Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Divinokage]

Any stage you feel like you can out play the other person on. There are no 'gimmees' in this game. You gotta work for your wins, especially if you're up against a better player.

Oh ya, everything changes.. there is never a garantee that you will win a match before it happens.. but I mean you would still try to use the best possible tool you can use for a given situation... I'd say small stages with platforms should be Fox advantage, in general... or at least that's how I would approach that matchup.

To me when you don't expect anything to happen but rather you try to adapt instead of what's happening then your chances to win is much greater. However, you have to be careful of not falling into the opponent's pace either so ya.. more adapting to do! =P

 

[unknown522]

just to clarify, i was talkin about when theyre coming towards the ledge from above the ledge. ftilt wouldnt be one of my first choices if they were comin from below.

damn, this thread is the spot Lol

f-smash is better. Though there are still better choices.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dash attack can cover the edge in certain spacings

 

[Divinokage]

OH ya also, what I hate with Ganon when I recover with my super Up+B.. instead of getting shined when im off-stage at 110%+.. I get up-smashed and die, how gay is that? haha. There's absolutely no room to tech and it covers pretty much everywhere Ganon can go even if I decide to go low, you can still do it. Up-smash hitbox ftw?

 

[unknown522]

insufficient range.

assuming they do the angles right. If they angle wrong, then everything works.

Also yeah, edgeguarding ganon is really gay. I like hitting fully charged f-smashes on ganon. Just feels so right.


edit - @ lovage: Raynex is playing with peterX right now.

Some of the combos going down is too funny.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

ohh ****, peterX in this *****, has he improved alot since those videos with him n raynex years ago?

also lovages sig makes me LOOOOOL. especially picturing s2j say it

 

[KirbyKaze]

just to clarify, i was talkin about when theyre coming towards the ledge from above the ledge. ftilt wouldnt be one of my first choices if they were comin from below.

damn, this thread is the spot Lol

I like Bair more in that situation. But I will concede F-tilt can **** there.

 

[ChivalRuse]

well, there's a couple, i mean like fox on yoshi's provides alot more for him against floaties, most ban it for that 'gimmeee' reason

but for shiek it's really not about that, since not alot of stage things are involved in this matchup,

so basically it comes down to whether you like playing against shiek in a tightened area with less room to move, but quicker kills, or 'generally' take longer on kills but you have more room to get hits in without trading a **** ton of percent.

Sheik is better on Yoshi's against Fox than on, say, FD. Yes.

 

[unknown522]

ohh ****, peterX in this *****, has he improved alot since those videos with him n raynex years ago?

also lovages sig makes me LOOOOOL. especially picturing s2j say it

he's sligtly better than before, but we haven't seen him in over a year.

 

[CanISmash]

I always thought taking sheik to fd and getting rid of platforms was good. lool this vid only had 300 views thought it was more popular but I always liked watching this match but I guess this is just spams playstyle rather than a good strategy to camp sheik. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOZiCvkyiew

 

[unknown522]

I always thought taking sheik to fd and getting rid of platforms was good. lool this vid only had 300 views thought it was more popular but I always liked watching this match but I guess this is just spams playstyle rather than a good strategy to camp sheik. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOZiCvkyiew

ehh *shakes hand side to side*

 

[ArcNatural]

so what do you guys think of DROP FROM LEDGE SHINE TURNAROUND DJ WAVELAND UPTILT

legit

I wanna see a video/gif of this done frame perfectly. I bet it's terrifyingly fast.

Lucky has done this in tournament I believe, it may have been in friendlies at ROM.

 

[Silent Wolf]

I like Bair more in that situation. But I will concede F-tilt can **** there.

yea i pretty much always get on the ledge and do a low auto canceled bair to cover the low option and react to the high option with either a dsmash or bair depending on where they end up. ftilt is just a possibility. i only said somethin cuz someone said it didnt work for them, and i remember it never working for me until i started doing it way earlier.

 

[ChivalRuse]

At Apex I had the opportunity to play more IC players that I ever had before. You, Wobbles, Trail, Kyu Puff, etc. I started fsmashing the ledgedashes as an answer to them, and it always worked.

I called KK a few minutes ago to set up a smashfest, and asked him if it was 100% invincible, and he said he'd ask Fly Amanita about it. It's probably true that ICs can ledgedash and shield before you hit them, but their invincibility does not last long enough to cover moves. It could be that all the ICs I faced either tried to grab, dsmash, jab, or aerial and got hit.

EDIT: IC have 11 frames of invincibility. That's more than Sheik. WHAT THE ****

Dat frame data.

 

[Sinji]

Is waveshine>Nair>grab a good combo against Marth? any advice?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Skip the middleman.

Shine --> WD --> JC grab

Nair is okay at the edge sometimes at medium-high percents and if they're not holding down (away or w/e) then you can sometimes get a better combo with it than you would with grab. But Nair --> grab is generally superfluous.

