Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[CeLL]

After a ledge tech wall jump or whatever it's called, what is the best way to return to the stage? I've been doing an immediate Illusion to onstage.

 

[Berble]

A good option for recovering with ledge teching is to do a regular ledge tech (no wall jump) - immediate side b to ledge or air dodge back on stage

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

How do you escape Marth's u-throw chain grab as Fox and what % can Fox be chain grabbed until?

Thanks

It's guaranteed 0%-Death on FD.

Regrab section:

0-17% - Mixup random di

17-33% - No di and shine out of grab if he doesn't pivot.

Regrab/utilt/uair section:

34-59% - mixup random di

60% - full di back is really hard to follow up on.

There's not much you can do.

 

[T r a n]

It's guaranteed 0%-Death on FD.

Regrab section:

0-17% - Mixup random di

17-33% - No di and shine out of grab if he doesn't pivot.

Regrab/utilt/uair section:

34-59% - mixup random di

60% - full di back is really hard to follow up on.

There's not much you can do.

From what I've seen, a lot of marth's screw up and just up tilt during around 34-50ish percent range. In that range the marth is supposed to uair regrab (if no DI, look at the optimal chaingrab tree in my other post), but they get lazy. I think a better thing to do against utilt in general (but especially when they utilt at too high of a percentage to regrab) is to smash DI the utilt behind the marth to get the most horizontal distance away from marth. This can get you out of the chaingrab a decent amount.

Here's a post I made showing how mango DI's M2k's utilts:
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-not-to-get-up-tilt-spammed-by-marth.364092/#post-17286582

 

[Bones0]

It's guaranteed 0%-Death on FD.

Regrab section:

0-17% - Mixup random di

17-33% - No di and shine out of grab if he doesn't pivot.

Regrab/utilt/uair section:

34-59% - mixup random di

60% - full di back is really hard to follow up on.

There's not much you can do.

No offense, but this is really bad advice. Especially full DI at 60%. Full DIing before ~90% will just get you tippered, and even if you can survive a tip at 60ish, they can just fair -> tipper.

DI slightly behind at low percents to make the regrab hard or full DI to position yourself favorably. In the mid teen %s, DI slightly behind and shine out. They have to pivot grab to deal with it. How you DI the utilts will depend on how you plan on getting out. You can fight the utilts by DIing away and getting sent straight up, and sometimes they will do one too many and you end up in a pseudo juggle as opposed to a true combo that they can tipper you out of. I think you might also be able to do some absurd down and in SDI on utilts to force them to tech chase because they can't regrab fast enough, but obviously this depends on the percent, your DI, their reaction time, etc.

As a general guideline, I do not worry about trying to get out of CGs with minimal percent. It's all about stage positioning, and if you are off stage at 50%, even if you make it back, you still have to worry about them starting up the CG again. If they get you in a pseudo juggle at 90%, the best they will get off of another uthrow is a nair. It's not good enough for Marth to rack up percents on a stock; he needs the KO. Obviously taking damage isn't ideal, but I'm much less worried about being tied in stocks with 90%+ on me vs. his fresh stock than with other characters. Even at 90%, most chars can combo Marth just as hard since he isn't going to KO with a random nair out like Peach might if she were being comboed.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

No offense, but this is really bad advice. Especially full DI at 60%. Full DIing before ~90% will just get you tippered, and even if you can survive a tip at 60ish, they can just fair -> tipper.

DI slightly behind at low percents to make the regrab hard or full DI to position yourself favorably. In the mid teen %s, DI slightly behind and shine out. They have to pivot grab to deal with it. How you DI the utilts will depend on how you plan on getting out. You can fight the utilts by DIing away and getting sent straight up, and sometimes they will do one too many and you end up in a pseudo juggle as opposed to a true combo that they can tipper you out of. I think you might also be able to do some absurd down and in SDI on utilts to force them to tech chase because they can't regrab fast enough, but obviously this depends on the percent, your DI, their reaction time, etc.

As a general guideline, I do not worry about trying to get out of CGs with minimal percent. It's all about stage positioning, and if you are off stage at 50%, even if you make it back, you still have to worry about them starting up the CG again. If they get you in a pseudo juggle at 90%, the best they will get off of another uthrow is a nair. It's not good enough for Marth to rack up percents on a stock; he needs the KO. Obviously taking damage isn't ideal, but I'm much less worried about being tied in stocks with 90%+ on me vs. his fresh stock than with other characters. Even at 90%, most chars can combo Marth just as hard since he isn't going to KO with a random nair out like Peach might if she were being comboed.

