Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Rocketpowerchill]

shinegrab is so disrespectful
grimiest move in the game

 

[shadrach kabango]

It's definitely a lot lower than 83%

that's not very convincing. intuitively i agree with scotu because i seem to recall fox getting CC dsmashed by peach above your 53% barometer.

 

[unknown522]

I said around 63%.

I'll test it again whenever I find my disc I guess

 

[omgwtfToph]

anybody know the frame data for shine --> turnaround --> grab?

turnaround only adds 1 frame, right?

Asking for frame data about stuff like this is useless because human hands can't do frame perfect shinegrabs/multishines anyway (read: TAS can do them really, really, really fast).

 

[PB&J]

News just in, Javi might go to Evo

 

[omgwtfToph]

I hope he knows the registration deadline is in two days.

 

[PB&J]

he does know,he said he might need help for registration but he will let me know tomorrow

 

[shadrach kabango]

Asking for frame data about stuff like this is useless because human hands can't do frame perfect shinegrabs/multishines anyway (read: TAS can do them really, really, really fast).

speak for yourself. it may be useless for you but not for me. i don't put any limits on my capabilities. to know what's possible you must know the boundaries of the framework in which you are working in.

reading through this thread from the beginning, one thing that is mindnumbingly clear: everyone who said 'X is useless' was wrong every single time. 'moonwalk is useless.' 'double shine is useless.' 'sticky walk is useless.' the competitors within the metagame had tremendously inaccurate prediction skills for what the future of the metagame held (and holds). maybe you're just uncreative and undisciplined. maybe you're just a victim of your limiting beliefs.

 

[noobird]

lol he didn't say that shine turnaround grab is useless he said that asking about the exact frame data for it is useless since humans can't execute perfectly anyway. that obviously doesn't mean the frame data is actually useless but you missed the point of his post and attacked him for no reason

on the topic of shinegrab, why is it that falcos seem to implement this a lot more than fox when fox's grab game is a lot better

 

[Jim Morrison]

Cause Fox players are noobs.

 

[KP17]

the turnaround has to be inputted after hitlag and lasts 1 frame, thats pretty much all you need to know

 

[shadrach kabango]

the turnaround has to be inputted after hitlag and lasts 1 frame, thats pretty much all you need to know

thanks. so you have to wait x amount of frames for hitlag before you turnaround and grab? that's why the timing is different from a forward shine grab? okay then: how many frames is hitlag on shine? =P

 

[EWC]

the turnaround has to be inputted after hitlag and lasts 1 frame, thats pretty much all you need to know

This is wrong. The turnaround takes 3 frames.

thanks. so you have to wait x amount of frames for hitlag before you turnaround and grab? that's why the timing is different from a forward shine grab? okay then: how many frames is hitlag on shine? =P

Hitlag is 3 frames if you hit an opponent. I think it's 4 if you hit a shield but I am not sure. I will test it to check.

Edit: Nevermind, it's also 3 frames on shield.

 

[omgwtfToph]

speak for yourself. it may be useless for you but not for me. i don't put any limits on my capabilities. to know what's possible you must know the boundaries of the framework in which you are working in.

reading through this thread from the beginning, one thing that is mindnumbingly clear: everyone who said 'X is useless' was wrong every single time. 'moonwalk is useless.' 'double shine is useless.' 'sticky walk is useless.' the competitors within the metagame had tremendously inaccurate prediction skills for what the future of the metagame held (and holds). maybe you're just uncreative and undisciplined. maybe you're just a victim of your limiting beliefs.

There's a difference between dismissing a given technique as useless and dismissing a given thought process as useless. I'm doing the latter. Worrying about how theoretically fast you can input a shine-turnaround-grab is counterproductive because human beings can't do them "too fast." (Same goes for perfect multishines. People always underestimate just how fast TAS-controlled Fox can multishine lol)

 

[BTmoney]

The way I look at situations like this is that it allows you to know when your stuff should or shouldn't work assuming equal frame imperfection on both players.

(I.e you dair on shield and want to follow up with a shine but before the shine comes out, you get hit by something idiotic like Falcon's upB OOS, which is way too slow. Frame data lets you know that shine should have beat it [came out first] and you're doing it too slow. That's it.)

