Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Silent Wolf]

To attain Chillin Level 8.

No seriously, it's not really useful.



lol nah, that'd be broken as ****



np

if you know how to use it and use it sparingly it is. shine slide -> jump shine/bair

 

[mers]

so this isn't really related to fox in any particular way, but i was playing fox when it happened and i dont want to start a thread in melee discussion because nothing gets accomplished there and smart people frequent this thread.

i was playing fox against my friend's CF today. i had missed a tech on a platform (i dont know if that's germane or not), and he stomped me. i fell through the platform and landed on the ground instead of getting popped up.

I couldn't repeat this, although we only tried like once because who cares, but what happen? My guess is that I SDI'd it down and my body went far enough through the platform that the like 'be on platform' flag or whatever bull**** wasn't triggered anymore, so my downward momentum actually sent me down instead of upwards. am i correct about this?

ASDI was not sufficient to produce the same result (bc thats way easier to test).

I'm almost 100% sure that you can't SDI through a platform. SDI still makes you connect with techable surfaces (that's the basis of ledgeteching). And if Falcon stomps you during the bounce after missing a tech, you should just hit the platform again. You can actually tech this I'm pretty sure.

So yeah, I don't think any of the basic smash mechanics can explain this. I'd love to hear the answer though.

 

[FoxLisk]

I'm almost 100% sure that you can't SDI through a platform. SDI still makes you connect with techable surfaces (that's the basis of ledgeteching). And if Falcon stomps you during the bounce after missing a tech, you should just hit the platform again. You can actually tech this I'm pretty sure.

So yeah, I don't think any of the basic smash mechanics can explain this. I'd love to hear the answer though.

huh yeah that's true about hitting techable surfaces. I'm gonna PM magus, maybe he'll help figure this out.

 

[omgwtfToph]

if you know how to use it and use it sparingly it is. shine slide -> jump shine/bair

i was targeting the audience of a person who asks a question like that. If someone is like "is this really obscure thing useful" it's ultimately more helpful to them if you tell them it's not useful so that they don't worry about things that aren't going to help them

obviously there are times when things like shinebair are useful but it's not worth talking about them imho

the example you posted is **** when you hit them with the sliding shine lol. that's the "Chillin level 8" don't ask me why I know that

 

[4 Aces]

For Thunder's Combo, after the shine --> jab reset, do you immediately follow up with the falling uair? I usually dash dance before I attempt the falling uair, and it normally doesn't work.

Also, I want to review a basic mechanic: Crouch Cancel. I'm rather rusty on the subject.

Alright, so at low percents when you crouch cancel hits, you can take them like a g and c-stick downsmash or upsmash or something. (I'm not referring to just Fox; anyone in general)

But at higher percents you'll fall down right?
Then at even higher percents you get sent flying off the ground, but your knockback is significantly reduced? Is that how it works? Obviously, the shine changes some of these mechanics. lol

Also, if you're a shine faller and you crouch cancel a shine, you don't get knocked down, but rather just get slightly pushed away?

 

[FoxLisk]

okay okay we need a sticky about crouch cancelling somewhere.

there are two kinds of crouch cancelling:

type 1: your character is actually in his crouching animation. Your knockback is DRASTICALLY reduced. So is your hitstun and stuff i believe. so if you playing marth and crouching, and a fox nair hits you at like 50%, you will barely slide and be able to grab or jab or whatever you feel like doing very fast. before they can do anything about it, in general. if you fall from a fox shine, you will not fall (this might not be try for the very lightest characters, but fox/falco certainly slide instead of falling).

type 2: your character is not crouching (say you are DDing or something out of which you can not immediately crouch). then what you are doing is ASDIing down. this has the impact of reducing knockback somewhat. If you are at low %, you will stay on the ground. for example, if you are marth and not crouchign but ASDIing down at, like, 30% or so, you will get the effect of being able to CC grab a fox nair. (these percents are somewhat pulled out of my ***, don't take them as gospel). But at like 50% or wherever, a true CC will still work but you will go up from the nair.

what will actually happen is, on the first frame after hitlag, the vertical knockback from the move will send you up farther than your ASDI down will send you down, so you will not remain grounded. I have no idea how this interacts with people who fall from shine, but that's easy to test.

