Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Fortress | Sveet]

Anyone Marth's weight or heavier, and just dash for them all, there's no downside.

You're not fast enough to combo the ICs or Luigi, but you can hit them with an Illusion if you really want.

You can combo ICs from the shine.

You can ALMOST combo Luigi if you're frame perfect, but he actually has ~3 actionable frames before you can get in range to shine him. You can hit him if he tries to roll, grab or attack, and if he just shields you can shield pressure out of the shine. But ya, thats only if you are really really quick, I can only do it when i'm playing really Hot. Its probably better to just reset the situation and not try to pressure.

 

[Bones0]

I think you can waveshine Luigi if you do it from a ledgedash. lol

 

[Super]

Anyone Marth's weight or heavier, and just dash for them all, there's no downside.

You're not fast enough to combo the ICs or Luigi, but you can hit them with an Illusion if you really want.

Wouldn't it be pointless to dash when you can already reach with a WD (even if it's no a perfect WD). Say Falcon for example. Marth I could see though.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

Does anyone have any advice for learning the chaingrab on Fox? When they DI fully away I find it hard to regrab, am I just reacting too slow?

 

[CeLL]

Does anyone have any advice for learning the chaingrab on Fox? When they DI fully away I find it hard to regrab, am I just reacting too slow?

You have to jump cancel grab, if you're not.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ D Druggedfox This is the thing that makes me question BF being good vs Falco like ya'll say cus of the top platform where it's supposedly hard to reach Fox in time without the Fox reacting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6kmajdgcUk&list=PLovBMkMLex7x26W4D8ejP6vWrCOdPr8s1#t=1150

 

[Super]

Any tips on dealing with Falcon? I'm especially having problem with Falcon outranging and nairing approaches.

 

[Pengie]

@ D Druggedfox This is the thing that makes me question BF being good vs Falco like ya'll say cus of the top platform where it's supposedly hard to reach Fox in time without the Fox reacting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6kmajdgcUk&list=PLovBMkMLex7x26W4D8ejP6vWrCOdPr8s1#t=1150

Meh that was more of Mango just calling Hax out for going to the top platform. Like, Mango recognized that Hax wanted to go up there BECAUSE it is a relatively safe spot in a lot of situations. Ultimately it comes down more to Mango just recognizing what was going on faster than Hax could so he got to convert off of it than anything else. Now if Hax had actually gotten up there safely without Mango calling him out the situation would have been completely different and Mango would have had a pretty tough time getting up there without risking getting hit.

 

[MintyFlesh]

Hiya guys, so I'm a samus main and i went fox today in a tourney. I wanna get him good, can someone watch a set of my fox and help critique?I just rewatched it, and I feel like my combo DI, recovery, and options from ledge are kind of weak, which collectively leads me to dying. Im probably just not aware of certain options.

The set starts at 1:51:00 ish.

 

[Druggedfox]

@ D Druggedfox This is the thing that makes me question BF being good vs Falco like ya'll say cus of the top platform where it's supposedly hard to reach Fox in time without the Fox reacting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6kmajdgcUk&list=PLovBMkMLex7x26W4D8ejP6vWrCOdPr8s1#t=1150

Uh, couple things.

1) Hax actually got caught dashing on the top platform, not jumping to it. He was safe on the top, and if he had just shielded OR full jumped while on the top platform, he would have punished mango's nair for free.

2) Mango had a hard read, and he had to wait for fox to jump up there. Since he had to sit there and wait for fox to go up there, he was vulnerable to fox just running at him and attacking.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

You have to jump cancel grab, if you're not.

Yeah I am JC grabbing. It just seems that when they hard DI away, I'm getting there slightly too late. Any tips?

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

Yeah I am JC grabbing. It just seems that when they hard DI away, I'm getting there slightly too late. Any tips?

do it faster

 

[CeLL]

Yeah I am JC grabbing. It just seems that when they hard DI away, I'm getting there slightly too late. Any tips?

It only works until like 40% or somewhere around there. Other than that, you're not doing it fast enough.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Uh, couple things.

1) Hax actually got caught dashing on the top platform, not jumping to it. He was safe on the top, and if he had just shielded OR full jumped while on the top platform, he would have punished mango's nair for free.