That's a very general example but if someone wants to know frames, tell them or don't say anything IMO. Not to be rude to you Toph but he has every right to ask. And it is practical, in some sense. It's like asking for frame data on OOS options, even if you do your aerial or whatever OOS imperfectly, one option is going to come out sooner than another. That's practical.

 

[EWC]

Even if frame perfect actions are an idealization out of reach of human players, it's still useful to know exactly what that ideal looks like in order to better approximate it.

Also, knowing frame data is useful for practicing in a couple of ways. It makes it easier to pinpoint why you are messing up and fix the problem. It also gives you a good way of estimating in advance how difficult various things are, after a while you will should be able to recognize how hard it is to hit frame windows of various sizes and so on.

 

[genkaku]

is hitlag ever different when hitting a shield vs a person? I've heard conflicting reports even though it seems the same to me.

 

[Bones0]

on the topic of shinegrab, why is it that falcos seem to implement this a lot more than fox when fox's grab game is a lot better

Falco's shine is better on block. I think he can actually shine grab without the opponent doing anything, but maybe the opponent can buffer spotdodge to avoid it, I forget.

There's a difference between dismissing a given technique as useless and dismissing a given thought process as useless. I'm doing the latter. Worrying about how theoretically fast you can input a shine-turnaround-grab is counterproductive because human beings can't do them "too fast." (Same goes for perfect multishines. People always underestimate just how fast TAS-controlled Fox can multishine lol)

You can definitely input a shine turnaround grab too fast... That's the main reason most people mess it up, actually. They input the turnaround before hitlag ends and get stuck in their shine.

 

[EWC]

is hitlag ever different when hitting a shield vs a person? I've heard conflicting reports even though it seems the same to me.

I was under the impression that shields had more hitlag in general. I just tested a bunch of moves though, and it seems like they always have the same hitlag against shields as when hitting normally.

Actually I think I know where this bit of misinformation originated. It's because people used to recommend practicing shield pressure with the starman, which does give more hitlag (it's really noticeable). I guess at some point people started assuming that there was a hitlag difference, even though the actual reason for using the starman was just to get a conveniently invincible stationary target.

 

[Xyzz]

You can definitely input a shine turnaround grab too fast... That's the main reason most people mess it up, actually. They input the turnaround before hitlag ends and get stuck in their shine.

I even know somebody who can input the second shine in a double shine on air way too fast. That guy is an idiot :D (but cool )

Even if frame perfect actions are an idealization out of reach of human players, it's still useful to know exactly what that ideal looks like in order to better approximate it.

Keep in mind that "assuming equal frame inperfection" assumes equal conditions, which is simply not true all the times. When all I have to do is hit a to shield grab (or buffer roll for instant perfection lol) and you need to do a shine turnaround grab, I have a way easier time, and will probably be closer to perfection.

 

[Strong Badam]

is hitlag ever different when hitting a shield vs a person? I've heard conflicting reports even though it seems the same to me.

no

 

[unknown522]

that's not very convincing. intuitively i agree with scotu because i seem to recall fox getting CC dsmashed by peach above your 53% barometer.

Alright, I tested it and I was wrong. It knocks her over at 78%. I guess I was thinking of b-air, which is 67%

 

[EWC]

Keep in mind that "assuming equal frame inperfection" assumes equal conditions, which is simply not true all the times. When all I have to do is hit a to shield grab (or buffer roll for instant perfection lol) and you need to do a shine turnaround grab, I have a way easier time, and will probably be closer to perfection.

This is definitely an important point to keep in mind. And indeed, if a frame perfect shine turnaround grab happened to come out just as fast as a frame perfect shield grab, I wouldn't think "I can beat him if I go faster" but rather "I have to accumulate a smaller total error across 3 separate inputs than his error on one, or else I get grabbed. I better not try this unless I have him conditioned to hold his shield up".

It's still useful to know exactly how much margin of error you have on something before it becomes unsafe, or how much your opponent has to hesitate for you to get away with something.

 

[Xyzz]

Well, you should still mostly go by "what works". Knowing the theory is nice and all, but reality has people doing double shine > wd down > repeat on shields and easily getting away with it.

