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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

EWC

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That is too slow. The extra time you spend turning around puts them farther away by enough that walk->upsmash won't reach them before they land.
 

Druggedfox

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Yea, you have to dash upsmash on the DI behind. It's pretty hard, but definitely doable.

Also, it's not a perfect guide but:

1) Regrab all DI away or in front with dash grab until around 65ish in my experience
2) If they do a SLIGHT DI in front/behind, you can just grab, walk grab, or turn around grab until mid % (Think around 40-50). At that point, you can dash dance grab the slight DI. If they don't go too far you can also uptilt regrab.
3) On no DI regrab until around 50, or do turn around uptilt to regrab.

If they do no DI at the point where you can't chaingrab them anymore, do a TURN AROUND uptilt (if you don't, they can DI it far enough away that you can't regrab/combo optimally at certain %s). Generally after that you want to go for one of two things:

1) Nair-->run/WD to their landing, tech chase on reaction into a regrab.
2) Go for a weak bair. If they DI up, you can regrab/upsmash/nair etc. If they DI down they'll often get you a tech chase or at worst a mixup situation (inherently going for the weak bair is a mixup, if you present the threat of a strong bair to send them off stage).

Ideally you want your chaingrab to end with grab-->Charge upsmash (combos at kill % on every DI, though no DI is a smaller window where it works and much harder to do. You can pivot charge upsmash to make it easier timing wise, but the inputs are harder). You can also end them with:
1)upthrow-->uptilt-->weak bair-->upsmash
2) upthrow-->weak aerial-->upsmash
3)Upthrow-->nair-->tech chase upsmash/grab-->charge upsmash

It's not detailed/perfect since I just sorta threw it together, but that should give at least a decent idea of how the combo game works on FD.
 

HarryTheChin

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Dec 17, 2007
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I LOVE playing Fox in friendlies. I may end up picking him up one day so I have decided I shall ask this question now rather than later

What is the most optimal way to SHDL?

I use x -> b, b but I pull it off 1/10 times. I heard that m2k does it that way as well but I'm thinking maybe analog up would be more efficient?
 

Wind

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I LOVE playing Fox in friendlies. I may end up picking him up one day so I have decided I shall ask this question now rather than later

What is the most optimal way to SHDL?

I use x -> b, b but I pull it off 1/10 times. I heard that m2k does it that way as well but I'm thinking maybe analog up would be more efficient?
X -> B is my preferred way of doing it and I can also reverse SHDL. However, it really just takes a lot of practice. I used to think that it was impossible to do, but now I pretty much don't miss it ever. Analog up is how my friend (who is better than me) does it, so I guess it boils down to personal preference. I don't see how you can reverse SHDL like that though.
 

T r a n

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Does anyone here practice up throw up airs in their tech skill routine? I've been having troubles nailing it against puffs lately because I don't jump fast enough. I know I can physically do it, because on the 20xx puff in training mode if I try like 20 times I'll eventually get an up throw up air at 70-80% that true combos (more than 2 hits). I'm just wondering if other people have this problem and if they practice it/how they practice it.

Also, if you guys do practice it, doesn't it affect your timing when you up throw heavier characters, like sheik or peach? I've found I can have a problem of doing charged up smashes because I press jump too early after playing against puff.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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The trick is to either dash or jump quicker after pressing up (throw). Throw animations take longer for heavy characters than light characters, and jigglypuff is one of the lightest. You have more time than you realize you have.
 
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Diana's Safe Landing

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Uthrow uair has so many different timings between when you jump, when you dash, when you double and when you uair. And all those change based on the weight of the character. You also have to memorize on what prevents it even works. And you have to do all these timings on reaction to their DI. Being able to 100 % land the combo on everyone is actually pretty hard
 

BTmoney

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Does anyone here practice up throw up airs in their tech skill routine? I've been having troubles nailing it against puffs lately because I don't jump fast enough. I know I can physically do it, because on the 20xx puff in training mode if I try like 20 times I'll eventually get an up throw up air at 70-80% that true combos (more than 2 hits). I'm just wondering if other people have this problem and if they practice it/how they practice it.