I'm not offended at all, that post was rushed and not well thought out. I agree somewhat with what you are saying (mostly on stage dependent positioning) the applications of sdi sound inconsistent imo especially since you don't have precise inputs on how to sdi uptilt, plus a Marth should not be up tilting on fd at least outside of the regrab at 33/34. Unless he's really close to a ledge so that he has to deviate from the guaranteed stuff of course.

Obviously everything changes depending on platform stages as Marth can cover so many options when he forces a knockdown state and that seems too in depth for me to put effort into analyzing for such a broad question.

 

[mac771]

Hey smashers, whenever I try to short hop double laser with fox, it seems as if the first laser always flies over my opponents head (even when they are someone tall like marth). I use the control stick flick to short hop double laser by the way. How do I make it so I hit them with both?

 

[CeLL]

Hey smashers, whenever I try to short hop double laser with fox, it seems as if the first laser always flies over my opponents head (even when they are someone tall like marth). I use the control stick flick to short hop double laser by the way. How do I make it so I hit them with both?

I don't think you can significantly change the height of the lasers in a SHDL. The timing to get both is too tight.

 

[voorhese]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4corawq3G8#t=9311 hook me up with that advice! there's lots of games in a row here.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Advice: Stop being so ****ing good with waveshine out of shield

That is all

 

[Super]

Sometimes Falcos like to mix fulljump after their shine to avoid Fox OOS after. What's the best option as Fox? Up air oos? Upsmash if they are coming down with another aerial (should at least trade with dair)? Or just get out of there?

 

[CeLL]

Is uair -> shine safe on shield like nair?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wavedash forward and take the middle of the stage. Punish whatever they land with.

 

[Glitchy]

Consistency.
I have a huge problem with my consistency, I can play at my peak for two hours and then suddenly drop way below that and drop games to players I usually beat handedly.

I've tried keeping warm between sets, I've tried taking a break between sets but nothing seems to work when I hit that slump.

I hope someone can give me tips because it is really disheartening to not play at the level you know you're capable of : <

 

[Super]

Wavedash forward and take the middle of the stage. Punish whatever they land with.

What if you are on a platform? Shielddrop would be best if you can do it consistently?

 

[Druggedfox]

Uair to shine is safe on shield.

Also, I figured out a way to waveshine combo ICs as fox. Essentially after the drill you have 4-5 frames of advantage before ICs are out of hitstun. You can use this time to do one of two things:

1) Walk forward out of the drill into shine

2) Dash after the drill into a JC shine

Both of these methods give you enough momentum to true combo after the shine. The walk forward requires better timing, but less execution/inputs. The second method is a lot harder in terms of inputs required, but the timing is actually pretty easy (and if you can consistently get the WD out of the dash JC shine the followup isn't even that hard, while the walk followup requires high precision after the shine).

I recorded a proof of concept of me doing drill-->dash JC shine if anyone is interested.

 

[CeLL]

Can you drop from the edge and waveland on a platform before your ledge invincibility is gone? Like a ledgedash onto a platform.

 

[Pengie]

Pretty sure that only works on yoshis with any significant invincibility. BF might be doable if you're like absolutely frame perfect vut you wouldnt get much invincibility for it. Still a good option on BF though.

 

[CeLL]

Pretty sure that only works on yoshis with any significant invincibility. BF might be doable if you're like absolutely frame perfect vut you wouldnt get much invincibility for it. Still a good option on BF though.

DL and PS are right out then?

 

[Pengie]

Stadium defnitely since the platforms are so far on stage taht you can't even ledgehop to them. As for DL I'm not sure. I know that if you do a perfectly timed ledgehop you can land on the side platforms, but I've never actually messed around with how invincible you are when you do that.

 

[EWC]

Also, I figured out a way to waveshine combo ICs as fox. Essentially after the drill you have 4-5 frames of advantage before ICs are out of hitstun. You can use this time to do one of two things:

1) Walk forward out of the drill into shine

2) Dash after the drill into a JC shine

Both of these methods give you enough momentum to true combo after the shine. The walk forward requires better timing, but less execution/inputs. The second method is a lot harder in terms of inputs required, but the timing is actually pretty easy (and if you can consistently get the WD out of the dash JC shine the followup isn't even that hard, while the walk followup requires high precision after the shine).

I recorded a proof of concept of me doing drill-->dash JC shine if anyone is interested.

This is coolbu it isn't strictly necessary to waveshine combo icies though. You can do that with just good wavedash length and dash timing. In fact you can even wave shine up smash Luigi from standing with enough precision (proof:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA08zEfFOWs). Your way might be more practical due to lower precision requirements, but that is unclear.

