Cold Fusion
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ JIGGLYPUFF OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2009
- Messages
- 836
When I am far away from him I shoot lasers. When I approach him I do so with dairs, and jc grabs. This I do because both moves are unaffected by crouch canceling.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Spidermad, I think pengie got it covered 
When your opponent is at 0% as fox, I assume you mean that the oppponent can CC a lot of your options.
If they're on the ground, focus on using grab. You can also drill, do extremely delayed and spaced aerials, or shine.
Another thing to do when your opponent is at 0% is look for opportunities where they can't crouch cancel. Namely, when your opponent jumps, they can no longer CC, so you gain access to being able to nair bair upair etc.
Upsmash is pretty much always good if your opponent gives you the opening.
Tl;dr grab if they're on the ground and just hit them with nair/upsmash if they're in the air.
When your opponent is at 0% as fox, I assume you mean that the oppponent can CC a lot of your options.
If they're on the ground, focus on using grab. You can also drill, do extremely delayed and spaced aerials, or shine.
Another thing to do when your opponent is at 0% is look for opportunities where they can't crouch cancel. Namely, when your opponent jumps, they can no longer CC, so you gain access to being able to nair bair upair etc.
Upsmash is pretty much always good if your opponent gives you the opening.
Tl;dr grab if they're on the ground and just hit them with nair/upsmash if they're in the air.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
I was reading from Lucky that he thinks Dair is the best move to use vs Falco a lot, specifically vs Westballz or something. Do you know more or agree on that?Spidermad, I think pengie got it covered
When your opponent is at 0% as fox, I assume you mean that the oppponent can CC a lot of your options.
If they're on the ground, focus on using grab. You can also drill, do extremely delayed and spaced aerials, or shine.
Another thing to do when your opponent is at 0% is look for opportunities where they can't crouch cancel. Namely, when your opponent jumps, they can no longer CC, so you gain access to being able to nair bair upair etc.
Upsmash is pretty much always good if your opponent gives you the opening.
Tl;dr grab if they're on the ground and just hit them with nair/upsmash if they're in the air.
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2atxf9/at_evo_2014_i_went_and_asked_top_fox_players_for/
I see Pengie already made some comments on it
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c..._i_went_and_asked_top_fox_players_for/ciz97h2
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Druggedfox
Smash Champion
It depends on the playstyle of the falco. Falco's who crouch a lot, and stay on the ground will be easy to abuse with drill.
On the other hand, all of falco's moves will beat your drill, and any trade will go in his favor. He can also SDI ofc, but most players are usually too busy trying to CC shine if they play falco. I still prefer to grab to beat CC since it's just generally less finnicky. It's also worth noting that even a frame perfect drill-->shine on shield loses to a perfect shine out of shield from falco.
In the current metagame, drill probably is more than good enough, and lucky's probably right. That said, grabbing will be a lot more consistent if your opponent is responding well. I usually respond to CC by spacing well, baiting out counter attacks from falco, and making him feel uncomfortable just sitting there. If he just crouches he can't move...and does he really want to be a sitting duck vs fox who's already a lot faster than him? CC is'nt really an issue if you just stop attacking and play with your opponent's reactions, but if you wanna go go go and attack all the time...you pretty much have to drill.
Pretty much, it just depends how you want to play and what you ultimately think is better. I don't favor that approach to the game, but that's just me.
On the other hand, all of falco's moves will beat your drill, and any trade will go in his favor. He can also SDI ofc, but most players are usually too busy trying to CC shine if they play falco. I still prefer to grab to beat CC since it's just generally less finnicky. It's also worth noting that even a frame perfect drill-->shine on shield loses to a perfect shine out of shield from falco.
In the current metagame, drill probably is more than good enough, and lucky's probably right. That said, grabbing will be a lot more consistent if your opponent is responding well. I usually respond to CC by spacing well, baiting out counter attacks from falco, and making him feel uncomfortable just sitting there. If he just crouches he can't move...and does he really want to be a sitting duck vs fox who's already a lot faster than him? CC is'nt really an issue if you just stop attacking and play with your opponent's reactions, but if you wanna go go go and attack all the time...you pretty much have to drill.
Pretty much, it just depends how you want to play and what you ultimately think is better. I don't favor that approach to the game, but that's just me.
