Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[T r a n]

I need some help in the Doc matchup. When I play Doc I get zoned out very easily by camping with pills which I know shouldn't work that well against Fox. I also have trouble finding combos as he jumps out of a lot of stuff I try. I seem to get crouch cancelled to downsmash in this mu too so I've been trying to put some laser or throw damage on him before I hit him. Lastly, whats the optimal way to edgeguard Doc when he's coming back with a jump throwing pills? Any advice in general for this mu would help a lot thanks

I'm not very familiar with the Doc matchup, but I know that as far as combos go, you're only combos are waveshine (with a walk or run after the waveshine) up smash and up tilt to bair/uair combos, as well as basic nair combos (up throw up air doesn't work, if you get grabs, go for stage position or dthrow tech reads). You'll have to win the neutral a lot as far as I know. His dsmash comes out frame 5, so if you've been reading the posts about CC'ing earlier in this thread you'll know that's one frame better than Samus, so there is a 2 frame window for Doc to dsmash your latest possible nair-shine. I would personally go for drills, if you can (these are harder to hit with, so you shouldn't fish for them too much) as well as full hop bairs work really well. Bair outranges at lot of Doc's moves. Lasers are a good idea, unless the Doc rushes you down, Doc's nairplane game isn't that bad, so don't underestimate it.

For edgeguarding, I honestly don't know that much. His magnet for grabbing the ledge is super good, so it's hard to hit him out of sweetspotting, so you might have to grab ledge. I've heard you can do the marth slayer (Light shield at the ledge and angle down and away from stage) to beat the pill recovery. Basically the pills hit your shield, and the auto shield DI that happens when you angle your shield lets you fall to the ledge. I've never done this personally, but I've heard it works. I'll have to try it out next time I play a good Doc.

I'm also gonna post a vid in this thread (in like 20 minutes maybe) where I play the best Doc in Michigan (one of the only Docs in Michigan, but whatever, haha) and maybe you can watch that, but maybe you're better than me at the matchup

 

[T r a n]

Hi guys, I have 3 sets for you guys to critique if you guys want to. I'll do my own critique if it helps at all (I stopped because it took over an hour to do the write up for just 1 set... but if you guys really want it I'll do it at some point this week). If you guys could critique my sets vs 1der and KJH a little more that would be great, but you're welcome to critique my set vs shibby. I am blue fox for all these videos, by the way.

Shibby vs. Tran

KJH vs Tran (I don't know why the video isn't separated)

1der vs Tran

 

[Zylo]

Is drill->jab->upsmash a viable kill setup against characters I can't waveshine upsmash?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Viable but not reliable

 

[Jonte]

Don't do it, that'll be killing your left thumb, use Y or X. Y is easier to slide to B, since you have to go from X to B without A.

You can actually go from X to B hitting A in the process and still do SHDL, that's the way I do it

 

[Zylo]

*Edit, nevermind*

 

[Death Arcana]

my controller is getting the infamous light shield problem in the L button
is there any threads to help with this?
i do a have a triwing to open and a secondary controller to take parts from
but i hope thats a last resort <_<

 

[Pengie]

The easy way to fix your trigger getting stuck on light shielding is holding the trigger down a bit while resetting the controller. Depending on how far down it's held during the reset, you can either disable light shielding on the trigger completely or you could change the threshold for light shielding to be pressing the button lower than the default.

 

[Bones0]

my controller is getting the infamous light shield problem in the L button
is there any threads to help with this?
i do a have a triwing to open and a secondary controller to take parts from
but i hope thats a last resort <_<

Just open it up and it should be pretty obvious what's wrong. When this happened to me, I discovered that the rubber between the trigger and circuit board was punctured so it would stick a little. I just replaced it with a rubber piece from another controller and it was good as new.

 

[Death Arcana]

sorry i don't know anything about the insides of a controller so it won't be obvious to me.
but thanks ill take a look at it

The easy way to fix your trigger getting stuck on light shielding is holding the trigger down a bit while resetting the controller. Depending on how far down it's held during the reset, you can either disable light shielding on the trigger completely or you could change the threshold for light shielding to be pressing the button lower than the default.

would i have to do this everytime i use my controller on a different setup?

 

[Pengie]

yes you would have to. just remember to hold the trigger down a bit whenever you plug your controller in and you should be good.

 

[Bones0]

sorry i don't know anything about the insides of a controller so it won't be obvious to me.
but thanks ill take a look at it

My point was there isn't really much to know. Any physical differences between your triggers will be a clear indicator of the issue. Even if you aren't sure what the problem is, cleaning the plastic on your triggers might be sufficient for preventing the sticking.

 

[L__]

Is drill->jab->upsmash a viable kill setup against characters I can't waveshine upsmash?

i like drill -> up tilt

dunno if it works against everyone

its p gud against puff

e.g. drill pressure on shield

if hit, up tilt. no hit = more pressure l0l.

i think weight affects hitstun or sth would like to hear from someone that can confirm/deny

 

[Vel0city]

not sure if this is the best place to ask for this, but how does one work on adapting to match ups?

edit: by this I mean mid match, like adapting to someone elses play style or something.