Admittedly, I know tons of useless frame stuff, because I think it's interesting... but you really have to know your limitations. E.g. I know that with Peach I can theoretically do fair > grab on shield and I'll catch his roll. I'll neverever try that in a match, though (I do obviously use fair > grab, just not to catch rolls). If I expect him to roll after fair and still want to grab him, I'll probably jab > grab him, which theory says doesn't work at all, because I don't even have any frame advantage after the jab anymore, but in practice it plays out just fine.
So yeah, I suppose if it's mostly curiosity and learning how perfect you need to be, that's fine. But absolutely, definitely always make sure that you check back where reality contradicts super theory bros.

 

[shadrach kabango]

There's a difference between dismissing a given technique as useless and dismissing a given thought process as useless.

is there? i don't think so. we'll agree to disagree.

Alright, I tested it and I was wrong. It knocks her over at 78%. I guess I was thinking of b-air, which is 67%

thanks . may i ask how you tested it?

This is wrong. The turnaround takes 3 frames.

Hitlag is 3 frames if you hit an opponent. I think it's 4 if you hit a shield but I am not sure. I will test it to check.

Edit: Nevermind, it's also 3 frames on shield.

woah. grab comes out on frame 7, right? so shine, wait 3 frames for hitlag, turnaround and wait 3 frames, then grab (7 frameS) for a total of 13 frames? shine turnaround grab really takes 13 frames?

The way I look at situations like this is that it allows you to know when your stuff should or shouldn't work assuming equal frame imperfection on both players.

(I.e you dair on shield and want to follow up with a shine but before the shine comes out, you get hit by something idiotic like Falcon's upB OOS, which is way too slow. Frame data lets you know that shine should have beat it [came out first] and you're doing it too slow. That's it.)

That's a very general example but if someone wants to know frames, tell them or don't say anything IMO. Not to be rude to you Toph but he has every right to ask. And it is practical, in some sense. It's like asking for frame data on OOS options, even if you do your aerial or whatever OOS imperfectly, one option is going to come out sooner than another. That's practical.

QFT

Even if frame perfect actions are an idealization out of reach of human players, it's still useful to know exactly what that ideal looks like in order to better approximate it.

Also, knowing frame data is useful for practicing in a couple of ways. It makes it easier to pinpoint why you are messing up and fix the problem. It also gives you a good way of estimating in advance how difficult various things are, after a while you will should be able to recognize how hard it is to hit frame windows of various sizes and so on.

QFT

And while to many/most people I'm probably some random scrub, I know Toph (we're not close friends but we've met in person and known each other for 2-3 years by now) and I implicitly expect a higher degree of intellectual discourse than 'el oh el that's wrong.' Lose the snark and bring the objectivity and facts, 'cause I don't even accept your hypothesis, and I have oodles of evidence to prove that it's specious at best and flat-out wrong at worst.

You can definitely input a shine turnaround grab too fast... That's the main reason most people mess it up, actually. They input the turnaround before hitlag ends and get stuck in their shine.

Exactly why I asked. Zhu's told me the trouble with shine turnaround is that there's a delay on it that is tricky because you're so trained to acting asap out of shine in every other situation.

Well, you should still mostly go by "what works". Knowing the theory is nice and all, but reality has people doing double shine > wd down > repeat on shields and easily getting away with it.

Admittedly, I know tons of useless frame stuff, because I think it's interesting... but you really have to know your limitations. E.g. I know that with Peach I can theoretically do fair > grab on shield and I'll catch his roll. I'll neverever try that in a match, though (I do obviously use fair > grab, just not to catch rolls). If I expect him to roll after fair and still want to grab him, I'll probably jab > grab him, which theory says doesn't work at all, because I don't even have any frame advantage after the jab anymore, but in practice it plays out just fine.

Catch his roll? I was just reading the frame data on Peach's fair to grab and this is what I got:

According to SuperDoodleMan's frame data, Peach's fresh fair will hit for fifteen frames of shieldstun and seven frames of hitlag. That means you gain eight frames. Assuming you float cancel it and land immediately after the frame you hit it, you get four frames of landing lag and so you have a net advantage of four frames.


Peach's grab comes out on frame seven, which means they have three frames to respond. Most spot dodges are invincible on frame two, so they can spot dodge to avoid the grab, but they can't do anything else (not even shine out of shield)

Then someone responds and says, 'you can also roll out of it,' but they don't specify what frame the roll is active. In any case this would also apply directly to what Xyzz is saying re equal conditions. You are required to be perfect in multiple links; all he has to do is be perfect on one game-assisted (buffering) response.

