Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Fortress | Sveet]

Turning around in shine does cause some lag, 4 frames IIRC.

Personally, I choose to turn around after the wavedash

 

[Druggedfox]

it's probably because you're pressing jump during the turn around animation for the shine, its not instant

 

[Druggedfox]

it's probably because you're pressing jump during the turn around animation for the shine, its not instant

 

[Heero Yuy]

it's probably because you're pressing jump during the turn around animation for the shine, its not instant

Yeah this was exactly the problem I just learned. Thanks.

 

[Captain Hayabusa]

FOX ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION
NO ITEMS
4 STOCKS

 

[81u3]

Is it possible to wave shine and double shine with fox without using the claw grip? Or is it extremely difficult?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Most people waveshine with normal grip AFAIK. I don't know if most people double shine with normal grip, but I do it just fine.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Quick Question when you shine up smash to hit both does it depend on DI or does it hit depending on timing?

 

[CeLL]

If someone lightshields (full light shield, like with Z) can we break their shield or is there too much shield knockback?

 

[mac771]

Is it better to short hop laser with Fox or short hop double laser? which is better to do?

 

[Druggedfox]

As long as its not a character who can tech the shine, running shine JC upsmash will combo regardless of DI

I doubt you can actaully break a shield if someone light shields, but you can usually just grab them before they can do anything

SHL vs SHDL just depends on how much freedom of mobility you want to have/how much time you want to spend lasering. With a SHL you can fastfall, so you touch the ground again much more quickly, but the laser is generally less likely to hit depending on what the opponent is doing.

 

[Linkdude74]

What are some good ways to practice wavedashing, L canceling, etc with fox? I just went to my first tournament tonight it though I got a few stocks off people without these skills, I feel I could get some wins if I were able to get it down. ANY tips are great. thank you

 

[mac771]

Sometimes when I waveshine with fox it seems like my wavedash does not go far enough. Do I have to shine, wavedash, and then walk a bit?

 

[Bones0]

Sometimes when I waveshine with fox it seems like my wavedash does not go far enough. Do I have to shine, wavedash, and then walk a bit?

It depends on the character. Walking is definitely the easiest way to ensure you reach them, but also make sure you are doing frame perfect airdodges and angling the stick as shallow as possible.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Sometimes when I waveshine with fox it seems like my wavedash does not go far enough. Do I have to shine, wavedash, and then walk a bit?

You must Waveshine and then walk a little

 

[mac771]

should I do Fox's down air with the c-stick or down a?

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

should I do Fox's down air with the c-stick or down a?

Use what ever you feel comfortable with dude

 

[sadistic]

Sometimes when I waveshine with fox it seems like my wavedash does not go far enough. Do I have to shine, wavedash, and then walk a bit?

If you're having trouble doing a perfect wavedash out of shine (waveshine), what some people do is shine > let go of the controls stick > wavedash. I find it easier to get a good angle on the wavedash this way.

 

[EUROPEANonymous]

Noob question:

i'm learning fox and i cant do double shine > short hop
wich is weird since i can do it with falco
can someone explain me why ?

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Noob question:

i'm learning fox and i cant do double shine > short hop
wich is weird since i can do it with falco
can someone explain me why ?

The Frame Data for the Shines are different Falco's Shine comes out on Frame 4 and for Fox I think it comes out on Frame 3 (its below 4 btw either way)

 

[Druggedfox]

Errr, fox and falco's shine both hit on the very first frame.

The difference is that falco's jump is slower by 2 frames, so if you do a double shine with falco you're actaully timing your second shine two frames slower than you need to time it for fox's double shine

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Errr, fox and falco's shine both hit on the very first frame.

The difference is that falco's jump is slower by 2 frames, so if you do a double shine with falco you're actaully timing your second shine two frames slower than you need to time it for fox's double shine

Doh I missed I was thinking it wrong

 

[SSBMLahti]

I seem to be having trouble with the Samus matchup. Any insight would be welcomely received. Wavedash back -> spacing jabs and/or tilts is tough for me to handle, along with crouch-cancel -> downsmash. How should i be DI'ing Samus' downsmash anyways? I tend to fly far no matter what.

 

[BTmoney]

So, drill-> up smash is a true combo (known fact, same reason why drill grab works)

I practiced it vs a CPU programmed to shield on the first possible frame out of hit stun (or anything for that matter) via 20XX. So the CPU will shield your up smash if you're late 100% of the time, andddddddd...