In the first case, even if you get sent flying your knockback will be dramatically reduced. take like a jiggs at like 80% and usmash her with fox. if she's not crouching she'll die, if she is crouching she should live. in the second case I believe she will die either way.

 

[condemned_soul]

does shine upsmash work on mario?

 

[Silent Wolf]

i was targeting the audience of a person who asks a question like that. If someone is like "is this really obscure thing useful" it's ultimately more helpful to them if you tell them it's not useful so that they don't worry about things that aren't going to help them

obviously there are times when things like shinebair are useful but it's not worth talking about them imho

the example you posted is **** when you hit them with the sliding shine lol. that's the "Chillin level 8" don't ask me why I know that

i dont think telling people things are completely useless (i know you didnt do that, im just responding to this post) is right either. just tell them when it can be useful if it can, and if there are other options in that situation then dont always use that just because it can work. educate + regulate > dismiss

people dont know what youre trying to do and they just think its bad (if they are that dependent on ppl on swf lol) not actually a big deal, ended up typing more than i expected >.>

does shine upsmash work on mario?

waveshine up smash does, if thats what you mean. shine up smash can also work

 

[Winston]

@ FoxLisk

it's also worth noting that after the percents where ASDI down lets you stay on your feet, but before the percents where you get knocked into the air, you get knocked into the ground. You can tech off of this too. At low percents you'll get knocked down by moves that send you downards like Falcon/Falco's dairs if you ASDI down, which is usually better than getting knocked into the air.

 

[omgwtfToph]

educate + regulate > dismiss

whoa. tech skill is like marijuana :o

lol yea i get your point though

 

[Silent Wolf]

LOL yeah thats where i got that from (facebook not marijuana)

 

[FoxLisk]

@ FoxLisk

it's also worth noting that after the percents where ASDI down lets you stay on your feet, but before the percents where you get knocked into the air, you get knocked into the ground. You can tech off of this too. At low percents you'll get knocked down by moves that send you downards like Falcon/Falco's dairs if you ASDI down, which is usually better than getting knocked into the air.

ah, yes, thank you, i should have mentioned that.


@SW & toph:

I think toph is right here. SW, you don't need to explain corner cases until people have the more obvious options down very well. i really dont think there's a point in clouding people's minds with knowledge taht isn't useless yet. it's like when you're teaching someone division, you don't teach them that you can't divide by zero until they know how division works. you dont need to tell them that chillin dashing is useful in certain rare cases until they know how to do regular division.

 

[4 Aces]

okay okay we need a sticky about crouch cancelling somewhere.

there are two kinds of crouch cancelling:

type 1: your character is actually in his crouching animation. Your knockback is DRASTICALLY reduced. So is your hitstun and stuff i believe. so if you playing marth and crouching, and a fox nair hits you at like 50%, you will barely slide and be able to grab or jab or whatever you feel like doing very fast. before they can do anything about it, in general. if you fall from a fox shine, you will not fall (this might not be try for the very lightest characters, but fox/falco certainly slide instead of falling).

type 2: your character is not crouching (say you are DDing or something out of which you can not immediately crouch). then what you are doing is ASDIing down. this has the impact of reducing knockback somewhat. If you are at low %, you will stay on the ground. for example, if you are marth and not crouchign but ASDIing down at, like, 30% or so, you will get the effect of being able to CC grab a fox nair. (these percents are somewhat pulled out of my ***, don't take them as gospel). But at like 50% or wherever, a true CC will still work but you will go up from the nair.

what will actually happen is, on the first frame after hitlag, the vertical knockback from the move will send you up farther than your ASDI down will send you down, so you will not remain grounded. I have no idea how this interacts with people who fall from shine, but that's easy to test.

In the first case, even if you get sent flying your knockback will be dramatically reduced. take like a jiggs at like 80% and usmash her with fox. if she's not crouching she'll die, if she is crouching she should live. in the second case I believe she will die either way.

