hit once to win on half the stages in SC4 (for Hilde.)

__

So what are you going to argue with that? "We're not standing on a stage so we're different"? All that really happens in smash is that the process of getting mixed up and beat to death normally gets replaced by getting pushed off the stage.

And Speed: Or "Freedom of Movement" as the constantly tries to call it.
I've already shut this arguement down once, it's not real hard to do

And heck, since we're on the topic of ganon, go ask chaddd what he thinks of platform dashing, wavelanding, and all of the "super special movement smash has that no other fighting game has" (which is a wrong notion, mind you)

He's gunna tell you "who cares when people like to commitment movements into my zone?"

___

edit, i left some stuff out cause im ********, but I should have added it anyway.

Cause I mean, if you want to talk about what's REALLY different about smash, what you'll wind up listing is a bunch of stuff that leads to reasons why alot of people dont like it.

i.e.

a large amount of random factors
lack of mixup variety
a random/variable blocking system

 

[PB&J]

one thing i have to say is marth higher than shiek..i like the old tier list with eception of icy's being high tier and puff right below them

some people think fox than jiggs

but we are changing puff because person a beat person b one day but what aboutht he other days..

i really think peach should say fifth but starting to think about it''
it all comes down to popularity and tournies..

making a tier list has to have so many variables in it and most people change the list because of there match with so n so r this person ***** this persaon with this character..idk


fox shiek and falco or top three..team broken

 

[Dogysamich]

I agree, but it's the nature of the game that attracts those minds. That's my point.

-Kimo

I know what you're getting at, cause I'm assuming that's not meant solely for me.

But you're throwing it at me like I havent been around here for a while and like I dont know better.

 

[SynikaL]

*sigh*

Dogy, no offense, but that entire post was pointless. You took one line and followed a very broad interpretation of where you assumed I stood in relation to Melee and other fighters.

My overall point is simply that relative to other fighting games, Smash is invariably unconventional at the surface level. That is what attracts a large portion of the community to it. Labeling them queer is pointless and elitist. The Smash crowd tends to be pretty unfamiliar to anything competitive outside Smash. Not that these discussions shouldn't take place among those that know better.

It's clear in the development of Melee, Sakurai cribbed plenty of conventions from more traditional fighters and that's where a large portion of its substantial depth comes from.

I have to admit, though, skimming through your post some of your arguments against Melee's non-conventionality seem quite tenuous and silly.

I don't have time to give this a proper response now.

-Kimo
(gym calls)

 

[Dogysamich]

My overall point is simply that relative to other fighting games, Smash is invariably unconventional at the surface level. That is what attracts a large portion of the community to it. Labeling them queer is pointless and elitist. The Smash crowd tends to be pretty unfamiliar to anything competitive outside Smash. Not that these discussions shouldn't take place among those that know better.

It's clear in the development of Melee, Sakurai cribbed plenty of conventions from more traditional fighters and that's where a large portion of its substantial depth comes from.

I have to admit, though, skimming through your post some of your arguments against Melee's non-conventionality seem quite tenuous and silly.

I don't have time to give this a proper response now.

-Kimo
(gym calls)

First and foremost, im not upset or offended by you not wanting to read of all that. I tend to make retardedly long post and I know that. Heck, I dont even like going back and reading half of my own stuff.

__

As for calling stuff in smash "queer", i cant find anywhere where I called it gay or anything like that (again I didnt take a real hard look).

Dumb and nonsense? Yeah. But seriously, that can be said about ANY game. That's why there isnt one "perfect game." Seriously, it's easy to find something dumb in a large majority of games, and all of them would be different.

__

But yeah, I'm not offended at all. It's a discussion and that's what happen, sometimes you just dont agree. Nothin to get bent over.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

so kye is too lazy to post a pic but not too lazy to go wrestle bears and bench press people?

also, LOL @ kye saying thats a peach made tier list, LOL.