Also, if you guys do practice it, doesn't it affect your timing when you up throw heavier characters, like sheik or peach? I've found I can have a problem of doing charged up smashes because I press jump too early after playing against puff.
Yeah actually. I struggled a lot with hitting the DI away in the beginning. I dash and jump with the control stick and it makes it pretty easy. I practice uthrow-> follow up sometimes vs. Puff, peach, and esp falcon. Falcon weighs like x2 more than the characters I'm used to fighting lol and he's so deceptively heavy. It's all easy though, you just have to remember who you're fighting.
 
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T r a n

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haha, I guess I'll just have to practice on puff and adapt when I try to uthrow uair other people.

This is a question geared to bones or kadano, but if you're knowledgeable on the shield stun formula or move damage staling feel free to chime in.

So the formula for shield stun is:
(x+4.45)/2.235 = shield stun in frames
where x is damage of the move staled and the shield stun frames is rounded down.

My question is if shine does between 2 and 3 % (9 shines in a row makes shine do 2% every 4 or so shines from what I've seen), how do these fractional percents relate to the shield stun formula? Do you round up or down on the fractional percent? The reason why I ask this is because I want to know if you can roll out of doubleshine (between the two shines) given the shine is completely staled. The difference between 2 and 3% from what I've calculated is literally an entire frame.


shine does 3-4%
1 shine
2 hitlag
3 hitlag
4 hitlag
5 shield stun
6 shield stun
7 shield stun (JC)
8 jump squat
9 jump squat
10 shine

shine does 2%
1 shine
2 hitlag
3 hitlag
4 hitlag
5 shield stun
6 shield stun
7 jump cancel
8 jump squat
9 jump squat
10 shine

So as you can see, a 2% shine only has 2 frames of shield stun rounded down, so there's 3 frames where someone can act out of shield. All rolls are invincible on frame 4 (when the shine comes out). A 3% shine only has 2 frames where they can act out of shield, so they can't viably roll.

If any of my calcs are wrong let me know, I went through it fairly quickly.
 
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BTmoney

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Short answer yes (and yeah I studied all this stuff myself too). I asked hax this at bh4 cause I thought otherwise but he confirmed that if shine is stale then you cannot roll out if you get 2 one frame links right. If shine is not stale I believe it's a 2 frame and 1 frame window on the inputs (JCing the shine asap and doing the other one on the first frame available to leave you grounded).

No one's really consistent enough with that yet and I buffer roll all the time in practice. The hard part is getting the frame perfect jump cancel imo

I didn't really look at the calcs cause I'm on my phone and I learned this stuff (minus that one fact) 2 years ago and just memorized the practical stuff, forgot all the numbers. I never really calcd much myself, I just analyzed readily available information and trusted that it was right, and it was. You can probably find embarrassing walls of text from me about this in my early posts.
 
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tauKhan

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So the formula for shield stun is:
(x+4.45)/2.235 = shield stun in frames
where x is damage of the move staled and the shield stun frames is rounded down.

My question is if shine does between 2 and 3 % (9 shines in a row makes shine do 2% every 4 or so shines from what I've seen), how do these fractional percents relate to the shield stun formula? Do you round up or down on the fractional percent?
So the bolded part in your post is an answer to your question: staled damage is used and the amount of shield stun is rounded down.

Staling works like this: There are 9 effectual stale slots in the stack, and moves are always added to the top of the stack( I've heard the game maybe tracks more, but they don't matter). The first slot reduces damage by 9% (not melee percents) if you hit with the same move as the move in the first slot. The second one reduces by 8%, third one by 7% and so on. If multiple slots have the move you hit with, the percentages are added together.

Fresh shine does 5 dmg, and so fully staled shine does (1- (0,09 + 0,08 + ... + 0,01))*5 = 0,55*5 = 2,75 dmg. 2,75 dmg yields 3,2217... shield stun rounded down, which is 3 frames. So almost no character can roll out of perfect doubleshine.

As an additional tidbit, apparently puff's forward roll is invincible from frame 2 onwards for who knows what reason, so she can forward roll out. Or at least that's what the puff frame data thread claims.
 

