Gea
Smash Master
There is this great thing called lightshielding.
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Q&A Game and Watch Q&A Thread
- Thread starter LiteralGrill
- Start date
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Too bad you don't get any shieldgrabbing out of it, especially since some (all) of G&W's best combos come off of throws.
Still, don't mistake my post for saying not to shield. I'm simply saying that, in Melee, G&W should not find himself in shield even remotely close to as much as he's allowed to shield in Brawl. Even with lightshielding, G&W gets messed up hard from shield pressure due to horrible OoS options. His rolls are utter crap, his aerials are laggy, and his upB is unsafe unless there are platforms around. In Brawl, not only does G&W have a workable shield, all of his aerials but one border on lagless (and are easily AC'd) and have very nice landing hits and/or interesting benefits (windboxes, anyone?), and his upB can be pretty much spammed since he gets to float with a parachute and act with anything that's not another upB or a jump out of it. He can pretty much get away with upB > dair > upB > dair because the dair makes him fall really fast and is really safe. In Melee, G&W requires some real brains to play. He's practically brain-dead at mid-level in Brawl.
/BrawlG&WSecondary
Still, don't mistake my post for saying not to shield. I'm simply saying that, in Melee, G&W should not find himself in shield even remotely close to as much as he's allowed to shield in Brawl. Even with lightshielding, G&W gets messed up hard from shield pressure due to horrible OoS options. His rolls are utter crap, his aerials are laggy, and his upB is unsafe unless there are platforms around. In Brawl, not only does G&W have a workable shield, all of his aerials but one border on lagless (and are easily AC'd) and have very nice landing hits and/or interesting benefits (windboxes, anyone?), and his upB can be pretty much spammed since he gets to float with a parachute and act with anything that's not another upB or a jump out of it. He can pretty much get away with upB > dair > upB > dair because the dair makes him fall really fast and is really safe. In Melee, G&W requires some real brains to play. He's practically brain-dead at mid-level in Brawl.
/BrawlG&WSecondary
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
G&W with a shield, more weight, and l-cancel on all his aerials is probably mid tier.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
A shield and universal L-cancel ability are basic Smash rights. More weight would make him not G&W, though. 
bubbaking
Smash Hero
If G&W had better OoS options, like a better roll, and also a much better techroll, I think he would be at least mid-tier.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Being forced to WD OoS all the time makes you uber predictable. It's not that it's a bad option; it's just that if it's your only viable option, it will be covered and punished all the time. I'm pretty sure the heart of G&W's biggest problems are with shield pressure more than the shield itself.
Oracle
Smash Master
He has a one frame shoryu to use OOS, which has no lag when you land
If you land before your freefall animation begins then you have a ton of lag. Which you will experience a lot because landing on the top platform is ideal (where this lag occurs). If you land on a side platform then they should have enough time to recover and attack you.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Yeah, upB OoS is definitely not something I would list as one of his good options OoS. It has 'meh' KB and the hitbox also isn't that great. Besides, with platforms, you'll experience lag (as J00t detailed above), and without platforms, it's not safe. Also, that move is definitely NOT a "Shoryu". It has no invincibility at any point.
Oracle
Smash Master
Learn to edge cancel? You should be doing that with g&w anyways lol
Are you sure? i don't have a copy of melee to test but I feel like most top platforms are low enough to where he can not fastfall
Are you sure? i don't have a copy of melee to test but I feel like most top platforms are low enough to where he can not fastfall
As G&W you don't really get to choose where you are on the bottom platform considering your shield is so ****ty anyways. You're making it out to be a lot easier than it actually is.
The best thing to do is to just avoid using your shield as much as possible. Lightshielding doesn't solve anything, it saves you from taking damage but the shieldstun is too much and it prevents you from putting yourself in a better position.
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
I'm gonna start abusing Up-B OOS, it's hitbox is bigger then shine, and shine is not invincible on the frame that it hits, and it punishes everything OOS. If you get a Fox to like 35% it is now a viable move to use WHENEVER he hits your shield, I'm pretty sure Peaches aerials on shield are even punishable. And, it cancels lag on top platforms so if you stay near the top platform it will not be punished. plus, fast fallers you can up B them, cancel on top plaform, and then tech chase
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Gdub's upB isn't invincible, though...
whereas the spacees' shine is:Fire
Total: 39
Hit: 1-37
Landlag: 40
Landfallspeciallag: 6
Shine
Total: 39 (or more)
Hits: 1
Reflects: 4-21 or release+1
Jump cancelable whenever it reflects
Lag upon release: 19
Reflection lag: 19
It is invincible, its just really hard to see and it moves past fast
Frame 1:
Fox's body is blue, which means invincible
Gimr, if there is ever a time when you use your shield and don't get stabbed out of it, then I would like to know.