So yeah, I suppose if it's mostly curiosity and learning how perfect you need to be, that's fine. But absolutely, definitely always make sure that you check back where reality contradicts super theory bros.

For me, I don't mind taking the presumed short-term hit to my gameplay in order to master the long-term ramifications. I don't play this game to win; I play to get better.

That is where I disagree with everyone else's (presumed) rationale. This is a competitive atmosphere with a bunch of men (who tend to be ruled by ego much more than woman). Few lack the temerity to sacrifice the rewards of 'winning' (which, in the grand scheme of things, means nothing) in order to learn (which, in the grand scheme of things, means slightly more than nothing). And the ironic part is that is that (only?) by taking that short-term hit in changing your perspective of the game is by far (imo) the most effective way to reach your long-term goal.

 

[Bones0]

woah. grab comes out on frame 7, right? so shine, wait 3 frames for hitlag, turnaround and wait 3 frames, then grab (7 frameS) for a total of 13 frames? shine turnaround grab really takes 13 frames?

Well you also left out the second and third frame of shine before turning around (after hitlag) and because you have to JC grab, it's going to take at least 8 frames.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Falco's shine is better on block. I think he can actually shine grab without the opponent doing anything, but maybe the opponent can buffer spotdodge to avoid it, I forget.



You can definitely input a shine turnaround grab too fast... That's the main reason most people mess it up, actually. They input the turnaround before hitlag ends and get stuck in their shine.

This last part in incorrect. Hit lag doesn't really stop the turn around. What messes you up is trying to jump during the turn around, which you can't. Same thing as trying to do a turn around jc grab and doing the jump too fast; you'll cancel the turn around and it'll **** up. I still don't get why people jc grab when turning around lol.

 

[debaser]

muscle memory is a ***** sometimes

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shine turn around grab?

Start with 1 for shine, +2 requisite frames needed before you enter the JCable stage (reflector), +2 for turning around, +1 for the jump squat you're canceling, +7 for the final grab. Plus whatever hitlag comes out to.

Its frame data for stun advantage is basically whatever shine-grab is, but then you -2 it because of the turn around.

 

[EWC]

Well, you should still mostly go by "what works". Knowing the theory is nice and all, but reality has people doing double shine > wd down > repeat on shields and easily getting away with it.

Right. I'm not advocating anything other than "do what works" in practice. I just like knowing exactly what conditions are necessary for something to work. This includes not just the in-game situation, but also your and your opponents level of precision as well as your and your opponents decision making process.

Admittedly, I know tons of useless frame stuff, because I think it's interesting... but you really have to know your limitations. E.g. I know that with Peach I can theoretically do fair > grab on shield and I'll catch his roll. I'll neverever try that in a match, though (I do obviously use fair > grab, just not to catch rolls). If I expect him to roll after fair and still want to grab him, I'll probably jab > grab him, which theory says doesn't work at all, because I don't even have any frame advantage after the jab anymore, but in practice it plays out just fine.

Sure. This is mostly a fun intellectual exercise for me anyways.

So yeah, I suppose if it's mostly curiosity and learning how perfect you need to be, that's fine. But absolutely, definitely always make sure that you check back where reality contradicts super theory bros.

I absolutely agree. I'd like to add though, that if reality contradicts super theory bros, then you should try to figure out where your model failed so that your super theory bros can make better predictions in the future.

 

[Bones0]

This last part in incorrect. Hit lag doesn't really stop the turn around. What messes you up is trying to jump during the turn around, which you can't. Same thing as trying to do a turn around jc grab and doing the jump too fast; you'll cancel the turn around and it'll **** up. I still don't get why people jc grab when turning around lol.

I think you are right about getting stuck in shine because of jumping during the turnaround, but wouldn't you also be incapable of turning around because of hitlag, or does the turnaround buffer? As far as why people do it, it's probably because they are used to regular shine-grab speed, so they don't compensate for the turnaround. Idk, doesn't seem that surprising to me.

 

[EWC]

I think you are right about getting stuck in shine because of jumping during the turnaround, but wouldn't you also be incapable of turning around because of hitlag, or does the turnaround buffer? As far as why people do it, it's probably because they are used to regular shine-grab speed, so they don't compensate for the turnaround. Idk, doesn't seem that surprising to me.