T r a n

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So the bolded part in your post is an answer to your question: staled damage is used and the amount of shield stun is rounded down.

Staling works like this: There are 9 effectual stale slots in the stack, and moves are always added to the top of the stack( I've heard the game maybe tracks more, but they don't matter). The first slot reduces damage by 9% (not melee percents) if you hit with the same move as the move in the first slot. The second one reduces by 8%, third one by 7% and so on. If multiple slots have the move you hit with, the percentages are added together.

Fresh shine does 5 dmg, and so fully staled shine does (1- (0,09 + 0,08 + ... + 0,01))*5 = 0,55*5 = 2,75 dmg. 2,75 dmg yields 3,2217... shield stun rounded down, which is 3 frames. So almost no character can roll out of perfect doubleshine.

As an additional tidbit, apparently puff's forward roll is invincible from frame 2 onwards for who knows what reason, so she can forward roll out. Or at least that's what the puff frame data thread claims.
Wow! Thanks for the answer, I really appreciate it. My friend and I were super curious whether or not Hax was right, haha.
 

Druggedfox

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It's more accurate to say that it requires fox to perform two *just frames* rather than *one frame links*, for what it's worth.
 

Jim Morrison

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BSDvUjX_FU&list=UUKDC81_VQsIQcAGa8052WIw

1:06 - You know it's gonnabe coming a lot, but here's the first badly spaced N-air.

1:16 - The setup for the edgeguard was good, he dipped too deep and you shined him. During the edgeguard your main goal is killing him, so a small chance of killing him with a possibility of him grabbing the edge is worth more than an almost guaranteed 20%. Falcon (and Jeapie especially) is very heavy. What you could have done here was stand on the stage and just short hop a bit, making him respect your B-air and possibly weave back to the ledge and then you can F-smash him out of there. This would not kill him, but at least reset the situation. Now you grab the ledge and give him the free recovery, taking a single shine.

1:27 - This was actually something great by Jeapie and I want you to notice just how he baited you in. You were on the ledge and he was stomping on the low platform. We all know that the classic habit is to first shine-firefox stall once and then ledgedash on. He dropped through the platform but instantly jumped up. What registered to you was probably just him dropping through, making you want to N-air him as he hit the ground. This left you open for a big stomp.

1:38 - Back-air as an edgeguard is fine, but don't double jump it. Also, the spot you covered was misspaced, it only would have got him if he kept going forward. You saw Jeapie going for the high recovery. When Falcon's go for the high recovery, they always have weaving back in mind. If you just wait by the ledge and do nothing, it puts them in a very difficult spot where they have to choose without any input from your side. He wouldn't have gotten the edge cancel, so a free U-smash if he lands on stage, free F-smash (kill) if he goes back to the ledge. Staying grounded vs Falcon's recovery is always a smart idea otherwise he will trick you more easy.
1:41 - Props on the tech in this tourney set.

1:43 - What got you killed is actually pretty tricky. First off, recognize that if the platform wasn't there, Jeapie would have back-aired your Down-air with the hard hit and kill you at 128%. After this, you're both shielding on the platform. You've known Jeapie long enough, however, to know that shield drop is so easy for him. You have to adapt to that and remind yourself of that in the set constantly.

2:00 - Just want you to know, Jeapie missed the input there, instead of rolling, that was a shielddrop U-air that would have hit you. What you had before the fulljump Bair by you, you had Jeapie in his shield with his back towards you. You know his only option is shield dropping, anything else would be horrible. Think about what you could do in that situation, I'm not sure myself either. You could have shined on his shield instead of Back-air. The feeling on shieldstun would trigger the shield drop. You're using your 2nd jump above falcon now however, so it doesn't seem optimal... Think about what you can do there.

2:35 - :smash:

2:37 - Interesting, that's the 2nd time that Jeapie jumped up to the top platform and also the 2nd time you fell through, then went back up with nothing but a waveland. I expected you to maybe try for an Up-air here, as you saw him moving to the left platform, you could predict the jump to top. If you catch him with your U-air in his 2nd jump to the top platform, that could get pretty nasty. Just a note: Jeapie goes to the platform quite often after his opponent dies.
Referral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBcvhFq6yv0 @ 1:28, 4:23, 5:02, 6:50, 7:29 I feel like these were all punishable situations, so keep an eye out next time.