Seriously though, It can be good if you're below the top platform and you get forced into your shield. It's going to happen eventually. I just wouldn't want to rely on it.
Seriously though, It can be good if you're below the top platform and you get forced into your shield. It's going to happen eventually. I just wouldn't want to rely on it.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Hi! :D
I'm a Sheik main and I used to be another player trying to be the best ever, but with a mix of it being way harder than anything I've ever done in my life and being busy with taking University seriously, I've kind of given that up, lol.
I've been playing with all sorts of characters since I've mostly just been playing for fun, but G&W seems super fun to me! I like his flow and moves, and for some reason, I love his wavedash. I don't know, but his movement feels a lot like Sheik to me.
Anyway, I have to ask since G&W is abysmally low on the tier list and I don't know too much about the character, is he fun to combo with and such, does he really stand any chance against the best characters, and would I be wasting my time developing a G&W? Mind you, I mostly do play for fun at this point, but I still want to be capable of actually playing the game, lol, instead of just being a punching bag. I also live in BC, which is full of good Falcos, and apparently it's a terrible match-up for him?
I'm a Sheik main and I used to be another player trying to be the best ever, but with a mix of it being way harder than anything I've ever done in my life and being busy with taking University seriously, I've kind of given that up, lol.
I've been playing with all sorts of characters since I've mostly just been playing for fun, but G&W seems super fun to me! I like his flow and moves, and for some reason, I love his wavedash. I don't know, but his movement feels a lot like Sheik to me.
Anyway, I have to ask since G&W is abysmally low on the tier list and I don't know too much about the character, is he fun to combo with and such, does he really stand any chance against the best characters, and would I be wasting my time developing a G&W? Mind you, I mostly do play for fun at this point, but I still want to be capable of actually playing the game, lol, instead of just being a punching bag. I also live in BC, which is full of good Falcos, and apparently it's a terrible match-up for him?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
It's no surprise that you like G&W's mobility. Mobility is one of his best traits. His WDs and WLs are top-notch, and his slipperiness makes his edge-cancelling really good as well.
G&W is pretty fun to combo with, especially on FFers, but I'm afraid to say that, aside from Jiggs, he's pretty much screwed by all of Top Tier. I mean, if you're playing for fun, no time is ever wasted on developing a character, but I wouldn't expect any success with him in tournament for a long time.
G&W is pretty fun to combo with, especially on FFers, but I'm afraid to say that, aside from Jiggs, he's pretty much screwed by all of Top Tier. I mean, if you're playing for fun, no time is ever wasted on developing a character, but I wouldn't expect any success with him in tournament for a long time.
Oracle
Smash Master
G&W is super frustrating since he's basically the perfect weight/floatiness for everyone to combo him to death, but his combos and such are really rewarding.
Falco is a terrible matchup, which is what happens when you pit the character with the best shield pressure in the game against a character with no shield
Falco is a terrible matchup, which is what happens when you pit the character with the best shield pressure in the game against a character with no shield
bubbaking
Smash Hero
And bad OoS options. His roll and spot-dodge are garbage and his aerials are mediocre at relieving pressure.
ZaXXoR
Smash Journeyman
G&W can do well if your facing ppl who don't know his assets, but honesatly Try Project M G&W I'm in love with it... *LOOKS AT QERB INTENSELY
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I don't like him too much. That change to his dthrow is really annoying...
1000000000000000000 times this.I don't like him too much. That change to his dthrow is really annoying...
bubbaking
Smash Hero
You should go up to the PMBR and tell them this. As one of the best G&W players around, I'm sure they'd at least consider your request.
Honestly I don't care enough about P:M to ask such a thing. :x
Sad days.
I think uthrow is more like Dthrow now.
I think uthrow is more like Dthrow now.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Which means he can't CG/combo spacees as well as he used to anymore? I'm sorry but no matter which way you cut it, there's always going to be something majorly wrong with that vBrawl dthrow. Certain PMBR members have told me that it's meant to be able to lead into DACUS TC's for early kills, but that's kinda limiting, not to mention that the TC is mostly guesswork and G&W's DACUS in particular is extremely difficult to pull off consistently.
I'm not a fan...