Just for clarification, the bolded means that you'll still get knocked up into the air even with the ASDI, BUT you won't if you're just doing a regular crouch cancel? I wasn't sure which one you meant to refer to.

Thanks. This clears up some things, but I'm gonna have to take some time and process it. A lot of good info here.

 

[omgwtfToph]

@SW & toph:

I think toph is right here. SW, you don't need to explain corner cases until people have the more obvious options down very well. i really dont think there's a point in clouding people's minds with knowledge taht isn't useless yet. it's like when you're teaching someone division, you don't teach them that you can't divide by zero until they know how division works. you dont need to tell them that chillin dashing is useful in certain rare cases until they know how to do regular division.

yea otto **** you

 

[FoxLisk]

Just for clarification, the bolded means that you'll still get knocked up into the air even with the ASDI, BUT you won't if you're just doing a regular crouch cancel? I wasn't sure which one you meant to refer to.

Thanks. This clears up some things, but I'm gonna have to take some time and process it. A lot of good info here.

yeah, there should be a range of percents (varying by staleness of opponents move, of course) where a true crouch cancel will keep you grounded but a 'fake' CC - that is, just an ASDI down while your character is grounded but not crouching - will make you bounce. this is related to what Gustav was saying a few posts ago.

 

[KAOSTAR]

ah, yes, thank you, i should have mentioned that.


@SW & toph:

I think toph is right here. SW, you don't need to explain corner cases until people have the more obvious options down very well. i really dont think there's a point in clouding people's minds with knowledge taht isn't useless yet. it's like when you're teaching someone division, you don't teach them that you can't divide by zero until they know how division works. you dont need to tell them that chillin dashing is useful in certain rare cases until they know how to do regular division.

he specifically asked if chillin dashing had any uses. the correct answer is yes(insert rare instance here). the wrong answer is no. the **** answer is don't worry about it until ur on my level.

its not like otto suggested in a rare all planets align situation you can use chillin dashing to solve problem x. he just answered the question lol.

 

[Silent Wolf]

ah, yes, thank you, i should have mentioned that.


@SW & toph:

I think toph is right here. SW, you don't need to explain corner cases until people have the more obvious options down very well. i really dont think there's a point in clouding people's minds with knowledge taht isn't useless yet. it's like when you're teaching someone division, you don't teach them that you can't divide by zero until they know how division works. you dont need to tell them that chillin dashing is useful in certain rare cases until they know how to do regular division.

toph has a point, yeah, but all i was saying is that they wouldnt understand what he meant when he said there are no uses, theyd just think there were no uses, which would make toph a liar >_> he could have just said there are uses but theyre impractical, so they arent used very often. if someone cares enough to ask if there are any uses im sure they would remember them lol

edit: tight theres a pokeball on my ****.

edit: also i can edit my title. miss you toph :[

 

[omgwtfToph]

<3333333333333

edit: rofl why is there like a little red explosion next to your name o_O

 

[Silent Wolf]

i got it for being so technical ;3

i seriously dont remember applying to be a pokemon master, let alone going into those forums >.>
they must have just known

 

[omgwtfToph]

fuxk o_O

i guess thats how i know im not actually a pokemon master yet. ill keep working at it

 

[DtJ Jungle]

The little explosion thingy means he was a mod at some point

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

jeez jungle that's the most icons i've seen yet. i research smash like 12 hours a day, is it hard to get in?

 

[Kanelol]

what the **** is a dGames MVP

 

[SSSnake]

if you were to get another icon would it go underneath the others? serious biz people.

 

[PK Webb]

yo does anyone have any advice on how to sh nair shine with x.....i cant seem to get it....

 

[unknown522]

man, using X and/or R for anything feels so awkward to me. It's like shooting with my left hand in basketball.

Also, when I try to L-cancel with R, then I press L too most of the time. So automatic. lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

tap x then tap a then tap b then tap x really fast. if u can multishine with x & b consitenly youll be fine.