2:59 - I know what you're thinking, jumping on, wavelanding and regrabbing is cooler and possibly rewarding (it's not, if he just DI's off the platform), but really, after he lands there, don't jump up, ESPECIALLY on FoD. You're giving up basically a free U-air which could start a juggle. Just wait till he makes a move. If he shields it, on FoD up-airing from below is still great (except against shielddrop, hmmm...). Sometimes it's also better to opt for the U-smash on Falcon instead of grab after a waveshine.

3:05 - Again, wait on the ground and see what he does, U-air it.

3:48 - Stadium is a solid choice, I can only assume he banned FD.

3:55 - He hits a N-air. What happens next is just straight up **** and should immedeately get you thinking about how that happened. It wasn't missed techs or bad DI, it was you having a bad approach vs his N-air. Just something to know, Fox's SH N-air will NEVER EVER break through Falcon's N-air, so while a good move, it's never a good neutral approach in this matchup. In fact, it would be even better if you didn't approach. Just dash-dance around a bit, run to him with shield, wavedash back, in place, use platforms, move, etc. but don't commit to moves.

3:58 - You're in the middle of getting destroyed but you break out of the combo. Now what happens is that you lost your double jump and you're coming down, afraid of what might come next. You want to cover yourself with your D-air hitbox. Jeapie knows this and goes for the easy and hard read with the dashdance side B, continuing the punish. I would also have done the D-air there and get destroyed just like you... What you have to do is keep your calm and realize it might be a bait and quickly move out with a waveland back.

4:10 - Good ****, that was a very heavy punish on that whiffed grab. One thing you should definitely notice now is that Jeapie rolls under pressure quite a lot. This can help you greatly. Look at 4:07, you hit him with an aerial shine. With your character knowledge, you know it's not in your limits to continue any combo after shining in the air on a Falcon, so he will probably do something to get out. Falcon's roll is one of the easiest things to predict, and lo and behold, actually does roll! Make a mental note.

4:34 - You've had a few encounters with Jeapie here, but they keep resetting back to neutral. What you keep seeing is that Jeapie goes back up to a side platform and waits for you to come, drops/shielddrops and U-air and hits you. See 4:27 as well. Play back the 4:34 and pause for a second before you N-air in. Why was that N-air there? You had lots and lots of time to see him jump to the platform, so you know he's there. The only explanation I can guess is that you -guessed- that he would drop down with an U-air earlier (still doesn't fully explain the spacing on it). This is very telling about your thinking during the match. What you see here is someone not actually reacting to what their opponent is doing but someone reacting to what they think they would be doing. Reacting to what they actually do is definitely the smarter thing to do and try to work on that. Don't make any unnecessary commit to a laggy (attack) input unless they do it first, is a good rule of thumb to start practicing it.

4:45 - Also a good example. What happened here is that you just followed too slowly and this got a hefty punish. You missed your N-air. Why? It was a bait. Full hop N-air by Falcon has no landing lag at all and covers so much ground. You tried to punish the Knee landing lag (look closely, there wasn't any). This got you into lag, while he was free to punish you. Classic example of baiting someone while invulnerable.

5:24 - Was a good edgeguard. Good to see you waited him out and actually SAW the airdodge and went straight for it.

5:30 - Just something in general vs Falcon, it's also one of my bad habits, but teching in place is especially horrible vs Falcon, it's their most covered option. Rolling should cover about 3/4 of tech chase situations where he has full control.

5:39 - I'm actually quite impressed by your shield pressure here. You do nair>shine>wavedash back. I'm just gonna take that you were covering the roll there, which would have been a great adapt, because him rolling there would definitely be plausible (as you see on your next N-air that hit).

5:53 - Got the roll cover again, good job, just not fast enough. Shine is 1 frame so that should be your go-to punish when he rolls, it's the fastest before he gets his shield up and it's a decent punish (grab/usmash).