 

[Bones0]

i like drill -> up tilt

dunno if it works against everyone

its p gud against puff

e.g. drill pressure on shield

if hit, up tilt. no hit = more pressure l0l.

i think weight affects hitstun or sth would like to hear from someone that can confirm/deny

Yes, weight affects KB and hitstun.

 

[zz_halim]

Hey i've got a question about firefox stalling.
I'm trying to consistently get the "perfect" up-B stall where Fox is up-B-ing just where he would normally hang, and not above. The problem I have with this for the most part is tap jump.
Is it possible to up-B just when the jump is registered, so he up-Bs INSTEAD of jumping?
Or do i have to tilt the control stick carefully so he doesn't jump? this seems very difficult to me.

And what is your way of doing it?

 

[Bones0]

Hey i've got a question about firefox stalling.
I'm trying to consistently get the "perfect" up-B stall where Fox is up-B-ing just where he would normally hang, and not above. The problem I have with this for the most part is tap jump.
Is it possible to up-B just when the jump is registered, so he up-Bs INSTEAD of jumping?
Or do i have to tilt the control stick carefully so he doesn't jump? this seems very difficult to me.

And what is your way of doing it?

You can input up and B on the same frame, but that is hard to do consistently. I tilt up slightly while also trying to press B asap to increase my odds of not DJing as much as possible.

 

[Berble]

Is letting go of the ledge with shine to regrab with firefox slower than letting go regularly? Can you get a fully invincible regrab letting go with shine?

 

[Bones0]

Is letting go of the ledge with shine to regrab with firefox slower than letting go regularly? Can you get a fully invincible regrab letting go with shine?

Shining is obviously slower than simply letting go and up-Bing, but you can do both with full invul. You have to let go of the ledge on the first possible frame in order to get full invul into a regrab, but you have 13 frames of leniency to input the up-B (more than enough to shine or DJ first) because the up-B is prevented from regrabbing until later in the charge animation. When you can regrab is based on when you let go of the ledge. Letting go 1 frame after perfect will leave you vulnerable for 1 frame before regrabbing. Letting go 2 frames after will leave you vulnerable for 2, etc.

Spoiler

Source: Kadano

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

when shining another spacie at low percent, can someone DI it so that they go farther? it seems like sometimes i can't follow up with thunders, but maybe that is just me being too slow that time.

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

Depending on their DI/SDI/ASDI and the spacing on your shine they can end up different lengths from you. To get the jab, work on executing as fast as possible and doing the longest wavedash possible, preferably a perfect one.

 

[Bones0]

when shining another spacie at low percent, can someone DI it so that they go farther? it seems like sometimes i can't follow up with thunders, but maybe that is just me being too slow that time.

You cannot increase or decrease KB, but you can ASDI or SDI to end up at a further distance from the attacker. Similarly, your spacing when you initially hit them can make it more or less difficult to reach them with a WD. If you are right up next to them when you shine, it's much easier to followup than if they were on the edge of your shine's hitbox. Most of the time you are unable to reach them for a Thunder's combo (assuming they are missing the tech), it's probably because you aren't getting the crispiest WD possible. Practice getting frame perfect WDs with the most shallow angle possible.

 

[Jim Morrison]

kenkerstino

 

[Dos_Equis]

Are there any videos of people practicing stage movement that you guys know of off the top of your head? I've been setting up "obstacle courses" where I do like a specific ledge / platform / stage movement and then try and do it as fast / smooth as possible, but my movement / neutral is still eh.

Any sort of movement video will help. Even if it's DD/WDing on FD. Just need some ideas to get me going.

 

[Super]

Whats the best response to dealing with Falco lasering under the side platforms in neutral? Should Fox just maneuver around the platforms and wait it out? Or approach from above the side platform?

 

[sadistic]

I'm trying to learn invincible ledge dash, but when I do them they look a little janky. Does anyone know a way to test (by yourself) if they're invincible or not or have a guide on invincible ledge dashes?

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

Are there any videos of people practicing stage movement that you guys know of off the top of your head? I've been setting up "obstacle courses" where I do like a specific ledge / platform / stage movement and then try and do it as fast / smooth as possible, but my movement / neutral is still eh.

Any sort of movement video will help. Even if it's DD/WDing on FD. Just need some ideas to get me going.

You get better at moving by recognizing situations better/faster.

For consistency and fun stress relief practice look up some lovage techskill vids and emulate those.

 

[Bones0]

I'm trying to learn invincible ledge dash, but when I do them they look a little janky. Does anyone know a way to test (by yourself) if they're invincible or not or have a guide on invincible ledge dashes?

