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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
I noticed tonight that whenever I shine on a platform I begin to fall through it, and as a result my jump cancels off platforms are always double jumps and the timing for waveshines is different. Is there any way to avoid this? It doesn't seem to matter how quickly I JC the shine, and the only way I've found to prevent myself from falling through is to go into a full crouch beforehand. What am I doing wrong?
I don't actually know how to avoid this problem either. Shining on platforms is always a problem for me. I usually full hop or short hop out of them.

When is uthrow bair better than upthorw upair?
This is incredibly situational and really doesn't have a 100% correct answer. My advice to you is to go for the upair if it will kill and if your opponent does not consistently get out of the up airs with SDI. If they miss the DI on your upthrow, it's a little easier to upair them.
If you're near the ledge and think you can hit your ledge guard, take the bair instead. If the opponent is hard to upair, bair them instead.
Uair has more combo potential. Bair has more positioning potential. Either could be better in the exact same situation, depending on the fox player's strengths. If you have great ledge guarding, then by all means put yourself in ledge guard situations as often as you can with a bair.
 

Pogogo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
321
Does raynex play pokemon? No? Thats what I thought.

(he probably does.....)
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
I can't seem to get my shield pressure going using the y/b/a so I'm trying out using up to short hop out of the shine and I'm having a decent amount of success.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
tomacawk and derkis:

I think what's happening is, you have to be holding down pre-shine in order to not fall through a platform when you shine on it.

this means if you're going to try stuff like full hop aerial->shine->waveshine, you have to make sure to fast fall. sometimes is easy to get lazy and not fast fall cuz you're jumping up to a platform i guess.
i dunno see if that helps
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
journeyman actually comes from the old apprenticeship model of artisanship. You start out as an apprentice to someone skilled in your field. After some reasonable period studying under them, you've come to the point where you are competent, and you go on a journey around the land to prove your skills, working where you can and selling whatever it is you're making/providing. Thus journeyman.

Then you create your "masterpiece," which originally meant a very high quality piece of work in your field that proved you had learned all you needed to learn and could thus be called a master. It doesn't really mean that anymore, but... interesting side note I suppose.

e: this is @pogogo. also edited for idiocy
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
anyone got some tips or tricks on camping? I kinda forgot how to do it well
what a typical chun question.
Put your back to your opponent. Laser if you're into that kind of thing, but I don't think it's necessary. Jump around on platforms. I like to drop and dj waveland a lot. Don't just sit there idly; watch your opponent's movements. Think about their options as they move around. Realize that they are getting impatient and want to come at you. If they're good, they're trying to predict where your next move is. This leaves you a few options
a) try to out prioritize their approach, with utilt or bair preferably. You could jump at them and shine waveland and beat their aerial, too. Option (a) sucks against falco, in my experience his everything beats your everything. Jumping shines work REALLY well against ganons who do not use a lot of uairs.
b) dodge them and punish their lag. pretty self explanatory. This requires you to foresee their movements and put yourself in a situation to punish accordingly. This could be difficult if you're near the ledge. I tend to get cornered and panic often so I stray from this option. It's a matter of style and preference.
c) out-maneuver them and gain preferable stage positioning. A great example of this is to fullhop over their approach and get their backs to the ledge with little room to move. If you fullhop and land, your back is to them and you can stuff *almost* any approach with bair or utilt. This is my favorite option.

The key is to camp creatively. I beat a lot of decent players by abusing their "camping" tendencies with my largely aggressive style. It's important to stop yourself from being predictable. I think people interpret "camp" with too many unnecessary implications--boring play, little to no movement, mindless waiting, "cheesy", skill-less play, etc. This is why I beat so many campy players. Camp intelligently. Don't pitch a tent and set up a camp fire; travel through the darkness, grizzly bair style, and steal their food by surprise.

***edited***

Fox camps so well because he has a lot of options due to his incredible speed. Effective campers are swift to approach any opening while they're camping. I think camping is less about making them come to you and more about you making them fight on your terms. Feel free to leave your embankment of ******ry with a swift dair approach if you can get away with it. Run past them and grab them as they run away if they're reluctant to approach you. You should be camping with PURPOSE. Be mindful of any and all openings that can occur. One of my favorite things to do is to jump and side B straight at people while we're in dd battles. You'd be shocked how often it works. At high %s it'll combo into a kill.