6:13 - One more shine :'(. He might have fallen off. What you did after the F-throw was very bad. You know there's no WAY you're gonna hit that shine, you've done this a million times and never shined a falcon off that. Well, if it might work, it's still not worth the risk, because look what happens after. You lose your second jump with a Falcon on the ledge below you. Well, just come up with an U-air and trade with you, you fall down for a tech, he stands up.

Good ****.
 
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Druggedfox

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1) If you're recovering from above the stage fairly high up and up-b, you have 3 different angles (primarily) to choose from and at most fsmash will cover 2: down forward, straight forward, and up forward.

2) If you choose to side-b, you have the option to shorten before you reach him, depending on the height and horizontal spacing

3) If you recover from below the stage, you can climb the wall of the stage with your up-b and tech the fsmash. If you tech very near the edge, you can just tech into an instant side-b. If he times the fsmash so that he hits you when you're a bit lower than the edge, you need to do the wall jump tech into a side-b.
 

Super

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Any advice on doing crisp/fastest variable distance DDs such as the infamous Mango-Armada one? Like mechanics/control stick movement? Seems like I need several DDs to start moving across the stage and not mess up the animation/DD
 

tauKhan

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what do I do against with sidesmash marth edgeguards? :o
I'll add to the other replies, that if you go for ledge tech, which is imo most often your best bet, learn to sdi tech the fsmashes, because sdi tech works at any percent. Also ledge tech jump by pressing :GCX:or :GCY: at the same time you input your tech, so you can focus on getting the optimal A/SDI and don't have to worry about the jump.
 

Cohenski

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Two areas of question:
1. What method does Hax use to double shine and double shine grab?
2. Esam is in my region, and I have played a few games with him. His missile game is very strong and he's been edge guarding me extremely effectively. How do I deal with missiles? What are safe approaches against Samus? What is important to keep in mind during the match up? What recovery options (as Fox) does Samus have the hardest time covering?
 

Druggedfox

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1) No clue what hax does, but every method of doing the inputs is pretty viable/reasonable. Using Y slide to B is probably the best way in general though. I personally use the control stick.

2) You need to put constant pressure on her to stop her from getting missiles out, or abuse platforms. Samus doesn't have a strong way to challenge you on platforms, unless she intercepts you going to a platform (Which requires a pretty aggressive read on her part).

As far as "safe approaches", it's hard to define. Generally keeping your back to samus, and focusing on spacing back air is very very strong. You can use nair, but more or less only if she's airborne. Grab is a great tool against samus, and upsmash will beat any of her air options pretty much.

Samus has a hard time covering a fox who recovers low and can tech uptilt consistently, up-b heights that she can't attack with missiles, and horizontally sweetspotted side-b (meaning you're literally as far away as possible when you side-b, its very hard to cover if you can't run off the stage with an aerial; samus is sort of slow)

In general you should keep in mind that samus doesn't actaully have strong approach options, and she's pretty weak in the air. You want to space/time your aerials to avoid being crouch canceled as well. The thing is, if she gets a missile out, suddenly her neutral and approach become pretty strong. In those situations you *generally* want to disengage, or IDEALLY you should have been pressuring her enough to stop her from getting a missile out in the first place. This doesn't mean you have to actually be attacking her, but rather means you always need to be in a position that *if* she shot a missile, you could either punish it OR gain a positional advantage from it (jump over it, and pressure with bair as it whiffs, etc).
 

EWC

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You can nair missiles and they will explode without hitting you. It's way better than shielding them or having to try to dodge them every time.
 

Wind

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So I have a fairly intermediate grasp on what to do against Jigglypuff, and I personally think that the Fox/Puff matchup is heavily on Fox's favor, and I can normally destroy most puffs I play, but most puffs I play are just not very high level. My concern is I'll eventually play a puff that can control space very well, and I won't know how to deal with it. I sometimes try to play Puff in friendlies to see if I can understand how her neutral game works but I just don't think I have a good grasp on it, and I feel like very high level puffs will exploit me in the neutral game.

This being said, what are things I should look out for in the neutral game against puff? I can SHDL spam all day long, but what do I watch out for on puffs approach? What do I do to make sure that I respect the back airs, while not giving up too much ground?
 