It's not that hard, gg every char. It's about as hard as doing a waveshine up smash on Marth and that's not very hard. Also note that drill dsmash wrecks fast fallers, esp falco, and actually a lot of characters near the edge. Iirc and I'm too lazy to check, dsmash comes out 1 or 2 frames faster than up smash.

1. What about sdi? Fast falling makes it harder on your opponent so you only hit with 2-3 drills. If they do get it which isn't impossible at all I doubt they could sdi out of up smash range with 1 sdi input like they can with shine or grab. Maybe if they're peach or something they could do crazy sdi up and away to go airborne (if you can even do that vs spikes) and mash a nair out but that option seems a tad like a stretch and would be extremely tight

2. What about buffered spot dodge? Spot dodge is slower than shield, which can also be buffered.

3. I learned practicing this that you can space your drill AND grab (focusing on drill grab here, grab/up smash both 7 frames) out of falco's shine range so falco can't just hold down and mash B in this situation (and in the same breath chances are if you're mashing B you're not going to get the input on the first frame possible, remember people 1/60th of a second and a good chunk of the time people don't even react to drill grab. Basically shielding is faster practically and timing a shine is probably comparable in practice to the speed of a buffered spot dodge). TL;DR you can space both the drill and the grab outside of falco's spot dodge shine or mashing shine in between drill and grab. So you don't have to ever get cheesed by that.



Lol you can't CC this->up smash
Gg characters you can't drill waveshine follow up. Gg meta. Rip in peace puff

New meta,
Discuss

 

[Druggedfox]

Drill upsmash doesn't combo on every character, as drill's hitstun is weight dependent (it works better on lighter characters). It works on marth, but its actually quite difficult (because it depends on landing the latest possible drill) and anyone heavier than marth you're not realistically going to get it on in a match.

You don't need 20xx, just go to training mode and check if its a true combo or not.

If you space drill so that you're outside range of counterattack, you're so vulnerable to SDI that its better to just actually learn the combo timing and hit it everytime. You'll get "cheesed" sometimes, but its not really cheese; they're just doing their best option available in case you mess up.

Of course you can't CC this upsmash, they're in hitstun.

Oh yeah, and it's impossible to SDI a grounded drill upwards.

One last thing; shield doesn't go to its full size until frame 4 after it activates. Especially for characters with bad shields, this means that even if your upsmash is hitting before they can shield it, you might be missing the true combo. For what its worth (I'm just providing information), spot dodge is invincible on frame 2, but buffering it actually makes it a frame slower because your shield has to appear for 1 frame before the game can read your "buffered" input.

I think that more or less answers everything related to drill upsmash/grab.

 

[BTmoney]

tl;dr
works for relevant chars pretty easily AFAIK: Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Marth (Marth is hard) and a bunch of irrelevant characters
practically excludes chars it would be great against like Samus and Peach
d smash which is great near ledges and obliterates falco gives you 1 more frame to work with
(think of that sad moment in falco dittos when you get dair->d smashed and you die)

Drill upsmash doesn't combo on every character, as drill's hitstun is weight dependent (it works better on lighter characters). It works on marth, but its actually quite difficult (because it depends on landing the latest possible drill) and anyone heavier than marth you're not realistically going to get it on in a match.

Glad you said something, I wanted to know every flaw. I forgot that drill interacts with weight. I tested more and I agree that Marth is the limit. I only arbitrarily tested this vs. Fox, Falco, and Puff.

You don't need 20xx, just go to training mode and check if its a true combo or not.

I know, the power shield visual is just a nice touch since that's what actually would be happening mid-match and I really only mentioned that because it sounds more precise than saying I used the training mode hit counter (baselessly, because I don't think that people still really use training mode that often). And interestingly enough I've got this to combo on Marth when the hit counter reset to 0 (so after the usmash the counter was at 1). I figured frame perfect shielding, 1 frame, is just as good than anything else.

If you space drill so that you're outside range of counterattack, you're so vulnerable to SDI that its better to just actually learn the combo timing and hit it everytime. You'll get "cheesed" sometimes, but its not really cheese; they're just doing their best option available in case you mess up.

I mostly agree, that's melee lol (basically it's a mixup, sort of or just another option. I don't want to write 3 paragraphs about this situation. It's don't mess up vs. I'm safe if I do). Beyond that, after doing more testing this really isn't hard--I've realized--if you practice this for like 20 minutes you really should never miss the link.

Of course you can't CC this upsmash, they're in hitstun.
Oh yeah, and it's impossible to SDI a grounded drill upwards.

