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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

bearsfan092

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
402
A little stage selection theory guys. Against Marth

So imagine game 1 gets played on Yoshi's (best of 3), and the Marth wins. Marth naturally bans Dreamland. This leaves FoD, FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's, and Stadium on the list. From what I watch, it seems like a lot of Foxes like taking Marth to Battlefield if they recognize Stadium for the Marth nightmare it really is. Happens in a lot of vods I watch too.

My question is why would you take Marth there as opposed to FoD? Battlefield's edge is conducive to edgeguarding, whereas FoD you can ride the wall if you happen to get caught at or below stage level. If you happen to be caught low offstage on Battlefield, you pretty much have to go to the edge or slightly above, making the edgeguard easy for Marth (and really the entire top tier cast). Against Marth, it's not really any harder to edgeguard Marth on FoD as opposed to Battlefield.

In terms of platforms, Marth really doesn't have any problems covering options on Battlefield should you end up above him. On FoD, a low platform doesn't really hurt Fox any more than a Battlefield platform would. The only situation is if you have an edge-camping Marth. In that case an overshot nair to the edge will probably get intercepted by a platform, but you can still grab/running shine any DD-baited approaches. If the platform goes high, then you have a Dreamland-type platform, and Fox loves those against Marth. Things get problematic if FoD loses both platforms and resembles FD, but in general it seems the platforms favor Fox more than Battlefield would.

I guess an aerial-happy Fox would get stifled by FoD, but Marth is definitely one of those matchups where you should be staying grounded as long as possible, so I don't see it as that big of a problem.

In short, wall+platforms seems to make FoD a better counterpick than Battlefield in the Fox-Marth MU. Is there anything wrong in my assumptions or any details I'm missing?
 
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Fortress | Sveet

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Fox doesn't get knocked down from Falco's dthrow. If you DI in, he can shine immediately and it should be faster than anything you can do. The best option is to hold down and slightly away, so that you end up outside of his shine range but inside your shine range, then mash downb. If you don't want to risk it, you can just hold away and buffer a roll, and that should be faster than anything he can do.

edit- bearsfan: I wouldn't take marth to battlefield. I would always choose PS or DL (whichever they didn't ban); stadium is amazing for fox in any match-up. Game 1 should be YS or BF (even match-up on both stages), then game 2 is either FoD (Marth CP, assuming fox banned FD) or PS (Fox CP, assuming marth banned DL).

The thing to keep in mind is that Fox is amazing on every stage. He is the best character, with the fastest move speed and the quickest aerials. Depending on your play style you might prefer being close or far from your opponent, but fox as a character is great in every situation. FoD isn't exactly bad for Fox, but it is very hard to fight marth on that stage because of the platforms. The top platform is roughly the same height as YS (marth sh uair reaches it), and the side platforms favor marth in every position but the highest. When the platforms go away it is basically FD which favors marth as well. On top of that, FoD has the 2nd highest ceiling blastzone which hurts Fox more than anyone else. All in all, FoD is not that good of a stage for fox, which is why Peach, Puff, Marth and Sheik tend to CP him there.
 
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CeLL

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You should be teching Falco's Dthrow to either side of Falco. Try to DI hard behind Falco, not because it really helps against Dthrow that much, but to avoid getting Backthrow "chaingrabbed" by him. I put that in quotes because if you DI his Bthrow inwards he can regrab you and Bthrow you again. If you aren't wise to what's going on you might panic and flip around your DI to get out of what looks like a chaingrab, but that just sets you up to get regrabbed again. If you don't get the DI behind Falco on the first throw just keep DIing the same way so if he Bthrows you so he can't get a 3rd grab. Make sure not to mash L or R when/if you're trying to mash out of his grabs because it will prevent you from teching his Dthrow.
NTSC Fox can't tech Falco's dthrow.


How fast is Fox's moonwalk compared to his normal run?

Also is it realistic to SDI out of dair and nair them consistently in the ditto?
 
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Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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You can't tech falco's dthrow, that's why hes asking ^

You should generally time a shine after he dthrows you. You can shine before he can do any action

LOL the simultaneous responses
 
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mac771

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
20
what should I be doing when I am playing as Fox against other spacies? I always struggle when I am fox playing against fox and when I am playing against falco
 

Gunslinger

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Do you guys find it better to play Fox with X or Y? I've been using X since I first got the game when I was a kid and it's been grained into my muscle memory, especially now that I've picked up competitive techniques. However, my friend who is a superior Smasher than me says that X is a bad jump button and that I should switch to Y. He said to do it since it's closer to the A and B button, allowing me to SHDL more consistently against Puff (a matchup I struggle with). I usually play aggressive to the point where I get punished for approaching and I want to adapt my style to a more run-and-gun Fox to bait my foe into getting combo'd. Would switching to the Y button help me out?
 