Estwood

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Grab him, throw him up, uair him a lot.

Don't get grabbed near the edge or anywhere on FD

To edgeguard: refresh invincibility then shine->bair from the edge to cover all options.


I could be more specific if you ask more specific
I've practiced with some people and the result is that it's pretty efficient, but sometimes it will trade with Marth's upB and kill me
 

CeLL

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Who all can we waveshine infinite? I know Peach, Link, and Zelda the easy way, but what about the ridiculously hard way that works on Marth?
 

Druggedfox

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...I will go ahead and say this is impractical and probably shouldn't worry about it, rather than thinking about the answer

If someone else wants to chime in, go for it >_>
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I know its possible to combo Marth with drill shines, but idk if its possible with just waveshines. If it is, you'd have to be quick and use dash->JC shine to maintain the combo
 

Druggedfox

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Kadano posted the gif or w/e, but it seemed pretty unclear if you could actually get *behind* marth with a no momentum shine starter, if he gets the SDI+ASDI away.

You could also do things like SDI in--> force a dash JC shine-->SDI away to keep fox in front of you twice.
 

JNova

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What do you guys think, are good ways to shield pressure people.
Most players obviously know, after an aerial comes shine, so they hold the shield.
So what do afterwards?
I usually try to go for those mix-ups:
Double-Shine to cover Shieldgrab
Shinegrab to cover holding Shield
Shine->Rising/Fadeaway-Aerial to cover Spot Dodge/Shieldgrab

Shine-Wavedash in is kinda meh to me and I only want to use it against characters like Marth whose OoS options suck when you are behind or to regain center stage

Are there better/more options?
What to do, if they roll or wavedash OoS?
What to do against a spacie, who can Shine OoS?
 
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BTmoney

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...I will go ahead and say this is impractical and probably shouldn't worry about it, rather than thinking about the answer

If someone else wants to chime in, go for it >_>
yeah I remember this has very little leniency, is very difficult (p much entirely impractical), and generally isn't worth the extra % when you consider that and the stage you would have to finesse.
(I'm pretty sure you have to reverse this constantly because of your dash cancel length unless you want to go for perfect JC running shine->waveshines lol. That'd have more leniency and be easier minus the fact that you'd have to constantly hit 1 frame links to keep this going. But that'd be sickkkkkk)

short answer, yeah the frames line up but no one is doing this (and I don't think this will ever become a common thing.)

EDIT:
Here's the actual answer lol

I always thought waveshine with walks instead of dashes was guaranteed in NTSC on Marth. While I would like to just throw this in and see what the consensus is, it would probably result in two parties stating contrary claims, so I guess I better cut this and go straight to TAS tests. Sigh …

Angles assume Fox is waveshining Marth from right to left. Unfavorable factor, favorable factor, bad outcome, good outcome.

Shine 1
1.1 • No SDI by Marth, 197° wavedash, walkfast afterwards: 8 frame window for shine 2.
1.2 • No SDI by Marth, 197° wavedash, dash→run afterwards: 5 frame window for shine 2. Frame 5 of this window will be a reverse hit.
1.3 • No SDI by Marth, 225° wavedash, dash→run afterwards: 5 frame window for shine 2.
1.4 • 1SDI+ASDI with 180°, 197° wavedash, dash→run afterwards: 5 frame window for shine 2.
1.5 • 1SDI+ASDI with 180°, 225° wavedash, dash→run afterwards : 2 frame window for shine 2.
1.6 • 1SDI+ASDI with 180°, 197° wavedash, walkfast afterwards: shine 2 whiffs.
1.7 • No SDI by Marth, 225° wavedash, walkfast afterwards: shine 2 whiffs.
1.8 • 1SDI+ASDI with 180°, 225° wavedash, walkfast afterwards: shine 2 whiffs.