Pengie
Smash Lord
As I mentioned in that reddit post, drill takes a lot of situational awareness/reactions to use well so that you don't end up ****ing yourself over for drilling when they SDI your drills. Once you've got that down though drill becomes a really good move since, even in the worst case scenario, you get a favorable mixup situation for hitting them with it.
BO/\K
Smash Apprentice
Fox has a really good dash dance he can use to overwhelm his opponent's space. At low percents, you can DD aggressively if you're also at low percents and punish your opponents attempts to approach with a grab. Kirbykaze posted a nice write-up about USING dash dance and not mindlessly wiggling the control stick: http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-advice-questions-topic.98202/page-712#post-15241821
Really pay attention to how good foxes DD. It's one of the most nuanced and powerful parts of playing fox (or any DD character like Marth or Falcon)
Drilling is down air. It beats CC and will net you a shine which always nets you some sort of advantage (waveshine->grab/upsmash/utilt, knockdown->tech chase, splitting ICs).
Sinji
Smash Master
Let go of the shine input as soon as you did the command into an aerial, wave dash in place. It takes time to react to it, but you'll get it in time.
Bones0
Smash Legend
So I got bopped pretty hard by a Ganon at a tournament yesterday. It was my first time playing a Ganon, and I think I learned a lot.
Apparently you can't shieldgrab his side-b which caught me off guard twice. I assume the best option is to roll/wavedash oos away? Or is wavedash oos into grab/shine/whatever an option? This is all assuming his side-b's into my shield of course.
Also, I had a hard time transitioning from the ledge to the stage. I think it was more of a mental block because he would space those hard hitting fairs which I've never had to deal with before. I assume I would just bait out a fair and ledgedash back on? What about just rolling on stage?
DI'ing his grabs...I was pretty nervous but if I remember correctly I had trouble with that.
I also assume upthrow -> upair is usually the best option at mid percents and above (unless you're opting for stage position over damage)?
Sorry for all of the questions, I'd try this out myself but it's late at night and can't play right now.
Apparently you can't shieldgrab his side-b which caught me off guard twice. I assume the best option is to roll/wavedash oos away? Or is wavedash oos into grab/shine/whatever an option? This is all assuming his side-b's into my shield of course.
Also, I had a hard time transitioning from the ledge to the stage. I think it was more of a mental block because he would space those hard hitting fairs which I've never had to deal with before. I assume I would just bait out a fair and ledgedash back on? What about just rolling on stage?
DI'ing his grabs...I was pretty nervous but if I remember correctly I had trouble with that.
I also assume upthrow -> upair is usually the best option at mid percents and above (unless you're opting for stage position over damage)?
Sorry for all of the questions, I'd try this out myself but it's late at night and can't play right now.
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In simpler terms, you're holding down on the control stick for too long. Release it quicker.
T r a n
Smash Cadet
You might be able to sneak an upsmash OoS, but I'm not sure, I feel like you can though because upsmash range is pretty big. If not, you can react to the side b and literally grab, upsmash, or even shine it before it hits you, it's really funny when you do it. Edit: didn't see the assume he side b's into shield part. There's 17 frames of cool down on it, so you could try to wavedash out of shield on it, but since it would take 14 frames to perform an action (jump startup=4 frames wavedash=10 frames before you can do anything), I think your only options to punish are jab and shine, shine being the best most likely.
As far as the ledge goes, it can be tough, but from what I've been thinking, you just have to look at how the ganon spaces himself. If he's really close, you just have to invincible ledge dash to grab, up smash, turnaround utilt/normal utilt, or shine. That beats everything, obviously. If he spaces himself just out of your invincible ledge dash range, you can shield (after ILD) in anticipation of the bair/fair, and then do a shine out of shield or roll once he hits your shield. Fair -> jab has a 5 frame window if he does it perfectly I believe, so you can do either of those in time. If you think his fairs aren't the latest possible, you could maybe upsmash oos or shield grab (depending on spacing).
I believe you wanna DI his dthrow behind him, not sure about uthrow though. This is something I don't know much about.
uthrow uair is alright I guess, I prefer bair because getting ganon off stage asap is generally a good idea since his recovery sucks, but if the bair won't hit him off stage yet, then yeah, you could probably uair.