Palmerfan

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Use both, and also try tap jump too

I use different jump buttons for different things and whatever works the easiest for you is the best option. I suggest every time you try learning something new try it with each method of jumping and see which is the easiest, then practice it the easiest way possible

i use tap jump for lasering, x for pillaring and y for general jumping. whatever works for you is the best though
 

Gunslinger

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Use both, and also try tap jump too

I use different jump buttons for different things and whatever works the easiest for you is the best option. I suggest every time you try learning something new try it with each method of jumping and see which is the easiest, then practice it the easiest way possible

i use tap jump for lasering, x for pillaring and y for general jumping. whatever works for you is the best though
I guess it is just down to personal preference. I don't know how you're able to consistently SHDL with tap jump, mad props. I find myself full jumping or Fire Foxing half the time with tap jump.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Whatever works best for you is the #1 answer. Though I do think Y is objectively better due to being more central on the controller. Sliding Y->B takes less motion than sliding X->B, so it makes it easier to do any B moves immediately after jump. You will see benefits mostly in double shining and SHDL.
 

Gunslinger

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Whatever works best for you is the #1 answer. Though I do think Y is objectively better due to being more central on the controller. Sliding Y->B takes less motion than sliding X->B, so it makes it easier to do any B moves immediately after jump. You will see benefits mostly in double shining and SHDL.
Yeah, that was basically my friend's argument too. I think I'm gonna make the switch to Y, or at least use it solely for lasers. I can infinite drill shine with Y no problem while practicing, but in the heat of battle I find myself full hopping with Y, so I generally switch to X which my hand is more comfortable with. Somehow I'm more consistent at multi-shining with the control stick than the Y to B method, the motion feels more natural to me.
 

Gunslinger

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Sorry for so many posts but I have another question. Not sure if this is the correct place to ask, but how do you guys keep yourself from going on auto-pilot during tournament matches? My biggest problem as a player is that if my foe slows the match down to the point where they're playing their game and not fighting me in the neutral (be it a shino-stalling Sheik, ledge-camping Puff, laser spamming Falco, or roll-happy Yoshi) I have a lot of problems being patient with them and find myself approaching only to fall into their trap. Following the CunningKitsune guide terminology, how do I switch from being an "Aggro" Fox to an "Aggro-Control" Fox?
 

Palmerfan

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If you lose a stock and notice you're on tilt and playing dumb wait on the respawn platform between stocks, take a deep breath, and make a small gameplan for what you're going to do. It works wonders
 

Spluvin

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Oct 25, 2014
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I recently picked up fox. When I take the ledge I use shine turn arounnd wavedash, however somtimes the shine just won't come out. Is there a reason for this, like me not hitting the right frame window?
 

T r a n

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I recently picked up fox. When I take the ledge I use shine turn arounnd wavedash, however somtimes the shine just won't come out. Is there a reason for this, like me not hitting the right frame window?
Are you doing run>shine turnaround wavedash? Or are you just standing > shine turnaround wavedash? If you're doing it from run, what you have to do actually is Initial Dash for 11 frames > run > crouch >shine turnaround wavedash. Otherwise you would have to do a JC shine if you're trying to shine during initial dash. So basically you could be doing shine too early during run. If otherwise, you're probably just missing the B button I think.
 

Spluvin

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Oct 25, 2014
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Yeah I meant run>shine turnaround wavedash. I am sure I do it out of a run and not a dash. I am also confident that i press b.
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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A little stage selection theory guys. Against Marth

So imagine game 1 gets played on Yoshi's (best of 3), and the Marth wins. Marth naturally bans Dreamland. This leaves FoD, FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's, and Stadium on the list. From what I watch, it seems like a lot of Foxes like taking Marth to Battlefield if they recognize Stadium for the Marth nightmare it really is. Happens in a lot of vods I watch too.

My question is why would you take Marth there as opposed to FoD? Battlefield's edge is conducive to edgeguarding, whereas FoD you can ride the wall if you happen to get caught at or below stage level. If you happen to be caught low offstage on Battlefield, you pretty much have to go to the edge or slightly above, making the edgeguard easy for Marth (and really the entire top tier cast). Against Marth, it's not really any harder to edgeguard Marth on FoD as opposed to Battlefield.

In terms of platforms, Marth really doesn't have any problems covering options on Battlefield should you end up above him. On FoD, a low platform doesn't really hurt Fox any more than a Battlefield platform would. The only situation is if you have an edge-camping Marth. In that case an overshot nair to the edge will probably get intercepted by a platform, but you can still grab/running shine any DD-baited approaches. If the platform goes high, then you have a Dreamland-type platform, and Fox loves those against Marth. Things get problematic if FoD loses both platforms and resembles FD, but in general it seems the platforms favor Fox more than Battlefield would.