I always thought taking sheik to fd and getting rid of platforms was good. lool this vid only had 300 views thought it was more popular but I always liked watching this match but I guess this is just spams playstyle rather than a good strategy to camp sheik. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOZiCvkyiew

Camping Sheik like that is a terrible idea. Camping her is okay, but that method is... awful.

 

[FoxLisk]

if i'm playing a marth that doesn't CC, i will shine nair and then do more shine or more nairs in whatever combination seems to fit the situation. it's super fun but, no, it's not a combo at all, and if you want to win you should just grab.

also for anyone who has forgotten: bthrow nair usmash on marth ***** if they suck. also fun to do to scrubs, thanks to raynex (unknown? i forget ><)

 

[JPOBS]

can marth cc the nair out of the shine stun?

i thought for some reason, that because he shine was un cc'able, the move immediately following the shine can't be cc as well...

 

[TemPesT-]

can marth cc the nair out of the shine stun?

i thought for some reason, that because he shine was un cc'able, the move immediately following the shine can't be cc as well...

if shines can't be cc'd how come fox and falco can get shined and stay standing up when they CC?

it might reduce the lag like a real CC would, but it still kinda is a CC isn't it?

 

[Palpi]

im pretty sure you can CC shine.

I cant tell you how many times im accidently DI'd down and got hit by falcos shine, but i teched in place rather then getting shined up.

 

[JPOBS]

Yea my bad, I know about the reduced knockback/stun for standies and i know fallies can continue to stand if they are crouching pre-shine, I don't know what the technical jargon for that is tho. I guess it is kinda like a CC essentially.

but im pretty sure that in both cases the opponent has to be literally crouching before the shine. I don't think the asdi-down pseudo-cc mid-hit works on the shine.

 

[EWC]

Wow do people really still not understand how crouch canceling works? I swear either this or some similar question comes up like every ten pages.

To answer the original question: Yes, marth can still CC the nair as long as he's at low %'s.

 

[Brookman]

Marth can CC nair up to like 60% dude. IF NOT HIGHER vs. WEAK NAIR/BAIR/DASH/

 

[ViciousEnd]

Shine wavedash to nair doesn't even seem that rewarding given the plethora of other options you have available (dash jc shine, dash jc upsmash, dash dash attack, dash jc grab). Those follow ups all have better follow ups too. The only nice thing about the nair if you can actually get it is that it provides immediate knockback.

 

[ArcNatural]

I'm not sure if it's CC or just ASDI down. Or however it's different when you say do a Fsmash and CC grab from that rather than pure CCing then grabbing.

I know that shine wavedash shffl nair can true combo Marth, so I'm not sure if he can do the true CC on the nair. I know he can CC the shine and make it so he doesn't go very far, but that only makes hitting the nair easier.

I don't know if CCing the shine lets you get out of the true combo of shine wavedash shffl nair.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's not a true CC (it's ASDI down) but it will prevent combos at lower percents (and possibly kill you) and Marth can often ground himself at the mid percents, which opens him up to ground techs, edgecancels (depending on DI / platforms / positioning), and other nonsense. While it is true you can react and counter these, it probably would have been better if you just grabbed him.

edit:

You guys need this.

CROUCH CANCEL:

True CC involves crouching. You cannot crouch while you are in stun. Therefore, if you Drillshine Nair someone, they do not get a true CC. True CC prevents knockdown, knockback, launch, whatever for much longer than...

ASDI DOWN:

ASDI down is commonly (incorrectly) referred to as CC. It is not CC. It is fake CC. It has the same effects of CC but because you're not crouching, the effects are watered down. Don't ask why; I don't know. It can still prevent things from launching, reduce KB, and other stuff but it does it less potently than true CC. If you are in stun (by Shine or whatever) they can ASDI down.



If you do not believe there is a difference...

1) You're ********.

2) Easy way to test:

Requires: 2 controllers, gamecube / wii, SSBM, Jigglypuff unlocked

a. Open 2 players. Be Fox. Have other player be Puff.
b. Have Puff whiff Rest at 0. Hold down.
c. Semi-charge an U-smash.

It knocks her down.

Now, just calibrate the stick so she's in permanent crouch (unplug, hold stick up, plug in while holding up).

a. Kill Fox so your U-smash is fresh again.
b. Semi-charge U-smash the ducking Puff.

It doesn't knock her down. She just sits there.

Thus we can conclude there is reduced KB reduction from just holding down when you're not crouching. Why does this work this way? I don't know, but that's just how it is.

 

[ArcNatural]

Yeah I was going to edit that it's still much simpler and safer to just grab/upsmash him. But just wanted to make make it perfectly clear what was going on.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

falcon ***** my fox. i can't seem to get in easy enough, am i not baiting enough? i know it's hard to give advice without watching, but i just need more general falcon help. i can **** the same falcons with my falco that 3 stock my fox.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is better on Yoshi's against Fox than on, say, FD. Yes.