 

[Pengie]

hmm that's pretty interesting. i wasn't aware you could do that. Do you know if that works if the luigi does any combination of DI and SDI? Because if it doesn't work on some combination of DI and SDI away, then the drill into walk might be useful to hit the combo regardless of their DI

 

[EWC]

It doesn't work on luigi if he does any SDI away, so yeah the walking thing could be useful for that. The amount of precision required to make all that work is really high though.

Honestly even without SDI it is probably impractical to try to waveshine combo luigi. I am able to do it in training mode (with 20XX mod so I can cstick) but the timing is really hard. It depends very heavily on getting a good wavedash angle too.

 

[Druggedfox]

Yea, I should have been more clear, since I knew you could do it from a standstill on ICs haha

Thanks for clearing it up, and I didnt actually know it worked on luigi as well...that's cool.

 

[EWC]

Fair enough.

Btw, it occurs to me that maybe walking before you shine could also be used as an answer to SDI on the drill sometimes. Would require pretty difficult reaction, but all of this stuff is rather speculative anyways so might as well mention it.

 

[Druggedfox]

You could default to walking anyway after every drill, but the bigger issue would be that if the last hit of the drill is whiffing due to SDI you're not getting the frame advantage you need to walk into it I would imagine?

 

[EWC]

You might potentially need to react to which direction the SDI in. Also yeah I am not sure about the hitstun. I think there are times when the last hit of drill still connects but then shine whiffs, because drill actually has pretty good frontal range. I'm not sure how common that is though.

 

[NondairyDanzig]

Hi guys, I just posted a critique thread but I'm not sure if it's supposed to go in here. It would be great if any of you could give it a look and help out :D

http://smashboards.com/threads/critique-my-fox.372657/

 

[Estwood]

What should I do in the Fox vs Marth Matchup?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Grab him, throw him up, uair him a lot.

Don't get grabbed near the edge or anywhere on FD

To edgeguard: refresh invincibility then shine->bair from the edge to cover all options.


I could be more specific if you ask more specific

 

[hariooo]

is there a Fox -> Falco chaingrab guide with DI alternatives by percentage like Kadano's Marth thread?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Not to my knowledge, but its a really easy chaingrab. Doesn't start at 0%, but by ~15% you should be able to JC grab all options. If you get the grab at 0%, do uthrow->usmash instead, then techchase into another usmash or grab. This goes until ~100%, at which point you usmash KO.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Played a DK (Phish-It) for the first time at Justice 4 on Saturday and had no idea how to fight DK. Managed to get him to last stock 110% game two. But some questions, is it possible to u-throw uair DK or should I dthrow and tech chase upsmash? I tried to uthrow uair but I wasn't used to DKs weight so my followups were a bit slow. Also, can you waveshine him like you can similar to Falcon? Any thoughts on stage picks? I just went to battlefield both games and knew if I won I'd ban FD. General advice on the matchup would be nice too.

 

[Druggedfox]

You should probably pretty much never go for dthrow tech chase upsmash.

IMO fox's throws are all about positional advantage. Even if you can't get an upthrow upair, if throwing him up allows you to manipulate him towards a platform where you can pressure with backairs and uptilts, that's still great. You can also throw him towards an edge where he'll have a lot less options because he has no room to retreat to.

You can waveshine him, but I generally try to keep it simple with just a waveshine upsmash and try to pressure/followup from there.

Honestly any stage besides FD is fine. On yoshi's you can overwhelm him, on FoD he can't SH bair in a LOT of spots which limits him, and on dreamland he can't catch you. I think if you're comfortable on BF that's fine, but I actually think it gives you the least advantage of any of the stages.

In general I would say you just need to learn the situations where you can't challenge him. DK doesn't really have a good approach game against basic dash dancing and bairs vs fox. His best approach is probably dtilt, but you can think of that as a super ghetto marth approach. It's less safe, you can more easily escape if it hits you, and DK is a lot slower so you can react to the situation better.

He mainly gets by in the matchup by tricking you into thinking you have an opening, and then hitting you for *that*. He can go for CC grab, WD back grab, or baiting you by being on a platform then dropping through with a backair. The easiest way to beat DK is by recognizing situations where you can't challenge him (as I said, if he's on a platform facing backwards, don't just run straight at him and get baired), and either baiting him out of those with movement or lasers.