I guess an aerial-happy Fox would get stifled by FoD, but Marth is definitely one of those matchups where you should be staying grounded as long as possible, so I don't see it as that big of a problem.

In short, wall+platforms seems to make FoD a better counterpick than Battlefield in the Fox-Marth MU. Is there anything wrong in my assumptions or any details I'm missing?

Not being able to aerial is actually a big deal, though. Staying grounded is great, I agree, but its only strong if you have an associated threat with it. Essentially a ground game is only as strong as its threat. Marth can dtilt and grab which are both EXTREMELY scary; fox can shine grab nair drill and upsmash; falcon doesn't have strong options out of it, which is a big part of why his DD is worse than fox/marth.

So let's break this down.

1) Just strictly with the DD game and no aerials, its now your slightly better ground speed but with only grab shine and upsmash vs marth who has dtilt to beat all grounded maneuvers when you don't read him, and a grab that outranges literally all the options you have left. That's not a game you want to be playing

2) Normally when you play, one of fox's biggest strengths is how quickly he can transition between a horizontal and a vertical game. I would agree that you want to primarily use your ground game, but in a pure ground vs ground fox clearly loses. However, marth has to react at different ranges if you add in a vertical component. You can defensively jump over aggressive dtilt/grab from marth, and its not easy for him to punish without calling it out. You can also threaten him by jumping near him, then combining drifting/fastfalling/DJ to bait something out. Even if you don't get a direct punish, often you can gain "neutral frame advantage". Essentially you will force him to react to you and commit to something, but you'll have landed already and transition into a ground game where you can move a bit before him. So now even though you're playing a ground game, its not an even ground vs ground game: you now have the ability to move a little earlier, or play the game when he's in a slightly worse position. Now you can win this fight, as opposed to before where you're naturally at a disadvantage for fighting ground to ground.

3) How do platforms factor into all of this? Platform camping honestly doesn't get you much, as long as marth reacts well to what you're doing up there. On the other hand, platforms give a lot more strength to your full jump game/drifting game. On the one hand marth can feel safer because you are more limited in how you can FJ towards/near him with platforms in the way. On the other hand, you can mix up landing on the platform defensively to get away from him, or offensively when you're pressuring him. If you combine this with fastfalling through the platform with shines/aerials, it creates a powerful mixup. You can always drift one way or another, you can choose to land on it or not, and you have a DJ to work with the whole time. Adding the platform element to this is useful, because as he gives up more and more space, you can work a positional advantage from the platform. This goes back to transitioning between horizontal and vertical gameplay quickly. If they try to cover one, they give up time; fox with a bit of time tends to absolutely maul the rest of the cast.


So back to the point though...how does FoD factor into this even if you're not an "aerial happy fox". If the above stuff makes sense, its pretty easy to see how FoD hinders you.

1) You're often forced to play the ground game without the other options as I described. Sure the stage is small so you can be aggressive, but you're always limited in your option set, and playing a game that marth inherently has the advantage in.

2) You can't transition as effectively between horizontal and vertical play on this stage because the platforms get in the way! Even if they're not always in the way, marth can always take into account how the platforms affect the potential strength of using any sort of vertical movement. It's still a factor, but its significantly nerfed, and allows marth to focus on the ground game with *situational adjustments* instead of having to always take it into account.

3) This just literally is no longer an option. The platforms aren't very wide and they're also not near the center at all. You don't get an leverage from landing on them compared to other stages, defensively or offensively. It is also often impossible to fall through platforms with an aerial in a useful way, or full jump aggressively at all.

In my opinion, the order of stage's from best to worst for fox are something like:

Dreamland, Yoshi's, Stadium, Battlefield, FoD, FD. I feel that fox wins on the first two, and loses on the last two. The middle two I'm less sure of, though I lean towards slight advantage to fox on stadium (ONLY because of transformations, I think marth has slight advantage on neutral transformation) and slight disadvantage on battlefield (edges suck, top platform is too high to be useful). This isn't exact and I might switch it up a little, but that's more or less how I feel about them.

Hope this is useful
 

Berble

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how should I di peach's dsmash when I'm riding the wall recovering? I see a lot of people miss the tech and di so they get sent on stage so should I just hold in?
 

Ya Boy GP

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how should I di peach's dsmash when I'm riding the wall recovering? I see a lot of people miss the tech and di so they get sent on stage so should I just hold in?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you can smash DI peaches d-smash up to actually go above the ledge and get sent to the other side of the stage.
 

CeLL

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Assuming that you're not predictable with what you do afterwards, is there any point in ever not ledgedashing? Like, never doing any ledge option except ledgedashing/firestalling. It seems pretty superior to all the others.
 