At this point, we can already establish that perfect wavedash to walkfast is not reliable because Marth can SDI out. Wavedash to dash→run, on the other hand, is perfectly reliable. Even if the wavedash is as imperfect as 225°, it will still connect on a SDIing Marth.
You might wonder about the risk of overshooting against a Marth who SDIs in as a sort of counter against your wavedashrunshine. I didn’t include this option in the list because it hardly changes anything – even if you do a 197° wavedash and then dash, you have 3 frames to hit him forward and 2 frames to hit him backward with your shine 2, so all his SDI in will do is add another frame at the end that will hit reversed compared to 1.3.
The hard part about the wavedashrunshine is that you need to have a precise timing on the dash. If you dash 5 frames later than possible, your run will start to late and Marth can shield.

Shine 2
2.1 • No SDI by Marth, 197° wavedash, walkfast afterwards: 8 frame window for shine 2.
2.2 • No SDI by Marth, 197° wavedash, dash→run afterwards: 5 frame window for shine 2. All frames of this window will be reverse hits if shine 1 hit out of run. If shine 1 hit out of walk, the first 3 frames will not hit reverse.
2.3 • No SDI by Marth, 225° wavedash, dash→run afterwards: 5 frame window for shine 2.
2.4 • 1SDI+ASDI with 180°, 197° wavedash, dash→run afterwards: 5 frame window for shine 2.
2.5 • 1SDI+ASDI with 180°, 225° wavedash, dash→run afterwards : 5 frame window for shine 2.
2.6 • 1SDI+ASDI with 180°, 197° wavedash, walkfast afterwards: ~5 frame window for shine 2 depending on the exact precurring action. If shine 1 was hit from a walk, it will whiff.
2.7 • No SDI by Marth, 225° wavedash, walkfast afterwards: ~5 frame window for shine 2 depending on the exact precurring action. If shine 1 was hit from a walk, it will whiff.
2.8 • 1SDI+ASDI with 180°, 225° wavedash, walkfast afterwards: ~1 frame window for shine 2 depending on the exact precurring action. If shine 1 was hit from a walk, it will whiff.

Shine 2 (after frame 5 of 1.2)
Because reverse hits make you move left while Marth is moving to the right, only dash→run will reach him in time. Walking out of the (backwards) wavedash is not possible because it requires the entire turn animation (11 frames) to complete before it can start. Turning around earlier during shine takes way too long.

Waveshining Marth indefinitely
1. Start the waveshine with 1.2.
2. Continue with 2.3 to ensure you don’t hit reverse.
3. Repeat 2.3 until your next waveshine is the last that ends before the edge.
4. Do 1.2 again and hit the shine quite late during your shine to force a reverse hit.
5. Do a backwards wavedashrunshine and repeat steps 2-4 to the other side.
6. Repeat forever and finish with an upsmash.

This is inescapable. Marth can’t even change hit orientation by SDIing away from you when you need to hit reverse.
Edit: Because I tested this with debug mode’s frame advance, damage staling might make a difference.
Edit2: It seems move staling only changes the amount of hitlag and the damage of Fox’s shine. Hitstun and knockback are unaffected.
A completely stale shine has 1 frame advantage from electric hitlag opposed to 2 when fresh. This should reduce the frame window for wavedashrunshine from 5 to 4 – nothing dramatic.
And here is a gif of this that Kadano posted
1440×1080 (22MB!): http://gfycat.com/IllinformedIndolentGaur
 
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CeLL

Smash Lord
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Yeah, I don't think it's practical to use, I'm just curious. Also the inputs for it are extremely close to waveshine OoS (just switch holding L/R with holding a direction on the control stick), which is a practical tech, so if you can do that consistently, you might be able to get like 3 waveshines in a row lol
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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I use grounded shines out of dashes all the time vs. Marth. Seems unreliably difficult as a damage-building infinite, but it is perfectly feasible as a means for pushing characters closer to the ledge before finishers. You can effectively go for shine spikes from anywhere on the stage (though most people can FF to the ledge these days), or simply use it so that when you end your waveshine with usmash they go further off stage and have fewer DI options (more restricted by the horizontal blast zone than when at center stage). One downside is that that they will usually SDI waveshines away because they are expecting an up smash in the first place. Of course, you can be tricky and run cancel dsmash instead, but that's in my vault so I'd appreciate it if no one uses it. kthx

FYI: That Kadano gif doesn't have any jumping before the shine. Fox is directly shining out of run (not even crouching first). I think if the Marth SDIed inward, Fox would still be in dash by the time he reached Marth and would have to jump into a grounded shine (but I'm not sure).

haha, I guess I'll just have to practice on puff and adapt when I try to uthrow uair other people.