You can pause and see if you are flashing white just after the ledgedash. I recommend trying to download the 20xx Hack Pack for training if you have or can acquire a Wii. That lets you enable debug mode and your character will glow blue when they are invincible, just like the roll/spotdodge gifs in the hitbox/frame data threads.

 

[zz_halim]

How do you get the crispiest nairs?

 

[L__]

by preheating the fryer until the temp is at 375 degrees fahrenheit then make sure you don't dip your nairs for too long

 

[Kadano]

I'm trying to learn invincible ledge dash, but when I do them they look a little janky. Does anyone know a way to test (by yourself) if they're invincible or not or have a guide on invincible ledge dashes?

Plug in a second controller. Select Mewtwo and put him close to the ledge on which you are practicing. Have him charge neutral-B. Do your ledgedash and upsmash afterwards. If you hit him without getting hit yourself with a consistency of 70% or more, your ledgedash is fine.
If that’s too easy for you, try forward smash instead. Or dashing through him – if you manage the distance consistently, put him farther away from the ledge.

Credits to Ice for this method / trick.

 

[Bones0]

Plug in a second controller. Select Mewtwo and put him close to the ledge on which you are practicing. Have him charge up-B. Do your ledgedash and upsmash afterwards. If you hit him without getting hit yourself with a consistency of 70% or more, your ledgedash is fine.
If that’s too easy for you, try forward smash instead. Or dashing through him – if you manage the distance consistently, put him farther away from the ledge.

Credits to Ice for this method / trick.

That's Mewtwo's neutral B, ya n00b.

 

[bearsfan092]

Fox Marth question. I've been playing Frootloop a lot lately, and he's been working on his Marth.

So my entire Melee life, I've been under the assumption that I can waveshine>>grab Marth, and given my experiences when I was living in Pittsburgh, I got away with it. Frootloop on the other hand shuts me down if he sees it coming. He's not crouch cancelling, but rather he's getting out of shine hitstun before I get the grab. I asked him if I was just slow or if it's not a true combo. He said it wasn't a true combo. I can still land it occasionally if I catch him off guard.

So that screwed over a good chunk of my gameplan vs Marth since it was a good way of setting up grabs. I went home and checked out a couple Fox Marth videos before bed, and sure enough I can see SFAT doing it to PPU a few times. Idk if PPU wasn't expecting it or couldn't react in the frame window, and I don't really know how to calculate hitstun frames to do the analysis myself.

So question: is waveshine>>grab an actual combo on Marth?

 

[zz_halim]

i guess if Marth DIs out he can grab you before you do

 

[Kadano]

So question: is waveshine>>grab an actual combo on Marth?

It depends on what you do between the wavedash and the grab. If you dash to close up for 8 frames or less and do a JC grab, it’s a true combo. Not even multiple SDI on Marth’s part would escape it, assuming that your execution is good.

But yeah, that shouldn’t come as a surprise considering how Fox can do things like this to NTSC Marth (guaranteed and true combo, but requires extreme precision):

 

[Bones0]

Fox Marth question. I've been playing Frootloop a lot lately, and he's been working on his Marth.

So my entire Melee life, I've been under the assumption that I can waveshine>>grab Marth, and given my experiences when I was living in Pittsburgh, I got away with it. Frootloop on the other hand shuts me down if he sees it coming. He's not crouch cancelling, but rather he's getting out of shine hitstun before I get the grab. I asked him if I was just slow or if it's not a true combo. He said it wasn't a true combo. I can still land it occasionally if I catch him off guard.

So that screwed over a good chunk of my gameplan vs Marth since it was a good way of setting up grabs. I went home and checked out a couple Fox Marth videos before bed, and sure enough I can see SFAT doing it to PPU a few times. Idk if PPU wasn't expecting it or couldn't react in the frame window, and I don't really know how to calculate hitstun frames to do the analysis myself.

So question: is waveshine>>grab an actual combo on Marth?

You shined him out of the air. As soon as he lands, all of the hitstun is cancelled and he can grab immediately.

 

[bearsfan092]

Did not shine him out of the air. Happened out of a drill. Thanks for the help Kadano

EDIT: Hm, maybe it was out of a nair. Will figure it out. There's also the possibility that I was just slow that particular night.

 

[knightpraetor]

my memories as a marth main say that waveshine grab is not a true combo if marth smash DIs the shine, but is a true combo otherwise. however, even if he smash DI's the shine, he is at frame disadvantage. You should be able to hardcore punish him the vast majority of the time. What's he doing? spotdodge/rolling out?

i'm more curious whether fox with a running shine can true combo even with Smash DI.

i have a hard time believing a marth gets the smash DI 100% of the time though.

 

[FrootLoop]

Well since it was my Marth I can safely say that the shine was hitting me while I was in the air.

 

[SpeedyJ]

How do you escape Marth's u-throw chain grab as Fox and what % can Fox be chain grabbed until?

Thanks