Druggedfox

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Assuming you're getting good enough ledgedashes, there's no point doing anything else if your goal is to safely get from the edge onto the stage
 

CeLL

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Can Fox shine OoS Fox or Falco's shinegrab? Also I saw someone (I think it was Chillin) do shine -> turnaround -> jump -> bair on a Fox offstage. Is this realistically possible to do consistently or do they have to DI a specific way?
 

LL87

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Hi, I would like to know some things about uthrow.
Does uthrow bair/uair connect on DK ? Can fox chaingrab falcon at around 40/70, on DI away ? I tried those using the 20xx hack pack, and it works. However, I'm pretty unsure regarding DK. Can anyone tell me what the truth actually is ? Thanks
 

Ya Boy GP

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Hi, I would like to know some things about uthrow.
Does uthrow bair/uair connect on DK ? Can fox chaingrab falcon at around 40/70, on DI away ? I tried those using the 20xx hack pack, and it works. However, I'm pretty unsure regarding DK. Can anyone tell me what the truth actually is ? Thanks
uthrow uair/bair does work on DK, you're probably just not jumping quick enough to get the followup.

Speaking of falcon, can anyone give me a little "combo tree" of what I can do to falcon off a grab at different percents? My punish game on him off of grabs is really weak right now.
 

LL87

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uthrow uair/bair does work on DK, you're probably just not jumping quick enough to get the followup.

Speaking of falcon, can anyone give me a little "combo tree" of what I can do to falcon off a grab at different percents? My punish game on him off of grabs is really weak right now.
I actually did say that I can get uthrow combos on DK, it's just that I was unsure, because uthrow does not combo most of the mid/low tiers (samus, doc, luigi...). Thanks for confirming this.

Vs Falcon, you should probably try to get a grab under a platform, and get your upairs/utilt strings. Uair the tech in place, and react if he does something else. I'm pretty sure you can cover every option vs another fox (uair, then grab/shine to react), but I don't know vs falcon, considering his weight. Most of the players will miss the tech.

At 0%, you can utilt twice and regrab. I'm pretty sure this is not a true combo, however. On FD, you can usually utilt/uair/uair if no di around 50%, or you can nair him on other di, and either nair him again, if he survival dis, or tech chase him, using utilt to cover the tech in place and reacting to the other tech options he has.

Generally, you can nair regrab and utilt if no di. Uair strings are the best thing to do vs FFers. You should watch leffen/armada's fox vs gravy/jeapie They are both really playing by the book.
 

Gunslinger

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uthrow uair/bair does work on DK, you're probably just not jumping quick enough to get the followup.

Speaking of falcon, can anyone give me a little "combo tree" of what I can do to falcon off a grab at different percents? My punish game on him off of grabs is really weak right now.
Up-throw -> up-tilt -> up smash at low percents (assuming no DI). If they do DI well (in front of Fox) you can hit them with a soft bair for the DI trap and continue your combo. At higher percents I like up-throw -> bair to get him off stage.
 

tauKhan

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Is crouch cancelling active on the first frame you input/buffer it? How strict of a timing is it to avoid buffer crouch cancel on fox's stale and unstaled drill?
Crouching reduces kb even on the 1st frame of the animation. Cancelling part isn't related to crouching, and thus isn't active on any frame of crouch, it can happen when you manage to ASDI to hit the ground.

The drill is meteor, so it can't be cancelled (you can't even A/SDI it vertically). It's so weak that it probably couldn't be cancelled anyway. It hits rapidly enough, that the opponent won't be able to crouch again after first hit, so kb reduction doesn't matter either.
 

Diana's Safe Landing

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Crouching reduces kb even on the 1st frame of the animation. Cancelling part isn't related to crouching, and thus isn't active on any frame of crouch, it can happen when you manage to ASDI to hit the ground.

The drill is meteor, so it can't be cancelled (you can't even A/SDI it vertically). It's so weak that it probably couldn't be cancelled anyway. It hits rapidly enough, that the opponent won't be able to crouch again after first hit, so kb reduction doesn't matter either.
Can you always shine them after a drill before they can buffer a crouch cancel on your shine?
 

Diana's Safe Landing

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If you were in the air, you will landing cancel and can shine during their L-cancel lag. If you were grounded, drill true combos into shine so obviously they can crouch instead of shine on that frame.
My original question was what the window is like for them to sneak in a buffered crouch cancel in between your drill shine. As in how fast do you have to shine after your drill to prevent them from crouch cancelling.
 

Druggedfox

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It depends on the character. Drill hitstun is different on each character. On Puff you have much longer than you do on DK.

Also, crouch canceling activates frame 1 when you press down
 

CeLL

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So we all know that you can waveshine Link, Peach, and Zelda multiple times in a row, but I've seen it done on other characters, too, namely Sheik and Falcon, off the top of my head. Is this an actual combo or can they escape it somehow?
 

Spluvin

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What would be the best secondary to counter Marth and Peach on FD? My friend suggested Captain Falcon.
 
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