No my secretzzzzzzzz

 

[Druggedfox]

Watch your approaches, make sure they're not easily DD grabbable etc. Fighting falcon in terms of approaching isn't really any different than fighting a marth. Work on your punishment game on falcon, which I'm sure is way better with your falco than fox (its way easier with falco in general). Upthrow upsmash works a lot of the time, even if they DI, as a pseudo-combo/trap. I've caught a lot of falcons trying to DI away+DJ out, only for them to lose their DJ and get combo'd forever. Catch falcon's approaches. If falcon tries to approach you, remember that you can eat right through any of his moves with uptilt/bair/upsmash, and that you can CC his stuff.

Pay attention to how falcons play when on the defensive, for example when in shield. They might be getting free rolls away from you that could have been combo food for you. Are they stomping OoS a lot? You can beat that with aerial-->uptilt or with aerial behind shield --> aerial (for example nair behind to an immediate SH bair). If you don't press all your advantages, the matchup isn't really in fox's advantage anymore.

Baiting is a big deal in this matchup, as in any matchup that is heavily DD based, imo. You might be underestimating falcon's ability to get to you. A good falcon will just be trying to bait your approaches, or catch your retreats when you are baiting him to approach; you can play aggressively or defensively, but either way patience is really important in this matchup (as with any). If you can do well with falco, its probably a sign that controlling his movement is what makes or breaks the matchup for you. Work on understanding zoning in the fox vs falcon matchup: how much space you need to where its safe to approach because hes cornered, when its safer to back off, when you are close enough to bait an attack but far enough away that you're actually safe. There are lots of spacings where you can press an advantage, and focusing on them can help a lot if controlling the opposing character's movement is a big issue for you.

Tried to make it pretty general, and address some potential issues that I'm guessing you might be having.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

ahh, you pointed out alot of major things. stomp OOS was annoying me, i'm glad you mentioned it. so if i'm facing my opponent and i know he's going in, but i'm not at CC percent, what is a general good ruling? WD back? turn around utilt? usmash seems a little too risky in this case. i generally try and jump before he gets in to drop from above with an aerial while he's aerialing to beat it out, which i don't think is very good, but can't think of a common better.. combo'ing has been tedious. more work than i thought it would be.

 

[ArcNatural]

I'm not really sure what you mean by facing opponent and know he is going in. It's still very player dependent on what you would want to do after. All your responses if they are baiting a spotdodge or just going to grab or etc. all have different responses.

A lot of Falcons are good at predicting when you are running away and he is faster than Fox so simply retreating isn't always a good idea. The times I just run away by running towards Falcon opposed to away works a lot since most Falcons either are running up to bait a spot dodge or running up and attacking where they think you will retreat.

DruggedFox covered the OOS stuff Falcon does pretty well. Also remember you can tech chase and trap Falcon a lot from your upthrows and in general hits.

I really like shining across stage to upsmash/grab/dsmash if I get them in that. I've also been liking shine to uptilt for combos at % where they can not CC it properly.

Cover a lot of your retreats by paying attention as you prepare to run away, and if they jump towards you just reaction bairing can save your life. It's not hard to do once you know to look for it.

Pay attention to how well they are tech chasing you. You may think your random but if they are on a roll your best bet is to mindlessly hit all the directions then tech!

 

[JPOBS]

Is there anything good/guaranteed that you can combo into from shine vs puff?

 

[TemPesT-]

tech chase grab. upthrow upair.

bnb

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ JPOBS

Not legitimately.

You can tech chase her if she doesn't edgecancel it though.

 

[ChivalRuse]

KirbyKaze, do you have a file cabinet full of your old posts where you gave technical advice that you just recycle over and over?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Not an organized one.

edit: I don't actually have one. I just remember important stuff. I retype a lot. I go through old posts more for MU data though. I might compile a bunch of posts though for ASDI and CC, shield pressure, basic BnB combos, and whatever but that would take a while.

 

[JPOBS]

yea tech chase is what i do.

was just wondering if there was something janky like waveshine->fsmash lol

 

[ArcNatural]

Shine to neutral position. True combo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Brookman is going to likely say Drillshine U-smash but the level of perfection you need for that is absurd and you almost demand forward momentum vs Puff to get it because of how far she goes from the Shine, particularly if she DIs it away. It's an unrealistic goal, and not even commonly usable because of how easily she edgecancels.

That said, if you wanted to you could Shine --> F-tilt, Jab, or dash attack on her non-tech (and still realistically account for tech rolls and abort mission to hit them) but none of those are as useful as hitting a tech chase so... don't.

If you have dash momentum and she doesn't tech you can Shine U-smash but you already knew that.