TOP RIDICULOUS TIER
Fox
fox
marth
fox
fox
fox
young link

mid tier:
everyone else

BOTTOM tier:
peach

 

[exarch]

so kye is too lazy to post a pic but not too lazy to go wrestle bears and bench press people?

also, LOL @ kye saying thats a peach made tier list, LOL.

TOP RIDICULOUS TIER
Fox
fox
marth
fox
fox
fox
young link

mid tier:
everyone else

BOTTOM tier:
peach

Finally! Someone who has it right!

----------------------

But really, what about Fox and Roy, G&W, and DK?
Marth and Ganon, Link (and Yoshi)?
Sheik and Mario, Mewtwo and Kirby?
Falco and Luigi?

All top tiers have matchups which are closer but we ignore most of them.

 

[bladeofapollo]

also, LOL @ kye saying thats a peach made tier list, LOL.

TOP RIDICULOUS TIER
Fox
fox
marth
fox
fox
fox
young link

mid tier:
everyone else

BOTTOM tier:
peach

Nice try, but most Peaches don't think Young Link is a hard match-up.

Sheik and Mewtwo/Kirby?

All top tiers have matchups which are closer but we ignore most of them.

Wait, what?

 

[SynikaL]

I injected the term "queer" into the conversation without disparaging homosexual connotations.

I simply meant it in the sense of "strange" or "off-kilter".

-Kimo

 

[Dogysamich]

Aight, it's official. Fox is 2nd best in the game.

Master hand's #1

Im gunna go win Genesis real quick, brb.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Nice try, but most Peaches don't think Young Link is a hard match-up.

lol, did i offend you only on that point, lol?

 

[GodMeowMix]

Aight, it's official. Fox is 2nd best in the game.

Master hand's #1

Im gunna go win Genesis real quick, brb.

Can you L Cancel with Master Hand?

 

[Dogysamich]

Wait, what?

Yeah.

Sheik doesnt annhilate either one of those 2.

Frickin Iori goes usually goes to every tourney with the goal of beating every sheik main in atleast a mm. Unless im mistaken, he beat tope at TO4.

As for kirby, sheik is actually one of kirby's better matchups (as in, kirby doesnt get annhilated as bad by sheik).

-she cant chaingrab him
-hell, as long as he's crouching she cant even grab him
-this doesnt get nulled by runup d.smsah, because kirby's d.tilt is longer than everything except sheik's b.air.
-Kirby can duck sheik needles (all 5 of them, doesnt have to be Duck on Reaction)

Again, the match isnt in kirby's favor by any stretch of the imaginataion, but it's a hell of alot better than, oh say, doc vs kirby. (I come off as bias but I'm actually serious about this. I know alot of kirby matchups)

I injected the term "queer" into the conversation without disparaging homosexual connotations.

I simply meant it in the sense of "strange" or "off-kilter".

-Kimo

-nods in agreement-
I dunno, I guess I just caught my attention for some reason. I guess I need to go check my sexual preference again.

*rams head into wall*

Ok im straight. :D

Can you L Cancel with Master Hand?

Why the hell would you L cancel when Master Hand is so broke he uses L as an attack?

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Master hand breaks melee, we need to ban him before this gets outta hand.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Aight, it's official. Fox is 2nd best in the game.

Master hand's #1

Im gunna go win Genesis real quick, brb.

My mind....blown...Just thought I'd let you all know

Master hand breaks melee, we need to ban him before this gets outta hand.

outta....HAND....I get it

 

[Blatt Blvd]

lol

honestly, I didnt even realize that shix

 

[PB&J]

master hand songet ****..did u see the mario glith with him..so fun and dogy..go to genesis some how..we will all be on the same flight..right now we have 10 people going on the same plane we all meet up in atl airport...me chops,shiz,hboz,colbol,frames,f-zero,linguini,dashdancedan,and everlasting yay

all on one plane

 

[Life After Death]

so that means im goign to tampa? or is the ft lauderdale plane stopping at tampa to pick u *****s up?