2) Mango had a hard read, and he had to wait for fox to jump up there. Since he had to sit there and wait for fox to go up there, he was vulnerable to fox just running at him and attacking.

Agreed, top platform is pretty good but not for dashing. If he had fallen down and come back with an up-air, it would have been mango taking 69%. Battlefield is pretty good, and it's not bad just because Falco can reach the top platform, because then Yoshi's and Fountain would also be ass, Pokemon and FD have no top platform, that leaves us only with Dreamland (can Falco reach that top platform in 1 jump?) which also happens to be my favourite stage vs Falco.

But yeah, the list goes like Dreamland > Battlefield > Final Destination > Yoshis = FoD > Stadium against Falco, at least for me.

God I really hate Stadium.

 

[Druggedfox]

Falco can reach the top platform of DL in one jump, but yea its hard for him to catch you on dreamland because of its size. On the flip side it's a great combo stage for him, and its harder to stop him from lasering.

I think stadium is pretty objectively falco's best stage in the matchup....I'm not sure I've ever heard a fox player like it.

FD is a lot better than stadium because the platforms protect falco when he lasers at certain spots from an attack from above.

 

[Medz!]

So what are the best recovery choices against falco? I played forward and when I would go high he would just go up there and bair me as stated above. So I'm wondering how I can have an easier time recovering.

 

[Apasher]

So what are the best recovery choices against falco? I played forward and when I would go high he would just go up there and bair me as stated above. So I'm wondering how I can have an easier time recovering.

Go for the ledge instead. You only want to recover high when you're using it as a mix-up.

 

[Bones0]

(can Falco reach that top platform in 1 jump?)

Battlefield's top plat is higher than Dream Land's. lol

 

[Dos_Equis]

Hey guys, if anyone has time to critique my match, that'd be great It's this set vs. Nakamaru. I have a really hard time vs. Falco (specifically the high-pressure matchups in general. They take control of the momentum and overwhelm me), and the second game that set is the best I think I've ever played in my ~6 mo. playing competitively, so I'm trying to really study this set to see where I need to go in the future.

If you guys have time and what to critique another match, here's me playing a Yoshi. We were trading sets before the summer started, and this was our first set since he came back.

 

[S l o X]

just posting these here cause fox.
vs Hax (GF) - http://youtu.be/251mL5GsrCI

 

[Apasher]

Hey guys, if anyone has time to critique my match, that'd be great It's this set vs. Nakamaru. I have a really hard time vs. Falco (specifically the high-pressure matchups in general. They take control of the momentum and overwhelm me), and the second game that set is the best I think I've ever played in my ~6 mo. playing competitively, so I'm trying to really study this set to see where I need to go in the future.

0:41 - Not the right choice to nair in this situation. The Falco was already shielding as you're landing, anticipating an attack on his shield. Since that didn't happen, it was safe for him to jump out of his shield as you landed. In this situation, use your juggling/anti-air options instead.

0:49 - You had the right idea for this situation, but full-hop nair would've worked much better since SH nair would undershoot. Also, don't shield when you whiff an aerial. That leaves you vulnerable to Falco's many options to counter shield. Dashdance away instead.

0:57 - This is where he starts predicting your SH nairs. Since his Dsmash already cooled down before you even got the chance to nair, it would've been better to use your dashdance to bait him into doing something.

1:14 - Again, you were quick to throw out an aerial in hope that it will hit instead of baiting your opponent to make a bad decision when they're in a bad situation. You had invincibility. This was the perfect opportunity to do so.

1:23 - Recognize your tech-chase opportunities.

1:27 - Again with the thrown out aerials when it wasn't safe to do so. Just because your opponent was previously in a spot doesn't mean that he will stay there. Learn and recognize opportunities when it's COMPLETELY safe to attack.

Work on your platform movement. I see you grounded most of the time, and when you're not, you jump straight back into the ground next to a Falco that is waiting to punish you.

The rest of the match, I just notice tech errors and dropped combo opportunities. I don't want to be that guy who gives the typical "work on your techskill" advice, but you can't ignore it. The key to being a successful Fox is to excel in both techskill and decision making skills. You can't just have one or the other.