A couple, I guess.
http://smashboards.com/threads/2014-ssbm-compendium-of-knowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/
^fox's uthrow is in the chaingrab section.
http://smashboards.com/threads/compilation-of-matchup-guides.341532/
^for Marth's uthrow
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Also guys, does anyone know if there are any guaranteed combos or reactionary tech chases with fthrow or bthrow on certain characters/percents? I noticed they both are not DI'iable in Yuna's Spectacular DI Guide, so I was wondering if there's anything cool you can do.
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Red Rice
Smash Journeyman
Bones0
Smash Legend
You usually want to do the laser and FF as early as possible to minimize the time spent in the air, while ensuring the laser comes out before you land. You'll want to delay the laser input for lower lasers when the opponent's character is short (or has a short DD/WD animation like Marth/Sheik). Beyond that, it's not a big deal.
You can use X if you want. It's just going to be a little harder than Y because it's further and the A button gets in the way.
Utilt.
SNEAKY_URKEL
Smash Apprentice
What are some things I can do to make my Fox go a lot faster? I feel like my Fox is really sluggish.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
On no DI uptilt combos, and SH nair combos on every DI.
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Sensei
Smash Lord
Are you trying to move quickly through a stage with platforms? As long as you are running my mashing the stick at a specific direction, you are going maximum horizontal speed. If you want to move quickly from platform to platform, just practice doing perfect wavelands by jumping up through the platform and quickly doing a wavedash as soon as fox is above it.
L__
Smash Master
Sinji
Smash Master
Anybody try out falling uair>fair against marth around 10%? I got about 33-40% with it. I'm trying out some new things in a falco way of fighting marth like when PPMD uthrow>fair against Mew2King. I think spacies are interlinked with each other more than we know.
You can, but Y is considered optimal because of it's proximity to b, also makes SHDLs much more doable.
T r a n
Smash Cadet
So how do you deal with Falco's that like to laser under platforms? I've been resorting a lot to full hop drills/bairs to get over lasers and staying super aggro on top of them as soon as I get a tech chase situation, but at the last tournament I went to I was eliminated by two different falcos that basically hid under platforms and lasered. I know working on powershields is a big part of the matchup, but what should I do until I can get really good powershields?
What I did a lot of the time was full jump towards the platform they were camping either: A) land in front and shield, then punish with shine OoS or wd OoS or B) double jump bait/ shine double jump waveland (onto platform) and figure things out from there.
Are there any better options, or am I forced to learn how to powershield better? Should I camp on top of the platforms and force them up to me, so I can come down? What do I do if this doesn't work or they have the lead? Any help would be appreciated.
What I did a lot of the time was full jump towards the platform they were camping either: A) land in front and shield, then punish with shine OoS or wd OoS or B) double jump bait/ shine double jump waveland (onto platform) and figure things out from there.
Are there any better options, or am I forced to learn how to powershield better? Should I camp on top of the platforms and force them up to me, so I can come down? What do I do if this doesn't work or they have the lead? Any help would be appreciated.
Kaeon
Smash Cadet
Dash dance on the top platform, and wait for him to come up. Have a good punish for his ascent, or shai drop through or run off, whichever is safest. The only big tech requirement there is shai dropping, but if you're willing to learn powershielding I promise you that tool has crazy good potential in the right hands.
Pengie
Smash Lord
Expanding on that, another good way to get off of the top platform if you went up there to try and force them to come to you is to SH or FJ and then FF through the platform. This is a pretty good way to get down to because you have a good degree of control of how far in one direction you can go because you can do things like SH backwards before the fast fall and use the backwards jump momentum to go further in that direction.
As far as dealing with Falco's hiding under platforms and shooting lasers (aka what 90% of mid level Falco's are gonna do) there's a couple of things that you could do to deal with it.
You can run directly at him and force him to respond to you. This is obviously better if you can Powershield well, but it isn't absolutely necessary. Try to pay attention at which distance relative to you the Falco likes to move and how he likes to move.
If he doesn't move out from under the platform when you get close enough to jump on it they you have a nice mixup situation set for him where you can either FJ at him and either land on the platform, or you could FJ at him and FF through the platform with either an aerial or no aerial so you can maintain pressure up close to him. Ideally you'll want to wait until he shoots a laser before jumping to or through the platform so you can get closer to him as he's committed to the laser. From here, standing on the side platform is a pretty god position to be in as long as you aren't directly in the path of Falco's FJ because this means that he can't easily jump shine you. If he tries to get into a position to do so, you can do something like SH and FF through the platform and bair him as he tries to get in position or you could do a shai drop nair at him. If he tries to retreat further back then that's pretty good because you just made him give up space, while being in a very good position to prevent his forward movement so try to hold that position as well as you can. Another nice thing about standing on the side platform is that it's easier to catch Falco's that like to FJ out of situations where they're cornered which can be really annoying to deal with.