 

[voorhese]

lol you dont need to be able to multishine with x, to be able to shine nair...i multishine/shine oos with y, and everything else with x...as long as ur comfortable with any micro u use, then ull be fine...x,y,r,l,up doesnt matter so much... only one that i think MAY be helpfull is using y for ur shine **** cuz its closer to b, but i use x and im fine...wants u get used to ur button choice it doesnt matter.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Yeah i have a stupid amount of these things
*goes to turn off*

Not to be off topic but
Dgames mvp is for being an MVP of a mafia game that is held in DGames
Smash Researcher isn't that easy, you have to do a small project for the head of the Smash Lab, and it was for brawl.

i use y for all things except for jc grabs, which i use x

i dunno.

 

[RaynEX]

type 2: your character is not crouching (say you are DDing or something out of which you can not immediately crouch). then what you are doing is ASDIing down. this has the impact of reducing knockback somewhat. If you are at low %, you will stay on the ground. for example, if you are marth and not crouchign but ASDIing down at, like, 30% or so, you will get the effect of being able to CC grab a fox nair. (these percents are somewhat pulled out of my ***, don't take them as gospel). But at like 50% or wherever, a true CC will still work but you will go up from the nair.

what will actually happen is, on the first frame after hitlag, the vertical knockback from the move will send you up farther than your ASDI down will send you down, so you will not remain grounded. I have no idea how this interacts with people who fall from shine, but that's easy to test.

In the first case, even if you get sent flying your knockback will be dramatically reduced. take like a jiggs at like 80% and usmash her with fox. if she's not crouching she'll die, if she is crouching she should live. in the second case I believe she will die either way.

I'm 95% sure this "type 2" CC you're speaking of is not ASDI. Since when do you have to actually be crouching to CC grab/move? You can whiff a nair with Fox, take a hit during its recovery and still CC->shine. If you crouched in place and CC shined instead, the percent it worked at wouldn't change.

 

[omgwtfToph]

i have a little pichu face

 

[Winston]

I'm 95% sure this "type 2" CC you're speaking of is not ASDI. Since when do you have to actually be crouching to CC grab/move? You can whiff a nair with Fox, take a hit during its recovery and still CC->shine. If you crouched in place and CC shined instead, the percent it worked at wouldn't change.

No, the percent would change. It's really noticeable for some moves, like Sheik's tilts and raptor boost, which you can CC by crouching up to a pretty high percent. If you were in lag or something and just holding down though, they'd knock you over/knock you up starting at like 20 or 30.

 

[Brookman]

Cort Smash DI's to CC. He CC grabs may nairs at upwards of ~60% (if I recall correctly)

He doesn't hold down, but presses down when I'm hitting him.

 

[mers]

Cort Smash DI's to CC. He CC grabs may nairs at upwards of ~60% (if I recall correctly)

He doesn't hold down, but presses down when I'm hitting him.

Weird. Like Gustav Wind said, actually crouching when you CC makes a huge difference. That's what true CC is, fake CC is just ASDI/DI down.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Ive heard(definitely cannot confirm) the true CC helps more because you are lower to the ground. So if you SDI downish into ASDI it would be more like a true cc.

has anyone heard anything similar to the first? or is it just a property of crouching.

 

[Kanelol]

Ive heard(definitely cannot confirm) the true CC helps more because you are lower to the ground. So if you SDI downish into ASDI it would be more like a true cc.

has anyone heard anything similar to the first? or is it just a property of crouching.

I'm pretty sure proximity to the ground has nothing to do with true CC'ings effectiveness

I mean, it just doesn't really seem logical

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea, I saw somebody post it awhile back and figured couldnt hurt to ask.

 

[Brookman]

Just want to post this:


up throw shine wavedash back dash JC shine @ the edge is almost a free kill @ any percent vs. fox/falco.

 

[Tomacawk]

Just want to post this:


up throw shine wavedash back dash JC shine @ the edge is almost a free kill @ any percent vs. fox/falco.

I posted this awhile ago and most people ignored it. You can actually wavedash back and shine again without dashing and get the same effect--your first shine needs to be spaced so they "bounce" up and backwards, and don't get spiked into the floor
this is massive **** though

 

[Kason Birdman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MN-YhD-BYA

sorry for my ****ty fox.
but kasodis special none the less