Otherwise I would say that you just need to get comfortable in the micro interactions up close. Once fox gains any advantage on DK, you can generally rush him down super hard as long as you don't get shield grabbed/CC grabbed. He doesn't have many strong defensive options (his moves just generally aren't good, has a bad spotdodge, etc), so you shouldn't be afraid to get close to him and just pressure him. I don't necessarily mean shield pressure or anything like that, I just mean that you can stay on top of him/near him instead of disengaging if you get a hit. Fox can snowball his advantage very effectively *and* safely vs most slow characters in this game.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

You should probably pretty much never go for dthrow tech chase upsmash.

IMO fox's throws are all about positional advantage. Even if you can't get an upthrow upair, if throwing him up allows you to manipulate him towards a platform where you can pressure with backairs and uptilts, that's still great. You can also throw him towards an edge where he'll have a lot less options because he has no room to retreat to.

You can waveshine him, but I generally try to keep it simple with just a waveshine upsmash and try to pressure/followup from there.

Honestly any stage besides FD is fine. On yoshi's you can overwhelm him, on FoD he can't SH bair in a LOT of spots which limits him, and on dreamland he can't catch you. I think if you're comfortable on BF that's fine, but I actually think it gives you the least advantage of any of the stages.

In general I would say you just need to learn the situations where you can't challenge him. DK doesn't really have a good approach game against basic dash dancing and bairs vs fox. His best approach is probably dtilt, but you can think of that as a super ghetto marth approach. It's less safe, you can more easily escape if it hits you, and DK is a lot slower so you can react to the situation better.

He mainly gets by in the matchup by tricking you into thinking you have an opening, and then hitting you for *that*. He can go for CC grab, WD back grab, or baiting you by being on a platform then dropping through with a backair. The easiest way to beat DK is by recognizing situations where you can't challenge him (as I said, if he's on a platform facing backwards, don't just run straight at him and get baired), and either baiting him out of those with movement or lasers.

Otherwise I would say that you just need to get comfortable in the micro interactions up close. Once fox gains any advantage on DK, you can generally rush him down super hard as long as you don't get shield grabbed/CC grabbed. He doesn't have many strong defensive options (his moves just generally aren't good, has a bad spotdodge, etc), so you shouldn't be afraid to get close to him and just pressure him. I don't necessarily mean shield pressure or anything like that, I just mean that you can stay on top of him/near him instead of disengaging if you get a hit. Fox can snowball his advantage very effectively *and* safely vs most slow characters in this game.

Thank you for the help, that helped a lot.

 

[Estwood]

Grab him, throw him up, uair him a lot.

Don't get grabbed near the edge or anywhere on FD

To edgeguard: refresh invincibility then shine->bair from the edge to cover all options.


I could be more specific if you ask more specific

Shine -> bair covers all options? I always see top level players doing that but the commentators never explain why they do that. I'm not even sure if I can properly execute that.

 

[EWC]

Not to my knowledge, but its a really easy chaingrab. Doesn't start at 0%, but by ~15% you should be able to JC grab all options. If you get the grab at 0%, do uthrow->usmash instead, then techchase into another usmash or grab. This goes until ~100%, at which point you usmash KO.

You can chain grab starting at 0%. The timing is really tight if they DI behind you, but it is equally hard to get upthrow->upsmash on DI behind at 0 so you probably need to learn to hit that consistently anyways. 20XX hack pack gives a great way to practice this.

Assuming no interference from ledge/platforms, you can chain grab against any DI from 0 to ~50. After that it continues to work for a long time against DI to the side, but it stops working against neutral DI so you need to uptilt or something if they do that.

Shine -> bair covers all options? I always see top level players doing that but the commentators never explain why they do that. I'm not even sure if I can properly execute that.

Marth can do a lot of things to mix up his recovery and covering everything is really hard and subtle, but doing invincible ledge hop shine->bair is a good place to start. It won't cover everything but it covers the most obvious things while leaving you fairly safe.

As far as execution, it isn't too hard if you choose the right inputs. You should press down to let go of the ledge, then b to shine, then up to jump, then back on the cstick to bair.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thanks EWC. I was going to write something about grab and usmash having the same frame so the grab should work at 0% too, but I wasnt sure of the details. Usmash has more range so i figured it covered the away DI where grab couldn't.

I also forgot about the no-DI escape which starts around 60%. Thanks for that.

Great info!

 

[EWC]

The added range of upsmash does make it a bit easier to hit upthrow upsmash if they DI in front of you, since you can walk forward a bit instead of needing to dash, but if they DI behind you then you need to hit the same dash input for either upsmash or grab.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Can't you just turn -> usmash or turn+walk -> usmash?

Honestly it comes up so rarely: if I get a grab at 0%, they never seem to DI it. I've never had someone DI behind me, but I'd probably just techchase regrab if I couldn't follow up