Overall, I think that jumping to the side platform that Falco is hiding under is a really good move as long as it doesn't put you in a position to be easily shined because you get to keep a lot of your options open while being a direct threat to Falco. If you can't really get on to the platform with out putting yourself in a position where you can A) avoid getting shined easily or B) avoid giving up your stage control (i.e. staying in front of him) this is a good place to do the FJ fastfall trough the platform to hit him in the same manner that you'd do a FJ aerial over the laser as if the platform wasn't there. If you're gonna do this make sure you can do stuff like FJ, FF through the platform, and still get a nair out. Depending on which stage it is, this can either be no big deal, or surprisingly difficult because the lower the platform is, the faster you have to let go of the control stick from the FF to get a nair out.
Ultimately the way I think it should play out is, if they're hiding deep under the platform, then Fox gets to jump on the platform with relatively little risk and from there he can hold that position extremely well and he as a lot of ways to convert that position into hits. On the other hand, if Falco is in a more shallow position under the platform then he doesn't really get the added benefit of hiding under the platform because you can sort of treat it like it isn't there by doing stuff like rainbow nairs or drills like you would on a stage like FD.
One of the ways that Falco likes to deal with you jumping to side platforms to deal with him hiding under them is to shoot high lasers to stop your FJ. This can get really annoying to deal with if you aren't used to looking for them, but once you do get used to seeing it you should start mixing in running under the high lasers as he SHs if you see him try to go for them. From this you can either grab him or go for a running shine to score a knockdown and pressure depending on how close you were to him initially.
Also, if you don't feel like dealing with this whole scenario in the first place, you can jump on to the top platform and see if that will force them to try and interact with you since Falco has a hard time trying to hit someone on the top platform. From here you can either try to hit him as he's trying to hit you, or, if you don't want to risk that going south, focus on getting yourself off of the platform and forcing things to go back to neutral so you can hit Falco before he can get under a platform again. As a bonus, if Falco doesn't really want to engage you while you're on the top platform, you can go from the top platform to the side platform that he's hiding under very safely so you can easily transition to the stuff I was talking about a few paragraphs up if the situation calls for it.
As far as dealing with Falco's hiding under platforms and shooting lasers (aka what 90% of mid level Falco's are gonna do) there's a couple of things that you could do to deal with it.
You can run directly at him and force him to respond to you. This is obviously better if you can Powershield well, but it isn't absolutely necessary. Try to pay attention at which distance relative to you the Falco likes to move and how he likes to move.
If he doesn't move out from under the platform when you get close enough to jump on it they you have a nice mixup situation set for him where you can either FJ at him and either land on the platform, or you could FJ at him and FF through the platform with either an aerial or no aerial so you can maintain pressure up close to him. Ideally you'll want to wait until he shoots a laser before jumping to or through the platform so you can get closer to him as he's committed to the laser. From here, standing on the side platform is a pretty god position to be in as long as you aren't directly in the path of Falco's FJ because this means that he can't easily jump shine you. If he tries to get into a position to do so, you can do something like SH and FF through the platform and bair him as he tries to get in position or you could do a shai drop nair at him. If he tries to retreat further back then that's pretty good because you just made him give up space, while being in a very good position to prevent his forward movement so try to hold that position as well as you can. Another nice thing about standing on the side platform is that it's easier to catch Falco's that like to FJ out of situations where they're cornered which can be really annoying to deal with.
Overall, I think that jumping to the side platform that Falco is hiding under is a really good move as long as it doesn't put you in a position to be easily shined because you get to keep a lot of your options open while being a direct threat to Falco. If you can't really get on to the platform with out putting yourself in a position where you can A) avoid getting shined easily or B) avoid giving up your stage control (i.e. staying in front of him) this is a good place to do the FJ fastfall trough the platform to hit him in the same manner that you'd do a FJ aerial over the laser as if the platform wasn't there. If you're gonna do this make sure you can do stuff like FJ, FF through the platform, and still get a nair out. Depending on which stage it is, this can either be no big deal, or surprisingly difficult because the lower the platform is, the faster you have to let go of the control stick from the FF to get a nair out.