UNRELATED

I've been toying around with a new way to get up from the ledge and it's meggggga gay. Waveland turn around uptilt stuffs basically 100% of attacks that people throw out at you as you come from the ledge. It's a lot like ledge hop knee, except much better, faster, safer, and more range.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
When is uthrow bair better than upthorw upair?

I just noticed I'm a "cadet", soon nothing wil stop me from being a "journeyman" whatever the **** that is
Little known fact legend>master>lord>ace.
If it will hit them offstage and Uair won't KO then it's better to Bair

Sometimes if they DI the throw it's easier to DI trap them with it, which is another case where it's better

Uair is better if they don't DI the throw or if it will kill and Bair won't send them offstage (or won't send them far offstage)
 

Evoke

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
122
Location
New York
what a typical chun question.
Put your back to your opponent. Laser if you're into that kind of thing, but I don't think it's necessary. Jump around on platforms. I like to drop and dj waveland a lot. Don't just sit there idly; watch your opponent's movements. Think about their options as they move around. Realize that they are getting impatient and want to come at you. If they're good, they're trying to predict where your next move is. This leaves you a few options
a) try to out prioritize their approach, with utilt or bair preferably. You could jump at them and shine waveland and beat their aerial, too. Option (a) sucks against falco, in my experience his everything beats your everything. Jumping shines work REALLY well against ganons who do not use a lot of uairs.
b) dodge them and punish their lag. pretty self explanatory. This requires you to foresee their movements and put yourself in a situation to punish accordingly. This could be difficult if you're near the ledge. I tend to get cornered and panic often so I stray from this option. It's a matter of style and preference.
c) out-maneuver them and gain preferable stage positioning. A great example of this is to fullhop over their approach and get their backs to the ledge with little room to move. If you fullhop and land, your back is to them and you can stuff *almost* any approach with bair or utilt. This is my favorite option.

The key is to camp creatively. I beat a lot of decent players by abusing their "camping" tendencies with my largely aggressive style. It's important to stop yourself from being predictable. I think people interpret "camp" with too many unnecessary implications--boring play, little to no movement, mindless waiting, "cheesy", skill-less play, etc. This is why I beat so many campy players. Camp intelligently. Don't pitch a tent and set up a camp fire; travel through the darkness, grizzly bair style, and steal their food by surprise.

***edited***

Fox camps so well because he has a lot of options due to his incredible speed. Effective campers are swift to approach any opening while they're camping. I think camping is less about making them come to you and more about you making them fight on your terms. Feel free to leave your embankment of ******ry with a swift dair approach if you can get away with it. Run past them and grab them as they run away if they're reluctant to approach you. You should be camping with PURPOSE. Be mindful of any and all openings that can occur. One of my favorite things to do is to jump and side B straight at people while we're in dd battles. You'd be shocked how often it works. At high %s it'll combo into a kill.


UNRELATED

I've been toying around with a new way to get up from the ledge and it's meggggga gay. Waveland turn around uptilt stuffs basically 100% of attacks that people throw out at you as you come from the ledge. It's a lot like ledge hop knee, except much better, faster, safer, and more range.
these paragraphs will forever be etched in my mind.
 

Ixninjax

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
322
Location
Davis CA
I noticed tonight that whenever I shine on a platform I begin to fall through it, and as a result my jump cancels off platforms are always double jumps and the timing for waveshines is different. Is there any way to avoid this? It doesn't seem to matter how quickly I JC the shine, and the only way I've found to prevent myself from falling through is to go into a full crouch beforehand. What am I doing wrong?
I believe if you only press down enough to allow the shine to register it will prevent you from falling through.

So instead of smashing down and then B, bring the joystick halfway down (or however much is needed) then press B.
 

ViciousEnd

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
297
I like when people DI UP-throw forward so you weak bair them land on the platform, then upsmash. It seems very situational...but stilll rapeee.
I've been experimenting with this exact situation. For me though, it's often up throw up air, they di toward platform, and me coming in with nair to upsmash. Other follow ups that I need to consciously toy with are turn around up tilt, down tilt, and regrab. Downsmash won't really do anything super productive at those percents unless they DI with the hit expecting upsmash.
 