Hitlag delays the turnaround by 3 frames. This isn't likely to come up directly, since holding the direction you want to turn it will do so on the first frame so will never to eat your turnaround input as long as you don't let go of the control stick.

It does mean that the earliest possible timing for jumping out of shine turnaround is 3 frames slower if you hit someone than if not, which means you need to delay your JC grab accordingly. Similarly, an empty shine turnaround grab (ie you don't hit anything) is three frames slower than an normal shine-grab.

 

[unknown522]

thanks . may i ask how you tested it?

- training mode
- 2 controllers
- Make P2 hold down
- set to human
- set the percent
- n-air

I also killed myself after each n-air so that it wouldn't have stale moves

 

[BTmoney]

Just a simple question.
What are all your thoughts on the Puff vs Fox MU?
I've heard anywhere from slightly in Puff's favor to like 70-30 Fox.

I believe patient/camping Fox ***** this MU but any other type of Fox goes even or even possibly loses this.
This is after playing like 2 hours of my Puff vs Fox. Imperfect Puff beats imperfect Fox imo.

 

[Pengie]

Just a simple question.
What are all your thoughts on the Puff vs Fox MU?
I've heard anywhere from slightly in Puff's favor to like 70-30 Fox.

I believe patient/camping Fox ***** this MU but any other type of Fox goes even or even possibly loses this.
This is after playing like 2 hours of my Puff vs Fox. Imperfect Puff beats imperfect Fox imo.

Hugely in Fox's advantage even if fox doesn't camp imo just look at Mango or ColBol against Hbox; every now and then they'll back off but Fox can force puff into some really bad situations by being proactive. Of course if Fox is being derpy aggressively he'll get **** on but that happens against any character, not just puff. One of the things that help fox in the matchup are are running into shield and WDing out of shield in response to whatever they do which can either set up great positining or leave you safe if you don't feel comfortable with the situation. Other than that staying grounded vs her when she's close and ccing stuff like her falling bair at low percents opens up more opportunities to get grabs that you can use to kill/exploit positional advantage.

On the other hand you can just run away and make her life hell but then you tend to give the other player more chances to get an opening so that can back fire, but as long as you're aware about puff's options relative to where she is to you and play accordingly she gets **** on pretty badly.

 

[BTmoney]

On the other hand you can just run away and make her life hell but then you tend to give the other player more chances to get an opening so that can back fire, but as long as you're aware about puff's options relative to where she is to you and play accordingly she gets **** on pretty badly.

Well yeah I play (and now recently main) both characters, I think it's a really interesting MU from both sides, comparable to Fox vs. Peach.
I think Fox whoops peach pretty hard but every mistake you make is so pertinent to the point where it goes from a dominating MU in Fox's favor to a MU that becomes very hard.

Is that something people can agree with; Fox vs. Peach is without a doubt in Fox's favor but it is still a very hard MU? Or is that just me.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Personally, I think it's close to even if not even. The punishment heavily favors her, and even when she gets hit, Fox has to be extremely careful about it because she can hit you just because you thought you had a good hit and confirmed it(fair and balanced :D). He is still Fox, so he can work an extremely strong movement/platform game and attack her at angles where she can't counter attack/has trouble defending from, and although his combos on her are kind of limited (however, it feels like uptilt is still underutilized vs her), he can still outposition her in a lot of instances because he's Fox.

This is just my personal take on it.

 

[shadrach kabango]

- training mode
- 2 controllers
- Make P2 hold down
- set to human
- set the percent
- n-air

I also killed myself after each n-air so that it wouldn't have stale moves

Very nice!

I am 99% sure the difference between yours and SCOTU's is that SCOTU was determing a "true" CC (you know, like those "perfect" CCs or whatever).

 

[unknown522]

maybe. I dunno

 

[Apasher]

http://www.twitch.tv/slayertokey/b/423628045?t=121m25s This Marth in particular has been giving me the toughest time throughout the smashfest I went to last night. Critique? (Watch all 4 matches before critiquing, please.)

Things that I'm already aware of: getting back on the stage (should be using shine-waveland more), and the fact that I'm awful at teching with Fox.