That was more of a lol since vs. the characters it works for the first part of the link, the drill, isn't CC'able (so of course the up smash isn't CC'able because it's a combo) and that move combos into free w/e and that's just funny. Fox is good.

One last thing; shield doesn't go to its full size until frame 4 after it activates. Especially for characters with bad shields, this means that even if your upsmash is hitting before they can shield it, you might be missing the true combo. For what its worth (I'm just providing information), spot dodge is invincible on frame 2, but buffering it actually makes it a frame slower because your shield has to appear for 1 frame before the game can read your "buffered" input.

Well the CPU would just power shield every time I tried this and I was late. I'm pretty sure it's not a matter of waiting for the shield to expand. That could be it, but I don't think so if you can power shield as close as 1 frame before taking a hit.

 

[Comet7]

what's being done here? http://youtu.be/MPlP4zvX0lQ?t=3m44s
3:44 if the link doesn't work for some reason

 

[CeLL]

what's being done here? http://youtu.be/MPlP4zvX0lQ?t=3m44s
3:44 if the link doesn't work for some reason

I can't see what happens at first, looks like an uair, then uthrow, regrab, uthrow, uair, tech chase, uthrow, utilt, tech chase, uthrow, bair, shine, tech chase, uthrow, bair, Illusion onstage.

Edit: Thought it said 3:54 lol

 

[Comet7]

i was referring to the weird thing where he looks like he's in a shine animation but he's not... i think.

 

[Bones0]

i was referring to the weird thing where he looks like he's in a shine animation but he's not... i think.

You can shine in certain situations to cause the animation to appear differently. You're still able to reflect or JC normally, only the graphic is affected. You can turn around, but it will cause the shine to reappear normally. The most common ways of achieving this effect are to run/WD off and shine right before reaching the edge or to land on the ground while shining (like a multishine). Dark does a bunch in his tech skill vid:

 

[Heero Yuy]

I'd say I'm pretty good at double shines but for some reason the timing seems trickier when I'm using them to hit a character. Help pls?

 

[Bones0]

I'd say I'm pretty good at double shines but for some reason the timing seems trickier when I'm using them to hit a character. Help pls?

Hitlag.

 

[Druggedfox]

yea, hitlag. You just have to slow down your jump input out of the shine when you actually hit a character.

 

[CeLL]

If you shine -> dair on someone's shield, how many frames can you have between them before you can be shield grabbed?

Also is it realistically possible to tech the hit from Marth's down B when he edgeguards you with it?

 

[Druggedfox]

Dair hits frame 5, and fox can move two frames before his opponent after shining their shield. So if you jump cancel frame perfectly and dair on the first frame possible it takes until frame 8 for dair to hit; if you delayed it even one frame, you'd be hitting on the 9th actionable frame after shine (which is the same frame their grab will hit, since they'll be moving 2 frames later than you + grab hits frame 7).

Grab actaully has priority over attacks, so if they grab frame perfectly on the first frame possible, and you frame perfectly time your drill 1 frame later than possible you should get grabbed (unless you jump over their grab range...might be possible for very very short characters/bad grab range).

 

[Berble]

What should I do vs Peach when they float cancel an aerial on my shield and I know they're going to go for a dsmash or grab right after? Also, any general advice in the Peach mu would be appreciated or a link to a guide

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You can just buffer roll and escape most of the time. If peach does the latest possible FC fair->grab she can grab you, but that doesn't happen extremely often.

 

[Druggedfox]

It would have to be the lowest possible to the ground when it hits your shield, followed by a frame perfect grab (just for clarification).

Peach's aerials are +4 after a float cancel if they hit your shield the frame before she touches the ground, so in general you can have a rough idea of how much advantage she has by working backwards and thinking about how high up she is when she hits your shield.

 

[InfiniteNumbers]

How should I be DI'ing Falco's Down Throw and what should I be doing after his down throw? Just curious because I'm never really sure what to do when it happens to me.

 

[squirrels4ev]

You should be teching Falco's Dthrow to either side of Falco. Try to DI hard behind Falco, not because it really helps against Dthrow that much, but to avoid getting Backthrow "chaingrabbed" by him. I put that in quotes because if you DI his Bthrow inwards he can regrab you and Bthrow you again. If you aren't wise to what's going on you might panic and flip around your DI to get out of what looks like a chaingrab, but that just sets you up to get regrabbed again. If you don't get the DI behind Falco on the first throw just keep DIing the same way so if he Bthrows you so he can't get a 3rd grab. Make sure not to mash L or R when/if you're trying to mash out of his grabs because it will prevent you from teching his Dthrow.