ViciousEnd

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
297
d-tilt sucks
If they DI away like they should be doing anyways I don't think d-tilt will link into anything more than a nair at best. But otherwise, it would be the worst of the three alternate options. Regrab seems good for the sake of getting off another grab combo, but in all liklihood, you won't have much space on the platform to do a follow-up out of dash if they just DI away again. Then again you could try doing the nair super deep so you actually pass through them and then land with a turn around grab. Now you just have to deal with them DI'ing behind you haha.

Up tilt is probably the best of the alternate follow-ups. At that percent I think you can do follow ups on pretty much everyone.

By the way, the combo being discussed really only works on (reliably given that it is indeed a very situational combo) Marth (from 0%), Sheik (probably the same), and Peach (no idea what percents). Other than that weak nair to platform combos are done at slightly higher percents on everyone else (except Jiggs because good luck trying this bull**** on her gay ***).
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
No dude, that **** is cash on Jiggs.

One of my favorite things to do to Jigglypuffs that really more Foxes should do is, if you can FJ above a puff as she's coming down with a low bair, then you land on her with a weak nair and run and usmash. Kills at like 50%ish a lot of the time. And at slightly lower percents than that, you can nair onto platform and usmash.

I think PC Chris does this to Mango in the first match on Yoshi's Story at Pound 3 or something. or it might have been OC3 or SCC. anyway, it's the match where iirc all 4 of Mango's kills are rests lol
 

ViciousEnd

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
297
I'm not saying you can't do it on Jiggs, I just think it could be risky given how weak you want the nair to be in order to hit. I do it mostly without platforms like you just said, but on platforms you tend to not have enough room to be able to dash and reach her body with an upsmash.
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
lol omg joe

i was thinking the exact same word when jman hit lucky with that uair when lucky was recovering at like 30% or whatever it was ... JUICY :D

dude joe jman is so ****ing good LOL how did you beat him? are you ALSO ****ing good? @_________@ zomg. was jman off? i wanna fox ditto you so bad lol
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
playing poorly and getting ***** is the same thing though. Like you know drunk girls who get date-***** at parties? you can john for them all you want and just say they were just "partying really poorly," but the reality is, they were *****.
 

ViciousEnd

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Messages
297
playing poorly and getting ***** is the same thing though. Like you know drunk girls who get date-***** at parties? you can john for them all you want and just say they were just "partying really poorly," but the reality is, they were *****.
I...... where do I begin?
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
wow. toph, you were already in my top 3-4 favourite posters, but you jsut skyrocketed to a clear #1.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
playing poorly and getting ***** is the same thing though. Like you know drunk girls who get date-***** at parties? you can john for them all you want and just say they were just "partying really poorly," but the reality is, they were *****.
yea, real ****. Some ppl "party poorly" and get ****ed up.
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
If I'm holding a knife and you run into it (and there are witnesses and footage) is it assault or an accident?
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
yea but kels also loses to jigglypuffs i almost double 3-stock with my ****ty *** fox

i probably would have done the 2nd 3-stock if i hadn't been a cocky ***** and tried to like do something stupidly ridiculous with u-throw dair but w/e johns
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
yea but kels also loses to jigglypuffs i almost double 3-stock with my ****ty *** fox

i probably would have done the 2nd 3-stock if i hadn't been a cocky ***** and tried to like do something stupidly ridiculous with u-throw dair but w/e johns
man, you only 3-stock him with fox?

I 4 stock him all day

with falcon :p
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
That was after Kels beat m2k's roy and "stopped caring" (his words, not mine)
Kels is definitely under-rated, but I understand why. He ****s up against out of region players. He had a convincing win over wobbles at PoE3 though (not recorded, of course)
It was inspirational. So patient. So many bairs.
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
Is anyone on here consistent at the shine-turn around-JC edge hog?? SW??

I'm getting solid at shffling with the control stick and the aforementioned edge hog.
 

Kels88

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
1,329
Location
Chicago, Illinois
kels got 4-stocked by m2k's roy

m2k was only able to 3-stock me with roy on fd. AND i was ****ing around

so hah
lmao at people thinking I was trying against his Roy. I already beat it the match before that and they were friendlies. Not to mention that i have recently been beating m2k in fox dittos. But whatever. Just don't try critique me in a match i wasn't trying in.
 
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