This is a question geared to bones or kadano, but if you're knowledgeable on the shield stun formula or move damage staling feel free to chime in.

So the formula for shield stun is:
(x+4.45)/2.235 = shield stun in frames
where x is damage of the move staled and the shield stun frames is rounded down.

My question is if shine does between 2 and 3 % (9 shines in a row makes shine do 2% every 4 or so shines from what I've seen), how do these fractional percents relate to the shield stun formula? Do you round up or down on the fractional percent? The reason why I ask this is because I want to know if you can roll out of doubleshine (between the two shines) given the shine is completely staled. The difference between 2 and 3% from what I've calculated is literally an entire frame.


shine does 3-4%
1 shine
2 hitlag
3 hitlag
4 hitlag
5 shield stun
6 shield stun
7 shield stun (JC)
8 jump squat
9 jump squat
10 shine

shine does 2%
1 shine
2 hitlag
3 hitlag
4 hitlag
5 shield stun
6 shield stun
7 jump cancel
8 jump squat
9 jump squat
10 shine

So as you can see, a 2% shine only has 2 frames of shield stun rounded down, so there's 3 frames where someone can act out of shield. All rolls are invincible on frame 4 (when the shine comes out). A 3% shine only has 2 frames where they can act out of shield, so they can't viably roll.

If any of my calcs are wrong let me know, I went through it fairly quickly.
Shine is a 3-frame move minimum (see hitbox/frame data thread). Whenever you want to calculate shield stun, remember to google "KirbyKaze frame advantage" or just bookmark THIS PAGE.
 
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BTmoney

a l l b e c o m e $
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I use grounded shines out of dashes all the time vs. Marth. Seems unreliably difficult as a damage-building infinite, but it is perfectly feasible as a means for pushing characters closer to the ledge before finishers. You can effectively go for shine spikes from anywhere on the stage (though most people can FF to the ledge these days), or simply use it so that when you end your waveshine with usmash they go further off stage and have fewer DI options (more restricted by the horizontal blast zone than when at center stage). One downside is that that they will usually SDI waveshines away because they are expecting an up smash in the first place. Of course, you can be tricky and run cancel dsmash instead, but that's in my vault so I'd appreciate it if no one uses it. kthx

FYI: That Kadano gif doesn't have any jumping before the shine. Fox is directly shining out of run (not even crouching first). I think if the Marth SDIed inward, Fox would still be in dash by the time he reached Marth and would have to jump into a grounded shine (but I'm not sure).


Shine is a 3-frame move minimum (see hitbox/frame data thread). Whenever you want to calculate shield stun, remember to google "KirbyKaze frame advantage" or just bookmark THIS PAGE.
just curious,

are you saying you go for dash (not run/crouch)->jump->shine on 1st frame->waveland in w/e direction? that would be a grounded shine out of a dash wouldn't it? also I wasn't implying that the fox was jumping, if it sounded that way (since no one waveshines that way lol. I said it'd be cool if you could).
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Jarrettsville, MD
Yes, that's what I was talking about. I was just replying to this segment of your post (and the entire conversation of waveshine infinites in general):

(I'm pretty sure you have to reverse this constantly because of your dash cancel length unless you want to go for perfect JC running shine->waveshines lol. That'd have more leniency and be easier minus the fact that you'd have to constantly hit 1 frame links to keep this going. But that'd be sickkkkkk)

short answer, yeah the frames line up but no one is doing this (and I don't think this will ever become a common thing.)
 

Heero Yuy

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Am having a lot of trouble doing a shine --> turnaround --> wavedash --> shine again, following a drill. I got the shine timing just fine but whenever after I turnaround it seems like I'm stuck in the shine and can't wavedash out. Am I not doing it fast enough or...?
 
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