Hope this helps

 

[Medz!]

Apasher critique my vid vs Tai it's in the page before

 

[Jim Morrison]

Apasher critique my vid vs Tai it's in the page before

I'll do you, but I also want you to do you. Look at it and think about why stuff happened. When you got grabbed, analyze the whole situation beforehand on WHY you got grabbed instead of looking at bad combo DI etc. or if nothing happened just ignore it. Every grab should be death and as such look at EVERY grab. Also check out your own grabs and how you got them.
I'll do you after you

 

[Apasher]

Also, I'm gonna start being more active on this thread again. I've been willing to help other Fox players improve, and I feel like I might as well share my perspective on things.

 

[Medz!]

I'll do you, but I also want you to do you. Look at it and think about why stuff happened. When you got grabbed, analyze the whole situation beforehand on WHY you got grabbed instead of looking at bad combo DI etc. or if nothing happened just ignore it. Every grab should be death and as such look at EVERY grab. Also check out your own grabs and how you got them.
I'll do you after you

Oh I definitely know why I got grabbed and all that lol I just wanted somebody else's perspective on things.

 

[Voyce]

I just had a few general fox/movement questions.

Is there a fox guide that lists guaranteed combos/ character specific guaranteed combos? ex. upthrow upsmash works on a lot of characters.

Also as fox when should i be crouch canceling? any specific character moves?

And is there a way i should be dropping from ledge specifically? not shield drop, just dropping in general. i feel as if other people drop faster maybe due to isai dropping?

Edit: Is there a way to quickly pivot without messing up? Or does it just take practice?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Oh I definitely know why I got grabbed and all that lol I just wanted somebody else's perspective on things.

Guess not then.

Writing it down yourself really gives another dimension to analyzing your own matches.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Jim you have more posts than me now. I am sad.

Edit: nevermind I have 700 posts I didn't realize i had. Take that!

 

[Jim Morrison]

Man, I've had 15k+ since 2012, only posts since then have been Fox boards LOL. I'm living that retired live,banking on that interest on my post count.

 

[Apasher]

Guess not then.

Writing it down yourself really gives another dimension to analyzing your own matches.

This.

Not only this, but it also helps you develop your own playstyle and advance to the next level of play.

The only time that I would revert to asking for critique is when I absolutely do not know what I'm doing wrong, or I do not know what I need to work on.

 

[Medz!]

Guess not then.

Writing it down yourself really gives another dimension to analyzing your own matches.

I mean i take mental notes of what i could have done better or why i got gimped, but i always like to see other players insight on my matches. I would still love a critique xD

 

[Jim Morrison]

I mean i take mental notes of what i could have done better or why i got gimped, but i always like to see other players insight on my matches. I would still love a critique xD

Only because I like doing critiques for myself. It'll be elaborate.

Before we start, some ideas, vs Marth you do NOT want to be in shield, it's even worse than against Falco, since he can space stuff well enough that you can't punish it, even if it's laggy, and then punish you for trying. You want to go back to neutral game and just WAIT for Marth to approach or make a move. Marth does not like neutral game since he is not that good at creating opportunities if you just react correctly to him. After that you try to get him to misspace a move or an aerial and punish with a JC grab, U-air, and everything that is involved with juggling Marth.

0:04 You decide to start the match by shielddropping (failing it once), which gives him so much time to just drop down and get free ground. Instead you could just drop down and gain control of the ground, maybe just stand below him and shield his F-air he would most likely throw and grab etc. etc. Shield drop is just unnecessary when he is all the way on the top platform like that.

0:06 Since he already got that free ground, he was able to approach you. He does a very standard Marth approach of run up down-tilt (pretty poorly spaced at that). You try to punish that with a wavedash out of shield (not succesfully as you first drop your shield, then wavedash which didn't go smooth), which he punished with an easy grab. What he was doing was making sure you stay in shield and react to what you did. A good option here is wavedashing back, because he then has to cover a lot of distance and you create space where you can go back to neutral game (albeit a bit close to the ledge, but you can return to platforms and move over to the other side)

A few seconds later, you were in a situation where you were behind him and he was in his shield. You decide to D-air through him and land in front of him. Marth's ABSOLUTE worst position ever on stage is in his shield and you behind him. You can just stand there and WAIT. No need to even D-air him (it's possibly a good option though), almost all Marth's will instinctively wavedash forward out of shield, away from you. You can just react to his movement and follow him, don't give up that position so easily.