Ultimately the way I think it should play out is, if they're hiding deep under the platform, then Fox gets to jump on the platform with relatively little risk and from there he can hold that position extremely well and he as a lot of ways to convert that position into hits. On the other hand, if Falco is in a more shallow position under the platform then he doesn't really get the added benefit of hiding under the platform because you can sort of treat it like it isn't there by doing stuff like rainbow nairs or drills like you would on a stage like FD.
One of the ways that Falco likes to deal with you jumping to side platforms to deal with him hiding under them is to shoot high lasers to stop your FJ. This can get really annoying to deal with if you aren't used to looking for them, but once you do get used to seeing it you should start mixing in running under the high lasers as he SHs if you see him try to go for them. From this you can either grab him or go for a running shine to score a knockdown and pressure depending on how close you were to him initially.
Also, if you don't feel like dealing with this whole scenario in the first place, you can jump on to the top platform and see if that will force them to try and interact with you since Falco has a hard time trying to hit someone on the top platform. From here you can either try to hit him as he's trying to hit you, or, if you don't want to risk that going south, focus on getting yourself off of the platform and forcing things to go back to neutral so you can hit Falco before he can get under a platform again. As a bonus, if Falco doesn't really want to engage you while you're on the top platform, you can go from the top platform to the side platform that he's hiding under very safely so you can easily transition to the stuff I was talking about a few paragraphs up if the situation calls for it.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
since the question was already addressed a bunch i won't say much... Simple answer is take center stage, put your back to him and your shield up, then pressure him with your FJ, DJ, drifting, backair, and uptilt. You can suffocate him under a platform with good vertical mixups if you take center stage and put your back to him
Diana's Safe Landing
Smash Apprentice
In edgeguard situations when your opponent is recovering is it better to get the ledge as soon as possible and refresh invincibility with fire stall as needed or is it better to wait and grab the ledge a single time as they get closer? I was watching mang0 and noticed that he never firestalls in edgeguards and I find myself doing it all the time..
Also, what do people of think of [Forward WD-> Ftilt] in the neutral game when the opponent is at higher percents?
Also, what do people of think of [Forward WD-> Ftilt] in the neutral game when the opponent is at higher percents?
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Just regular jumping (not the tournament winner) is probably quicker and a better option in general, and you can do do bairs and such much quicker. It also has a slight mind game aspect to it. Jumping is REALLY good for baiting. For example, you knock a Marth off of the ledge, he's side-b'ing or doing whatever he's doing. You jump once or twice which not only grants invincibility frames but also mixes up the mental aspect. Firefox stalls aren't good.
I just realized I'm terrible at articulating my words and explaining myself clearly
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Bones0
Smash Legend
Shine has a lot of lag when you reflect something. In the case of lasers specifically, it actually leaves you at a frame disadvantage. If you shine Falco's SHL as he lands in near you, you get stuck in shine and he suffers minimal stun with enough time to run up and grab you or attack above your head to hit you as you JC.
T r a n
Smash Cadet
Thanks for the tips guys! I've definitely got a lot more to think about/practice now :]
Red Rice
Smash Journeyman
@
Diana's Safe Landing
Fox's ftilt is amazing. Especially when edgeguarding. But in terms of neutral, I like to opt for jab > ftilt. Darc tells me that it's a frame trap
Diana's Safe Landing
Fox's ftilt is amazing. Especially when edgeguarding. But in terms of neutral, I like to opt for jab > ftilt. Darc tells me that it's a frame trap
Red Rice
Smash Journeyman
How do you guys capitalize on a powershield? I always feel like I'm stuck in the shield for a few frames after I powershield Falco's lasers. Unless I'm playing Marth and get a dashing powershield grab...
Bones0
Smash Legend
You have no shield stun when you powershield projectiles.
Pengie
Smash Lord
My go to follow ups for powershielding something like Falco's laser are WD OoS either towards them if I don't think I'll get hit by a follow up move or immediate FJ if it looks like they're gonna try to do something like shoot a low laser -> SH dair over the PSed laser to catch me in my shield or trying to move forward.