I'm sorry but no matter which way you cut it, there's always going to be something majorly wrong with that vBrawl dthrow. Certain PMBR members have told me that it's meant to be able to lead into DACUS TC's for early kills, but that's kinda limiting, not to mention that the TC is mostly guesswork and G&W's DACUS in particular is extremely difficult to pull off consistently.I'm not a fan...
In high level play "predictions" are more often than not actually reactions. It is -really- hard to react G&W's dthrow into any move in P:M.Which means he can't CG/combo spacees as well as he used to anymore?
I'm not a fan...
Give me Melee d-throw or give me death
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
I've been complaining to PMBR about G&W dthrow since demo 1.0, they have brawl G&W players who want dthrow so they aren't going to change it =/
bubbaking
Smash Hero
That's dumb. In vBrawl, G&W had brain-dead dthrow > dsmash pseudo-combos on people, among a whole bunch of other things. These things don't work as well/aren't as rewarding in P:M.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
The simple truth. I can't get enough of Ivysaur. Pokemon all the way for me! ^_^
QERB
Banned via Warnings
Thanks!
I did use the d-air a lot in teams against javi and aza, mostly because they played really aggressive (especially javi with his u-airs). A lot of the time they would just run into them and then I could regain position. I don't normally use that many d-airs though. It was working so I kept using it lol.
Also if you full-jump the d-air you can auto-cancel it, which is a pretty neat trick (phenom's trick), and can be free shield pressure against a lot of characters.
I really like the d-air, but it's really difficult to space if you're planning on approaching with it, since you can easily get grabbed out of d-air assuming your opponent knows that it has 2 hits. If your opponent doesn't know this (which happens to be the case surprisingly often) and releases shield after first hit, then you're fine. When I approach with d-air, i usually try to land on the back side of my opponent to avoid getting shield-grabbed/shined oos'd/etc
Also it's a really good edge-guard against most chars. Although it doesn't have much horizontal knock-back, it has pretty dam good range and stays out for a while, making it a really safe edge-guarding choice.
Overall, I wouldn't say it's as good of an approach or spamming move as f-air, but it definitely helps to mix it up and use as combo-starters.
hey qerb/other people,
what would you say is the safest approach? fair has gotten me punished a lot, esp. by fox? it seems sometimes like a properly timed nair could give me frame advantage to wavedash back or dtilt or jab, but idk if its legit or a fluke. dair also seems to be semi-safe on shield. essentially, can anyone give me the frame advantage/disadvantage for this guys approaches?
what would you say is the safest approach? fair has gotten me punished a lot, esp. by fox? it seems sometimes like a properly timed nair could give me frame advantage to wavedash back or dtilt or jab, but idk if its legit or a fluke. dair also seems to be semi-safe on shield. essentially, can anyone give me the frame advantage/disadvantage for this guys approaches?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
If you're looking for safe approaches, fair is definitely NOT one of them, especially against Fox, much less a Fox who is DDing and waiting for you to create an opening for him to come in and destroy you. Going by what I've learned about this character from all the prominent G&W mains, his safest moves at neutral (and the only moves Gdubs should really be using in said situation to avoid getting hit) are jab and dtilt. Dair seems like it's fairly decent, but the move's hitbox isn't very good for horizontal spacing and the grounded hitbox can only do so much before the opponent catches on and punishes it. In fact, on the subject of jank, everything else depends on the opponent either running into the move blindly or not knowing/being familiar with certain properties of those moves. Fair is too laggy, nair has too much startup (and can't be L-cancelled, so too much lag as well), one can't approach with uair, and bair can't be L-cancelled. Ftilt lasts a while but it's too laggy and utilt has ZERO COOLDOWN but the hitboxes.....
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Question: why is G&W ranked so low? His movement and options seem at least better than Roy's. He's got speed, priority, edgeguards, and KO moves.
He seems like a solid character that dies too quickly.
He seems like a solid character that dies too quickly.
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
Roy should be lower on the list. G&W should probably be a little higher, but there's almost nobody that plays him. his shield is awful, recovery fairly easily gimpable. he should be in the low tier, just a couple slots up from where he is now TBH
Veggiez
Smash Apprentice
Quick question: About Nair, how useful is it for any purpose other than KOing? For example, woul you ever use it to combo an opponent high in the air for damage or ledgehop Nair to get on stage?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Its startup is really too great for it to be too safe of a ledgehop option, and G&W's inability to L-cancel it makes it even less safe. It's pretty good for comboing, though.