At 0:12, you were doing well in pressuring him to the ledge, but you take it too far and do another rising N-air, instead of late, which he just crouch cancel grabs which results in you off-stage and should be a death (but you sweetspot nicely). After that first N-air at 0:13, shinegrab would be a great option. If you got the grab, he would be above you, above a platform. The reward would be so much greater than just mindlessly shield pressuring and getting a N-air at 15%. When Marth is in his shield, think about what you want to do to win, instead of just trying to make him roll or grab or break his shield. You want to GRAB him.

By now TAI knows your pattern and when you will N-air in. He spaces himself at the perfect position where he can dash-dance grab evade your N-air. This will be recurring throughout the set.
At 0:22 you jump in, no aerial, but he still knew you would eventually jump in and he just had to wait. Approaching with a N-air, or any aerial, just SHFFLing aerial in neutral game towards Marth is a very bad idea. Try to find other ways to get in, or better, make him come to you (shoot a laser or 2).
0:26, he knows it again and is already running but barely gets clipped. By now TAI has fully caught on to your habit of N-airing at a specific distance.

0:33 He now correctly punishes you for it with his F-air. You weren't ready, missed the tech, he gets the tech chase, F-smash, you're dead.


Be back later so I'll edit this later. More to come.


FOR ****S SAKE I CAME ALL THE WAY TO MINUTE 3:12 AND I MISCLICK AND LOST IT ALL I AM SO UPSET THAT I AM DONE AAAHRGG. So many good things (3x the length of this) that we lost...

 

[Jim Morrison]

M3DZ, if you fill me in up to 3:00, I'll continue. Pay special attention to 2:10 when you come back with invincibility and how you nearly die after that.

 

[Apasher]

I cannot stress enough how safe and passive you have to play against Marth. He has defensive tools that are just that good enough that they completely surprass Fox's aggressive options (such as being on his shield).

If you're playing against a Marth, and "one grab means I lose a stock" isn't crossing your mind, you're playing the matchup wrong.

 

[Medz!]

M3DZ, if you fill me in up to 3:00, I'll continue. Pay special attention to 2:10 when you come back with invincibility and how you nearly die after that.

I don't have a laptop or desktop and thanks for the critique btw and I'm still getting used to fighting a good marth. I always have that grab mindset where if I get grabbed I'm ****ed. I should be going for shine grab but I usually never get it on tai. And my edge guarding vs marth sucks when tai recovers low, it's a free edgeguard and I always **** it up lol

 

[Jim Morrison]

Biggest thing to work on is your N-airs, if there's anything to take from this. And looking at your opponent, you sometimes tried to punish TAI for stuff that he had already finished and could dodge.

 

[Medz!]

Yeah i tend to over commit on my nairs, I just want to be hax

 

[BTmoney]

hai guys

anyone know the % samus can no longer CC strong nair & bair? I find the MU gets way easier once you can actually hit her with stuff


also,
general fox ditto pointers? I'm talking general/macros I got really bad at the MU cause I haven't played it in like a year. Fox is just hard to fight lol even when you're playing fox

 

[Apasher]

also,
general fox ditto pointers? I'm talking general/macros I got really bad at the MU cause I haven't played it in like a year. Fox is just hard to fight lol even when you're playing fox

Don't attack first.

The Fox ditto involves heavily on baiting your opponent to commit to attacking first. Use a combination of your lasers and your dashdance in order to do so.

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ Agree. But I would also add that doing things like [FJ nair forward --> pull away at the peak of your jump] can be good way to take stage while protecting your landing from DD grabs. The trick is you're not actually trying to hit the opponent with those fade away aerials, you're just using them to threaten & take control of more space with the goal of pushing them into a more manageable position (the corner).

I think the most common mistake in Fox ditto combat (even at high levels) is YOLO SHFFL nairing into someone and they DD grab / u-smash it. Either that or blindly FJ bairing at the edge.